/ NEW ARTICLE: 10 Quick Tips - Enjoy your Sport Climbing Holiday

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Top climber Katherine Schirrmacher takes us a through a few short tips on how to get the most out of our sport climbing holiday.

These brief nuggets of information are accompanied by stunning photographs from her recent trip to Geyikbayiri, Turkey.

Browse the images, gain some tips and get inspired!

Read more: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1619
Nic on 06 Feb 2009
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Wouldn't this have been better titled "10 Quick Ads for Lovetoclimb" ?
Michael Ryan - on 06 Feb 2009
In reply to Nic:
> (In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC)
>
> Wouldn't this have been better titled "10 Quick Ads for Lovetoclimb" ?

Thanks for your article Katherine , some wise word there.

I hope your business does well.

Must get out to Turkey.

Mick

MelH - on 06 Feb 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I went on this coaching holiday last year and I have to say Antalya is the best place I have ever climbed.

It was hot, the food was fantastic, and you were two seconds from some of the most amazing routes I have ever climbed.

Steve and Katherine are great and the coaching was really useful, so I would recommend the trip or Antalya if you just want to go somewhere new with amazing climbing in the sun!
biscuit - on 07 Feb 2009
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

I am sure that the coaching holiday is top notch and the coaching is great but why is this an article ?

It's an advert isn't it ?

In papers and magazine they often have 'promotional features' that look like articles but are actually ads - and they say so at the top so everyone knows where they stand.

I know web based media is different but this may be a point to consider. I wanted to read an article not an ad.
Enty - on 07 Feb 2009
Thanks for the article Katherine. I too hope your business does well. If this article helps - good.

Shame some people don't like us small businesses to have a chance. You are climbing in the sun and trying to make a living out of it but my guess is that you'll never have a Ferrari out of it.

Keep it up.

Craig
biscuit - on 07 Feb 2009
In reply to Enty:
>
> Shame some people don't like us small businesses to have a chance.


If that was at me you've got me completely wrong.

Of course i want people to succeed. I'm self-employed myself so i know what it is to scratch around for work.

My point wasn't the content it was how it was portrayed.

This is an advert thinly disguised as an article. Are you telling me that the media savvy UKC crew haven't noticed that every quick tip has a reference to the excellent way that they do that very thing on their coaching holidays and a big picture of their company logo at the top ?

If they want to advertise their excellent coaching holidays - and i am genuinely sure that they are - then do so. What about a news press release to say that they are running these holidays. A review from clients experience as an article would be good. Both to look at whether coaching holidays are worthwhile ( i personally think they must be ) and this one in particular.

I have read Katherines' articles before, and Steve's, and found them to be interesting + informative. This was very basic and didn't really contain anything groundbreaking.

If UKC are trying to give some people who have made the choice to make a living out of climbing a leg up then that's cool. But i guess if they gave free advertising out for one they'd have to do it for all and that doesn't make good business sense.
Paz - on 11 Feb 2009
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

On the whole very good advice. I would qualify that UK winters just feel special (probably because they're so often shit, other wise you'd take them for granted like Sport Climbing Holidays and they wouldn't be special).

But.. November 2007 was ace, far from being depressing. Now I know everyone's not always doing 3 different things at the same moment in time, but with regards to what route do I choose, don't suggestions 4) and 8) contradict themselves? November's don't have a great reputation I grant you, but neither do Octobers, and what time of year did Johnny Dawes climb Indian Face? I for one am glad sport climbing wasn't as established back then to distract/tempt him, whatever Redhead said. Don't give up hope on Novembers.
Scarab - on 11 Feb 2009
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Seems like a great place.

Instead of giving us top ten pointless tips why not just write about the place itself.
James Oswald - on 11 Feb 2009
In reply to Serpico:
There are several articles on here about the area.
And a few on planetfear too.
James
Michael Ryan - on 11 Feb 2009
In reply to Scarab:
> (In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC)
>
> Seems like a great place.
>
> Instead of giving us top ten pointless tips why not just write about the place itself.


http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=134

More destinations: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/older.html?category=2

Simon - on 11 Feb 2009
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:


I'm left a little hollow by this article - its clearly a promo which is very leading in its nature without really being that great. Some might say shameless - but what I would question is that surely you have better in your "too be published" stock than this - unless you are getting some monies out of it?

I always want business's to do well - especially in this climate - but its how UKC are selling it to the masses that is why you are getting the raised eyebrows I think chaps...

Si
tobyfk - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

> 1 Search out the sun .... Places like Antalya are pretty much a dead cert ... Geyikbayiri is south facing and a great winter destination ... Snatching some winter sun can feel great, but a few destinations do have prolonged rainy periods. Mid winter somewhere like Mallorca can be pretty damp!

I was at Geyikbayiri in March 2007: a great place, but at the time very cold and raining intermittently. Of course single observations don't say much about the trend but all the statistics I have seen suggest that there is nothing special about the eastern Med vs the western Med in weather terms. In fact if anything, the eastern Med is colder/ wetter.

See for example, Alicante
http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weather.php3?s=6380&refer=&units=metric
and Malaga
http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weather.php3?s=28480&refer=&units=metric

compared to Antalya (a few km away from Geyikbayiri)
http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weather.php3?s=371&refer=&units=metric

IMO genuine "dead-cert" winter sun is best looked for in SE Asia, the Arabian Peninsula or the southern hemisphere.

Serpico on 12 Feb 2009 - 82-68-232-91.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk
In reply to james oswald:
> (In reply to Serpico)...

Wasn't me...


Nic on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to biscuit:

I suspect the snide remarks were aimed at me (as I was the first to reply). I'll ignore Mick's patronising comments, but the "some people don't like small businesses to have a chance" comment is utter Jackson. I am all for this sort of thing, and have been on a few similar trips myself (in fact, a few days before this article, I got an email from Katherine *legitimately* advertising the Turkey holiday, and I thought, hmm, looks good, and filed it away for future consideration).

As others have now pointed out, it is the advert thinly disguised an an article that has got people's backs up.
Enty - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Nic:
> (In reply to biscuit)
>
>
> As others have now pointed out, it is the advert thinly disguised an an article that has got people's backs up.

Why does it and why should it get peoples backs up?
I don't understand how it can bother anyone at all.

I suppose those people not intelligent enough to sus it's really an advert could be pissed off later when the penny drops.


Enty

David Peters - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Dear Jack,

I have and elderly grandmother who through no fault of her own has lost all her teeth and who also has a craving for eggs, do you think you might persuade Katherine to proffer some top tips on how the toothless elderly may safely consume eggs ?
Chris the Tall - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
PlanetFear holidays were always an easy target for the cynics. "Work in IT, got no friends, come to Kalymnos and spend a week belaying a top climber". So it's inevitable that Love2Climb will get the similar flak - many climbers are very resistant to the notion of paying for anything.

Yes, the article reads far too like a an advert, but it does contain some good nuggets of advice. Try to overcome your cynicism and open your mind a bit - you can apply these principles to any climbing holidays.

I don't know about L2C, but PF had a pretty high return booking rate - most of those you went once went back again. They were good fun and your climbing did improve.
panyan - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Enty:

for someone who doesn't see that there is a conflict between advertising and editorial integrity you might want to reflect on whether insulting potential clients in your posts is really a good idea...

flaneur - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Enty:

> Why does it and why should it get peoples backs up?
> I don't understand how it can bother anyone at all.
>
> I suppose those people not intelligent enough to sus it's really an advert could be pissed off later when the penny drops.

If you can't understand why discovering 'content' turns out to be 'advertisement' gets a few people's back up then I suggest you go back to your Marketing 101. It's in the Articles section, the title reads like an article title. Comments like "people not intelligent enough" is not helping your case here at all. Both Katherine and UKC have misjudged this one a little.

Question for Alan/the editors: Were UKC paid for this?
ads.ukclimbing.com
Nic on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I think you're missing the point - with one (or two?) exceptions, posters are criticising UKC, not Katherine. As I said, I do actually quite fancy the trip, but I would rather that UKC separated the articles (which are usually quite good) from the advertising.
lummox - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to panyan: Lol !
Tyler - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Maybe UKC should refund everyone all the money they've spent on buying adverts disguised as articles. Oh hold on, no one's paid a penny and anyone who read it got what they came for - 10 tips on enjoying thier holiday! And let's not complain about wasted time, if anyone's time was that valuable they wouldn't be on here in the first place!
Enty - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to flaneur:

But this happens all the time in cycling. I advertise in cycling magazines and it cost me a fortune.
Articles appear all the time by people who've spent 10 minutes doing what we've been doing for 8 years. I don't let it upset me - you just try to stay one step ahead.
One thing I have learnt is you don't get anything if you don't ask. Well done Katherine I say for being one step ahead. The only thing her competitors should be upset about is not thinking of doing it first.

Enty
Chris the Tall - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Nic:
Is this an advert or an article ?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=341747&v=1

And if you read the comments, there's even one hapless punter who's suddenly realised what good value DMM krabs are !!

Sometimes things aren't black and white. I have to say that when I read KS's article my first reaction was "this is just an advert", but re-reading it, all the tips are valuable, and only maybe 3 of them are promoting the holiday.
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Who are you calling a hapless punter, you lanky twerp!


Chris the almost as Tall


;-)
Nic on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Only 3? My emphasis, but I read the following:

1. Geyikbayiri is south facing and a great winter destination that's why ***we've booked up for next November already***

2. Camping is available but on ***our trips*** we book out all the cute, wooden bungalows on the site.

3. Above is Andy on a lovely F4 literally two minutes walk from ***the camp in Turkey***

4 ***Luckily in Geyikbayiri*** there's pretty much every type of climbing available so it'll suit anyone.

7 She onsighted her first 6a and 6a+ on ***our holiday***

9 On ***our trips*** we always take a rest day, as much as anything to see something of the local area. We were recommended this top swimming spot ***local knowledge goes a long way***

10 ***For many coming on a climbing holiday with me and Steve*** and a group of strangers is daunting. But you always leave having made a whole new set of friends
Blue Straggler - on 12 Feb 2009
The discussion in this thread is very interesting.
I read the article and was thinking of sending the link to some friends with whom I am going on a sport climbing holiday in May, but something was holding me back from doing so. I realise now that it WAS actually the "advertorial" nature of the "article" that was subconsciously leaving a sour taste in the mouth, as it were.
The tips ARE good for us noobs who've not done a climbing holiday before, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating - it's been counterproductive and, as silly as it might sound, HAS slightly put me off love2climb.
A toned-down version with just a few reference to the love2climb trips, would have been fine with me, but it was being rammed down my throat. Fine if it were promo material on their own website, but as others have mentioned, it's a bit rich running it as an article.

Reminiscent of some experiences I've had with someone in a different field, with a commercial interest in that field, who's lost mine and others' custom and alienated some people from their field, by having an inability to make any communication without tagging a sales pitch onto the end.

I am not saying that this is what love2climb or UKC have set out to do here, but using the example to illustrate why people on this thread are complaining.
Blue Straggler - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Disclaimer to the above - I am sure that the article was submitted and published with the best and most earnest intentions; I am merely reporting what it looks like from the outside.
In reply to Blue Straggler: Have read the turkey article a while back and this has prompted me to think a bit more seriously about going there so I can stalk Steve McClure.

So in that aspect, it has had a benefit for this poster.
flaneur - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Enty:

TV, Radio, Mags. and the 'net are full of adverts puporting to be content. Chat show guests plugging their latest film/book/song, academics publicising their latest 'research'. It is an easy way for time and money strapped media to develop content: get someone else to do it for you. At least 50% of UKC articles are like this: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1336 (DMM selling carabiners), http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1188 (Andy K plugs his book). Why don't they attract the negative comments this article has?

There is an unwritten contract between reader and advertiser: if your advertisement is interesting and you're 'honest' that this is an advert we'll keep reading. There are no complaints about most of UKC's adverts pretending to be articles because they are interesting and they are transparently adverts. The problem with Katherine's article is that the content is not that interesting and it's not clear initially that this is an advert. We start reading thinking it's going to be a 'how to' guide and then the penny drops. The advertiser has broken the contract.

It's like a bloke who buys a drink for a woman who flirts with him but later tells him she is gay. He might have been very happy to buy her a drink if she had been excellent company and open about her sexuality. Instead, he thinks he's been taken for the wrong sort of ride.

Blue Straggler - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to flaneur:

Your points and analogies are excellent. I have no idea why Katherine's article has generated more steam than other similar advertorials. I'm commenting only because I don't actually read many UKC articles, but I did look at this one as it seemed pertinent to may.
Blue Straggler - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Blue Straggler:
> as it seemed pertinent to may.


Er...well I AM travelling with a Wedt Midlands crew :-)
Nic on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to flaneur:

Nicely put...but you may have blown it with your last paragraph - I hear the sound of worms rioting outside a recently opened can...
Michael Ryan - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Nic:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> I think you're missing the point - with one (or two?) exceptions, posters are criticising UKC, not Katherine. As I said, I do actually quite fancy the trip, but I would rather that UKC separated the articles (which are usually quite good) from the advertising.

Let me explain.

One of the questions for the application for an editorial position at an outdoor magazine recently was: How do you plan to reduce contributor costs?

Pick up a magazine these days and many are ghosts of their former selves; Trail is basically a walking guide and a gear catalogue, many front covers are adverts, not paid, but used to persuade advertisers to take out ad contracts.

Getting advertising to fund a media is a very hard work and involves more than here's some space, it costs this much, do you want it? I have to personally work hard everyday for UKC's advertisers to make sure they are getting value for money and that it is increasing their bottom line.

The line between editorial and advertising is increasingly blurred, we try hard to keep the two seperate and on the whole we succeed, but you will see some places on the site where it is blurred.

In 2008 editorially we published 182 feature articles, 22 features so far this year: plus Destination articles, FAQ's, around 50 news reports a month, gear reviews.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/older.html?category=1

If we had to pay the full rate for these, at old skool rates, we'd go bust. Media has changed, some we pay for (as well as paying Jack and Kevin we now how have a small articles budget which we have to be careful how to spend), some we get free, some we do deals in exchange for some advertising.

In this particular article there is some advice for strategies for a climbing trip; it won't be relevant to all and to many nothing in it will be new; but to some, especially new climbers there is some good advice there. Katherine did it in exchange for some pimpage of her small company. She documented good advice from a real trip to a great area. Thanks Katherine

It was one of several articles published the last couple of week, they include:

Toubkal and the Atlas Mountains, The Great Puffin Saga, Stop Press - An adventure on Lundy, What is it like to be caught in an Avalanche?, Winter Climbing Round-Up - The Big Freeze, "Dizzy Fingers" - El Capitan by Karen Darke, The Making of a Carabiner: a visit to DMM etc.... and 13 news items so far in February.

Most can read the Media these days and comprehend it, and also revel in deconstructing it,....and people LOVE commenting on articles and news, and that is appreciated.

But let me tell you something, this barrage of negativity has negative effect on people who write articles and even those who do newsworthy ascents.

So much so that some won't write articles or report their ascents as they get raked over the coals by all and sundry (the truth is a small number of posters) on the forums.

Think before you post.

Cheers,

Mick



Blue Straggler - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Thanks Mick for such a lucid response. Good points made from your side too, as many of us do forget that articles generally require a fee - and as you've so honestly mentioned in your post, in this specific case it is quite reasonably demonstrated that the contributor's "fee" is the "plug", in a way.

The negative comments on this thread (certainly my own) stemmed from an ignorance of the status quo.

I wonder if it's worth condensing the salient points in your post just above, and storing them on UKC, ready to have future dissenters pointed at it

I know a few years ago New Scientist started taking flak for what was deemed to be a "cheapening of values" by carrying adverts more akin to those in a Sunday supplement (mostly low-end "executive saloon" cars and expensive watches), their quite reasonably defence was the publication would fold without them. They still carry such advertising.
Michael Ryan - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Yes, I need to find the time to expand on what I wrote - and get someone to edit it.

Mick
in a wintery North Wales
Michael Ryan - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Nic:

Good point Nic. Usually we do have the advert at the bottom; banner, photo, bio and sometimes a banner in mid article, and keep the text 'clean'.

Will make sure we always do this.

Ta

Mick

BelleVedere on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

For personal preference it did come across a bit naff - but i did think it sounded like a nice venue - and being in the market for a climbing holiday i checked out the link (i probably wouldn't have read te article if it wasn't for this thread keep getting bumped) - shame they don't have out the week i'm looking for - but hey ho.
Enty - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to panyan:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> for someone who doesn't see that there is a conflict between advertising and editorial integrity you might want to reflect on whether insulting potential clients in your posts is really a good idea...


You are absolutely right. So sorry for upsetting anyone with my choice of words. I guess I sometimes find the negativity on this site overwhelming and it rubs off on me. It seems the default reaction on these forums is to have a go at Alan and Mick et al at the first opportunity.
This thread reminds me of a few years ago when a friend of mine won 980 grand on the football pools.
A few of us were absoloutely delighted for him - no more laying bricks.
The vast majority however were consumed by petty jealousy and couldn't wait to slag him off to all and sundry just because he'd done alright!

Back to the point of this argument - I always just assumed that that's how small businesses worked - mine does. I'll scratch your back and all that....
Still can't believe something like this can piss someone off.

Enty
ads.ukclimbing.com
Carless - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Enty:

> Still can't believe something like this can piss someone off.

Absolutely agree
but it seems that plenty of people like getting upset about something
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> "Work in IT, got no friends, come to Kalymnos and spend a week belaying a top climber".

My mates going on one of them, but he doesn't work in IT and at least I'm his mate. He may have a few others as well. ;-)

He also did the Splitter Camp in Indian Creek and came home a totally gnarly crack climbing fiend. Seems like money well spent!
ksjs - on 12 Feb 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: the 'article' is not what it says it is i.e. an article and it seems that some have questioned the value of what content there is. this is fair, these are forums.

what are you trying to say in your post - that people shouldnt criticise in case they scare potential contributors? if so this is wrong - look at some good articles on here (of which there are many) and see how many negative posts there are.

yes, the same people endlessly criticising, continuoulsy dissecting and never contributing is tiresome and often spoils good threads / clogs the forums but this shouldnt stop others from expressing their views.
MelH - on 13 Feb 2009
Wow - what a harsh audience.

It was a nice article with lovely photos and it was also an advert. Big deal. I'm sure UKC knew exactly what it was before it was posted.

It's cool to have opinions about stuff but Katherine is a lovely person and all of your negative comments must be having an effect on her. I personally think some of you should consider the consequences before you post stuff. And that is purely MY opinion.
In reply to MelH:

> It's cool to have opinions about stuff but Katherine is a lovely person and all of your negative comments must be having an effect on her. I personally think some of you should consider the consequences before you post stuff.

Has anyone been actually been mean to Katherine on this thread? If you write for publication some will like what you write and others won't, and on websites both have the chance to put forward their views. You have to be prepared for that.

The main moan is that the piece is an 'advertorial', rather than an article, but really that's an issue for Mick or Jack to address (as Mick has), not for Katherine.


MelH - on 13 Feb 2009
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to MelH)

> Has anyone been actually been mean to Katherine on this thread? If you write for publication some will like what you write and others won't, and on websites both have the chance to put forward their views. You have to be prepared for that.
>

I don't think anyone has been mean persay, and I do truly believe folk are entitled to their opinions, but I would be upset if I had written it and there was all this type of discussion. Maybe I'm just thin skinned though...
Michael Ryan - on 13 Feb 2009
In reply to JLS:

Hi JLS

I'm deleting your stupid posts. If you want to discuss conspiracy theories start a thread in The Pub.

I have that forum switched off so I don't have to put up with idiots.

Cheers,

Mick

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