In reply to neil the weak:
> (In reply to Byron Buck)
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> [...]
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> Top roping the route does not remove the danger element? The consequences of a headpointer falling off the crux of any route are exactly the same as if an onsighter does. It may seem like it is less likely to happen but the seriousness of the route has not changed, only the apparent likelihood of a fall.
Agreed; the consequences of failure are exactly the same whether headpointing or onsighting, but the likelihood (or, more to the point,
perceived likelihood) of failure is higher when onsighting, meaning that the route is harder.
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> Lets pretend we're in America for a moment. If you lead a 5.11c R/X after toproping it, does that mean you haven't climbed an R/X route?
I guess not, but the point is that the R/X bit will play less of a factor in the difficulty of the ascent when the route has been headpointed than when it is onsighted. The E grade is the overall difficulty of the climb and takes in to account this factor, and this becomes easier when you know that you can do the bold moves on the route, so how could the grade possibly stay the same with this knowledge?
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> Just because one route is more affected than another by knowing beta does not mean that the grading system is broken though. Nor does it mean that the grade of either route has changed because you have extra information.
I don't think it is broken at all, it just needs using correctly (i.e. only claimed when an onsight ascent has been made). John Arran's system of using "H" grades seems to be a logical way around this.
Of course the grade of the route changes if you have extra information; having this information makes the climb easier, so the grade surely
must change to reflect this (or use a different system when headpointing). The problem is in being able to quantify how much easier the beta has made the climb.
Having said all that, it's probably fine to say that you have climbed an E4-but-with-top-rope-practice-first, but there's no denying that it is easier than having onsighted it - and isn't this how we ended up with the whole debate in the first place?!
Byron