UKC

Who remembers when they where the "in" thing?

I was looking through some old photos of climbers tied in to a waist loop with the Tharbuck knot showing clearly.

I haven't used one for years. Doubt if I could even tie one now.

In reply to Trangia:

I do, from 1967-68 i.e. right up to the time belay plates first came in. The Tarbuck Knot was superb, and seemed fairly foolproof. I've still used it occasionally to make adjustable guylines for my camera tripod in a very strong wind (when there's a risk of the tripod being blown over).

In reply to Trangia:

http://www.knotpro.com/members/camping_knots_tarbuck_knot.htm

In reply to Trangia:

We used the Tarbuck Knot from early summer 1967 as standard for at least two years. I am fairly certain we were no longer using it by the summer of 1970, though I think, amazingly now, that we were still using gardening gloves and a waist belay rather than a Sticht plate. I'll have to look in my personal log books to see if there's any clue about that. Anyhow, here's my brother John using a Tarbuck Knot with a Hiatt D Screw and hemp waistline on the Main Wall of Cyrn Las in April 1969:

http://www.gordonstainforth.co.uk/images/MainWallApr69.jpg

In reply to Trangia: just had an imput from him indoors tarbuck only works well on hawserlaid rope not good on sheathed .... if thats any help
can be slid to tighten up belay

In reply to joan cooper:

Yes, that was a major factor. It worked superbly on a No.11 Viking nylon cablelaid rope, but nothing like as well on a sheathed Perlon rope. I'm sure we stopped using the Tarbuck knot as soon as we we'd acquired our first double (Perlon) rope in summer of 1969.

In reply to Joan and Gordon:

Yes, it's coming back to me now, that's why it went out when sheathed ropes were introduced. All my photos of people using the knot are with laid ropes.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Thats correct Gordon, we stoppped using the Tarbuck knot when perlon came in, suprisingly I don't remember any warning in the climbing press (such as it was then).
To Trangia, I also could not tie one now without a good reminder, but then again, there's no need to.

In reply to Al Evans:

That included the old monthly BMC Journal. It was smaller than modern climbing magazines - like a booklet - sort of A5 size. B & W photos and well produced. I remember the content being of generally high standard, and far less advertising. It often contained articles like the Tarbuck knot, and IIRC it introduced it to climbers, but like you I don't recall any further advice following the introduction of sheathed ropes

In reply to Trangia: Yep, thats where I read the article that tought me how to tie a Tarbuck knot.

In reply to Trangia:

Here's another Tarbuck Knot shot, also from April 1969 - my brother leading the Crescent Slab (2nd pitch) of Holly Tree Wall (VS) in Cwm Idwal. Note: we were wearing bendy hillwalking boots with vibram soles (I think Hawkins' Scafells).

http://www.gordonstainforth.co.uk/images/JleadingHollyTreeWall69.jpg

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Arrgh! What devils we were in them days...oi foind oi still run out yon rope wi'out thinkin' much about that there protection stuff...then oi 'as collywobbles sudden loike...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I still use it, mostly for adjustable guylines on tents. Saves the need for those metal sliders.

I also use it in emergency for dropping a rescue rope to someone. Tied ready for use with large loop the person can slip over themselves and then slide up snug.

In reply to potted shrimp:

I think we had about 6 nuts (4 hexes and 2 moacs) - John's carrying them clipped into his hemp waist line on his right side - and about 4 or 5 slings (about 2 of them were knotted tape, and the rest cable-laid, 'No. 3' rope slings with double fisherman's knots). It wasn't that we were deliberately carrying very little gear; it was just that that was more or less the 'state of the art' then! I know it's hard to believe now. No chalk, no belay plates (just waist belays), no harnesses.

In reply to sutty:

Yes, they're great for guy lines.

In reply to Trangia:
I met Ken Tarbuck once or twice. He was the cousin of our next door neighbour.
He was very proud of 'his' knot.
Sadly I think he died a few years ago.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I took this in the 1960s but didn't date it. I thought I took in in the early 60's but that looks like a Tarbuck knot? Which suggests the mid to late 60s?

http://picasaweb.google.com/home

In reply to Trangia:

That's just a link to Picasa, and not to your album.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

http://picasaweb.google.com/timbirch09/Desktop?authkey=Gv1sRgCP2yjrz-38Xz_g...

In reply to Trangia:

Yes, that certainly looks like a Tarbuck knot (too big to be anything else really).

Apparently Ken Tarbuck invented it in about 1952, but maybe it did not become well known until Blackshaw's book in 1965?

http://knots-guide.blogspot.com/2008/04/t.html

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I've trawled though my diaries and found the entry for First Pinnacle Rib . I did it with Barry on 31 August 1962, so it appears that we were using Tarbuck knots as far back as that. Interesting comment in the diary that the Yellow Slab pitch "seemed a bit hard"! The current guide book gives it 4b technical grade - that must be rare if not unique for a Diff?

In reply to Trangia:

I think the demise of the hemp waistline was another nail in its coffin, I remember trying to buy a hemp one in Bryan G Stokes and been told they were no longer available ( 1970ish) although they offered me a 20ft lengths of Viking No 1. I can't remember anyone using a nylon one.

I suppose once the waistline went so did the knot, I know perlon was becoming more popular at the time but I think it was the demise of the waistline which was the real reason for its fall from favour. Plenty of people were climbing on Viking cable ropes in the early 1970's ( single No 4, double No and even double No 2

I don't recall anyone using it with a harness or a tape swarmi,

In reply to Trangia:

Yes, I did it in April 1969 and remember being very surprised how hard it was in vibrams for a Hard Diff (very odd it's now gone down to Diff). My log book at the time says drily: 'Yellow Slab quite tricky'.

In reply to NYork:

I think you're right, because the whole thing about the Tarbuck was you adjusted the belay to get it tight, then turned round to face out, sliding the D-screw krab round to your back. Which you couldn't do with a harness. I think I may have carried on using it for a while with a harness, but what really killed it was the double rope made of perlon. And very shortly after double ropes the Sticht belay place came out and the whole style of belaying changed completely, including the way you tied in and set up the anchors.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

When you had a hemp waistline you used a waist belay, that would have melted a nylon one in a fall unless you were lucky.

Do you remember there only being Edelrid ropes in perlon at one time, then they had a fire, the price shot up and others entered the market.

In reply to sutty:

Yes, I vaguely remember a few people had nylon waistlines, but we always used hemp (20 feet) wrapped round about 7 or 8 times. And yes, the first perlon rope we had was Edeldrid. I'd forgotten about the fire.

In reply to sutty:

I remember that lovely smell of hemp waistline. The other place where we continued using a laid hemp climbing rope for a long time was on Southern Sandstone because IIRC it was believed that the fine granules of sand would damage nylon ones.

In reply to Trangia: I did in the 60s, Gogarth, Mousetrap, Rat Race, Concrete Chimney, and many more with two hemp waist lines c/w 2 steel karabiners & Tarbuck knots on Hawser laid ropes. I must be getting old, because I can't remember how to do the knot now. I did take some quite big falls, I suppose the Tarbuck did work, I'm still climbing!

<<The current guide book gives it 4b technical grade - that must be rare if not unique for a Diff?>>

The 1930's guidebook we were given by an 'old hand' for our first climbing trip to Wales in the early 70's had Super Direct on The Milestone Buttress as a 'Diff (quite hard for it's grade)'. I not only lead it in big boots with a 'rack' that (IIRC) contained a couple of No4 hawser laid slings, 2 Moacs, a Greg Acorn (?) and some Troll T chocks, but I then reversed the top pitch when my second couldn't follow.

We didn't tie on with Tarbuck knot, but did waist belay with gardening gloves at least until the mid seventies, despite seeing Klaus Swartz using a stitch plate on The Ben.

In reply to Tony the Blade:

Sorry to interrupt the old farts club, but the knots link you posted doesn't seem to be working for me. Anyone else got a picture of the knot so I can see what the nostalgia is about ? cheers. OK back to your cocoa and the good old days ......

In reply to GrahamD:

Not for me either, but Gordons link does;

http://knots-guide.blogspot.com/2008/04/t.html

OH FFS, there are two methods shown of finishing it off on the web. This next one is the method I have always used, never the other. Gordon etc, any comments?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TarbuckKnot.JPG

I think this one is wrong;
youtube.com/watch?v=xIwYKea_D1A&

In reply to sutty:

Yes, the second one is completely wrong, and possibly dangerous as a climbing knot. The final turn of a Tarbuck goes over the live rope and loops back under it i.e. the opposite way to the way he does it in the video.

Also, I'm sure we always used to put a half hitch near the end of the dead rope.

In reply to sutty:

PS. but it's probably OK for an adjustable guyline.
When I said half hitch I think I mean a simple overhand knot (forgetting my terminology!)

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

The last one (3rd, by my counting, not 2nd) is fine, though I'd bring the
end back on the other side of the part leading into the initial wraps.
It might be "wrong" as *the* Tarbuck knot, but it seems a better,
more secure way to tie off the end (the coils are the effective component).

That other knot-blog site OTOH has some mistakes; I think it's copying
one of the Budworth books (images & text), which e.g. got the wrong loading
of the Icicle Hitch.

*kN*