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I was having a wee look on the internet for information about EICA: Ratho and found that it is due to make a loss of £400,000 this year - which will be subsidised by the council. Bearing in mind that they are hosting a leg of the Euro's and the British Lead this year, the Worlds next year and no doubt others too, they have the highest proportion of the British Climbing Team based there (as far as I can work it out) - is it right to subsidise a climbing facility of this standard to this extent?
In reply to howfantastic: Yes. If the facilities are not there then the sport (any sport) suffers....I thinking swimming, cycling, team sports etc. Also as its council owned, that whats the problem with the council subsedising?
In reply to howfantastic:
The place is so OTT in terms of design and materials that it was never going to make a profit.
It has a lot of plus points; nice and airy and light in the day, powerful hand dryers in the bogs, it's near to the motorways so easy to get to for many (but not Edinburgh inhabitants) but it also has shortcomings.
It is cold in the winter, the route grades are wildly inconsistent, the staff are fairly miserable (not at all unusual, it must be said) and a lot of the steep atear are no use to the majority of punters. It should really be moved to Sheffield....
It's nice of the cooncil to subsidise the place but it has to come out of the stretched budget and I wonder how long this can last? Someone has done a good job persuading the council that this is a good way of spending money.
As for the British team, do they enhance the world of climbing for the majority of punters? No.
The Climbing Works proves that high quality facilities can thrive in the real world.
The place is so OTT in terms of design and materials that it was never going to make a profit.
It has a lot of plus points; nice and airy and light in the day, powerful hand dryers in the bogs, it's near to the motorways so easy to get to for many (but not Edinburgh inhabitants) but it also has shortcomings.
It is cold in the winter, the route grades are wildly inconsistent, the staff are fairly miserable (not at all unusual, it must be said) and a lot of the steep atear are no use to the majority of punters. It should really be moved to Sheffield....
It's nice of the cooncil to subsidise the place but it has to come out of the stretched budget and I wonder how long this can last? Someone has done a good job persuading the council that this is a good way of spending money.
As for the British team, do they enhance the world of climbing for the majority of punters? No.
The Climbing Works proves that high quality facilities can thrive in the real world.
In reply to howfantastic:
I'm not an Edinburgh resident, so a subsidy of £400,000 per year doesn't sound too bad! That might be comparable subsidy (per user) to other local authority subsidised facilities such as a swimming pool or a cycling track.
On my first visit there was one other person in the huge plush changing room - everywhere else there's a modest changing room crowded with people so it was pretty clear the original business plan wouldn't work.
I'm not an Edinburgh resident, so a subsidy of £400,000 per year doesn't sound too bad! That might be comparable subsidy (per user) to other local authority subsidised facilities such as a swimming pool or a cycling track.
On my first visit there was one other person in the huge plush changing room - everywhere else there's a modest changing room crowded with people so it was pretty clear the original business plan wouldn't work.
In reply to howfantastic:
I will put in my own 2 cents... I think it is worth it. If climbing was (and hopefully it will be) an olympic sport, I doubt anybody would question the funding. Also, have a look at other council owned sports facilities - in Edinburgh Meadowbank and the Commy pool both get subsidised, but nobody bats an eye. I was talking to someone from the MCofS who reckons that the income (in terms of visitor spending) will well outstrip the subsidy, so in real terms the centre will at the very least break even.
I think it is right to have great facilities for all, and yes EICA is a bit OTT, but it is that OTT that makes it special IMO. Walls need to be unique, and I think we have enough old churches and old warehouses!
I will put in my own 2 cents... I think it is worth it. If climbing was (and hopefully it will be) an olympic sport, I doubt anybody would question the funding. Also, have a look at other council owned sports facilities - in Edinburgh Meadowbank and the Commy pool both get subsidised, but nobody bats an eye. I was talking to someone from the MCofS who reckons that the income (in terms of visitor spending) will well outstrip the subsidy, so in real terms the centre will at the very least break even.
I think it is right to have great facilities for all, and yes EICA is a bit OTT, but it is that OTT that makes it special IMO. Walls need to be unique, and I think we have enough old churches and old warehouses!
In reply to howfantastic:
Oh, and my point about the British climbing team - give any sports people the best facilities and you get the best sportsmen/women
Oh, and my point about the British climbing team - give any sports people the best facilities and you get the best sportsmen/women
In reply to howfantastic:
Couldn't have said it better myself.
The Ratho staff are outstanding, not just in their running of a truly huge facility but in their business intelligence; they work incredibly hard to find ways to generate income without compromising the center's main goal of providing the best indoor climbing possible. That work is bearing fruit already - remember that the centre's only been open a couple of years and it would be prefectly mormal for any business of that size to run at a loss for many years before delivering a profit.
I'm truly amazed to see anyone say that the staff are grumpy though. Get to know them a little and they're a cracking bunch. They're always up for a laugh and there are some excellent climbers amongst them who are always delighted to give pointers.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
The Ratho staff are outstanding, not just in their running of a truly huge facility but in their business intelligence; they work incredibly hard to find ways to generate income without compromising the center's main goal of providing the best indoor climbing possible. That work is bearing fruit already - remember that the centre's only been open a couple of years and it would be prefectly mormal for any business of that size to run at a loss for many years before delivering a profit.
I'm truly amazed to see anyone say that the staff are grumpy though. Get to know them a little and they're a cracking bunch. They're always up for a laugh and there are some excellent climbers amongst them who are always delighted to give pointers.
In reply to niggle:
For me, as a semi Edinburgh resident, it’s a special occasion place not a place I'd go to train regularly. I do question the commercial decision to build two new specialist walls, when on in the evenings the op ropes and lead walls are so busy. Could they at least put some other routes on the speed wall and take them off for competitions if necessary?
I know the place is good but hot aches + £8.35 + 30 min journey just makes be go to the warmth of Alien Rock.
Should Edinburgh residents’ subsidies it? I dunno, it would be a great shame if it was to shut again but as had already been said it is not well positioned for the people of Edinburgh and it should be able to run as a commercially viable business.
For me, as a semi Edinburgh resident, it’s a special occasion place not a place I'd go to train regularly. I do question the commercial decision to build two new specialist walls, when on in the evenings the op ropes and lead walls are so busy. Could they at least put some other routes on the speed wall and take them off for competitions if necessary?
I know the place is good but hot aches + £8.35 + 30 min journey just makes be go to the warmth of Alien Rock.
Should Edinburgh residents’ subsidies it? I dunno, it would be a great shame if it was to shut again but as had already been said it is not well positioned for the people of Edinburgh and it should be able to run as a commercially viable business.
In reply to IanC:
Ditto but I live in Broxburn - it's only 15 minutes by bike on the canal and I'd still rather go to alien.
> (In reply to niggle)
> For me, as a semi Edinburgh resident, it’s a special occasion place not a place I'd go to train regularly.
> For me, as a semi Edinburgh resident, it’s a special occasion place not a place I'd go to train regularly.
Ditto but I live in Broxburn - it's only 15 minutes by bike on the canal and I'd still rather go to alien.
i'm in newhaven, a stone's throw (with a good tailwind) from alien.
can't be arsed cycling for an hour to go to ratho.
i don't mind my council tax subsidising it either as millions get wasted on fact finding missions to tahiti and on the trams anyway.
can't be arsed cycling for an hour to go to ratho.
i don't mind my council tax subsidising it either as millions get wasted on fact finding missions to tahiti and on the trams anyway.
In reply to howfantastic: No - whoever allowed it to be built in the first place must have been mental. It is a complete folly. Unfortunately it is not built in Abu Dabi or but Edinburgh where money is not flowing free.
Imagine the Civil Engineers meeting :
- ok we'll build a structure with 2 sides made by the in situ rock of a quarry in Scotland. It will seep water and not actually be used for anything (The rock that is). Who thinks this is a good idea ?
Having said that - amazing place to climb - shame they ruined the quarry though. It only needed to be built in a shed.
Imagine the Civil Engineers meeting :
- ok we'll build a structure with 2 sides made by the in situ rock of a quarry in Scotland. It will seep water and not actually be used for anything (The rock that is). Who thinks this is a good idea ?
Having said that - amazing place to climb - shame they ruined the quarry though. It only needed to be built in a shed.
In reply to howfantastic:
The people who created ratho were architecturally brilliant but a little lacking in business sense.
However, now that it's there I think it's a fantastic facility and well worth the effort to get there. There's the odd climb that's inconsistently graded but so what, a climb feels as hard as it does and you shouldn't pay too much attention to numbers.
I think the staff are very friendly, and very professional and I think they do a fantastic job
The people who created ratho were architecturally brilliant but a little lacking in business sense.
However, now that it's there I think it's a fantastic facility and well worth the effort to get there. There's the odd climb that's inconsistently graded but so what, a climb feels as hard as it does and you shouldn't pay too much attention to numbers.
I think the staff are very friendly, and very professional and I think they do a fantastic job
In reply to IanC:
I guess that depends what you're training for.
If you're training for very short, very crowded routes which are reachy rather than hard then yes, Alien would be your best bet.
If however you're training for long continental-style sport routes or competition climbing, Ratho is probably one of the best venues in the world.
> it’s a special occasion place not a place I'd go to train regularly.
I guess that depends what you're training for.
If you're training for very short, very crowded routes which are reachy rather than hard then yes, Alien would be your best bet.
If however you're training for long continental-style sport routes or competition climbing, Ratho is probably one of the best venues in the world.
In reply to niggle:
ditto niggle, especially about the reachy nature of the other venue's routes
To be fair it very much depends who's settings there, 2 individuals are particularly poor in settling for reach over imagination
ditto niggle, especially about the reachy nature of the other venue's routes
To be fair it very much depends who's settings there, 2 individuals are particularly poor in settling for reach over imagination
In reply to howfantastic:
Yes it is worth it! As someone who lives within easy reach, but outside the Edinburgh Council Tax area, I am quite happy to pay about £4 per session (with monthly membership) without contributing to the £400,000 yearly cost.....
To have locally possibly the world's best training facility, with consistently superb route setting, never having to queue for routes, and friendly staff, I am quite happy to put up with a little bit of grade "drift". Also, the cold in winter is rarely a problem if you wrap up between routes (in fact I am convinced that the enforced necessity for a thorough warm up is excellent for injury prevention!).
Only criticism is that the new bouldering wall is rubbish and nowhere near as good as the wall that was there before and got demolished.
Yes it is worth it! As someone who lives within easy reach, but outside the Edinburgh Council Tax area, I am quite happy to pay about £4 per session (with monthly membership) without contributing to the £400,000 yearly cost.....
To have locally possibly the world's best training facility, with consistently superb route setting, never having to queue for routes, and friendly staff, I am quite happy to put up with a little bit of grade "drift". Also, the cold in winter is rarely a problem if you wrap up between routes (in fact I am convinced that the enforced necessity for a thorough warm up is excellent for injury prevention!).
Only criticism is that the new bouldering wall is rubbish and nowhere near as good as the wall that was there before and got demolished.
In reply to niggle:
Maybe so, but that's applicable to a pretty small proportion of the climbing population. As a training facility for the elite, I'm sure it's fantastic.
One might reasonably argue that the funding for such facilities should be national rather than local.
For the average punter, it could have been *so* much better for a budget that big. Which is a shame, but what's done is done.
...and to suggest that Alien's routes are only hard because they are reachy is way off the mark (IMHO as an average sized bloke).
> If however you're training for long continental-style sport routes or competition climbing, Ratho is probably one of the best venues in the world.
Maybe so, but that's applicable to a pretty small proportion of the climbing population. As a training facility for the elite, I'm sure it's fantastic.
One might reasonably argue that the funding for such facilities should be national rather than local.
For the average punter, it could have been *so* much better for a budget that big. Which is a shame, but what's done is done.
...and to suggest that Alien's routes are only hard because they are reachy is way off the mark (IMHO as an average sized bloke).
In reply to howfantastic: Ratho's an awesome place to climb, and puts anything in London to shame. Try to get there whenever i'm working in Edinburgh. Sure the council wastes more then that on other crap.
In reply to howfantastic:
Yes it is worth it.
Ratho is a world class athletics facility up there with the best of any facilities in any sport.
It is no surprise that Ratho is now producing world class athletes.
But more than that Ratho is FULL of people who would not normally go to a climbing centre, the kind of people put off by old churches that smell of feet.
Bruce
Yes it is worth it.
Ratho is a world class athletics facility up there with the best of any facilities in any sport.
It is no surprise that Ratho is now producing world class athletes.
But more than that Ratho is FULL of people who would not normally go to a climbing centre, the kind of people put off by old churches that smell of feet.
Bruce
In reply to howfantastic:
I don't go to Ratho very often because it is difficult to get to by public transport from central Edinburgh, while Alien is easy to get to buy public transport from central Edinburgh. Simple as.
Ratho is BIG and I do find getting on the bigger lead routes is very different from leading at Alien, which is a good thing. (though I haven't been to Ratho for ages and ages).
I don't go to Ratho very often because it is difficult to get to by public transport from central Edinburgh, while Alien is easy to get to buy public transport from central Edinburgh. Simple as.
Ratho is BIG and I do find getting on the bigger lead routes is very different from leading at Alien, which is a good thing. (though I haven't been to Ratho for ages and ages).
In reply to Mark Bull:
Almost everyone I know at Ratho has climbed overseas at least once in the last year in fact it seems very normal for Ratho's regulars to get outside and send good grades. What exactly do you imagine the rest of the climbing population's training for - the 8 meter micro routes Alien's so "famous" for? I'd say that's a significantly smaller proportion!
Ah yes, if only Rab Anderson had asked for your advice before he began it all would have been prefect.
True, sometimes they're hard because the holds are filthy.
> that's applicable to a pretty small proportion of the climbing population.
Almost everyone I know at Ratho has climbed overseas at least once in the last year in fact it seems very normal for Ratho's regulars to get outside and send good grades. What exactly do you imagine the rest of the climbing population's training for - the 8 meter micro routes Alien's so "famous" for? I'd say that's a significantly smaller proportion!
> For the average punter, it could have been *so* much better for a budget that big.
Ah yes, if only Rab Anderson had asked for your advice before he began it all would have been prefect.
> to suggest that Alien's routes are only hard because they are reachy is way off the mark (IMHO as an average sized bloke).
True, sometimes they're hard because the holds are filthy.
In reply to niggle:
I'm not sure having a discussion with you is going to be very productive, but....
Err, the fantastic wealth of trad routes this country is justly famous for?
And which is what a lot of folk do week in, week out (as opposed to the odd bolt clipping holiday).
Or maybe I'm just old-fashioned and out-of-touch and sport routes and bouldering are the only cool things things to do these days.
No, not at all. I'm not trying to uphold Alien as the best climbing facility ever. That would be silly, and you know it, I suspect.
But if Ratho's really so good, how come Alien Rock is so overcrowded? Because the Edinburgh climbing population is stupid? I don't think so.
I'm not sure having a discussion with you is going to be very productive, but....
> What exactly do you imagine the rest of the climbing population's training for
Err, the fantastic wealth of trad routes this country is justly famous for?
And which is what a lot of folk do week in, week out (as opposed to the odd bolt clipping holiday).
Or maybe I'm just old-fashioned and out-of-touch and sport routes and bouldering are the only cool things things to do these days.
> the 8 meter micro routes Alien's so "famous" for? I'd say that's a significantly smaller proportion!
No, not at all. I'm not trying to uphold Alien as the best climbing facility ever. That would be silly, and you know it, I suspect.
But if Ratho's really so good, how come Alien Rock is so overcrowded? Because the Edinburgh climbing population is stupid? I don't think so.
In reply to Mark Bull:
I was chatting with a pal of mine about just this issue earlier this afternoon. He climbs harder than me but he agreed that there is at least one route setter at Alien whose routes always seem to involve looonng reaches and much strenuous heaving. We actively seek out and avoid his routes. It's not all of them, though: they do have other route setters who set interesting routes which are both a physical and a mental challenge but which don't require you to have the physique of a gibbon to complete them.
> to suggest that Alien's routes are only hard because they are reachy is way off the mark (IMHO as an average sized bloke).
I was chatting with a pal of mine about just this issue earlier this afternoon. He climbs harder than me but he agreed that there is at least one route setter at Alien whose routes always seem to involve looonng reaches and much strenuous heaving. We actively seek out and avoid his routes. It's not all of them, though: they do have other route setters who set interesting routes which are both a physical and a mental challenge but which don't require you to have the physique of a gibbon to complete them.
In reply to howfantastic:
As an Edinburgh resident and Ratho user, it is a lot better value than the current tram feck-up. It was originally a badly conceived and executed projected at the start, imho, but they have recovered somewhat - great climbers do not necessarily make great designers/planners e.t.c.. Yes the walls could do with more punter routes. The building as a whole could do with better utilisation, but we've got it now, it's getting better and it has a long way to go (Hadrians wall was more fun with belay stances, able to place reale pro, traverses, e.t.c.), but I think it needs our support. Besides, if it did close, Alien would be rather crowded
As an Edinburgh resident and Ratho user, it is a lot better value than the current tram feck-up. It was originally a badly conceived and executed projected at the start, imho, but they have recovered somewhat - great climbers do not necessarily make great designers/planners e.t.c.. Yes the walls could do with more punter routes. The building as a whole could do with better utilisation, but we've got it now, it's getting better and it has a long way to go (Hadrians wall was more fun with belay stances, able to place reale pro, traverses, e.t.c.), but I think it needs our support. Besides, if it did close, Alien would be rather crowded
In reply to Martin W:
Fair enough: I must have been lucky enough not to encountered very many of those. It's poor route setting, and should be discouraged!
Fair enough: I must have been lucky enough not to encountered very many of those. It's poor route setting, and should be discouraged!
In reply to dunc56:
The vast majority of the area occupied by the climbing arena was full of quarry spoil before the development started. The structure takes in only a very few of the previously established climbs at the far left-hand end of the quarry face that was exposed before construction started. Unfortunately one of those was Godzilla which was undoubtedly a compelling line and, according to those who have climbed it, a route worth aspiring to.
> shame they ruined the quarry
The vast majority of the area occupied by the climbing arena was full of quarry spoil before the development started. The structure takes in only a very few of the previously established climbs at the far left-hand end of the quarry face that was exposed before construction started. Unfortunately one of those was Godzilla which was undoubtedly a compelling line and, according to those who have climbed it, a route worth aspiring to.
In reply to Mark Bull:
And are classic Scottish trad routes very short like the routes at alien or long like the routes at Ratho?
Because Alien Rock is very, very small.
The lead routes at Alien aren't usually crowded though, which says a lot in iteself.
> Err, the fantastic wealth of trad routes this country is justly famous for?
And are classic Scottish trad routes very short like the routes at alien or long like the routes at Ratho?
> But if Ratho's really so good, how come Alien Rock is so overcrowded?
Because Alien Rock is very, very small.
The lead routes at Alien aren't usually crowded though, which says a lot in iteself.
In reply to howfantastic:
A few years back I was offered a job in Livingstone.
Didn't take it in the end as my missus couldn't find a job in Scotland
but if single I would have done so & the availibility of Ratho was a not insignificant factor in that decision (Scottish winters are long & dark).
So the council has to think about how much a facility like this attracts money into the area.
A few years back I was offered a job in Livingstone.
Didn't take it in the end as my missus couldn't find a job in Scotland
but if single I would have done so & the availibility of Ratho was a not insignificant factor in that decision (Scottish winters are long & dark).
So the council has to think about how much a facility like this attracts money into the area.
In reply to niggle:
Ah, I see where you are coming from: "Ratho is perfect because it's big". We're going to have to agree to differ on that, I'm afraid!
> And are classic Scottish trad routes very short like the routes at alien or long like the routes at Ratho?
> Because Alien Rock is very, very small.
Ah, I see where you are coming from: "Ratho is perfect because it's big". We're going to have to agree to differ on that, I'm afraid!
In reply to i.munro:
Such as the £250,000 that the American Team reckoned they spent in Edinburgh and the surrounding area during the 2004 World Youth Championships.
> So the council has to think about how much a facility like this attracts money into the area.
Such as the £250,000 that the American Team reckoned they spent in Edinburgh and the surrounding area during the 2004 World Youth Championships.
In reply to The Climbing Works: Did you take them drinking Graeme?
In reply to Mark Bull:
Ratho's not quite perfect, which is why I didn't say it was. But in terms of floor space, wall space, wall height, variety of angles, variety of heights, quantity of routes, variety of routes and range of grades, Alien Rock just can't compete and never could.
I mean apart from being rubbish compared to Ratho in every respect that matters to climbers, Alien's a really excellent alternative.
> Ah, I see where you are coming from: "Ratho is perfect because it's big".
Ratho's not quite perfect, which is why I didn't say it was. But in terms of floor space, wall space, wall height, variety of angles, variety of heights, quantity of routes, variety of routes and range of grades, Alien Rock just can't compete and never could.
I mean apart from being rubbish compared to Ratho in every respect that matters to climbers, Alien's a really excellent alternative.
In reply to Mark Bull:
I like Alien, but I was down for the first time in ages last night and I have to say that the grading there has gone wild since I used to climb there regularly. I swear, routes that would have got 6b/+ a couple of years ago seem to now be marked as 5+...
>
> But if Ratho's really so good, how come Alien Rock is so overcrowded? Because the Edinburgh climbing population is stupid? I don't think so.
> But if Ratho's really so good, how come Alien Rock is so overcrowded? Because the Edinburgh climbing population is stupid? I don't think so.
I like Alien, but I was down for the first time in ages last night and I have to say that the grading there has gone wild since I used to climb there regularly. I swear, routes that would have got 6b/+ a couple of years ago seem to now be marked as 5+...
In reply to johnSD:
Grading at Alien's always been a joke. If you ever want a really good laugh, have a look at how the Alien 2 bouldering grades are supposed to translate to real world grades!
Grading at Alien's always been a joke. If you ever want a really good laugh, have a look at how the Alien 2 bouldering grades are supposed to translate to real world grades!
In reply to niggle:
I don't know - I found it fairly consistent when I climbed regularly in the past, finding that I could "onsight" the top ropes at a given grade for roughly the same effort, at least as far as 6b+. Not sure how they related to grades at other venues though. The grading at Alien 2 always mystified me, but I've never had the strength to enjoy a bouldering session without getting quickly pumped, so haven't had to worry about them for a looong time.
No, I think my problem with the grading last night was that I have got both fat and weak since I last climbed, which add together to make a whole world of pain...
> (In reply to johnSD)
>
> Grading at Alien's always been a joke. If you ever want a really good laugh, have a look at how the Alien 2 bouldering grades are supposed to translate to real world grades!
>
> Grading at Alien's always been a joke. If you ever want a really good laugh, have a look at how the Alien 2 bouldering grades are supposed to translate to real world grades!
I don't know - I found it fairly consistent when I climbed regularly in the past, finding that I could "onsight" the top ropes at a given grade for roughly the same effort, at least as far as 6b+. Not sure how they related to grades at other venues though. The grading at Alien 2 always mystified me, but I've never had the strength to enjoy a bouldering session without getting quickly pumped, so haven't had to worry about them for a looong time.
No, I think my problem with the grading last night was that I have got both fat and weak since I last climbed, which add together to make a whole world of pain...
In reply to johnSD:
I think it mystifies the setters too, leading to some wild guessing!
> The grading at Alien 2 always mystified me
I think it mystifies the setters too, leading to some wild guessing!
In reply to howfantastic:
£400K shortfall?
If they increased the entrance fee by £1 they'd cover that. Hopefully though they'll find another way of generating a little extra income or cutting costs.
The main thing is that the place stays open and that the quarry remains open to climbers. It would be a disaster if the council ended up selling the quarry off to raise funds to cover the losses from the climbing wall. After all, climbing walls whether they be big, small, too hot or too cold are just training for the real thing.
My opinion of Ratho? There should be more lead walls that are vertical or just off vertical to simulate real climbing. They should bolt the real rock walls. The clips are too close together, they interfere with the flow of the climbing and don't replicate the spacing you get on real sports routes. Apart from that it's fine.
£400K shortfall?
If they increased the entrance fee by £1 they'd cover that. Hopefully though they'll find another way of generating a little extra income or cutting costs.
The main thing is that the place stays open and that the quarry remains open to climbers. It would be a disaster if the council ended up selling the quarry off to raise funds to cover the losses from the climbing wall. After all, climbing walls whether they be big, small, too hot or too cold are just training for the real thing.
My opinion of Ratho? There should be more lead walls that are vertical or just off vertical to simulate real climbing. They should bolt the real rock walls. The clips are too close together, they interfere with the flow of the climbing and don't replicate the spacing you get on real sports routes. Apart from that it's fine.
In reply to Removed User:
Just skip clips when you're not too gripped, or even bettet when you are.... but make sure the staff are not looking! Try seeing how few clips you dare make on a route you are familiar with, or better, one you are not!
> The clips are too close together, they interfere with the flow of the climbing and don't replicate the spacing you get on real sports routes. Apart from that it's fine.
Just skip clips when you're not too gripped, or even bettet when you are.... but make sure the staff are not looking! Try seeing how few clips you dare make on a route you are familiar with, or better, one you are not!
In reply to Removed User:
Just skip clips when you're not too gripped, or even bettet when you are.... but make sure the staff are not looking! Try seeing how few clips you dare make on a route you are familiar with, or better, one you are not!
> The clips are too close together, they interfere with the flow of the climbing and don't replicate the spacing you get on real sports routes. Apart from that it's fine.
Just skip clips when you're not too gripped, or even bettet when you are.... but make sure the staff are not looking! Try seeing how few clips you dare make on a route you are familiar with, or better, one you are not!
Comparing Ratho to Alien Rock is pretty pointless task.
It's not just a different league.....it's a whole different planet!
It's not just a different league.....it's a whole different planet!
In reply to Fraser:
Alien Rock.
Small.
Warm.
Social, or crowded depending on how you look at it.
Good for Top Roping, s**t for leading.
Easy to get to on public transport.
Ratho
Huuuuge.
Wildly varying temperatures (it’s an outdoor crag).
Spacious or lonely depending on how you look at it.
Best leading wall in the world, pretty dang average for top roping.
Pain in the ass to access.
Someone earlier asked why alien is busier –it’s points four and five on each list I think.
The biggest thing (I think) Ratho could do to increase its popularity, asides from teleporting into the town centre, would be to offer more and better top rope lines (are you reading this ratho staff?) because that’s what better than 50% of the punters climb and they’re not being catered for as well as they could be. The leading is amazing for me personally but every time I’m in the arena and look over at the crowded top rope walls I feel sorry that all the folk on them don’t get to play on any of the big / steeper stuff.
Why they don’t just get off their arse and learn to lead I don’t know but the fact is they don’t and they are the biggest chunk of users the arena has. If you want to make your wall busier, cater to the majority of the folk who use it!
> Comparing Ratho to Alien Rock is pretty pointless task.
But lets try anyway….Alien Rock.
Small.
Warm.
Social, or crowded depending on how you look at it.
Good for Top Roping, s**t for leading.
Easy to get to on public transport.
Ratho
Huuuuge.
Wildly varying temperatures (it’s an outdoor crag).
Spacious or lonely depending on how you look at it.
Best leading wall in the world, pretty dang average for top roping.
Pain in the ass to access.
Someone earlier asked why alien is busier –it’s points four and five on each list I think.
The biggest thing (I think) Ratho could do to increase its popularity, asides from teleporting into the town centre, would be to offer more and better top rope lines (are you reading this ratho staff?) because that’s what better than 50% of the punters climb and they’re not being catered for as well as they could be. The leading is amazing for me personally but every time I’m in the arena and look over at the crowded top rope walls I feel sorry that all the folk on them don’t get to play on any of the big / steeper stuff.
Why they don’t just get off their arse and learn to lead I don’t know but the fact is they don’t and they are the biggest chunk of users the arena has. If you want to make your wall busier, cater to the majority of the folk who use it!
In reply to neil the weak:
But is Alien really "busier"? Certainly more folk per square meter, but in terms of numbers of climbers per week, do you not think Ratho has more? It wold be interesting to have some hard facts/stats on the two venues.
> Someone earlier asked why alien is busier –it’s points four and five on each list I think.
But is Alien really "busier"? Certainly more folk per square meter, but in terms of numbers of climbers per week, do you not think Ratho has more? It wold be interesting to have some hard facts/stats on the two venues.
In reply to neil the weak:
I'm not so sure, you know.
When I used to use the top ropes a lot there were some really good routes....esp to the right of the main tower (5+ to 6b). There's also TRing on the right end of the main wall and on the new slab.
The other thing is that the main walls are just too steep and long for bumblies (like me!) and we/they are frightened of making an erse of ourselves.
There are very few vertical or slightly o/hanging leads in the place. I'd actually like a couple of lead lines on to the right of the tower...the wall is at a really good angle all the way. I'm never happy though
I'm pretty disappointed that so much space is taken up with the new speed wall but I guess that is an international comp requirement.
If they really want to make the place busier then the Council HAVE to get the transport sorted. That is a shameful situation.
All in all though...it IS an amazing place.
Bruce
I'm not so sure, you know.
When I used to use the top ropes a lot there were some really good routes....esp to the right of the main tower (5+ to 6b). There's also TRing on the right end of the main wall and on the new slab.
The other thing is that the main walls are just too steep and long for bumblies (like me!) and we/they are frightened of making an erse of ourselves.
There are very few vertical or slightly o/hanging leads in the place. I'd actually like a couple of lead lines on to the right of the tower...the wall is at a really good angle all the way. I'm never happy though
I'm pretty disappointed that so much space is taken up with the new speed wall but I guess that is an international comp requirement.
If they really want to make the place busier then the Council HAVE to get the transport sorted. That is a shameful situation.
All in all though...it IS an amazing place.
Bruce
In reply to Fraser:
You could be right I guess - probably depends on the temperature too, ratho gets noticably quieter when it's baltic. Maybe Alien just seems busier because everyones packed in. What I was kind of getting at was that there are good things about both places anyways. For my climbing, ratho is the best wall in the world but depending on what you like I think there are things to recommend either venue.
> But is Alien really "busier"? Certainly more folk per square meter, but in terms of numbers of climbers per week, do you not think Ratho has more?
You could be right I guess - probably depends on the temperature too, ratho gets noticably quieter when it's baltic. Maybe Alien just seems busier because everyones packed in. What I was kind of getting at was that there are good things about both places anyways. For my climbing, ratho is the best wall in the world but depending on what you like I think there are things to recommend either venue.
In reply to Fraser:
The guy at Ratho I was talking to said that at the weekend they have about 100 kids in their kids clubs and average about 2000 - 4000 people over the weekend. Like has been mentioned, I am sure the weather plays its part.
I do quite hate comparing ratho to alien rock. I can understand why people choose one or the other. Personally I wouldn't touch alien for a few reasons, but I can understand why it appeals to some.
> (In reply to neil the weak)
>
> [...]
>
> But is Alien really "busier"? Certainly more folk per square meter, but in terms of numbers of climbers per week, do you not think Ratho has more? It wold be interesting to have some hard facts/stats on the two venues.
>
> [...]
>
> But is Alien really "busier"? Certainly more folk per square meter, but in terms of numbers of climbers per week, do you not think Ratho has more? It wold be interesting to have some hard facts/stats on the two venues.
The guy at Ratho I was talking to said that at the weekend they have about 100 kids in their kids clubs and average about 2000 - 4000 people over the weekend. Like has been mentioned, I am sure the weather plays its part.
I do quite hate comparing ratho to alien rock. I can understand why people choose one or the other. Personally I wouldn't touch alien for a few reasons, but I can understand why it appeals to some.
In reply to niggle:
I'm struggling to remember that bit. Because it's not true.
It opened in December 2003 so you're looking at almost six years. So there goes that excuse. It always did have the distinctive whiff of a white elephant.
> remember that the centre's only been open a couple of years and it would be prefectly mormal for any business of that size to run at a loss for many years before delivering a profit.
I'm struggling to remember that bit. Because it's not true.
It opened in December 2003 so you're looking at almost six years. So there goes that excuse. It always did have the distinctive whiff of a white elephant.
In reply to Removed User:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Economics-Dummies-Sean-Masaki-Flynn/dp/0764557262
Try starting with the clever bit on the elastic relationship between price and demand. For homework, try asking yourself if price will affect demand more or less if a. The service in question is already widely regarded in the market as overpriced b. there's a recession on.
The place reminds me more and more of the nearby RBS HQ. An overpriced, overblown work of fin-de-siecle hubris that has rather predictably ended up as a dead weight on the increasingly withered public purse.
> £400K shortfall?
>
> If they increased the entrance fee by £1 they'd cover that.
>
> If they increased the entrance fee by £1 they'd cover that.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Economics-Dummies-Sean-Masaki-Flynn/dp/0764557262
Try starting with the clever bit on the elastic relationship between price and demand. For homework, try asking yourself if price will affect demand more or less if a. The service in question is already widely regarded in the market as overpriced b. there's a recession on.
The place reminds me more and more of the nearby RBS HQ. An overpriced, overblown work of fin-de-siecle hubris that has rather predictably ended up as a dead weight on the increasingly withered public purse.
In reply to Alien 8:
However, Edinburgh City Council took over the business more recently than 2003 and in doing so, presumably inherited the debts of the original development company, so your argument doesn't quite ring true either.
I agree that the original concept grew limbs and horns, in an attempt to justify the Lottery Funding it was seeking. Like so many similar projects though, it was overly optimistic in its projected numbers and consequently failed - the business plan was fundamentally flawed. IMO, it should have been a a much simpler, lower-spec building, with a primary objective. The diversification has not yet helped much, but time will tell whether or not this has been a good thing. I for one, hope it succeeds. Its much too good a facility to see go by the wayside and the top climbers using the place and many super-strong youngsters coming through the ranks are surely testament to its worth.
>
> It opened in December 2003 so you're looking at almost six years. So there goes that excuse. It always did have the distinctive whiff of a white elephant.
> It opened in December 2003 so you're looking at almost six years. So there goes that excuse. It always did have the distinctive whiff of a white elephant.
However, Edinburgh City Council took over the business more recently than 2003 and in doing so, presumably inherited the debts of the original development company, so your argument doesn't quite ring true either.
I agree that the original concept grew limbs and horns, in an attempt to justify the Lottery Funding it was seeking. Like so many similar projects though, it was overly optimistic in its projected numbers and consequently failed - the business plan was fundamentally flawed. IMO, it should have been a a much simpler, lower-spec building, with a primary objective. The diversification has not yet helped much, but time will tell whether or not this has been a good thing. I for one, hope it succeeds. Its much too good a facility to see go by the wayside and the top climbers using the place and many super-strong youngsters coming through the ranks are surely testament to its worth.
In reply to neil the weak:
Sorry, missed this post earlier. You're right there - each to their own. I don't enjoy Ratho when it's completely baltic but usually persevere, even driving through from Glasgow mid-week to train there. I used to go to Alien once a week and really had a good time there but for me now, the choice of venue is a no-brainer.
> For my climbing, ratho is the best wall in the world but depending on what you like I think there are things to recommend either venue.
Sorry, missed this post earlier. You're right there - each to their own. I don't enjoy Ratho when it's completely baltic but usually persevere, even driving through from Glasgow mid-week to train there. I used to go to Alien once a week and really had a good time there but for me now, the choice of venue is a no-brainer.
In reply to Alien 8: If your name does suggest where you work/ have affinity too, I would not be surprised that you dislike ratho. I remember, back in the old days when I frequented Alien (as I lived about a 5 min walk away), it was just after Ratho re-opened, and the pelter's the alien staff were giving the place. I remember one event in particular, when an Alien instructor told a young American lady to 'not bother going' to Ratho because 'it wasn't as big as they make out' and that the instructor 'questioned the safety of their walls'... I think some alien instructors may have been a little ashamed of their size
I suppose we have to remember that the council took over an incomplete project, and as such have continued doing a lot of work on site. I would assume that as time progressed 'snagging' costs would become less?
I suppose we have to remember that the council took over an incomplete project, and as such have continued doing a lot of work on site. I would assume that as time progressed 'snagging' costs would become less?
In reply to The Climbing Works:
I'd love to see those figures substantiated. That is a huge sum of money. What did they do, buy a house?
> (In reply to i.munro)
> [...]
>
> Such as the £250,000 that the American Team reckoned they spent in Edinburgh and the surrounding area during the 2004 World Youth Championships.
> [...]
>
> Such as the £250,000 that the American Team reckoned they spent in Edinburgh and the surrounding area during the 2004 World Youth Championships.
I'd love to see those figures substantiated. That is a huge sum of money. What did they do, buy a house?
They visited Macdonalds at Newbridge for breakfast!
I don't see why everyone gets so worked up about this! Just use what you want and surely if you want to become the best climber you can you would use both (and the plesance occasionally) to get the opportunity to do long and short routes, try different setters styles and use the steeper walls say of alien 2, work on stamina at Ratho, work on strength at the short Alien routes (which if I am not mistaken are of a similar length to lots of grit routes) etc etc etc etc (could go on forever!).
I must say I go to Alien a lot more but simply because Ratho is a pain to get to and costs so much more, particularly when you add travelling costs (I am a student in the centre of Edinburgh). If I had the option I would try and use both and try and mix everything up as much as possible although I admit there would be a slight bias to Alien 2 pretty much because of the community feel.
Just climb people!
I must say I go to Alien a lot more but simply because Ratho is a pain to get to and costs so much more, particularly when you add travelling costs (I am a student in the centre of Edinburgh). If I had the option I would try and use both and try and mix everything up as much as possible although I admit there would be a slight bias to Alien 2 pretty much because of the community feel.
Just climb people!
In reply to howfantastic:
Many people are critisizing the location and access to Ratho as it can be a bit of a pain to get to from Edinburgh but you have to remember that the location makes it accesable to people from areas like Glasgow, Stirling, Dundee etc. I regularly drive through from Glasgow to Ratho and know many people who drive through from similar places.
Many people are critisizing the location and access to Ratho as it can be a bit of a pain to get to from Edinburgh but you have to remember that the location makes it accesable to people from areas like Glasgow, Stirling, Dundee etc. I regularly drive through from Glasgow to Ratho and know many people who drive through from similar places.
In reply to howfantastic:
Apparently, part of the reason EICA are losing so much money is due to a complication with the surrounding land. The land is owned by a local farmer. Ratho have no room for their sewage and have their sewage tank buried on the adjoining farmers land.
This little arrangement is costing them a lot of money as the farmer well knows that they have little choice and is fleecing them for thousands in rental. Even if they were to build a pipeline to remove the sewage and waste water it would still have to pass his land. EICA have offered to buy the land but the farmer knows he's onto to a good thing and won't sell.
Until they can sort it there is a stupid amount of money being lost this way. I do not know the exact figure per annum but it should be available somewhere through the FOIA.
Apparently, part of the reason EICA are losing so much money is due to a complication with the surrounding land. The land is owned by a local farmer. Ratho have no room for their sewage and have their sewage tank buried on the adjoining farmers land.
This little arrangement is costing them a lot of money as the farmer well knows that they have little choice and is fleecing them for thousands in rental. Even if they were to build a pipeline to remove the sewage and waste water it would still have to pass his land. EICA have offered to buy the land but the farmer knows he's onto to a good thing and won't sell.
Until they can sort it there is a stupid amount of money being lost this way. I do not know the exact figure per annum but it should be available somewhere through the FOIA.
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:
The estimated spend by competitors and their family for the whole comp was about a million squid. Think of 50+ officials 350 competitors all with their mum and dad and maybe a sibling or two staying in hotels for a 5 day competition, eating out, staying on to do tourists things, hiring cars etc visiting tourist attractions. That's a few hundred quid each per head which for a family holiday is pretty normal spend.
There are a number of comps coming up such as a leg of the european youth series in September and a few others, all of which do bring alot of revenue to the area...
The estimated spend by competitors and their family for the whole comp was about a million squid. Think of 50+ officials 350 competitors all with their mum and dad and maybe a sibling or two staying in hotels for a 5 day competition, eating out, staying on to do tourists things, hiring cars etc visiting tourist attractions. That's a few hundred quid each per head which for a family holiday is pretty normal spend.
There are a number of comps coming up such as a leg of the european youth series in September and a few others, all of which do bring alot of revenue to the area...
In reply to Alien 8:
I was hoping to get get a reaction to the idea of paying a tenner a go to vuisit a climbing wall.
I can't disagree with that and find it difficult to understand how they managed to con people out of all that money when two minutes of careful reflection would tell you that there was never, ever, going to be any way that they'd make a return on the £23 million that was poured into the place. I can't understand why they didn't just concentrate on building a climbing wall rather than throw a fortune away on expensive add ons that were never going to generate a profit.
Would I be at all cynical in thinking that your hostility to Ratho is partly due to the Lottery money it got at the start of the project? Quite understandable if you're running a business financed from commercial sources and your own savings if you find someone else is handed £1.5 million to start their own business in competition to yours. Whatever, it's good to see that both facilites are busy and at least one is making a profit.
> (In reply to Eric9Points)
>
> [...]
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Economics-Dummies-Sean-Masaki-Flynn/dp/0764557262
> Try starting with the clever bit on the elastic relationship between price and demand. For homework, try asking yourself if price will affect demand more or less if a. The service in question is already widely regarded in the market as overpriced b. there's a recession on.
>
> [...]
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Economics-Dummies-Sean-Masaki-Flynn/dp/0764557262
> Try starting with the clever bit on the elastic relationship between price and demand. For homework, try asking yourself if price will affect demand more or less if a. The service in question is already widely regarded in the market as overpriced b. there's a recession on.
I was hoping to get get a reaction to the idea of paying a tenner a go to vuisit a climbing wall.
>
> The place reminds me more and more of the nearby RBS HQ. An overpriced, overblown work of fin-de-siecle hubris that has rather predictably ended up as a dead weight on the increasingly withered public purse.
> The place reminds me more and more of the nearby RBS HQ. An overpriced, overblown work of fin-de-siecle hubris that has rather predictably ended up as a dead weight on the increasingly withered public purse.
I can't disagree with that and find it difficult to understand how they managed to con people out of all that money when two minutes of careful reflection would tell you that there was never, ever, going to be any way that they'd make a return on the £23 million that was poured into the place. I can't understand why they didn't just concentrate on building a climbing wall rather than throw a fortune away on expensive add ons that were never going to generate a profit.
Would I be at all cynical in thinking that your hostility to Ratho is partly due to the Lottery money it got at the start of the project? Quite understandable if you're running a business financed from commercial sources and your own savings if you find someone else is handed £1.5 million to start their own business in competition to yours. Whatever, it's good to see that both facilites are busy and at least one is making a profit.
In reply to Removed User:
Ratho puts 40 people a week through start up courses every week and has been doing so for a long time. If this isn't good for Alien's coffers then what is? Where's your economiccommon sense.
Is Alien a tenner now?!
Ratho puts 40 people a week through start up courses every week and has been doing so for a long time. If this isn't good for Alien's coffers then what is? Where's your economiccommon sense.
Is Alien a tenner now?!
In reply to Alien 8:
What a striking difference there is between the attitudes of the Alien staff and the Ratho staff posting here.
The ratho staff are all upbeat, enthusiastic and forward looking, and you only need to look above to see the kind of sneering, bitter griping that characterises the Alien attitude. It's really sad.
I know whose wall I'd rather climb at!
> An overpriced, overblown work of fin-de-siecle hubris that has rather predictably ended up as a dead weight on the increasingly withered public purse.
What a striking difference there is between the attitudes of the Alien staff and the Ratho staff posting here.
The ratho staff are all upbeat, enthusiastic and forward looking, and you only need to look above to see the kind of sneering, bitter griping that characterises the Alien attitude. It's really sad.
I know whose wall I'd rather climb at!
After Reading all this I thought I'd make a couple of comments.
The new Walls had to be built to allow ratho to hold major competitions, which will bring in an increase in revenue. There are now 3 companies based at ratho: judo Scotland, British snowsports and tiso. The judo guys use the gym when not in for comps or gradings which happen every other week. There is also a large range of conference facilities that are getting busier and busier, oh and don't forget the weddings, the soft playarea and all the courses that are run from Start Ups to irata training. So although the walls look quiet at times there is usually a lot of other activity through out the day. Remember it's not just a world class wall and when the holidays arrive it's busier than ever
The new Walls had to be built to allow ratho to hold major competitions, which will bring in an increase in revenue. There are now 3 companies based at ratho: judo Scotland, British snowsports and tiso. The judo guys use the gym when not in for comps or gradings which happen every other week. There is also a large range of conference facilities that are getting busier and busier, oh and don't forget the weddings, the soft playarea and all the courses that are run from Start Ups to irata training. So although the walls look quiet at times there is usually a lot of other activity through out the day. Remember it's not just a world class wall and when the holidays arrive it's busier than ever
In reply to mhairit:
That was Ratho he was thinking of, if they put their prices up by £1 as suggested by an earlier poster.
One of my climbing partners got in to a debate with a member of Ratho staff about the cost. Their argument was that the cost was justified because of the size of the place. My pal's answer to that was that it doesn't matter whether he pays £6 or £8, the limiting factor is not the number of lines available to climb but his own strength and stamina. I doubt many people could claim to have climbed every route up to their grade limit at Alien Rock in one session.
Although in theory the greater number of lines at Ratho should mean less risk of queueing, the lower to middle grades are so poorly represented on the lead walls (as Hay pointed out) that a bumbly like me usually does find all the lead routes in my grade range already occupied.
For me, Ratho is easy to get to from home but a pain from the office so midweek evenings I go to Alien. That means that I only think about going to Ratho at weekends, which in turn means only when I haven't got jobs needing doing at home and the weather rules out going outside.
> Is Alien a tenner now?!
That was Ratho he was thinking of, if they put their prices up by £1 as suggested by an earlier poster.
One of my climbing partners got in to a debate with a member of Ratho staff about the cost. Their argument was that the cost was justified because of the size of the place. My pal's answer to that was that it doesn't matter whether he pays £6 or £8, the limiting factor is not the number of lines available to climb but his own strength and stamina. I doubt many people could claim to have climbed every route up to their grade limit at Alien Rock in one session.
Although in theory the greater number of lines at Ratho should mean less risk of queueing, the lower to middle grades are so poorly represented on the lead walls (as Hay pointed out) that a bumbly like me usually does find all the lead routes in my grade range already occupied.
For me, Ratho is easy to get to from home but a pain from the office so midweek evenings I go to Alien. That means that I only think about going to Ratho at weekends, which in turn means only when I haven't got jobs needing doing at home and the weather rules out going outside.
In reply to Martin W:
Some interesting comments. Here's a top tip to help you get more climbing done next time your at Ratho.....
There are half-height lower off's on many of the lead walls, climbing to these will greatly reduce the overall grade. Many climbs will have a half height grade, many dont. Dont let this put you off though, you can still climb on some of the harder, steeper walls, just stop when you've had enough, this will open up a lot more wall space to you.
Some interesting comments. Here's a top tip to help you get more climbing done next time your at Ratho.....
There are half-height lower off's on many of the lead walls, climbing to these will greatly reduce the overall grade. Many climbs will have a half height grade, many dont. Dont let this put you off though, you can still climb on some of the harder, steeper walls, just stop when you've had enough, this will open up a lot more wall space to you.
In reply to Martin W:
I suspect very many people would claim this, and for Ratho too. I generally do every route in a roughly 3 grade window (5+/6a-6b+/6c) on visits to Alien. I can't say I've considered the lack of additional routes to be a problem, crowds are the only thing that might put me off.
> (In reply to mhairit)
>
> [...] I doubt many people could claim to have climbed every route up to their grade limit at Alien Rock in one session.
>
>
> [...] I doubt many people could claim to have climbed every route up to their grade limit at Alien Rock in one session.
>
I suspect very many people would claim this, and for Ratho too. I generally do every route in a roughly 3 grade window (5+/6a-6b+/6c) on visits to Alien. I can't say I've considered the lack of additional routes to be a problem, crowds are the only thing that might put me off.
In reply to buzby78:
I generally love Ratho!!! It's a great wall - much more fun then anywhere else. I always come away knackered!
Couple of comments:
It would be nice if some of the routes on the non-competition walls would be changed at some stage, they have been there for a very long time....
Secondly, a minor point really, but what has happened to the music recently, I have got quite an open mind - but recently it has been elevator music to the extreme plus ancient stuff, yesterday there was an elevator version of the best of Eagles and then last week there was a whole album of Blondie followed by more ancient stuff - just wondering....a bit of a mix would be nice or maybe no music at all?
I generally love Ratho!!! It's a great wall - much more fun then anywhere else. I always come away knackered!
Couple of comments:
It would be nice if some of the routes on the non-competition walls would be changed at some stage, they have been there for a very long time....
Secondly, a minor point really, but what has happened to the music recently, I have got quite an open mind - but recently it has been elevator music to the extreme plus ancient stuff, yesterday there was an elevator version of the best of Eagles and then last week there was a whole album of Blondie followed by more ancient stuff - just wondering....a bit of a mix would be nice or maybe no music at all?
In reply to buzby78:
Giving half-height grades for all routes with half-way lower-offs would be a trivial way to improve the offering to middle-grade punters. What's the problem with just doing it?
True, but it kind of feels a bit unsatisfactory.
> Many climbs will have a half height grade, many dont.
Giving half-height grades for all routes with half-way lower-offs would be a trivial way to improve the offering to middle-grade punters. What's the problem with just doing it?
> you can still climb on some of the harder, steeper walls, just stop when you've had enough
True, but it kind of feels a bit unsatisfactory.
In reply to Mark Bull:
But that's how you push your gade isn't it? By trying something that's a bit too hard until you have to stop and either resting or lowering off?
I'm not really sure what you want - loads of routes you can do easily?
> True, but it kind of feels a bit unsatisfactory.
But that's how you push your gade isn't it? By trying something that's a bit too hard until you have to stop and either resting or lowering off?
I'm not really sure what you want - loads of routes you can do easily?
In reply to Heike: I have to agree that the music is quite often terrible and i usually moan about it when I'm there! There is the rare occasion when they put something good on!
In reply to mikecopp:
I am not that fussy musicwise and I know music is a question of taste, but I am glad I am not the only one....I mean a whole album of Blondie, that's just torture!
I am not that fussy musicwise and I know music is a question of taste, but I am glad I am not the only one....I mean a whole album of Blondie, that's just torture!
In reply to Heike: Love Is In The Air was not the song i wanted to hear when trying to climb either!
In reply to Mark Bull:
All climbs that have half-height lower-offs already have split grades. My top tip was to encourage people to try routes that do not already have these lower-off's in place. All routes can be climbed to any point and a difficulty level given, imagination is the only requirement!
All climbs that have half-height lower-offs already have split grades. My top tip was to encourage people to try routes that do not already have these lower-off's in place. All routes can be climbed to any point and a difficulty level given, imagination is the only requirement!
In reply to niggle:
Yes, of course. But it's nice to know if I have half a chance of getting a decent way up the route: you don't want a bunch of punters like me occupying harder routes and failing to get more than a couple of moves of the deck....
> But that's how you push your gade isn't it? By trying something that's a bit too hard until you have to stop and either resting or lowering off?
Yes, of course. But it's nice to know if I have half a chance of getting a decent way up the route: you don't want a bunch of punters like me occupying harder routes and failing to get more than a couple of moves of the deck....
In reply to buzby78:
Ah, OK, so why not put half-height lower-offs on everything then?
See my comment above: isn't that encouraging folk to occupy lines which are way too hard for them?
> All climbs that have half-height lower-offs already have split grades.
Ah, OK, so why not put half-height lower-offs on everything then?
> My top tip was to encourage people to try routes that do not already have these lower-off's in place.
See my comment above: isn't that encouraging folk to occupy lines which are way too hard for them?
In reply to Mark Bull:
>Ah, OK, so why not put half-height lower-offs on everything then?
Not a bad idea, certainly something we could look into.
>See my comment above: isn't that encouraging folk to occupy lines which are way too hard for them?
What's wrong with encouraging people to try harder routes? It's really not that hard to choose a full height route and then make an educated guess at what a quarter, half height, 3/4 height grade would be!
>Ah, OK, so why not put half-height lower-offs on everything then?
Not a bad idea, certainly something we could look into.
>See my comment above: isn't that encouraging folk to occupy lines which are way too hard for them?
What's wrong with encouraging people to try harder routes? It's really not that hard to choose a full height route and then make an educated guess at what a quarter, half height, 3/4 height grade would be!
In reply to buzby78:
Thanks, I'd appreciate that.
That's a fair point. Personally, I prefer to push myself hard on a top-rope instead of dogging a lead route, but that's a matter of choice, and it's better that queuing!
> Not a bad idea, certainly something we could look into.
Thanks, I'd appreciate that.
> It's really not that hard to choose a full height route and then make an educated guess at what a quarter, half height, 3/4 height grade would be!
That's a fair point. Personally, I prefer to push myself hard on a top-rope instead of dogging a lead route, but that's a matter of choice, and it's better that queuing!
In reply to Mark Bull:
Totally agree with Buzby78 here. Quality route setting at Ratho means that you can often 'read' the route and work out the really nippy bits from the ground.
Half height lower off are all very well and good but they encourage the idea that there are only two options on every line. The same way that one lower off gives the idea you HAVE to get to the top. There are loads of options on a route....use a bit of imagination, set your own targets and push yourself. You can always lower off a draw if you have to.
As for people 'hogging' routes outwith their grade. I personally think that is a very old fashioned idea. Everyone pays the same money and if a grade 5 climber wants to project a 6a+ route then all power to them.
Bruce
Totally agree with Buzby78 here. Quality route setting at Ratho means that you can often 'read' the route and work out the really nippy bits from the ground.
Half height lower off are all very well and good but they encourage the idea that there are only two options on every line. The same way that one lower off gives the idea you HAVE to get to the top. There are loads of options on a route....use a bit of imagination, set your own targets and push yourself. You can always lower off a draw if you have to.
As for people 'hogging' routes outwith their grade. I personally think that is a very old fashioned idea. Everyone pays the same money and if a grade 5 climber wants to project a 6a+ route then all power to them.
Bruce
In reply to Hay:
That's the beauty of Ratho. The routes are so long that you can practice essential skills which are pretty hard to rehearse elsewhere. Reading the route is one, learning when to sprint and when to rest on a route is another.
Agreed again. There are a couple of lines on which I stop after the difficulties or before them, and I've been seeing a lot of people doing everything but the final roof on the new comp wall. I don't know about you but I'm not quite climbing at the level where I really need to worry about how pure my ethics are!
> Quality route setting at Ratho means that you can often 'read' the route and work out the really nippy bits from the ground.
That's the beauty of Ratho. The routes are so long that you can practice essential skills which are pretty hard to rehearse elsewhere. Reading the route is one, learning when to sprint and when to rest on a route is another.
> Half height lower off are all very well and good but they encourage the idea that there are only two options on every line.
Agreed again. There are a couple of lines on which I stop after the difficulties or before them, and I've been seeing a lot of people doing everything but the final roof on the new comp wall. I don't know about you but I'm not quite climbing at the level where I really need to worry about how pure my ethics are!
In reply to niggle and Hay:
Interesting food for thought here. I think I need to re-evaluate my approach to indoor leading, and stop treating an indoor wall like a crag with a roof over it. My trad ethics must be fairly deeply ingrained after 25 years!
Interesting food for thought here. I think I need to re-evaluate my approach to indoor leading, and stop treating an indoor wall like a crag with a roof over it. My trad ethics must be fairly deeply ingrained after 25 years!
In reply to Mark Bull:
"Rainbow" ascents are allowed, too, Mark!
Davy "use owt to get to the top" Virdee
> (In reply to niggle and Hay)
>
> > My trad ethics must be fairly deeply ingrained after 25 years!
>
> > My trad ethics must be fairly deeply ingrained after 25 years!
"Rainbow" ascents are allowed, too, Mark!
Davy "use owt to get to the top" Virdee
In reply to niggle:
That's because some of the routes stop there at the lower-offs.
> ...I've been seeing a lot of people doing everything but the final roof on the new comp wall.
That's because some of the routes stop there at the lower-offs.
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:
Those canny scots eh!
> (In reply to The Climbing Works)
> [...]
>
> I'd love to see those figures substantiated. That is a huge sum of money. What did they do, buy a house?
> [...]
>
> I'd love to see those figures substantiated. That is a huge sum of money. What did they do, buy a house?
Those canny scots eh!
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