/ EDITORIAL: Uninformed Krapulous Comment

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UKC Articles - on 27 Mar 2009
[Deadpoint Magazine, 3 kb]UKC Editor Jack Geldard reads Jim Perrin's column in the latest Climber Magazine.

Jack takes a quick look at the changing face of climbing media in this short editorial commentary.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1770

goneforever on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to UKC Articles:

I wonder whether he went to press with his article around the 28th of last month?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=287962

Every action tends to have an equal and opposite reaction.

sutty on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to UKC Articles:

Bit of kettle calling pot black then. Some of his writing is so inaccurate it could be fiction.
Rachael Barlow - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to UKC Articles:

Nice phone!
tony on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to UKC Articles:

Maybe you should invite Jim Perrin to write a piece for UKC? Get him to muse on the addictive nature of it, perhaps - or lack of same, for him? He might like to comment on the addictive nature of Climber magazine too, while he's at it - if it had one...
Ian McNeill - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to UKC Articles:

but its true most of what I read on here is usually best described as

“Uninformed Krapulous Comment”

people don't bother reading articles or search the forums before posting a daft question ...



Morgan Woods - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to UKC Articles:

nice....but i got a bit confused....at first i though it was JP himself who rang you not some other old geezer who writes about climbing and collects guidebooks??
In reply to Ian McNeill:
> but its true most of what I read on here is usually best described as
>
> “Uninformed Krapulous Comment”
>
> people don't bother reading articles or search the forums before posting a daft question ...

So does this correspond to "most of what you read" on here? Or is it just a few comments posted on the Forums?

Are you perhaps being guilty here of your own "Uninformed etc."?

Alan
Jonno on 27 Mar 2009 - user-5af0470d.wfd99.dsl.pol.co.uk
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Doesn't JP actually admit that several of his 'aged friends' are addicted to UKC ? That's praise of sorts isn't it. Although I wouldn't consider myself 'aged' exactly although I would accept 'seasoned', and I've never been a friend of JP although I've met him on occasion, I do spend too much time for my own good on here so I suppose I fall into that group of 'addicts'.

Of course their is a lot of Crap on UKC but it's not the forum for Classical Greek scholars or tweedy anthropologists. It's strength is in its tolerance and acceptance of often controversial subjects without hitting the censure button at the first hint of controversy.

There are a wide range of users with vastly differing political,philosophical,cultural and of course climbing interests. It's the best forum I've ever come across. I'd be surprised if even St Jimbo could find something better out there.
JimR - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to Jonno:

I suspect its JP's response to a thread criticising his style of writing.
Ian McNeill - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
no just provocateur !
Ian McNeill - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to Ian McNeill:

forums mainly .. other contents good .. and more current than th printed forms that are out there...
psd on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to Ian McNeill:

Still, look on the bright side. Now we've got rid of Slopes, at least we can now claim to spell crapulous better than Perrin...
shark - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to psd: we can now claim to spell crapulous better than Perrin...


But Jimlove Krapwords
peter beal - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to UKC Articles:
I have long admired Jim Perrin's writing. Wasn't he, a very long time ago, a bit of a rebel and innovator himself? Is it the media itself, its content, its style, or what that he objects to? Pity the article isn't linked. I probably won't see it in Boulder, CO
Michael Ryan - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to Ian McNeill:
> (In reply to Ian McNeill)
>
> forums mainly .. other contents good .. and more current than th printed forms that are out there...

There's this term called spotlighting, I think it comes from psychology, and it describes when an individual thinks everyone is focussed on them.

For example an individual thinks that everyone notices that stain on their T-shirt, or that their shoes are dirty.

I've started to use the term spotlighting to describe the tendency for some people to judge the whole of UKC by the odd negative or misinformed comment on the UKC forums.

This is a vast website, with a wealth of information, superb contributions from many people in the photo-galleries and yes, in these forums; route logbooks used by over 5,000 climbers, daily and professional news items that in a month can eclipse the climbing and mountaineering news in a whole years worth of magazines, a fantastic set of weekly articles, both commissioned and submitted, gear reviews on a weekly basis - that are open to all to judge, daily Outdoor Industry News, creative competitions - this months has 34 entries by climbers who have spent time writing 500 words and uploading a photograh about a great winter climbing experience.

I could go on.

Point is, this new media, is vast, yes you will get some negativity, as it is open to all, but the wealth of climbing information and participation eclipses anything that has gone before.

But some, and quite often industry insiders; journalists, top climbers, the odd photographer, will spotlight the negative and ignore the majority that is positive and often, and increasingly, as we take on more talented staff, of a very high quality.

Mick
Michael Ryan - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to peter beal:

Perrin's article is very good, Peter. He reminisces about the climbers of old in Manchester town.

I'll forward you a scan.

But we couldn't let his comment about UKC go, so we spotlighted it. ; o )

Want mayo on that sandwich?

Mick
shark - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

If spotlighting is as you describe then that is not quite the correct term.

What I think you mean is that the ill-infornmed comment quite often resonates disproportionately and are more memorable than a greater number of well-informed reasonable comments. There was a barrister I saw quoted who sought out phrases that would resonate with the jury. You questioning if the E grade was 'broken' seems to have hit the same sort note, as an example.
mark reeves - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Scan? Have you not taken to the DSLR scanner? One press hires JPEG copier?

I haven't seen the article yet, but has it got an old picture attach to it that we have seen a million times before?

I have to admit that I don't read JP, as he uses words that stopped being commonly used before i was born!

Spotlighting the Negative
Michael Ryan - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to Simon Lee:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)


> What I think you mean is that the ill-infornmed comment quite often resonates disproportionately and are more memorable than a greater number of well-informed reasonable comments.

Yep that's it Simon. Those comments are spotlighted by some.
shark - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Arrghh..5 - no now 6 posts in a row - spotlight has gone viral
Michael Ryan - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to Simon Lee:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
>
> Arrghh..5 - no now 6 posts in a row - spotlight has gone viral

And all whilst I was explaining and discussing the five senses with a 3 year old I'm babysitting!

The Pylon King on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to UKC Articles:

Is it only me who uses the landline more than the mobile?
Morgan Woods - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to Simon Lee:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
>
> Arrghh..5 - no now 6 posts in a row - spotlight has gone viral

sounds like bollox to me....i did a psych degree and never heard of the term.

Wrongfoot on 27 Mar 2009 - client-86-24-6-229.bmly.adsl.virgin.net
In reply to UKC Articles:

I thought that JP wrote mostly "informed crapulous comment" in that he researches his topics and then writes his own opinions regardless of what that research would suggest? A trife over opinionated himself, no?

I'm not sure which is worse at least the uninformed have the excuse of ignorance...
Michael Ryan - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to Morgan Woods:
> (In reply to Simon Lee)
> [...]
>
> sounds like bollox to me....i did a psych degree and never heard of the term.

You have now.

petestack - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to The Pylon King:
> Is it only me who uses the landline more than the mobile?

No.

JimR - on 27 Mar 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to peter beal)
>
> Perrin's article is very good, Peter. He reminisces about the climbers of old in Manchester town.
>
> I'll forward you a scan.
>
> But we couldn't let his comment about UKC go, so we spotlighted it. ; o )
>
>
> Mick

I suspect the thread in question which highlit some sloppy writing from Perrin provoking that response also made him try a wee bit harder resulting in one of his better articles for some time. This perhaps demonstrates the strength and reach of UKC?
gabriel_m on 28 Mar 2009
In reply to UKC Articles:
Why does the editor of UKC feels the need to write a featured article about how its not rubbish? Would you ever see an editorial in a magazine or newspaper on the subject of someone else's mocking of their institution containing a comeback? Once you take away the build-up to picking up the phone, a couple of unrelated links for your own site's articles, a plug for another site, a couple of pictures (one of which is utterly irrelevant) and an anecdote about phoning your mum there's barely 100 words.

If the decoration was poetic, entertaining or thought provoking then maybe the definition of the word article could be stretched to cover it, but as it stands it can be summarised in a few words. If this is the standard of featured articles in the media world that UKC sees itself as the brave new pioneers of then Id rather get twelve magazines a year. They may be slower but at least they have had time to think.

It is exactly this type of article that merits the description Uniformed Krapulous Comment. And trying to imply that the word 'addicted' connotes a positive relationship between user and product is a pretty desperate attempt at finding approval. The half-hearted narrative description in the article even seemed to be an acknowledgement of Perrin's literary skill and an attempt to at some level match it.

The acolytes of UKC always re-direct any criticism of the site towards the forums, complaining of a few bad apples. If anything it is the opposite of your spotlighting Mick. Forums are forums, as far as they go the UKC ones are for the most part quite interesting. Drawing attention away from the writing in the articles, reviews and news by suggesting that all negative comments about the site are down to misinformed individuals who have only read a few misinformed comments on the forums doesn't do them justice.
AlisonS - on 28 Mar 2009
In reply to mark reeves:
>
> I haven't seen the article yet, but has it got an old picture attach to it that we have seen a million times before?
>

What a remarkably uninformed comment!

;-)



Will Hunt - on 28 Mar 2009
In reply to UKC Articles:

I always find Jim Perrin's articles are a joy to read. Well written and in a fine style which, rather than being off-putting, is very engaging as it is something that is not often come across.

As to one comment made in the thread linked to by the first reply that labelled Perrin's writing "wanky" may I suggest that this is a problem of the literacy of the critic and not of the intelligence of the writing.
Masquerade on 28 Mar 2009
In reply to Will Hunt: Ive read Jack Kerouac novels into double figures aswell as such novels as Truman Capote's Breakfast at Tiffany's, Anthony Burgess A clockwork Orange and Gabriel Garcia Marquez One Hundred Years of Solitude so have been quite used to mental gymnastics when reading challenging writing styles but the only objection I have to the description of "wanky" is that it should have been prefixed with "pretentious"

At its heart UKC is about reading and writing and everyone should have the opportunity to place their thoughts in that medium. It could be punk "Anarchy in the UKC" and Perrin could be an old fart.
ripper - on 28 Mar 2009
In reply to UKC Articles: blimey what a kerfuffle! Jim must be feeling unbelievably smug at the amount of debate this article has stimulated.
Masquerade on 28 Mar 2009
In reply to ripper: Yes, debate on UKC. It hasnt made me go out and buy the rag.
AlisonS - on 28 Mar 2009
In reply to Masquerade:

I wonder if it's available in the library?
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Mar 2009
In reply to Will Hunt:

>As to one comment made in the thread linked to by the first reply that labelled Perrin's writing "wanky" may I suggest that this is a problem of the literacy of the critic and not of the intelligence of the writing.

No, you can't, I'm afraid. That would be arrogant, elitist, insufficiently fluffy and, to quote Tom Lehrer, "Quuuiiiiite a variety/Of unpleasant names".

Or so I was told on the last thread, anyway. Though you're right, of course.

jcm
Minneconjou Sioux - on 29 Mar 2009
In reply to UKC Articles:

I stopped reading JP after he claimed there was no new rock left in the UK worth climbing. What he meant was there was nothing left in The Peak or North Wales (and I'm not sure he is right there either).

I also thought he did a piss poor job of Don Whillans biography.
gabriel_m on 29 Mar 2009
In reply to Masquerade:
Where else exactly would you expect anyone to care? It's hardly a intellectual triumph over Mr Perrin.
Michael Ryan - on 29 Mar 2009
In reply to gabriel_m:
> (In reply to UKC Articles)
> Why does the editor of UKC feels the need to write a featured article about how its not rubbish?

Why does Jim Perrin feel the need to be negative about UKClimbing.com in his monthly column in a magazine?

> If this is the standard of featured articles in the media world that UKC sees itself as the brave new pioneers of then Id rather get twelve magazines a year. They may be slower but at least they have had time to think.

The below are just the Feature articles in March....bouldering, alpinism, Scottish ice, a first extreme lead, big wall soloing, photography, climbing and gender.......just a small snippet of March's total content. High quality, by both professionals and enthusiasts.

Meeting The Godfather
by Es Tresidder
11/Mar/2009
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1719

Mountaineering Mums
by Sarah Stirling
26/Mar/2009
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1739

Long Tall Sally; A Step In To The Extreme
by Tom Ireson
24/Mar/2009
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1758

In Conversation: Yusuke Sato - Giri Giri Boy
by Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC
17/Mar/2009
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1744


Soloing Washington Column
by Karl Baba 12/Mar/2009

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1737

Light Work - Make Your Photography Stand Out
by Alex Messenger
25/Mar/2009
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1764

FRIDAY NIGHT VIDEO: A Journey to Failure
by Bunchuk
17/Mar/2009
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1748

Recent destination articles: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/older.html?category=2

Gear reviews: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/

News for March: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=03&year=2009

and on and on......

Mick
Michael Ryan - on 29 Mar 2009
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Woops. I forgot the 34 entries (28 published so far) to our writing and photo competition.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1606

28: Such a perfect day... Mar/2009
29: My Last Day on the Ben Mar/2009
25: Glencoe's Classic Mountain: a poem Mar/2009
26: Going Solo Mar/2009
24: Winter sport for pensioners, or is it? Mar/2009
27: Lancashire Ice Mar/2009
23: Dilated Moments of Struggle Mar/2009
22: Bacon rolls, Bowden and Bouldering Mar/2009
21: Winter climbing is a game Mar/2009
20: The Day I Misunderstood Mar/2009
19: The Eiger Moment Mar/2009
18: Walking Out the Hard Way Mar/2009
16: King Kong Mar/2009
17: Bole Hill Kids Mar/2009
14: Feeding the rat Mar/2009
15: the golden sensual silence of the moor Mar/2009
13: Fifteen Haribo™ and Four Snickers™ Mar/2009
11: messing about in the northern quarries Mar/2009
12: Cascade, Llanberis Pass Mar/2009
10: Gold times in Wisconsin Mar/2009
9: Fun in the sun - winter bouldering in Eritrea Mar/2009
7: Meeting Frosty Feb/2009
8: First Day in Cogne Feb/2009
6: Joy flows thick in the veins Feb/2009
4: Just a walk and an easy ridge she said… Feb/2009
5: Playing In The Snow Feb/2009
3: The Apprentice Feb/2009
1: Dinner In The Mountains Feb/2009
2: Manbeast Feb/2009
In reply to tobyfk:

Maybe he is worried - watching the way he earns a crust disappearing?


Chris
tobyfk - on 29 Mar 2009
In reply to UKC Articles:

It is funny how different people respond to the chaotic democracy of the internet. Jim Perrin, a minor climbing legend in his early 60s, obviously finds it beneath him. In contrast, John Gill, a major climbing legend of almost mythic status now in his 70s, posts enthusiastically on US forums and will respond to email from strangers. I know which wins my respect.
Offwidth - on 01 Apr 2009
In reply to tobyfk:

Good point, maybe something to think about for those bemoaning the poor average quality of forum posts on this site. Still it would be nice if some posters: did a search sometime before posting the same question posed 10 minutes earier by someone else and 5 times that week; read what they put before sending it; sober up before posting; be childishly rude elsewhere; consider a 'help organissation' like Posters Anonymouse; etc. The fluff does somewhat drown out the minority of the (still very numerous) sensible posts, quite a few of which are excellent, thoughtful, clever, witty and knowlegable.

'UKC inc.' (ie the editors) do seem a bit oversensitive sometimes to critism of issues that are almost inevitable, given the popularity of the forums and use posting numbers and democracy as a 'bludgeon' when they should be admitting the problem and looking for ways of improving debate (continuing in the lines of the new 'UKC forum' with its tighter moderation)....although they are right to 'talk up' their news, articles, databases etc.

In Perrin's terms, it's very much non-uniform KC (a fault of the man where his love of words sometimes overwhelms his clarity),
AlisonS - on 01 Apr 2009
In reply to Offwidth:

I think it's flattering for UKC that JP mentions it at all.

And flattering for JP and Climber mag that UKC reciprocates.

I don't see any malice in a bit of reciprocal banter and all sides benefit, and it's nice to be noticed.

Thanks to everyone for saying nice things about my little film. :-)
Monk - on 01 Apr 2009
In reply to gabriel_m:
> (In reply to UKC Articles)
> Why does the editor of UKC feels the need to write a featured article about how its not rubbish? Would you ever see an editorial in a magazine or newspaper on the subject of someone else's mocking of their institution containing a comeback? O

I disagree. I think this is totally normal. You just have to look at the way any of the national papers crow when they win a libel case (or how the others crow when a rival loses a similar case) to see that this is the norm,.

For what it's worth (probably not a lot) I thought the article was a lovely gentle response with a subtle edge. Not rude, not overly critical, just stating a case.
Simon - on 01 Apr 2009
In reply to AlisonS:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
>
> I think it's flattering for UKC that JP mentions it at all.
>
> And flattering for JP and Climber mag that UKC reciprocates.
>
> I don't see any malice in a bit of reciprocal banter and all sides benefit, and it's nice to be noticed.
>
> Thanks to everyone for saying nice things about my little film. :-)



The fact that Jim nods a head to your film/story is chance that he notices UKC and then the opoosite about how its full of people spouting stuff as though not what they say is a pure Jim.

Its no secret one of Jim's that he loves Bob Dylan and he love to write like the great man...its what you read into it man!

;0)

Si
AlisonS - on 02 Apr 2009
In reply to Simon:
> (In reply to AlisonS)

>
> The fact that Jim nods a head to your film/story is chance that he notices UKC and then the opoosite about how its full of people spouting stuff as though not what they say is a pure Jim.
>

Sorry Simon. I don't quite get your drift.
fxceltic on 02 Apr 2009
In reply to Martin76:
> (In reply to UKC Articles)
>
> I wonder whether he went to press with his article around the 28th of last month?
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=287962
>
> Every action tends to have an equal and opposite reaction.

the best thing about that link is that towards the bottom Jonno admits that he was intrigued by a book called "menlove" and ordered it immediately based on the title.

what does that say eh jonno???


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