This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Not sure if this is the corect form to post this in but please excuse me if it is not.
I am wondering if anyone knows of a knot that you could lower a load (say a gear bag) on a single of rope to ground level and release it and retrieve the rope? i.e. with noone at ground level to untie the knot.
Thanks
Dangler
I am wondering if anyone knows of a knot that you could lower a load (say a gear bag) on a single of rope to ground level and release it and retrieve the rope? i.e. with noone at ground level to untie the knot.
Thanks
Dangler
In reply to dangler:
Why bother with a knot... use double ropes (or a single) and drop one end when the bag's on the ground, and pull it back up with the other. Retrieving an abseil rope in reverse.
Why bother with a knot... use double ropes (or a single) and drop one end when the bag's on the ground, and pull it back up with the other. Retrieving an abseil rope in reverse.
In reply to jon: Thanks for your reply. I am looking for a knot that will go at the end of the line and release upon the release of tension (i.e. when the load reaches the ground). Whilst I agree that a doubled rope would work it is not what I am looking for (If you were 30m above the ground and you had a 35m rope then doubling the rope would be insufficient).
In reply to dangler:
That's why I said double rope... There are various devices that will do this. Another method involves a lost arrow or similar peg, a karabiner and a couple of strategically tied overhand knots. Bit complicated to explain here... but simple if you grasp the theory.
That's why I said double rope... There are various devices that will do this. Another method involves a lost arrow or similar peg, a karabiner and a couple of strategically tied overhand knots. Bit complicated to explain here... but simple if you grasp the theory.
In reply to dangler: you could use a munter friction hitch (italian hitch) but that would mean leaving some tat behind. all you would have to do is pull on the end where your sack is until the rope falls down
hope this helps, DAN
hope this helps, DAN
In reply to jon: Thanks folks. Yes I want to retrieve the rope and continue climbing. Assume I only have one 35m rope and I want to lower an item (say a bucket of eggs!) to ground level at 30m I want to gently lower the bucket and retrieve the rope. Doubling is not an option as it will only get me to 17.5m maximum and then the bucket would drop.
In reply to dangler:
I've just experimented by tying a Klemheist prussic loop on to a rope and attaching that to a rucksack by running the bottom loop thru the sac haul point before then passing it back to complete the Klemheist. If you are careful to keep the rope fully weighted by the sac during the lowering phase, when it hits the ground you should be able to waggle the klemheist into opening itself and the rope will come free. Worked on my stairs!!
Can't think of a way to do it jsut using the rope unless there's a trick with some kind of slip knot.
I've just experimented by tying a Klemheist prussic loop on to a rope and attaching that to a rucksack by running the bottom loop thru the sac haul point before then passing it back to complete the Klemheist. If you are careful to keep the rope fully weighted by the sac during the lowering phase, when it hits the ground you should be able to waggle the klemheist into opening itself and the rope will come free. Worked on my stairs!!
Can't think of a way to do it jsut using the rope unless there's a trick with some kind of slip knot.
In reply to Ann S: Thanks Ann. You are thinking along the right lines and I like the ingenuity of your system. However if I wanted to lower multiple items I would need a number of additional prussics.
A hook would work for the bucket but the reason I was looking for a knot is because a knot could be adjusted to fit any item a hook cannot.
A hook would work for the bucket but the reason I was looking for a knot is because a knot could be adjusted to fit any item a hook cannot.
In reply to Ann S:
Where do you clip the karb with this setup?
Where do you clip the karb with this setup?
In reply to jamestheyip:
Sorry OK I get it I assume you mean clip it back to the hual loop. I tried it over a 1 metre distance and worked (6mm prusik on 8mm rope)
Sorry OK I get it I assume you mean clip it back to the hual loop. I tried it over a 1 metre distance and worked (6mm prusik on 8mm rope)
In reply to dangler:
Ok -Solution mark2. I have just used a 10mm rope on a heavy crag sack by taking one end of the rope and tying a fig 8 thru the haul loop-this is NOT a retied fig 8 but the first part of retied fig 8 if you see what I mean. This leaves you with tail of any length you choose. It cinched tight while bumping the bag down the stairs and then shakes loose with sufficient waggling of the rope as the fig 8 has a tendency to want to roll of the end of the rope. I suspect you may have to calibrate the length of tail after the 8 according to the distance and the weight you are dealing with. Give it a try -it seems to work, but may be a problem if you have skinny ropes. Let me know if it works.
PS why aren't we out climbing?
Ok -Solution mark2. I have just used a 10mm rope on a heavy crag sack by taking one end of the rope and tying a fig 8 thru the haul loop-this is NOT a retied fig 8 but the first part of retied fig 8 if you see what I mean. This leaves you with tail of any length you choose. It cinched tight while bumping the bag down the stairs and then shakes loose with sufficient waggling of the rope as the fig 8 has a tendency to want to roll of the end of the rope. I suspect you may have to calibrate the length of tail after the 8 according to the distance and the weight you are dealing with. Give it a try -it seems to work, but may be a problem if you have skinny ropes. Let me know if it works.
PS why aren't we out climbing?
In reply to dangler:
Not sure how practical this would be but you could tie a Highwaymans Hitch on to your pack and the lower it. Attach a thin line to the realease end pull that when the pack is at the bottom and pull both the rope and think line baack up.
Not sure how practical this would be but you could tie a Highwaymans Hitch on to your pack and the lower it. Attach a thin line to the realease end pull that when the pack is at the bottom and pull both the rope and think line baack up.
In reply to dangler: A big hook!
In reply to dangler: Just came up with this idea and it works so I hereby claim ownership of the idea cos if no0ones thought of it before then i get to name it (which would be nice as I'm in no danger of ever naming a route!)I shall call it Payne's Torsion Hitch.
, twist a bight (sp) in the rope twice, thread the tail through the handle of item back up and push a bight og the tail through the first loop. Holds when under tension then falls apart when tension released.
, twist a bight (sp) in the rope twice, thread the tail through the handle of item back up and push a bight og the tail through the first loop. Holds when under tension then falls apart when tension released.
In reply to dangler: Would one of these work http://www.bdel.com/gear/fifi_hook.php
In reply to twm.bwen: This sounds like the knot I am looking for but I cannot picture it. Any pictures?
In reply to spa_bob: No HOOKS!
In reply to Ann S: Nice idea but I am looking for minimal bumping and waggling to release!
In reply to dangler:
OK, here it is. If it's a sac it'll have a carrying loop. If it's a bundle of stuff, wrap it up in such a way that it has got the equivalent of a carrying loop.
Tie an overhand in the end of your rope. Now tie another, 30 - 40 cms from the end.
Slip the bight of the second knot (that's the one 30 - 40 cms from the end) through the carrying loop - not the whole knot, just the loop formed by it. Now thread a longish peg through the bight that projects through the carrying loop. It can even be a tent peg - it simply needs to be quite long and have an eye at one end. Just push the peg into the loop sufficiently so that when loaded it prevents the bight pulling back out of the carrying loop.
The eye end of the peg should be the long end. Clip a krab into it and clip the overhand at the end of the rope into it. When loaded the peg takes the strain. When the bag reaches the floor the peg is unweighted and because the eye end is heavier - it also has a krab attached to it - it simply falls out of the loop. Pull your rope back up.
I shouldn't tell you this, but it's just one of several techniques that... no, I don't think I'll tell you!
OK, here it is. If it's a sac it'll have a carrying loop. If it's a bundle of stuff, wrap it up in such a way that it has got the equivalent of a carrying loop.
Tie an overhand in the end of your rope. Now tie another, 30 - 40 cms from the end.
Slip the bight of the second knot (that's the one 30 - 40 cms from the end) through the carrying loop - not the whole knot, just the loop formed by it. Now thread a longish peg through the bight that projects through the carrying loop. It can even be a tent peg - it simply needs to be quite long and have an eye at one end. Just push the peg into the loop sufficiently so that when loaded it prevents the bight pulling back out of the carrying loop.
The eye end of the peg should be the long end. Clip a krab into it and clip the overhand at the end of the rope into it. When loaded the peg takes the strain. When the bag reaches the floor the peg is unweighted and because the eye end is heavier - it also has a krab attached to it - it simply falls out of the loop. Pull your rope back up.
I shouldn't tell you this, but it's just one of several techniques that... no, I don't think I'll tell you!
In reply to jon: Thanks this is great. But I cant help thinkinking there must be a knot that will do this without the need for any additional gear.
If only I had The Ashley Book of Knots...I bet there would be something in there. Someone put me out of my misery.
If only I had The Ashley Book of Knots...I bet there would be something in there. Someone put me out of my misery.
In reply to dangler:
If there was we'd be able to abseil 50m on a 50m rope and retrieve it without these tricks. There's also a hook (as someone mentioned above) that is purpose made for the job. It's spring loaded and far more dangerous than the method I described...!
If there was we'd be able to abseil 50m on a 50m rope and retrieve it without these tricks. There's also a hook (as someone mentioned above) that is purpose made for the job. It's spring loaded and far more dangerous than the method I described...!
In reply to dangler:
How about a poorly tied one with an inadequate tail?
But, joking apart, think about what you're asking and consider some of the solutions proposed as practical alternatives to the knot-that-unties-itself-but-only-when-you-want-it-to!
> But I cant help thinkinking there must be a knot that will do this without the need for any additional gear.
How about a poorly tied one with an inadequate tail?
But, joking apart, think about what you're asking and consider some of the solutions proposed as practical alternatives to the knot-that-unties-itself-but-only-when-you-want-it-to!
In reply to jon:
....and the last thing you would want when abseiling is a knot that released whenever it was unweighted.
> (In reply to dangler)
>
> If there was we'd be able to abseil 50m on a 50m rope and retrieve it without these tricks.
>
> If there was we'd be able to abseil 50m on a 50m rope and retrieve it without these tricks.
....and the last thing you would want when abseiling is a knot that released whenever it was unweighted.
In reply to jon:
I know the technique you're referring to - I doubt if I could watch anyone do this, let alone actually do it!
I know the technique you're referring to - I doubt if I could watch anyone do this, let alone actually do it!
In reply to dangler: bowline and shake it to release it, it'll undo when its not weighted and not got a stopper on. matt
In reply to jamesboyle:
You mean on abseil...? I've done it, though under very strict test conditions. That's why it's better for lowering a sac...
You mean on abseil...? I've done it, though under very strict test conditions. That's why it's better for lowering a sac...
In reply to dangler:
ive just managed to lower a daysack with this method:
tie an overhand knot on the bight, forming a loop about a foot long with a tail about the same length, then tie a double overhand knot in the tail. pass the loop though the handle on the bag, then thread the tail through the loop. if you do it right the loop hooks on the knot in the tail, when you unweight the rope the loop falls off and you can pull it up. it seems to work suprisingly well despite looking very precarious.
if this doesnt make sense ill take some photos
ive just managed to lower a daysack with this method:
tie an overhand knot on the bight, forming a loop about a foot long with a tail about the same length, then tie a double overhand knot in the tail. pass the loop though the handle on the bag, then thread the tail through the loop. if you do it right the loop hooks on the knot in the tail, when you unweight the rope the loop falls off and you can pull it up. it seems to work suprisingly well despite looking very precarious.
if this doesnt make sense ill take some photos
In reply to Sparky LaRoue:
This sounds like the system I was describing using a peg... The thing about the peg is that its own weight releases the sac mechanically - 100% guarantee. In your system it seems a bit of flicking could be needed which might not guarantee 100% success. Sounds like it worked first time for you, though...
This sounds like the system I was describing using a peg... The thing about the peg is that its own weight releases the sac mechanically - 100% guarantee. In your system it seems a bit of flicking could be needed which might not guarantee 100% success. Sounds like it worked first time for you, though...
In reply to Sparky LaRoue:
i made a slight improvement by adding another overhand knot on the bight to make it a bit more secure. Heres some pictures:
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7315/dsc00241frr.jpg
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9966/dsc00243e.jpg
i made a slight improvement by adding another overhand knot on the bight to make it a bit more secure. Heres some pictures:
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7315/dsc00241frr.jpg
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9966/dsc00243e.jpg
In reply to jon:
yeah i guess its the same principal. i imagine the peg is easier to release, a little bit of flicking is needed with my method, though it does seem to work fairly reliably
yeah i guess its the same principal. i imagine the peg is easier to release, a little bit of flicking is needed with my method, though it does seem to work fairly reliably
In reply to dangler:
Use two ropes, rather than one and it would work.
> (In reply to jon) Thanks folks. Yes I want to retrieve the rope and continue climbing. Assume I only have one 35m rope and I want to lower an item (say a bucket of eggs!) to ground level at 30m I want to gently lower the bucket and retrieve the rope. Doubling is not an option as it will only get me to 17.5m maximum and then the bucket would drop.
Use two ropes, rather than one and it would work.
In reply to dangler: how about you just drop the bag??!!
In reply to ian stewart:
Wouldn't do the eggs much good.
> (In reply to dangler) how about you just drop the bag??!!
Wouldn't do the eggs much good.
In reply to jamestheyip:
Didn't use a krab at all with this 'klemheist' set up. I just looped the knot of the prussic thru the top loop and cinched the whole thing down on the rope and it seems to work-will be at Troy quarry tomorrow and intend to check out both my systems out of pure curiosity.
Didn't use a krab at all with this 'klemheist' set up. I just looped the knot of the prussic thru the top loop and cinched the whole thing down on the rope and it seems to work-will be at Troy quarry tomorrow and intend to check out both my systems out of pure curiosity.
In reply to dangler: For gods sake, in this day and age why are you only climbing with a single 35mt rope?
In reply to Al Evans:
Al - you're just an old pounds, shillings and pence kind of guy. The drag on a 35mt rope would be horrendous - you would need to add a large crane to your rack and that would just be silly.
slugain
> (In reply to dangler) For gods sake, in this day and age why are you only climbing with a single 35mt rope?
Al - you're just an old pounds, shillings and pence kind of guy. The drag on a 35mt rope would be horrendous - you would need to add a large crane to your rack and that would just be silly.
slugain
In reply to Ann S:
> (In reply to dangler)
>
> Ok -Solution mark2. I have just used a 10mm rope on a heavy crag sack by taking one end of the rope and tying a fig 8 thru the haul loop-this is NOT a retied fig 8 but the first part of retied fig 8 if you see what I mean. This leaves you with tail of any length you choose. It cinched tight while bumping the bag down the stairs and then shakes loose with sufficient waggling of the rope as the fig 8 has a tendency to want to roll of the end of the rope.
>
>
> Just tried the above fig 8 method off top of Troy quarry and it worked a treat-just don't let the tail end get trapped under the load weight.
>
> Ok -Solution mark2. I have just used a 10mm rope on a heavy crag sack by taking one end of the rope and tying a fig 8 thru the haul loop-this is NOT a retied fig 8 but the first part of retied fig 8 if you see what I mean. This leaves you with tail of any length you choose. It cinched tight while bumping the bag down the stairs and then shakes loose with sufficient waggling of the rope as the fig 8 has a tendency to want to roll of the end of the rope.
>
>
> Just tried the above fig 8 method off top of Troy quarry and it worked a treat-just don't let the tail end get trapped under the load weight.
In reply to dangler: The Mariner Knot.
In reply to Slugain Howff:
WHAT! 35mts is less than we climbed on in 1960's Generally they were 45mts or about 150ft, I currently have a 70mt rope for long sport climbs?
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> Al - you're just an old pounds, shillings and pence kind of guy. The drag on a 35mt rope would be horrendous - you would need to add a large crane to your rack and that would just be silly.
>
> slugain
> [...]
>
> Al - you're just an old pounds, shillings and pence kind of guy. The drag on a 35mt rope would be horrendous - you would need to add a large crane to your rack and that would just be silly.
>
> slugain
WHAT! 35mts is less than we climbed on in 1960's Generally they were 45mts or about 150ft, I currently have a 70mt rope for long sport climbs?
In reply to Al Evans:
MT standing for Metric Ton or Megaton (rather than Metre) amongst other things?
MT standing for Metric Ton or Megaton (rather than Metre) amongst other things?
In reply to Al Evans:
SHORT sport climbs I think you'll find, Al!
> (In reply to Slugain Howff)
> [...]
>
>
> ... I currently have a 70mt rope for long sport climbs?
> [...]
>
>
> ... I currently have a 70mt rope for long sport climbs?
SHORT sport climbs I think you'll find, Al!
In reply to dangler:
There are sailors knots called killiks or something that use only the ropes tension to keep the knot intact. Once the weight is released than rope falls free. I have searched online for an example but must have the wrong spelling or something.
Anyone know what I'm on about and find an example?
There are sailors knots called killiks or something that use only the ropes tension to keep the knot intact. Once the weight is released than rope falls free. I have searched online for an example but must have the wrong spelling or something.
Anyone know what I'm on about and find an example?
In reply to SFM:
Google up killick knot or hitch and you should find some of the animated 'how to tie it' sites. Looks as if it is meant for hauling logs or tying to anchors so may be a bit too grabby.
Google up killick knot or hitch and you should find some of the animated 'how to tie it' sites. Looks as if it is meant for hauling logs or tying to anchors so may be a bit too grabby.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...