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In the case of arriving at the end of a climb that doesn't top out, with two bolts with which to "do your thing".. if you will be belaying your second up from the bolts, what is the quickest/easiest way of creating an equalized anchor, especially in the case of the bolts not being level, or your stance dictating you would be hanging off-centre.
I would expect most would clip a pre-girth hitched daisy chain or somesuch to one bolt before hanging and setting up a more robust solution?
What would the most robust solution in this case be? I was thinking possibly 2x slings, one of them with a knot near the master point to prevent extension, in a magic-x.
I know there would be a dozen different ways of setting this up, what I'm after though is something that can be set up quickly and easily and provides self-equalization as well as obviously being safe.
I would expect most would clip a pre-girth hitched daisy chain or somesuch to one bolt before hanging and setting up a more robust solution?
What would the most robust solution in this case be? I was thinking possibly 2x slings, one of them with a knot near the master point to prevent extension, in a magic-x.
I know there would be a dozen different ways of setting this up, what I'm after though is something that can be set up quickly and easily and provides self-equalization as well as obviously being safe.
In reply to supafly:
Do you mean that you're taking a (hanging)belay at the top of the route?
If so and if you're happy to use a single sling or cord, clip each end of the (60cm)sling to each bolt via a screwgate/quickdraw. Take both strands of the sling and twist one (to prevent the possibility of the triangle of death) and clip a screwgate into both strands and onto your rope/belay loop. That should do it.
Do you mean that you're taking a (hanging)belay at the top of the route?
If so and if you're happy to use a single sling or cord, clip each end of the (60cm)sling to each bolt via a screwgate/quickdraw. Take both strands of the sling and twist one (to prevent the possibility of the triangle of death) and clip a screwgate into both strands and onto your rope/belay loop. That should do it.
In reply to Queequeg:
yes a hanging belay. the twist you're talking of is the magic-x, my only problem with that is the extension of the anchor from single point failure, and tying a knot in a sling at just the right point is cumbersome.
yes a hanging belay. the twist you're talking of is the magic-x, my only problem with that is the extension of the anchor from single point failure, and tying a knot in a sling at just the right point is cumbersome.
In reply to supafly:
assuming it's a bolted multipitch route like you'd find in the alps? clip in with a sling to one bold and clove hitch your rope on the other. If you were climbing on doubles I'd probably clove hitch in both as it is more convenient to adjust the length just so.
assuming it's a bolted multipitch route like you'd find in the alps? clip in with a sling to one bold and clove hitch your rope on the other. If you were climbing on doubles I'd probably clove hitch in both as it is more convenient to adjust the length just so.
In reply to mikeski:
yip that looks good thanks.
quickdraw into each bolt and then a 60cm sling with a magic-x.
yip that looks good thanks.
quickdraw into each bolt and then a 60cm sling with a magic-x.
In reply to Max_01:
in your example, which is also a good alternative, where would you belay system go through, off your harness and slingshot through a carabiner on a single bolt?
in your example, which is also a good alternative, where would you belay system go through, off your harness and slingshot through a carabiner on a single bolt?
In reply to supafly:
Tie a knot in each two threads a short distance from the master point. That will minimise the extension while allowing a small degree of perfect equalizing. The downside is it means two very tight knots in your sling - hard to undo and reduces the dyneema strength.
Tying in with the climbing rope is another good method. Clove-hitches to the bolts will mean no shock loading in the event of one anchor point failing but will reduce the equalizing ability - but that is made up for to a certain extent by the rope being dynamic, unlike the sling.
Tie a knot in each two threads a short distance from the master point. That will minimise the extension while allowing a small degree of perfect equalizing. The downside is it means two very tight knots in your sling - hard to undo and reduces the dyneema strength.
Tying in with the climbing rope is another good method. Clove-hitches to the bolts will mean no shock loading in the event of one anchor point failing but will reduce the equalizing ability - but that is made up for to a certain extent by the rope being dynamic, unlike the sling.
In reply to supafly:
where i've done most climbing, the Ecrins, the bolts are usually joined with a chain or at least a piece of rope, as they are also abseil points and you wouldn't want to ab off just one bolt.
So for belaying a second in autoblock mode, I'd belay directly off one of the bolts, usually the lower one so that there is less shock load of the other anchor in the event of the bolt failing.
where i've done most climbing, the Ecrins, the bolts are usually joined with a chain or at least a piece of rope, as they are also abseil points and you wouldn't want to ab off just one bolt.
So for belaying a second in autoblock mode, I'd belay directly off one of the bolts, usually the lower one so that there is less shock load of the other anchor in the event of the bolt failing.
In reply to supafly:
No, don't use a quickdraw on each one, use a screwgate. The example in the video clips used quickdraws for illustration purposes only, well at least I hope he did.
I was going to post that when I realised he had attached an expert village clip. If you want my advice, you would be wise to not use any of the EV videos's as I think they are pretty crap, and very misleading. Of course, that is my personal opinion.
Stay safe.
> (In reply to mikeski)
>
> yip that looks good thanks.
>
> quickdraw into each bolt and then a 60cm sling with a magic-x.
>
> yip that looks good thanks.
>
> quickdraw into each bolt and then a 60cm sling with a magic-x.
No, don't use a quickdraw on each one, use a screwgate. The example in the video clips used quickdraws for illustration purposes only, well at least I hope he did.
I was going to post that when I realised he had attached an expert village clip. If you want my advice, you would be wise to not use any of the EV videos's as I think they are pretty crap, and very misleading. Of course, that is my personal opinion.
Stay safe.
In reply to supafly: It there anything wrong clipping each end of the sling into the 2 bolts (with screwgates) and just tying and overhand in the middle to make a central point?
In reply to howlingbaboon:
Nothing wrong with it, but the opening post asked for self-equalizing.
> (In reply to supafly) It there anything wrong clipping each end of the sling into the 2 bolts (with screwgates) and just tying and overhand in the middle to make a central point?
Nothing wrong with it, but the opening post asked for self-equalizing.
In reply to supafly:
well no, but if you tie it in the right place it would be equalised and independent. you need more sling than you think for this though, a med one is not normally long enough unless the bolts are v close together
> (In reply to howlingbaboon)
>
> that wouldn't dynamically equalize.
>
> that wouldn't dynamically equalize.
well no, but if you tie it in the right place it would be equalised and independent. you need more sling than you think for this though, a med one is not normally long enough unless the bolts are v close together
In reply to Max_01:
It is worth rading John Longs latest Climbing Anchors book and his thoughts on equalizing - one of the interesting things that came out of a lot of testing is that with the sliding X a failure of one anchor and subsequent extension does not in fact significantly shock load the other anchor point. My big argument on the sliding X always rvolves around redundancy not shock loading.
A good system he advocates is a sling with two knots which isolates the 2 central strands - a locker on each strand gives redundancy and yet provides a lot or travel for pull from different directions as per a sliding X.
For more info look at supertopo.com and rockclimbing.com amongst others and search for equalising anchors
It is worth rading John Longs latest Climbing Anchors book and his thoughts on equalizing - one of the interesting things that came out of a lot of testing is that with the sliding X a failure of one anchor and subsequent extension does not in fact significantly shock load the other anchor point. My big argument on the sliding X always rvolves around redundancy not shock loading.
A good system he advocates is a sling with two knots which isolates the 2 central strands - a locker on each strand gives redundancy and yet provides a lot or travel for pull from different directions as per a sliding X.
For more info look at supertopo.com and rockclimbing.com amongst others and search for equalising anchors
In reply to nz Cragrat:
the problem with that would be if the sling failed right next to the knot you would be weighting a knot that would be very close to slipping through..
the problem with that would be if the sling failed right next to the knot you would be weighting a knot that would be very close to slipping through..
In reply to supafly:
Presumably in this situation it must already be rigged for abseil descent?
Chris
> In the case of arriving at the end of a climb that doesn't top out, with two bolts with which to "do your thing"..
Presumably in this situation it must already be rigged for abseil descent?
Chris
In reply to supafly:
I think the odds of that happening are somewhat astronomical
> (In reply to nz Cragrat)
>
> the problem with that would be if the sling failed right next to the knot you would be weighting a knot that would be very close to slipping through..
>
> the problem with that would be if the sling failed right next to the knot you would be weighting a knot that would be very close to slipping through..
I think the odds of that happening are somewhat astronomical
In reply to supafly:
i think i might have found my answer sifting through a supertopo thread.
so maximum redundancy and self equalizing without being TOO hard to set up..
1) get to the anchors, clip in pre-daisy-chained-to-harness sling to first bolt, hang and clove hitch rope to second bolt.
2) set up sliding x with single sling.
sliding x provides the ultimate in self-equalization and rope/sling provide redudancy.
i think i might have found my answer sifting through a supertopo thread.
so maximum redundancy and self equalizing without being TOO hard to set up..
1) get to the anchors, clip in pre-daisy-chained-to-harness sling to first bolt, hang and clove hitch rope to second bolt.
2) set up sliding x with single sling.
sliding x provides the ultimate in self-equalization and rope/sling provide redudancy.
another general question i have with regards to this.. whilst so much care is being taken to ensure a balanced load etc. etc. has anyone actually experienced an anchor "blowout" and how did you cope with the situation once it did happen?
i'm not talking a marginally placed RP in a shallow crack.. i mean like a bolt, good cam etc.?
i'm not talking a marginally placed RP in a shallow crack.. i mean like a bolt, good cam etc.?
In reply to supafly:
1)alternatively get to the anchor clip a quickdraw to one side of anchor (be that chain or bolt)but instead of clove hitching get your belayer to keep you on belay clip into other with cowstail/sling/krabs. They should do this anyway so if something catastrophic happened you are at least still on belay through your last piece
1)alternatively get to the anchor clip a quickdraw to one side of anchor (be that chain or bolt)but instead of clove hitching get your belayer to keep you on belay clip into other with cowstail/sling/krabs. They should do this anyway so if something catastrophic happened you are at least still on belay through your last piece
In reply to supafly:
Some well-written scepticism regarding this topic:
http://www.psychovertical.com/?goodbycordlette
Echoing Chris Craggs, is there not a chain or similar linking the bolts for the abseil back down. Klahanie ends in the middle of nowhere on a slab, right? Is there any other way off?
Some well-written scepticism regarding this topic:
http://www.psychovertical.com/?goodbycordlette
Echoing Chris Craggs, is there not a chain or similar linking the bolts for the abseil back down. Klahanie ends in the middle of nowhere on a slab, right? Is there any other way off?
In reply to supafly:
In the case of bolts, I suspect that actual witnessed anchor failure has been rarer than unicorn sh*t, except perhaps at sand piles like the Fisher Towers. It is very unclear to me why anyone should spend much time equalising two bolts with any precision unless they are very obviously rusty and/or ancient.
Consider for example some of the pre-linked twin-bolt anchors sold by firms like Fixe (ie http://www.fixeclimbing.com/en/index.php?opcion=31&id_producto=207 ) where the clipping ring is on the lower bolt only. It is extremely difficult to place these such that the chain is in permanent tension, thus the load will mostly go on the lower bolt with the upper bolt functioning only as a back-up. Yet no-one worries about lowering-off, abseiling or belaying from the single ring.
> another general question i have with regards to this.. whilst so much care is being taken to ensure a balanced load etc. etc. has anyone actually experienced an anchor "blowout" and how did you cope with the situation once it did happen?
In the case of bolts, I suspect that actual witnessed anchor failure has been rarer than unicorn sh*t, except perhaps at sand piles like the Fisher Towers. It is very unclear to me why anyone should spend much time equalising two bolts with any precision unless they are very obviously rusty and/or ancient.
Consider for example some of the pre-linked twin-bolt anchors sold by firms like Fixe (ie http://www.fixeclimbing.com/en/index.php?opcion=31&id_producto=207 ) where the clipping ring is on the lower bolt only. It is extremely difficult to place these such that the chain is in permanent tension, thus the load will mostly go on the lower bolt with the upper bolt functioning only as a back-up. Yet no-one worries about lowering-off, abseiling or belaying from the single ring.
In reply to tobyfk:
No more than they worry about dogging a route, falling then getting lowered back to the ground - yes I know you could argue there are more bolts below you but the failure of one may not be enough to keep you off the deck in some cases
No more than they worry about dogging a route, falling then getting lowered back to the ground - yes I know you could argue there are more bolts below you but the failure of one may not be enough to keep you off the deck in some cases
In reply to nz Cragrat: I don't understand this thread, surely if you are using slings you are just transferring the problem of getting them back to your (possibly less experienced) second?
In reply to supafly:
Having followed the whole cordalette/ropelette/sliding X thing for a few years on rockclimbing.com my take on it all is I don´t want to be anywhere near anyone using any of this stuff, and certainly don´t want to climb with them!
Even your question is as confused as most of the systems, you want to set up an equalised belay but then you want it to be self-equalising, which is it to be?
The easiest is as Max01 says and what I´d do 99% of the time.
The best and most robust way with a single rope is up from you to one bolt, clove hitch, across to the other bolt, clove hitch, back to a fig 8 on a krab on your belay loop, under load the slip in the tie-in knot and the lower fig.8 will equalise enough for you.
Having followed the whole cordalette/ropelette/sliding X thing for a few years on rockclimbing.com my take on it all is I don´t want to be anywhere near anyone using any of this stuff, and certainly don´t want to climb with them!
Even your question is as confused as most of the systems, you want to set up an equalised belay but then you want it to be self-equalising, which is it to be?
The easiest is as Max01 says and what I´d do 99% of the time.
The best and most robust way with a single rope is up from you to one bolt, clove hitch, across to the other bolt, clove hitch, back to a fig 8 on a krab on your belay loop, under load the slip in the tie-in knot and the lower fig.8 will equalise enough for you.
In reply to nz Cragrat:
Far from it. By putting a knot in the sling you weaken it dramatically and the most likely point of failure is at the knot.
Sliding X for me. If you're really worried about your sling being a single point of failure maybe it's time to buy some new slings... Equally if the failure of either anchor bolts is a serious concern I'd start looking for more anchors - clip first bolt on the second pitch (assuming we're talking multipitch or you'd probably just have lowered off anyway).
For top-roping sport stuff I normally use two quickdraws or a sliding X set-up - single wiregate on each bolt and two opposed wiregates for the rope. I have this rigged and ready on my harness before setting off. No problem with non-lockers on the bolts since they're redundant. Two non-lockers (probably the safer option) or one locker for the rope.
> I think the odds of that happening are somewhat astronomical
Far from it. By putting a knot in the sling you weaken it dramatically and the most likely point of failure is at the knot.
Sliding X for me. If you're really worried about your sling being a single point of failure maybe it's time to buy some new slings... Equally if the failure of either anchor bolts is a serious concern I'd start looking for more anchors - clip first bolt on the second pitch (assuming we're talking multipitch or you'd probably just have lowered off anyway).
For top-roping sport stuff I normally use two quickdraws or a sliding X set-up - single wiregate on each bolt and two opposed wiregates for the rope. I have this rigged and ready on my harness before setting off. No problem with non-lockers on the bolts since they're redundant. Two non-lockers (probably the safer option) or one locker for the rope.
In reply to simon geering:
the only problems i would have with that set up is obviously the lack of equalization and getting the knot out after hanging off it for a while is a pain.
plus getting the desired pull in exactly the right direction is pretty hard.
the only problems i would have with that set up is obviously the lack of equalization and getting the knot out after hanging off it for a while is a pain.
plus getting the desired pull in exactly the right direction is pretty hard.
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