UKC

In this new mini-series 'Relocate' we take a look at different areas of Britain and what they are like to live and climb in.

"The Tobermory-bright buildings line the main street, flanked by youths in Adidas tracksuits and hooded tops... Roll-up cigarettes and fried breakfasts in Pete's Eats have been replaced with off road prams and cappuccinos..."

says UKC Editor Jack Geldard.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1553

In reply to UKC Articles:

Excellent article Jack.....i hope the upcoming ones have the same detailed research. Also worth noting that I heard from someone who works at UofB that it has the highest number (or %) of foreign students of any UK uni...doesn't sound quite right for such a small uni....can anyone clarify?

In reply to Morgan Woods: Are the English students counted as foreign?

In reply to UKC Articles:

I liked the article, I thought it was well written. The stuff on house prices seemed obsessively comprehensive but maybe a bit about rental options would be more useful to those planning to move. Also a bit about wall available would be good as I'd imagine these must be fundamental to the sanity and well being of people in the area.

In reply to Removed User:

Lol!

In reply to Morgan Woods: May be, we have always had a very large quota of spanish portugese Greek students especially. ESF funding for post grads (now ended) also packed them in. I doubt they count english as foreign. There is also a lot of Irish.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Good point about the footpaths Jack. The issues around the Pass path are a farce.

And the circular walk around the lake should be formalised. I either go along the lakeside railway (which is technically trespass maybe?)or up through the quarries and woods past Cae Mabon and down the Fachwen lane to Bryn Refail, but these are both down to local knowlwedge. Its a classic low level walk that Im sure a lot of visitors would do if they knew it existed.

All in all - excellent article. be nice to have one documenting the madness of the 80's as well (Dolly disco anyone?). A few years ago Gwion Hughes spoke of S4C maybe making a docudrama of the 'beris slate/dole/drugs/party scene, but it never seemed to happen. Maybe the appeal would have been for too limited an audience?

PS Cant be smug when introducing people to Caban for the first time now - but a place that certainly deserving of the publicity.

In reply to UKC Articles:
Is it me or does this article read like a list of advertisements and doesnt actually tell you much about living there.
For example it fails to mention that work is hard to come by (and it was when I lived there), winter can be very grim esp if you dont have a car, if you dont want to buy places to rent in the village are hard to get but further out is better, etc etc etc
It also missed a lot of the plus point!!

In reply to UKC Articles:

An interesting article concept. Clever.

Perhaps I read the article too fast, but I didn't notice any reference to schools. Presumably those "off-road prams" actually contain children? I believe there are one or two quirks of schooling in North Wales that might be relevant to the prospective resident, no?

In reply to Tyler: Agree, info about indoor walls would have been useful, but I would like to counter the age old myth of climbing being excessively limited by bad weather. Since I've lived in N Wales I have managed to climb outside much more than I ever did when I lived in Yorkshire. Llanberis might have a high rainfall, but out on the coast the reverse is true (Colwyn Bay for example has lower rainfall than Sheffield, and certainly lower than Hathersage).

I even made it through one winter without climbing indoors at all, and that was getting out 2 or 3 times a week. There is no way I could have done that in Yorkshire.

Another ommission from the article is a mention of Caernarfon - it really has improved vastly in the last 5 years. Bangor seems like a ghost town by comparison these days. Go and check out the Anglesey Arms down by the Castle front - good beer, friendly atmosphere and a fantastic location.

And then there is the language/schools issue. Most incoming climbers I know haven't made much effort to learn Welsh, but the ones that do will see a very different perspective on life in Wales. It's not an easy language to grasp, but I found it very rewarding in the end. I'm not fluent at all, but I can understand most stuff I hear and read. My kids (aged 6 and 8) are fully bilingual and I'm sure they will find it easier to learn other languages as they grow older.

In the end, N Wales' greatest asset from a climbing point of view is the volume and diversity of climbing combined with a large, friendly/inclusive climbing scene - nowhere else in the UK comes near, not even the Lakes. I can't imagine living anywhere else now.

In reply to David Hooper:

>The council owned business site, the Glyn Ronway, has several ready-to-go industrial plots, with roads, street lighting, foundations and amenities all in place and businesses queuing up to lease them. The site was renovated in 2000, ready for industry, but has since stood empty and the plots are now slowly becoming over-grown and derelict.

Now that would put me off ever thinking of relocating a business to somewhere with narrowminded insular planners who refuse to use what has been paid for with grants.
Perhaps the planners should have to pay for the estate, they may be more forthcoming with planning permission then.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

In reply to UKC Articles:

Which of the Cilan Crags is that Jack?

Looks like DWS possibilities under the ramp onthe left...

Hose

In reply to hoseyb:

Cilan Head:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=4145

In reply to hoseyb: Tom's right it's Cilan Main. The crag on the far right is Zawn 2 and Multi Storey Wall. In the middle is Cilan Main with Terrorhawk etc. The nearest bit of crag (that looks the biggest - but actually is a bit smaller than Cilan Main) in Cilan North, that's just above the platform I stood on to take the shot.

The crag down and left that you are showing a perhaps, shall we say, misguided interest in DWS'ing is the Lip Trip. It is bigger than it looks.

Cheers.

Jack

In reply to pigeonjim:

Indeed. I've been unemployed since October and have only just gotten a job. And I've been applying for all sorts of random jobs.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Please, please do not publish one of these articles about NW lake district, let's keep it quiet.

In reply to UKC Articles: Interersting but very english centric. Nothing about the welsh language or culture. surely this is a vital consideration (both positive and negative).

Simon Panton is doing it right - but many others may be getting it wrong and if we carry on we all lose an important part of our heritage.

In reply to chris wyatt:

Lots of stuff about Welsh heritage here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=5

This guidebook is bi-lingual, split betwixt Welsh and English, from the photo-captions to the introductions, to the well-researched history and all the problem information. Simon has set deep roots in North Wales and this is one part of his contribution to sustaining the Welsh language, a noble cause indeed. However as so much effort and ink have been put into sustaining the Welsh language it would have been illuminating to read Simon's personal reasons for producing this bi-lingual guidebook. Such an explanation is missing. I asked Simon why the guide is in Welsh. Initially he said he that he didn't want to put an explanation in the book: "it just is, it's hard to explain if you don't live here".

There are political reasons. The translation was paid for by Snowdonia Active - which Simon works for. This organisation promotes the outdoor experience in North Wales; their sub-agenda is to put a Welsh slant on outdoor recreation that is predominantly anglicised. "Politically it is very important," Simon says, "and eighty per cent of the people in North Wales speak Welsh. It is just natural for the area". He expands, "There is a tendency by some language pressure groups and loud-mouthed individuals to use the language in Wales as a divisive tool. Yet equally there are many progressive-thinking Welsh speakers who view the integration of newcomers, and with it the positive development of Wales' culture and language, as a good thing. My book is just a small, but hopefully important bridge between the outdoor community and the indigenous community. At least that was the plan - I guess time will tell."

The tipping point for Simon came one evening at a local climbing wall climbing with his friends, a few years after Simon had made Llanberis his home. All of them, apart from Simon, were speaking Welsh: "That clinched it". Iwan Irfon Jones did the translation and it provided many challenges,

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Not sure if that's correct or not. Gwynedd itself has an average of 69% as of the 2001 census, but extends all the way to mid Wales. North Wales was 40% in 2001 (as far as I can tell) and is low along the coast, put places like Caernarfon reach 88%.

In reply to Touching Centauri:


Whatever the figures, articles like this encouraging people to re-locate will have a negative effect, unless incomers are willing to learn the language (Well done / Da iawn Simon!)

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


My impression is that the more recent Ground Up guides are mono-lingual. True or false? If true, what changed Simon's mind?

BTW Mick: "split betwixt" is wrong. That would imply a guide that alternates languages for different slices of content not one that is dual-language throughout.

In reply to chris wyatt: I disagree. You can be a non-Welsh speaker and still be part of the culture. Most who have learnt Welsh have predominantly been 'forced' into it by having kids which will inevitably be welsh speaking. We intent to learn for that reason. Most people I know here have a basic grasp of Welsh.

Generally I've not found not speaking welsh to be a hinderance at all socially, most of my mates here are locals so I think I've fully integrated in the area. In fact the reason we love it here is it is just so bloody friendly and almost everyone you meet has similar interests. I don't think we've ever made so many friends so quickly in one place.

For me there's no getting it right and wrong as you put it. The only bit which would be wrong would be stopping your kids from developing the language as its such a unique opportunity to grow up in a bilingual society. But by living here, spending money here, integrating in society you don't have a negative impact on the culture at all. You have as much a negative impact does as a Welshman taking a job in England i.e. sod all.

Re the jobs, that's an issue, but there's also a recession on at the moment. Most I know who work as freelance guiding/leading etc seem to keep their heads above water.

Chris how do you feel Llanberis has lost its cultural heritage?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: "My book is just a small, but hopefully important bridge between the outdoor community and the indigenous community. At least that was the plan - I guess time will tell."

I know what he means here, but I'm not sure that's stated in the best way, it suggests a division exists between the indigenous community and the outdoor community, I don't think that really exists, especially not nowadays anyway. I've only lived here for the last 3 years so maybe historically there was, but I know quite a few people from the 'indigenous community' who enjoy the outdoors in some form, climbing or fell running.

So far, maybe I've been lucky, but I haven't really experienced any division in the community.

In reply to UKC Articles: Really interesting article Jack - I hope it becomes a longer series. One suggestion I would have reading the comments from the chap at Bangor uni - if people are thinking of relocating because of their outdoor interests, this doesn't necessarily mean moving to a rural area (Llanberis) or even a town like Bangor. Perhaps the series could also cover some cities that are in easy reach of climbing - I think you said someone is going to do Sheffield. My experience of moving from rural England to Glasgow to study, was one of the best decision I ever made. A huge, vibrant city with public transport accessible climbing, ranging from bouldering to winter climbing.

In reply to UKC Articles:

>>Roll-up cigarettes and fried breakfasts in Pete's Eats have been replaced >>with off road prams and cappuccinos in the nearby Caban café...

Coffee Smoffee

Give me a pint of tea in Pete's Eats any day

In reply to TobyA: Agreed Toby, we're going to do a few places and see how the series goes. We've got London coming up in a couple of weeks!

Cheers

Jack

In reply to Tyler: Hi Tyler,

Yes the climbing walls was a big omission!

I have added a section in the fact file at the end with links to the local walls.

The area is well served with climbing walls:

• The main one being the ( http://www.beaconclimbing.com ) Beacon Climbing Wall


• Plas y Brenin also have a climbing wall: ( http://www.pyb.co.uk/facilities/facilities-detail.php?id=6" )


• And on Anglesey is the ( http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafvalley/stationfacilities/climbing.cfm ) Indefatigable Wall

Cheers,

Jack

In reply to IainRUK:

I have been learning Welsh since I moved to live here full time nearly 17 years ago. I lived and worked in a community whose first language was predominantly Welsh and felt quite simply that it was the right thing to do. I was not forced into it at all, and nor were the majority of the dozen or so people who were one the very first course I attended at Coleg Menai.
Since then I have married and we have three Children , and its fair to say that young children also make it easier to learn, but shouldn't be the only reason for learning the language.As for integrating, I guess its a personal take, but I feel more comfortable and 'integrated' being able to talk to friends and aquaintances in their own first language.
Chris Rowlands
DMM Brand Manager

In reply to Chris Rowlands - DMM: I agree re talking the first language, our neighbour struggles with English and you do feel guilty when he's obviously translating but then again we moved into an empty house so I think he's just relieved he finally has neighbours rather than occassional use as a holiday home. With the younger generation they are equally comfortable in either, I suppose they've grown up in more of a bilingual society than the older generation when only welsh was really spoken.

I used quotation marks around 'forced' to highlight that wasn't really the term I meant, I just couldn't think of a better term, but yes I think that has been a driving factor. I know very few with kids who haven't picked up the language.

But then I know very few who have been here for a long period of time and haven't picked up any welsh at all, my brother lived in the area and speaks fluently but he was dating a local lass in a very welsh speaking family.

We're also into that second generation in the area, people who moved in around the time you did and their kids have been brought up as welsh speakers and are part of the community so I don't think there has been any split.

At a local fell race there will be many of the immigrants, many of them climbers and many 'indigenous' runners. I just see no split at all. People get on, if you have similar interests and outlook language is no barrier anyway. I played for a few years in local football which was all welsh speaking but footballs football and you soon pick up the welsh meaning of words because of the context of the situations it is used in.

As I said I intend to learn but I can give examples of people who speak little welsh who have been here 15-20 years who are totally integrated in the area.

In reply to UKC Articles:
Without wanting to turn the thread into (yet another) why-bother-with-welsh thread, I would just like to point out that I'm sure that the efforts made by such relatively high-profile local climbers such as Simon and Chris is appreciated by more people than perhaps even they realise. Respect is a hard thing to quantify, especially in such a community where incomers contribute so much (either as tourists or as new residents).

Back on thread, I liked the idea behind the article but it did come across as a bit of advert, I'm sure there are plenty of negative points about living in Llanberis.

Also if the series were extended I'd like to see more information about the more infrequently mentioned areas - an article about relocating to Sheffield I can't see being that interesting, as many people will have already a fairly good idea of what to expect. Whereas an article about relocating to somewhere in Cornwall, or Yorkshire, or Scotland, or South Wales, or anywhere where there is good climbing but perhaps not such a famous climbing scene, would be more interesting.

And if you're thinking about extending it abroad, I'd love to write one about Barcelona (or Catalunya)!

In reply to Alun:

Has anyone said that? It's more that there is no split and the 'advert' won't have a further negative impact on the area. I just don't think this has been the case, Chris and Simon are examples, but they are not the exceptions at all.

Most people will naturally pick up welsh, kids will aid that, but I don't think anyone has said there's no need to try to learn, I just don't think it's a huge barrier. It certainly hasn't been an impediment for me making friends outside of llanberis who are welsh speaking.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

suprising however that there isn't a schoolroom type facility in the town itself.....or is Beacon not that far away?

In reply to UKC Articles:

Interesting that the guy who moved into Llanberis from the Lakes finds it so quiet.... it is !
North Wales has never quite got tourism in the same way as the Lakes. Probably because the educated and entrepreneurial Welsh have buggered off to Liverpool and Manchester leaving places like Bethesda,Carnarfon, Llanberis and Bangor as socially deprived holes.Albeit holes which have attracted the climbing immigrants who Jack G describes.
When I go to the Lakes I'm amazed at how busy it is compared to North Wales. The roads and towns are heaving. Even when I'm in a part of the Lakes on an iffy day when I expect to have the place to myself I find myself falling over people.
By contrast I can always find crags and hill walks in N Wales where I know I won't see a soul.

I would never recommend living in North Gwynedd to anyone to get back to the theme. Far better to live in a nice part of north Wales and spend half an hour in the car than live amongst the druggies and scallies of North Gwynedd.

So you can buy a four bedroomed house for £120.000 in Llanberis....That much !

I was fluent French, had a basic German and Spanish so felt pretty confident I would just pick it up. That was quite definitely not the case, despite being immersed in the language around me. I had to make an effort.
As with many things common sense should prevail, but personally I feel more comfortable making the effort so as to join in conversations when everybody else is a welsh speaker doesn't then revert to their second choice language.
To be bilingual living here is to me the sensible thing whether you are born and bred here or have moved to the area from outside.
Just to reoeat these are my own personal opinions.
Chris Rowlands
DMM Brand Manager

In reply to Jonno: A bit harsh, I know a fair few north gwynedd lads, even some from Bleaneau, who are bloody clever and have stayed here. many do move away but many want to stay. A lot have moved into teaching.

I get the feeling the lakes has suffered more than north wales from loss of identity, but that's just based on a few visits.

In reply to UKC Articles:
Here's my idea
In line with the UK Citizenship Test, anybody wishing to relocate to Llanberis should sit a 100 question exam.....with the final question being...are you willing to Learn Welsh?

In reply to Sl@te Head: If it's in line with the 'life in the UK test then only immigrants would pass. The wife did it and I'd have never got in!

In reply to Jonno: I disagree. I could quite happily stay in north Gwynedd for a long time yet. Not in Bangor, but somewhere like Capel perhaps. It isn't going to happen - as I suspect in a couple of years my girlfriend will want to move some place else. If I was single however, I would almost certainly stay.

It is funny how some places here have cornered the market (Betws, Beddgelert) whilst others have let it slide by them for whatever reason. My first visit to Llanberis shocked me. Here was this place I'd read and heard so much about, and I was expecting a sort of Welsh Keswick. Nope...

In reply to UKC Articles: Though on the subject of Caernarfon the waterfront is lovely now. It's all been done up rather nicely.

In reply to Jonno:

>North Wales has never quite got tourism in the same way as the Lakes.

Oh yes it has, just look at the caravans and boats on the A55 every weekend. It is a different type of tourism though, more doing things or chilling out rather than going to look at scenery, where the lakes beats it hands down.

The old slate towns got hit hard when the quarries closed, and it took a while to develop new work for the people who live there. The Uni at Bangor helps, without it the work situation and improvements would not get done.

Look down the coast on the Lleyn for sporting activities on water, the Menai straights area has some development but needs more.

Anyone moving to a country should try to learn the language to some extent where it is the main language. I would not have wars with DonaldM pushing Gaelic if it was the main language in Scotland, in case someone thinks I am using double speak.

In reply to Chris Rowlands - DMM: im in the process (it seems to be a very drawn out one though) of moving to north wales. my intention is to learn at least some welsh when there; i speak french and spanish and had hoped that familiarity with other languages / language learning might help but from what youre saying that may not be the case - can you say why not?

In reply to IainRUK: while i dont live there i do know a few climbers from the area and spend much of my climbing time there. when i reflect on what the climbing scene is there i think something along the lines of "theres lots of climbers and people into the outdoors in n wales doing what they want / living there while nobody local is in any way involved or interested and so these people (the climbers) who aspire to be part of the place arent actually that integrated."

so yes, it is easy to see that there may be a division and if i want to be really negative its analogous to colonial / landed gentry scenarios i can think of. is there anything in this or have i got completely the wrong idea?

In reply to ksjs:
or have i got completely the wrong idea?

yes.

In reply to ksjs: I may see things slightly differently as I'm mainly involved in fell running which is fairnly dominated by locals but has a very inclusive atmosphere. Look at the young climbers in the area though?

In reply to UKC Articles: Cant wait for the day I move back to N Wales. Lived in a few different spots up there, and my 2 years on the Great Orme was the best for me. Great weather, top crags/bouldering, shops, A55, very close to the hills and awesome views

In reply to ksjs: I would say things are much more integrated than they used to be. When I first moved to Wales it struck me how a kid growing up in Birmingham probably had more opportunity to get involved in outdoor activities in Wales than a kid growing up in Caernarfon.

The reasons why things have changed:

1. The climbing walls can take a lot of credit for opening the door to indigenous people.

2. Foot and Mouth - although a disaster for Outdoor businesses at the time it did change everything, as suddenly everbody realised how important Outdoor activity culture was to the local economy and thus the local communities.

I recall years back one prominent local politician saying that he didn't want the countryside turned into a 'playground'. Yet I noticed that the same politician was invited to the recent BMC agm at Plas Y Brenin. Actually he didn't turn up, but lots of other prominent Welsh politicians and important people (such as boss of First Hydro) did - that would not have happened in the pre-foot and mouth years.

My bilingual bouldering guide probably drew in a few folk and helped to build a few bridges and perhaps changed a few perceptions of the climbing community, but its influence is dwarfed by the above two factors.

And then there is the internet - information is much more freely available/accessible - that has got to have opened things up a bit.

In reply to ksjs: I reckon you will have an easier ride than somebody who is monoglot. Your brain is already used to switching into a parallel language.

That said, Welsh is tricky. Although it has solid rules (i.e. once you know the alphabet you should be able to pronounce any word put in front of you), it also has mutations and the killer for your typical English speaker: several different words for yes and no!

Anyway, I'm sure you'll be fine. Top tip for speeding your ear up: listen to Radio Cymru in the evenings. Like most radio stations it is awful during the day, but the night time shift is, or at least it used to be, pretty good.

It also depends where you work. I went off the boil with my Welsh for a few years because I was working from home, but recently I have been sharing an office which contains two first language Welsh speakers and it has really helped get me back into it, just eaves dropping on their work conversations.

In reply to Simon Panton nr: The North West Wales Outdoor Recreation Partnership NWWORP has also moved things on with a load of Climbing / Kayaking / Adventure clubs being set up for locals + loads of funding for locals to gain NGB's

In reply to Sl@te Head: Agreed, but you can trace NWWORP back to Foot and Mouth and the subsequent formation of Snowdonia-Active.

In reply to Sl@te Head: 2 mates have accessed some local funding initiative to set up a fell walking/running club at 2 local schools, sounds a brilliant idea. The walking club has been a huge success; the other day they were taking 30 odd 10-13 year olds up Snowdon when I met them, they were all loving it.

One thing about the language, it makes freelance work for ML's?SPA's etc so much easier to come by.

In reply to IainRUK: I set up a climbing club for my local Primary School (Menai Bridge) which is going strong, we have accessed loads of funding for Kit and training for volunteers. The kids love it, we were oversubscribed initilally so had to limit it to the older pupils.

In reply to Sl@te Head: BTW did you get the place? It's got a sold sign up?

In reply to IainRUK: Hi Iain. I wasn't saying it was essential to learn welsh - I think I was just trying to constructively criticise the article for not raising the issue. That said I hope you do!

Down here in the south things are somewhat different but I'll wait for the article about Swansea before I go off on that one

In reply to IainRUK:

No....didn't pass the test to get into Nant Peris!!!

(We made an offer which was turned down, they sold it to someone from Liverpool I think)

In reply to UKC Articles:

It will be interesting to read John Redhead's 'Colonists Out' take on living in North Gwynedd when it's published in the future.
His article from a couple of years back where he felt he and his family had become victims of a form of neanderthal racism which forced him to flee to France doesn't paint an encouraging picture of the Llanberis scene.

I remember a senior Psychologist working within the health service in N Wales telling me casually that 'of course Blaenau Ffestiniog has the highest suicide rate in the UK', although Bridgend appears to have taken that title.

Professionals working within the health and social services sector of my acquaintance have described appalling health and social problems in Caernarfon. Comparable with the poorer inner city areas.

The difference between the Lake District and North Snowdonia is the grinding poverty. Although there are patches of indigenous deprivation in Cumbria, it's essentially far more affluent and those who move in are generally better educated and better off. This applies to a certain extent in N Wales but the wealth and entrepreneurial zeal is not as strong or widespread as the Lakes.
That's why for every Betws y Coed we have three Bethesdas, Ffestiniogs and Caernarfons.

In reply to Simon Panton nr:

sorry but i have to correct one thing about SA's beginnings . . . .
Richard from Llanrug OEC and myself called and chaired the first meeting at the Heights out of which SA grew - the meetings then moved to PYB and I could not afford to travel there and back ... and after Easter in the Verdon we moved to the coast..

as for where to move in Snowdonia -- I can recommend the Ardudwy and Haerlech coastal strip.. what with a new 5* resort hotel being given the go ahead and redevelopment of Coleg Harlech ... great place to move to now...

In reply to Jonno:

It's there, but you don't see it if you stay in the National Park. I spent a while in about 2003 working near Distington, just a few miles west of the western Lake District boundary. It was pretty rough. The coastal towns aren't exactly great either - give me Bangor anyday.

In reply to Snorkers:

We're not talking about the admitedly shitty parts of West Cumbria. We're talking about towns and villages within the national park.

In reply to Simon Panton nr: i get the impression, from road signs, listening to it and from what those who speak it say, that Welsh is very distinct in structure from what im familiar with so some effort will be required.

listening to radio, watching tv or even reading a book in whatever language youre trying to learn seem to help massively providing you have some basic knowledge of whats being said; the brains capacity for picking up a language / structures while not really knowing whats going on is pretty amazing. i guess though there isnt much that makes you learn as quickly as chatting with / listening to friends.

anyone any tips on where to go for beginners courses?

In reply to Simon Panton nr: if i do make it there i really hope it is an improving picture: i dont want to be viewed as part of some kind of accepted but distinct society.

In reply to UKC Articles: I was back in Llanberis last month for the first time in years. Great to be in Wales (even if it did the usual and rained on the party) but the town is dying on its feet. Sure the Caban is nice (even if the coffee is at London prices) and it shows the way tourism must go if the area is to benefit from tourist cash but local business seems to have been bypassed by any form of assistance/advice - that, or has ignored same comprehensively, with a very few notable exceptions. The hotel I stayed at was perfectly ok but clearly struggling. It needed a financial boost to get it up to standard. When I mentioned some alternative ideas for running the hotel I immediately ran into a chill wall of incomprehension and hostility (who was I to tell them etc - they may have a point). Whilst too many local people will not make the leap to the 21st century the Pass and its environs will struggle and the Lakes and Cornwall will prosper - which is not so good for those seeking jobs (but ok for buying property). Who would have thought, even 10 years ago, that the Padarn was doomed? Now the Heights holds sway (with inflated beer prices) but even the bright spots will suffer if people stay away from a dying town. Other centres appear to fair little better and Eric cannot sell his caff.

Moving to N Wales is a fine ambition - but what it needs is some folk with savvy and the drive to develop business in the area - which makes the lakes look more attractive, I fear.

In reply to Jonno:

Ah yes, John's wonderful article. In it he displays a shameless lack of humility, an almost complete lack of empathy or any ability to understand another persons point of view, and an embarrasing naïvety into country and village life in general. This arrogance undoubtedly contributed towards his brilliance as a climber, but frankly it makes it difficult to take any other part of him seriously.

In reply to Alun: Sort of agree, however I also know who he was on about and he was right about her!

In reply to Alun: His article was also referring to Nant Peris not Llanberis, permafrost of the heart, referring to the lack of sun. I like the village, it lacks the community of Llanberis but that's inevitable because there is only the pub here.

In reply to Alun:


Really? Anyway, people can judge for themselves:
http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Living_the_Dream__John_Redhead_250.html

In reply to tobyfk:

Indeed, thanks for re-posting it, it has cheered my morning up a treat.

I also find it strange that he claims to identify with the Catalan culture after feeling so ostracised in Wales. The Catalan attitude to protection of language and culture, their desire for an independent nation, and their hatred of the conquering language/culture (in this case, Spanish) far outstrips anything you see in Wales. Perhaps if John were Spanish, he might not have feel quite as at home as he does (although the article is several years old, I'd be interested to hear whether his opinions have changed.

By the way, I don't wish to diss Catalan hospitality. Learn to speak a few words in Catalan, and they become your best friends. Specially once they know you're Welsh

Anyway that's another thread. Apologies for going off-topic.

In reply to Alun:

Great article. Easy to see how he could be worried that an English child growing up in North Wales may meet racism at school (the way I read it):

"The Welsh language is a major problem, especially here in Gwynedd, where in the local schools English is often considered a 'filthy' language. This is where racism takes hold ... an issue that every 'outsider' who has trawled through the Welsh (Gwynedd) educational system is aware of. There are many 'victims' here."

From my experience it occurs in English comprehensives just as much though.

In reply to Alun:

Redhead is an enigma alright. Someone I'm attracted to as an outspoken,controversial artist,outcast,romantic,rebel,non conformist,egotist etc.
He's not someone I could imagine ever being bosom buddies with or being a barrel of laughs. Perhaps he takes himself a tad too seriously but then no one is perfect.

I can certainly understand why he would encounter hostility given his apparent hostility to the Welsh language and indigenous culture. After bad experiences with a neighbouring farmer a number of years ago I've always made a point of integrating as seamlessly as I can into the local community where I'm now part of the furniture.
I imagine it would not be Redhead's bohemianism that locals would find hard to take. I imagine they would find him arrogant and condescending towards them and no one likes being looked down on as ignorant or patronised.

North Wales or perhaps just North Gwynedd was not the right place for him. Sounds like he's happier and better off where he is ?

In reply to UKC Articles: Just beware of Plaid Cymru...they'd like nothing more than Snowdonia to be treated as any other piece 'of real estate', witness the large white, inappropriate building on the right of your first picture. Having deprived local communities of a connecting bus service, whilst subsidising their air flights from Cardiff, nothing would give them more pleasure than see Snowdonia covered with factory units....if it only those mountains weren't in the way!!

In reply to Dave Dear: A bit harsh, Euro DPC has been great for the valley, od knows how many locals they employ, as an employer they seem to have a good name here for treating staff well. Locals have to work.

In reply to IainRUK: I'm sure you're right, but nevertheless Plaid Cymru have always idealogically been opposed to the 'National Park', as it is seen as an 'English or Saes' imposition, and Gogledd Cymru is their fiefdom. Many in Plaid Cymru openly question the value of having National Parks in any part of Wales. Just a thought...

In reply to pigeonjim:

This article is an 'advertorial'

I spent a few hours in Llnaberis last year and what I saw was lots of greasy fry ups being consumned in Pete's, there were a few hippy types who looked like they were chasing a nostalgic dream, a lot of run down buildings that were boarded up or hadn't been painted in ages, not an appealing place to live.

Why does Betws y Coed pull off the attractive town thing and LLanberis come off so badly?

In reply to tradmania:

Not much of a place 'feel' at Betws though - but that's only speaking as an occaional visitor. Llanberis compared to some Lakes towns would seem valid eg Keswick or Consiton (old mining industry, successful and pleasant tourist village/town?

In reply to Bulls Crack:
Betws feels like a Macarthur Glen Outlet dumped on a beauty spot... Great for gear shopping, for Bistro Betws-y-Coed and a few other spots but it lacks a community feel to it. The absence of a proper pub doesn't help...

In reply to Dave Dear: I agree with concerns re plaid. I worry they get support because they want independance rather than their actual policies.