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Is it ok to practice sports routes 'beyond' your abili

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spindrift 14 May 2009
I have been using a ceag relatively recently bolted in North Wales. Its very handy to get to and for myself and my wife, easy to get a few hours in and pumped. The other day I by chance met the 'creator' of the crag who seemed pleased that I, my wife and our friend were climbing 'his?' routes. This was however until I led a quality 6b+ route, one which my wife and friend were keen to attempt and learn the moves on. Soon after, I was aware that the 'creator' was scoffing at my friends attempts to climb the route. In a brief discusion it soon became apparent that he strongly disapproved of individuals 'polishing' his climb and that in his estimation the climb was too hard for their ability. He added that he had made similar approaches to employees of PyBrenin and their staff. The fact is that our 'team' had completed a 5+,6 and 3 6a+'s and it wasnt that far off their ability. I feel this guy was quite out of order, does not own the crag, and should the route become polished, should see it as a mark of satisfaction to his find. He certainly left my wife very annoyed and our friend felt the creator was very conceited. So beware if heading to Penmaen Head!What do you think!
 Adam Lincoln 14 May 2009
In reply to spindrift:

Assuming this isn't a troll, i would have told him in no uncertain terms to get stuffed!
 Lemony 14 May 2009
In reply to spindrift: I think I'd have told him where he could shove his condescension.
 54ms 14 May 2009
In reply to spindrift:

I thought that was the whole point of sport climbing?
 BenTiffin 14 May 2009
In reply to spindrift: Surely this is what you do in order to achieve a red point at the grade you are hoping to climb.

Ben
spindrift 14 May 2009
In reply to BenTiffin:
That is what I thought. What annoyed me was the way he took the shine off what had been a great day. My wife came down off the climb and we headed out of their sight. I wouldnt mind but as we were leaving his partner was hanging on the rope trying to complete a move! We more nothing but pleasant towards them despite our personal thoughts.
 Enty 14 May 2009
In reply to spindrift:
> (In reply to BenTiffin)
> What annoyed me was the way he took the shine off what had been a great day.

Two ways to look at this. That would actually have made my day if a knob had approached me and said that.
Did you sulk all the way home or laugh all the way home?

Enty
spindrift 14 May 2009
In reply to Enty:
Wifey said she was more 'gob smacked'. I just felt like I should 'smack gob' but refrained and impressed myself with my pleasantness towards the knob.
 Mick Ward 14 May 2009
In reply to spindrift:

> I feel this guy was quite out of order, does not own the crag...

Agree.

Mick
 Mr G 14 May 2009
If you don't ever push your grade how would anyone improve? Well done for keeping your cool and being pleasent.
spindrift 14 May 2009
In reply to spindrift:
My alternative thought on this is if he had been next to us 'downstairs LPT' then I m damn sure he would not have said a work! Its the done thing.
spindrift 14 May 2009
In reply to spindrift:
My alternative thought on this is if he had been next to us 'downstairs LPT' then I m damn sure he would not have said a word! Its the done thing.
 3 Names 14 May 2009
In reply to spindrift: Sounds like a right Twit
 petestack 14 May 2009
In reply to spindrift:
> What do you think!

No, of course not! It's just not done. And Steve McClure and Dave MacLeod *never* fall off...

 Jamie B 14 May 2009
In reply to spindrift:

If you dont want a climb to get polished, dont bolt it.

Polished easy(ish) sport climbs are a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 richprideaux 14 May 2009
In reply to spindrift:
This wasn't near Llangollen by any chance?
 richprideaux 14 May 2009
In reply to cmsg:

Cheers, didn't read the last line of the OP properly...
 petestack 14 May 2009
In reply to cmsg:

And home of the imaginative route name?

 mikeski 14 May 2009
In reply to cmsg:

is the place worth a visit? Any topos?
In reply to mikeski:
> (In reply to cmsg)
>
> is the place worth a visit? Any topos?

yep, route 34, easy start at the base of the slab, bear left at the conceited prick on to steep ground (more patience than bold climbing required) then pull upwards on to easy ground and a satisfying top out above the fabled "ledge of hypocrites"
 ark05 15 May 2009
was gonna guess penmanhead before i got to the end. isnt even that greater venue... but i guess its close to the road and will become polished anyway... so you may aswell get in there.
spindrift 15 May 2009
In reply to mikeski: Not a bad venue. Easy access, some very suspect rock; bolts a bit too spaced; real potential to deck out on many of the 2nd bolts when pulling rope through to clip but........some nice climbs especially in the 6+ - 6c range
 tobykeep 15 May 2009
In reply to spindrift:

I've had a discussion with one of the crags equippers when instructing people there. They are quite protective of their baby!

To be fair they have put in a lot of time to put routes up and equip them and it is obviously appreciated, but it's not realistic or fair to suggest that you can only climb there if you're going to climb things first go. They don't own the crag, so I shouldn't take any notice.
petejh 15 May 2009
In reply to spindrift: That's unfortunate to have your day's cragging spoilt like that. It's completely unrealistic to develop an accessible sport crag with grades almost exclusively in the 6's and then not expect lots of people to come and climb/polish them.
It may look rough but there's some great routes at Penmaenhead, the 7a is brilliant and would get 3*'s on the Orme!

To the OP, you're not the guy who was climbing next to us when the ambulance got called by someone on the A55 are you?
 Justin T 15 May 2009
In reply to spindrift:

Sounds like the guy's an idiot. If he didn't want the routes polished then he shouldn't have bolted them - should have done the FAs as bold solos then no fecker would want to repeat.

Sport routes by their nature will get polished. That's the whole point of sport climbing - to push your grade on safe gear, to get on stuff that is above your ability and work hard until you can do it.

While he may have put the bolts in unless he actually owns the land he has feck all say, to be honest, in how people want to climb there.

Besides which unless this crag has a whole host of good routes and is highly accessible it's unlikely to see the sort of attention that popular sports venues get, and even at popular venues the most polished routes are still quite climbable.
 GrahamD 15 May 2009
In reply to spindrift:

Maybe the guy had a valid point ? It's very difficult to reach a fair conclusion when you only see one side of a story.

It is a fact that people flailing on climbs way beyond them does damage the rock more than competent parties do. As to whether this was the case in this particular instance its impossible to gauge.

As to whether the guy owns the rock - almost certainly not but if he has gone to the trouble of cleaning and bolting it he will certainly feel he has a vested interest in the well being of the crag.
 rockcat 15 May 2009
In reply to spindrift:
Well I've had a lot of flack over this and here is my response. There was no scoffing. I'm a modest performer myself and am not in the business of denigrating anyones standard. That is not the issue. Of course the place will inevitably get polished but the issue is preserving the routes as far as possible for others and that is not going to happen if people are top roped repeatedly on classic routes which are obviously well beyond them. The route in question is arguably the classic of the crag and other outdoor centres have been doing the same thing on the same route so I'm particularly sensitive to it. You do not mention that when I explained this to you at the time you said "I had a point". No, I don't own the crag but there are now 58 good routes there and there would be no developement there at all if I had not kicked it off and spent a lot of my own money and time on it. Perhaps that gives me some say in what happens there. My concern is merely to preserve it as far as possible for the future. I'm sorry that you saw it as scoffing as that was not the case and I hope everyone including yourself will enjoy the crag and treat it responsibly.
 Adam Lincoln 15 May 2009
In reply to rockcat:
> (In reply to spindrift)
> Well I've had a lot of flack over this and here is my response. There was no scoffing. I'm a modest performer myself and am not in the business of denigrating anyones standard. That is not the issue. Of course the place will inevitably get polished but the issue is preserving the routes as far as possible for others and that is not going to happen if people are top roped repeatedly on classic routes which are obviously well beyond them. The route in question is arguably the classic of the crag and other outdoor centres have been doing the same thing on the same route so I'm particularly sensitive to it. You do not mention that when I explained this to you at the time you said "I had a point". No, I don't own the crag but there are now 58 good routes there and there would be no developement there at all if I had not kicked it off and spent a lot of my own money and time on it. Perhaps that gives me some say in what happens there. My concern is merely to preserve it as far as possible for the future. I'm sorry that you saw it as scoffing as that was not the case and I hope everyone including yourself will enjoy the crag and treat it responsibly.

Good to hear both sides of the story.
 UKB Shark 15 May 2009
In reply to rockcat:


Demand for lower grade sport routes outstrips supply (re Hoseshoe) so that the few places like this are going to get a lot of traffic. Developing/bolting a low grade venue in the UK, almost irrespective of quality, is inevitabily going to get loads of use and to expect otherwise is a bit hopeful. To 'preserve it as far as possible for the future' would have been achieved by leaving it unbolted. Its a conundrum.
 ksjs 15 May 2009
In reply to spindrift: havent read other posts so apologies for any repetition but this sounds suspect: sport is there to try hard on and, anyway, nobody enjoys scratching around and repeatedly failing on the same move so any 'damage' will naturally be limited by the climber. some of the worlds best / most famous sport routes are 'polished' so, while not ideal, it often has little material impact on the climbing.

FWIW it doesnt sound like trying the 6b+, given what had already been done, was an unreasonable choice.
 JLS 15 May 2009
In reply to rockcat:

Great effort, bolting the crag. I had a look the other week (didn't get a chance to climb) and while some of the stuff on the first couple of walls doesn't look very appealling there looks to be some nice climbs on the more solid looking rock.

Re the polish: I recon you're being a bit over protective.

Try to be happy having done an alteristic thing in creating a sport climbing venue for people to enjoy. Just let them enjoy it even it results in polish.
 Mick Ward 15 May 2009
In reply to rockcat:
> (In reply to spindrift)

> ...treat it responsibly.

Surely this is the core issue? It sounds as though the OP and his friends weren't doing anything heinous (although maybe you'd reached the end of your tether.) Most of us 'work' (ahem!) stuff that's a little hard for us, which seems very different from en masse top-roping with groups on stuff that's way too hard for them. The latter seems akin to mass abseiling down routes which will inevitably become damaged.

Maybe we all need to think, "What's best for the crag?" before thinking, "What's best for me?"

Thanks for coming on here and giving your side of things - can't have been easy. And thanks for creating so many routes which will give tons of - hopefully responsible - pleasure to many.

Mick
 rockcat 15 May 2009
In reply to JLS:

I guess you are right and I am being somewhat over protective but let me give you some background. A few months ago we had a well known outdoor Centre there with half a dozen people being top-roped and floundering around on this route. Why not try another of the 57 routes that may be more within their capabilities? Why does it have to be the classic of the crag and obviously way beyond them? By the way the issue has been fully resolved with that particular outdoor centre. It's a shame that Mr. Spindrift chose to stir up a feeding frenzy on UKC when he could have sorted it out amicably by e-mail and others seem to delight in being abusive.
Here is a list of routes - enough to get you off the ground:
http://clwydmc.co.uk/penmaen.php
Ground Up and myself are doing a guide book to all the A55 crags including Penmaen Head. Enjoy yourselves down there and any feed back would be appreciated.
 Nic 15 May 2009
In reply to rockcat:

I think the bigger issue is illustrated by this comment on your website:

"Some lower-off bolts are already showing signs of wear especially where they are shared by routes.

Please use your own quick draws for lowering off as much as possible (last person threads) to minimise wear. "

This *really* annoys me - I saw some numpty instructor at the Cuttings the other week toproping the easy routes to death. Yes, they are going to get (even more) polished - but there's no need to knacker the lower offs. Despite a very polite request from me, he refused to use krabs in the top bolts. So, guess what, in another year's time the local crew will have to go out and replace the LO's yet again...

...or maybe we won't bother and there's the instructors' resource lost. Your choice...



 Neil Pratt 15 May 2009
In reply to spindrift:
> (In reply to Enty)
> . I...impressed myself with my pleasantness towards the knob.

I'm not sure this is an expression you want to make regular use of, unless you want to develop a reputation.

spindrift 15 May 2009
In reply to Ditch_Jockey:
Rocktalk has been in touch and apologised for the way he 'came across' which is fine. I did 'accept his point at the crag' but did not and do not agree with it. Perhaps we received the backlash of his encounter with the outdoor centre?!The route wasnt out of my wifes grade or our friends and to make that assumption did rile me. I will return there and I will do the exact same route and if my wife and friend wish to try the route then that is what we shall do.Its sports climbing and its there to be enjoyed (even if that means you need to rest on a rope several times!). Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I was interested in hearing it on this topic . I told rocktalk at the crag that I was impressed with his efforts in the development of the it. In case rocktalk is confused, my wife/friend were not under instruction, mereley out to enjoy a days cragging
 Mark Stevenson 16 May 2009
In reply to spindrift and others: There is a significant difference between a competent sport climber either working a route or having an initial attempt on the blunt end of a rope with the clear goal of leading the route and climbers having a 'play' on top-rope.

When it comes to UK sport climbing there is a fair bit of the later. However, in 99.9% of cases it really isn't anyone else's business if someone is making themselves look like a prat, but the bottom line is that they're not accomplishing anything and they'd be a better climber if they spent their time doing something more constructive. To that end some critique of their climbing technique and route choice is justified even if probably completely unwanted and intrusive.

However when it comes to instructors they should know better and be getting their clients into better habits.

Finally the point about top-roping off the bolts rather than quickdraws is well met and any instructors or climbers doing that deserve any public critism they get.
 54ms 16 May 2009
In reply to Nic:

> This *really* annoys me - I saw some numpty instructor at the Cuttings the other week toproping the easy routes to death. Yes, they are going to get (even more) polished - but there's no need to knacker the lower offs. Despite a very polite request from me, he refused to use krabs in the top bolts. So, guess what, in another year's time the local crew will have to go out and replace the LO's yet again...

Name and shame. Its numpties like that who give instructors a bad name in climbing circles.

 UKB Shark 16 May 2009
In reply to Mark Stevenson: but the bottom line is that they're not accomplishing anything and they'd be a better climber if they spent their time doing something more constructive


Discovering how hard the climbing is on routes above your grade can be a useful benchmarking exercise. You probably would have found Moffat's early exploits at Forwyn unconstructive and cringeworthy.
 Wangy 16 May 2009
In reply to rockcat:

From reading both sides it still sounds like you were out-of-order. There is world of difference between coming to an agreement with an outdoor centre to protect a crag and telling climbers to keep of routes that are 'beyond them'. I don't see how doing the latter could come across anything but insulting and deserving an appropriate response.

Wangy

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