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Just a bit of info guys. On Sunday at the Slate Quarries a young girl of around 12 years old was climbing with her father, mother and sisters. Leading on one of the slabs nice and comfortably, she got to the anchors.
Then on the way down she stands back up on the route and turns to her father and says her knot has untied. She had only threaded through one bolt at the top and re-tied into a screwgate through her 'hero-loop'. Her father climbed back up and sorted the situation out, no telling off needed as i think she quickly realised what she'd done wrong.
anything other than a slab and i dread to think what could have happened.
Just an info thread to remind everyone to check, double check and triple check your knot. It takes an extra 5-10 seconds and could save your life.
Also i have no idea why so many people thread just one anchor??
In reply to chris fox:
Noticed a good habit which we've tried to adopt: the buddy system where after checking themsleves the climber checks the belayer (rope, belay device, karabiner, belay loop) and belayer checks the climber (knot through harness & rethreaded) making sure that the other climber sees these checks being done.
What is a hero-loop and what it's for?
Is it something to do with threading fixed anchors on sports routes?
Noticed a good habit which we've tried to adopt: the buddy system where after checking themsleves the climber checks the belayer (rope, belay device, karabiner, belay loop) and belayer checks the climber (knot through harness & rethreaded) making sure that the other climber sees these checks being done.
What is a hero-loop and what it's for?
Is it something to do with threading fixed anchors on sports routes?
In reply to chris fox:
People definately need to switch out of "Sport Climbing = Safe" mentality. The ground is just as hard under a sport route as under any other route.
In this case, its probably the best outcome - a bit of a scare and a reality check with a happy outcome will mean the lesson is well learnt.
People definately need to switch out of "Sport Climbing = Safe" mentality. The ground is just as hard under a sport route as under any other route.
In this case, its probably the best outcome - a bit of a scare and a reality check with a happy outcome will mean the lesson is well learnt.
In reply to chris fox: What's wrong with leaving 2 screwgates to lower off, with the parents retrieving them later? Much safer, she's only 12 after all.
In reply to chris fox:
As an aside, many years ago I once climbed something very easy on the Milestone in December.There wasn't much snow left on the holds as the rain was washing it away. When I got my first piece of gear in around 30' I was very relieved... fiddling to grab the rope to finally clip in I heard my mate shout up:
'Why have I got both ends of the rope?'
Obviously now I check my knot carefully every time. Good lesson learned, the solo in the rain to the top of the pitch was not easily forgotten.
As an aside, many years ago I once climbed something very easy on the Milestone in December.There wasn't much snow left on the holds as the rain was washing it away. When I got my first piece of gear in around 30' I was very relieved... fiddling to grab the rope to finally clip in I heard my mate shout up:
'Why have I got both ends of the rope?'
Obviously now I check my knot carefully every time. Good lesson learned, the solo in the rain to the top of the pitch was not easily forgotten.
In reply to chris fox: You're going to have to explain this to me again. She got to the anchors? Stands back up on the route? Threaded through one bolt and re-tied into a screwgate? Hero loop?
Do you mean she untied the rope from her harness at the top of the route so she was not tied to anything at all? Then threaded the rope through some kind of a bolt and tied it to a crab that she then attached to her harness by the belay loop?
Do you mean she untied the rope from her harness at the top of the route so she was not tied to anything at all? Then threaded the rope through some kind of a bolt and tied it to a crab that she then attached to her harness by the belay loop?
In reply to chris fox:
>Also i have no idea why so many people thread just one anchor??
I'll do this sometimes IF I'm leaving the quickdraws in the route as lowering off through two bolts/anchors puts kinks in the rope. However if I'm lowering off to strip the route then I'll thread both..
>Also i have no idea why so many people thread just one anchor??
I'll do this sometimes IF I'm leaving the quickdraws in the route as lowering off through two bolts/anchors puts kinks in the rope. However if I'm lowering off to strip the route then I'll thread both..
In reply to chris fox: Most of us are not 12 years old, so don't need to be treated like children.
In reply to Simon4:
I think the point is, she is still only 12 years old and therefore, she is still a child.
I'm not taking anything away from her or trying to insult her. Far from it!
Absolutely, get you're kids involved, get them leading, get them confident, but asking them to untie and thread the rope through and then tie back into the harness with a 'sound' knot...at 12 years old?
I wouldn't have let a 12-year old start climbing without having checked her knot first, as well as everything else. So why would I trust them at the top of a climb, when there's potentially not a lot you can do?
I agree with ian Ll-J, and why not just give her a few screwgates to just secure the top and leave it to the parent's to sort out? Especially if they're going up there for the gear anyway?
Al
And what is a hero loop??
I think the point is, she is still only 12 years old and therefore, she is still a child.
I'm not taking anything away from her or trying to insult her. Far from it!
Absolutely, get you're kids involved, get them leading, get them confident, but asking them to untie and thread the rope through and then tie back into the harness with a 'sound' knot...at 12 years old?
I wouldn't have let a 12-year old start climbing without having checked her knot first, as well as everything else. So why would I trust them at the top of a climb, when there's potentially not a lot you can do?
I agree with ian Ll-J, and why not just give her a few screwgates to just secure the top and leave it to the parent's to sort out? Especially if they're going up there for the gear anyway?
Al
And what is a hero loop??
In reply to Alejandro: Er, my RB is 12yrs old and has been capable of threading lower offs (in 2 different ways I might add!) since she was 9yrs old, it's not exactly rocket science. You discredit them if you think they're not smart enough at that age to understand the physics of rope and gear management and the consequences of messing up, if they are taught properly in the first place. Who knows what happened in the OP's story, maybe the child just didn't pay enough attention, maybe they hadn't been taught properly (in which case they shouldn't have been up there)
Mistakes in threading (and in any thing to do with climbing/descending) can happen to anyone regardless of age. When I thread a lower off I check, double check and tripple check when it's me that's leading and my daughter has been taught to do the same and we go over it all evertime she is out.
She also ties her knot herself, and that gets checked EVERY time she climbs a route (I'm obsessive about it, so much so that some of my partners laugh at me!) And she knows to check my belay device is set up properly and krab screwed up etc before she sets off.
Mistakes in threading (and in any thing to do with climbing/descending) can happen to anyone regardless of age. When I thread a lower off I check, double check and tripple check when it's me that's leading and my daughter has been taught to do the same and we go over it all evertime she is out.
She also ties her knot herself, and that gets checked EVERY time she climbs a route (I'm obsessive about it, so much so that some of my partners laugh at me!) And she knows to check my belay device is set up properly and krab screwed up etc before she sets off.
In reply to Alejandro:
Hero loop - Old aid climbing term. Very short sling which you could stand in when the top rung of the etriers didnt give you enough height.
Hero loop - Old aid climbing term. Very short sling which you could stand in when the top rung of the etriers didnt give you enough height.
In reply to SonyaD:
I suspect I know what you tell your partners then!!! Same as I would!
> (In reply to Alejandro) >
> She also ties her knot herself, and that gets checked EVERY time she climbs a route (I'm obsessive about it, so much so that some of my partners laugh at me!) And she knows to check my belay device is set up properly and krab screwed up etc before she sets off.
I suspect I know what you tell your partners then!!! Same as I would!
In reply to Bill Davidson: Lol! I just laugh back, as it's all meant in good jest. If anyone got stroppy about it, then they would be telt of course
In reply to Alejandro:
I've heard it referred to in the context of a 4ft sling lark's-footed to your belay loop and a krab the other end. Normally you run it around your waist while climbing, then when you get to the anchor, you clip in with the krab to make yourself safe before you proceed to thread the rope to lower off/ab in the usual manner. You can put a couple of overhand knots at intervals into the hero loop as well to give you different lengths. Also useful as an extender for abbing off, as it keeps the device away from your back-up prussik.
> And what is a hero loop??
I've heard it referred to in the context of a 4ft sling lark's-footed to your belay loop and a krab the other end. Normally you run it around your waist while climbing, then when you get to the anchor, you clip in with the krab to make yourself safe before you proceed to thread the rope to lower off/ab in the usual manner. You can put a couple of overhand knots at intervals into the hero loop as well to give you different lengths. Also useful as an extender for abbing off, as it keeps the device away from your back-up prussik.
In reply to craigloon:
That's a modern take on a 'cow's-tail'. See above for origin of 'hero loop'.
> (In reply to Alejandro)
>
> [...]
>
> I've heard it referred to in the context of a 4ft sling lark's-footed to your belay loop and a krab the other end. Normally you run it around your waist while climbing, then when you get to the anchor, you clip in with the krab to make yourself safe before you proceed to thread the rope to lower off/ab in the usual manner. You can put a couple of overhand knots at intervals into the hero loop as well to give you different lengths. Also useful as an extender for abbing off, as it keeps the device away from your back-up prussik.
>
> [...]
>
> I've heard it referred to in the context of a 4ft sling lark's-footed to your belay loop and a krab the other end. Normally you run it around your waist while climbing, then when you get to the anchor, you clip in with the krab to make yourself safe before you proceed to thread the rope to lower off/ab in the usual manner. You can put a couple of overhand knots at intervals into the hero loop as well to give you different lengths. Also useful as an extender for abbing off, as it keeps the device away from your back-up prussik.
That's a modern take on a 'cow's-tail'. See above for origin of 'hero loop'.
In reply to SonyaD: I'd leave screwgates in the lower off for an adult climber as well, saves wear and tear on the lower-offs...I thought it was common knowledge....last person retrieves.
In reply to Sl@te Head:
I use two quickdraws with gates opposing and likewise last person retrieves
> (In reply to SonyaD) I'd leave screwgates in the lower off for an adult climber as well, saves wear and tear on the lower-offs...I thought it was common knowledge....last person retrieves.
I use two quickdraws with gates opposing and likewise last person retrieves
In reply to chris fox:
Ok i should go into a little more depth, apologies if some things came across ambiguous.
Hero loop is also you donut, the part of your harness that loops through both your leg and waist part of your harness. Same thing you belay off.
She got to the anchors, clipped the anchors, tied in hard and did the usual re-threading of the anchor, but i can only assume she tied some form of a knot other than either a fig 8 on a bight, or a bowline. Tied this knot onto a screwgate which she then clipped onto her belay loop. When being lowered down the knot has obviously undone itself and when i looked round she was stood on the slab, with one hand on a hold on the climb and her left hand holding the loose end of the rope.
To the person who said we are not all 12 year olds, it's not a matter of age, i was just pointing out that rechecking your knot before you untie from your personal anchor (clipping in hard to the anchor). It just happens that this incident involved a 12 year old girl. She was very competent at leading, even managed a no hands rest on the slab.
It was just a point of info for people to be diligent when re-threading anchors
Ok i should go into a little more depth, apologies if some things came across ambiguous.
Hero loop is also you donut, the part of your harness that loops through both your leg and waist part of your harness. Same thing you belay off.
She got to the anchors, clipped the anchors, tied in hard and did the usual re-threading of the anchor, but i can only assume she tied some form of a knot other than either a fig 8 on a bight, or a bowline. Tied this knot onto a screwgate which she then clipped onto her belay loop. When being lowered down the knot has obviously undone itself and when i looked round she was stood on the slab, with one hand on a hold on the climb and her left hand holding the loose end of the rope.
To the person who said we are not all 12 year olds, it's not a matter of age, i was just pointing out that rechecking your knot before you untie from your personal anchor (clipping in hard to the anchor). It just happens that this incident involved a 12 year old girl. She was very competent at leading, even managed a no hands rest on the slab.
It was just a point of info for people to be diligent when re-threading anchors
In reply to chris fox: What route was she on?
In reply to Simon4:
Doesn't matter how old you are, anyone can screw up...she sounded experienced and probably just made a little mistake.
I "buddy check" my 18-year old noob partner aswell as my partner who's over 50, and has put up 90 percent of the routes I climb.
It's such a little effort compared to the possible outcome...
Doesn't matter how old you are, anyone can screw up...she sounded experienced and probably just made a little mistake.
I "buddy check" my 18-year old noob partner aswell as my partner who's over 50, and has put up 90 percent of the routes I climb.
It's such a little effort compared to the possible outcome...
In reply to chris fox:
Ah, what the rest of the world calls a 'belay loop', for obvious reasons...
> Hero loop is also you donut, the part of your harness that loops through both your leg and waist part of your harness. Same thing you belay off.
Ah, what the rest of the world calls a 'belay loop', for obvious reasons...
In reply to Sl@te Head:
Don't know the route, something at Dali's hole.
I just wrote this to remind people of the dangers of being complacent when re-threading, irrespective of age.
Lynn Hill once got distracted whilst tying in and didnt follow through her figure of 8 so it's nothing to do with age or experience.
Happy climbing
Chris
Don't know the route, something at Dali's hole.
I just wrote this to remind people of the dangers of being complacent when re-threading, irrespective of age.
Lynn Hill once got distracted whilst tying in and didnt follow through her figure of 8 so it's nothing to do with age or experience.
Happy climbing
Chris
In reply to Sl@te Head: Uhuh, and what if you are leading different routes to your child?
In reply to SonyaD:
My childeren's safety is my number one priority, I would also make them the priority when climbing together...
> (In reply to ian Ll-J) Uhuh, and what if you are leading different routes to your child?
My childeren's safety is my number one priority, I would also make them the priority when climbing together...
In reply to Ztephan: No, grown ups should be just that.
Personal responsibility is what climbing is all about, not nannying. I don't and won't check my partners knots and I would not accept them checking mine. Both I and they are old enough and ugly enough to look after ourselves, after all if we screw up, it is us who get hurt.
It is of course totally different with children, but then I would be totally paranoid if I were responsible for my little niece or nephew on rock, but that is no excuse for "elf-n-safety" invading climbing in general.
You want to be safe - take up tiddlewinks! (but watch the sharp edges on the pieces).
Climbing is dangerous - if that worries you, don't do it. But if you do climb, don't try to domesticate and regulate it, especially not as "correct practice", to be imposed on everybody else.
Personal responsibility is what climbing is all about, not nannying. I don't and won't check my partners knots and I would not accept them checking mine. Both I and they are old enough and ugly enough to look after ourselves, after all if we screw up, it is us who get hurt.
It is of course totally different with children, but then I would be totally paranoid if I were responsible for my little niece or nephew on rock, but that is no excuse for "elf-n-safety" invading climbing in general.
You want to be safe - take up tiddlewinks! (but watch the sharp edges on the pieces).
Climbing is dangerous - if that worries you, don't do it. But if you do climb, don't try to domesticate and regulate it, especially not as "correct practice", to be imposed on everybody else.
In reply to Sl@te Head: My daughter's safety is also my number one priority and when we climb together I don't find it necessary to lead the same routes as she does if we both have different objectives on that day, as she is competent enough, intelligent enough, mature enough and sensible enough to thread a lower off correctly, and neither of us are ever complacent *because* we value our safety. If you do things differently then that's your right as a parent and I can respect that, but not everyone will find your way the right way for them, as each child has differs in their abilities, differs in their maturity for a given age, and each parent can give a different level of trust or responsibility to their child.
In reply to chris fox:
No, her BOWLINE--she did not tie the knot (nothing to follow through on).
(as reported in her book, _Climbing Free_)
*kN*
> Lynn Hill once got distracted whilst tying in and didnt follow through her figure of 8
No, her BOWLINE--she did not tie the knot (nothing to follow through on).
(as reported in her book, _Climbing Free_)
*kN*
In reply to SonyaD:
Look this thread's not about you and your daughter but about a near miss, all I did was suggest a sensible option for those who may learn from it. You're clearly happy with the way you do things and that's great as long as it's safe. If you checked my profile you would have worked out that I teach Outdoor Education so no need for the above lecture!
My interest in this thread is down to the fact this took place in the slate quarries, a major injury or worse to a 12 year old climber would have huge access issues at this sensitive time.
> (In reply to ian Ll-J) My daughter's safety is also my number one priority and when we climb together I don't find it necessary to lead the same routes as she does if we both have different objectives on that day, as she is competent enough, intelligent enough, mature enough and sensible enough to thread a lower off correctly, and neither of us are ever complacent *because* we value our safety. If you do things differently then that's your right as a parent and I can respect that, but not everyone will find your way the right way for them, as each child has differs in their abilities, differs in their maturity for a given age, and each parent can give a different level of trust or responsibility to their child.
Look this thread's not about you and your daughter but about a near miss, all I did was suggest a sensible option for those who may learn from it. You're clearly happy with the way you do things and that's great as long as it's safe. If you checked my profile you would have worked out that I teach Outdoor Education so no need for the above lecture!
My interest in this thread is down to the fact this took place in the slate quarries, a major injury or worse to a 12 year old climber would have huge access issues at this sensitive time.
In reply to Sl@te Head: I never said it was about us, I was simply replying to your response about you and your child, after you made a comment. And I was also replying to comments about rethreading lower offs and checking knots, and checking knots *was* what the thread was about, ie to remind people to check knots because these near misses do happen to people.
In reply to Simon4:
What a stupid attitude, so yo're quite happy putting your life in the hands of someone who if they were distracted, sloppy, forgetful, hungover whatever and didn't tie in correctly or set up their belay correctly might mean you both die. I check me and belayer and I get them to check my belay if I'm leading. By doing this I've learnt much more on setting things up and staying safe.
Glad I don't climb with you, you sound like a numbty.
> (In reply to Ztephan) No, grown ups should be just that.
>
> Personal responsibility is what climbing is all about, not nannying. I don't and won't check my partners knots and I would not accept them checking mine. Both I and they are old enough and ugly enough to look after ourselves, after all if we screw up, it is us who get hurt.
>
>
> Personal responsibility is what climbing is all about, not nannying. I don't and won't check my partners knots and I would not accept them checking mine. Both I and they are old enough and ugly enough to look after ourselves, after all if we screw up, it is us who get hurt.
>
What a stupid attitude, so yo're quite happy putting your life in the hands of someone who if they were distracted, sloppy, forgetful, hungover whatever and didn't tie in correctly or set up their belay correctly might mean you both die. I check me and belayer and I get them to check my belay if I'm leading. By doing this I've learnt much more on setting things up and staying safe.
Glad I don't climb with you, you sound like a numbty.
In reply to krikoman:
I thought that too.
I don't think it's 'rad' or 'out there' not to take 10 seconds to double check my partners knot or belay device, just stupid.
And I like them to check mine.
It's never been wrong yet but it's only got to be wrong once.
> (In reply to Simon4)
> [...]
>
> What a stupid attitude,
> [...]
>
> What a stupid attitude,
I thought that too.
I don't think it's 'rad' or 'out there' not to take 10 seconds to double check my partners knot or belay device, just stupid.
And I like them to check mine.
It's never been wrong yet but it's only got to be wrong once.
In reply to chris fox:
I hesitate to resurrect this thread because of some of the comments above but its worth chucking in an additional piece of information from an additional witness to the incident.
What actually appears to have happened was that the girl lead on a correctly tied fig-8 knot. When she arrived at the lower-off she pushed a bight of rope through the lower-off, as normal, and clipped it with a screw-gate to her harness 'belay-loop' WITHOUT TYING ANY KNOT AT ALL into that bight. She then untied the fig-8 (still attached) from the end of the rope and, holding the two ropes in front of her, was lowered. Part way down she realised what was happening - she was just holding herself on the end of the rope threaded through the krab.
Now that makes sense to me - a pretty scary sort of sense though!
I hesitate to resurrect this thread because of some of the comments above but its worth chucking in an additional piece of information from an additional witness to the incident.
What actually appears to have happened was that the girl lead on a correctly tied fig-8 knot. When she arrived at the lower-off she pushed a bight of rope through the lower-off, as normal, and clipped it with a screw-gate to her harness 'belay-loop' WITHOUT TYING ANY KNOT AT ALL into that bight. She then untied the fig-8 (still attached) from the end of the rope and, holding the two ropes in front of her, was lowered. Part way down she realised what was happening - she was just holding herself on the end of the rope threaded through the krab.
Now that makes sense to me - a pretty scary sort of sense though!
I wish my partner had checked my knot the day I failed to tie it (just looped it through the harness, then got distracted). I discovered the error when clipping the runner to protect the crux on an E2 5C..the rope dropped to the ground, and I almost followed it. Fortunately I was climing on double ropes so had a (correctly tied) back up.
Guess who is obsessive about testing knots and looking over at partners knots?
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