UKC

This evening (Friday 5th) I nipped up to Broad Stand with local climber and Wasdale MRT leader Julian Carradice to witness him remove the bolts. Julian has asked me to pass this information on as he does not have access to a computer out side work and cannot post to this forum. Before we set out Julian had consulted widely amongst his local climbing contacts including Peter Latimer and Stephen Reid. I filmed and photographed the removal of three bolts. They consisted of a mix of 15kn and 18kn Petzl aluminium hangers fixed by 7mm threaded expansion bolts. Each nut was loosely attached, two of which unscrewed by hand. The expansion bolts also sat loosely in their holes and rotated but could not be pulled out. Julian removed the hangers and then, at the advice of a metallurgist, he nicked the shaft of the studs with a small chisel as close to the rock as he could without damaging it. Bending pressure was then applied with Molegrips. After about 8 or ten lever motions the studs fractured cleanly at the nicks.

Julian observed that close to the location of each bolt a number of solid placement for passive protection exist. Also above the top bolt (within 8ft in the correct alignment) was a thread around a chockstone. Near the top bolt was a ‘Cassin” type soft steel piton with two rusty maillons. He decided to leave this in place for the moment as it would need a proper peg hammer with a carabiner chain to get it out cleanly.

The previous weekend Julian and his climbing partner removed and cut up a length of knotted black static rope (very new looking) that linked the three new bolts. This rope was tied directly into the hangers by bowline and double fisherman knots. They also removed and cut up various lengths of old weather warn dynamic rope that had been tied into the peg and hung directly down the corners into ’fat man’s agony. This rope had been stashed near the bottom, 6kg was removed this evening and the balance will be removed in the near future. One particularly worrying point to note is that the bottom bolt was driven into a loose rock.

I will post a link for the pictures and film in due course.

Well done to both of you.

I'm afraid both leads as to who might have placed them have drawn a blank but, as they say on Crimewatch, someone out there must know who is the guilty party is... And now you have a spare length of rope for the job!

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: Well done.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:
Well done from me too.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:
Thank you -- both of you.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: Well done Jeremy, good job !

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: Well done from me as well!

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: Awesome job.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: Nice one Jeremy, very good news.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: About time they were removed, they shouldn't have been put there in the first place. Glad you have the rope and the pleasure of removing them. Anyone wanting to own up to the bolts ?

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

Well done, glad they were removed without any further damage to the rock.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

Great job, thanks to all concerned for doing this.

In reply to 5cifi:

I was there on the 25th of June and I presumed they had been left behind by the TV crew of Gryff Rhys-Jones but I guess thats not the case because I think MRT did the safety for that job???

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: Wonderful news. I'm glad to say I was proven right when I was on Scafell on Tuesday and heard about the bolts. I said "They'll be out by end o' t'week". Thanks to all concerned.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: Thank-you.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: Nicely done. Bo)

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

Well done!

By the sounds of things, someone went to a lot of bother rigging the bolts and static rope -- I guess they didn't intend it for a 'one off' use. They'll be pretty pissed off the next time they or their friends go up there, expecting a 'via ferrata' type of ascent particularly if the furore they caused has not reached their ears. Serves them right for their stupidity and selfishness.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

Well done both of you.

Cheers
Mark

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: good work, I was planning a trip up one evening next week if they hadnt gone this weekend. If the hangers are any good donate them to the bolt fund

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

Well done

In reply to Gus Mayor:

Have you got a time machine then?

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

Genius. Remove the bolts, but leave behind a piton and two rusty malions.

All the tat that you removed would not have been there if the bolts were left alone. Why would we rather have bucketfulls of abtat scattered over our cliffs attached to rotting pegs than two properly located and seated bolts? Surely two unobtrusive bolts would be less enviromentaly offensive than rotting dangerous loops of rope...

And bolting the occasional abseil descent will not result in bolts appearing all over our classic routes. I climb trad 95% of the time, and would never want to see bolts spread onto routes. We in this country are just so stuck in our ways over this subject, so stuborn, that we cant see any other way of looking at the issue...

Ab the happy trad climber

In reply to ab tat:

WTF are you on? Read the OP - the piton was left because it couldn't be removed cleanly without a peg hammer and one of the bolts was in a loose block, so not exactly what you might describe as 'properly located and seated'.

In addition - what makes you think that 'rotting dangerous loops of rope' won't appear with bolts in place? They'd still need to be equalised and people tend to use tat for that. They're not going to walk round and strip it after, because most people are too lazy. If you don't like seeing huge amounts of tat everywhere, take a knife out with you and cut it off. Easy.

The bolts should never have been placed. Well done to the guys who took them out.

In reply to Pagan:

With two properly placed bolts equiped with mallions there is no need to leave any abtat behind. Easy, unobtrusive, and more pleasing on the eye.

Ps, I know my position on the subject will be extremely unpopular...

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:
What gives you the right to take them out?
Is your opinion better than the people who put them there?
Do you own the rock?

In reply to i agree:

I dont agree these bolts should have been there but I am not the owner of the rock. Seems to me that the OP like a lot of climber believes he knows better and is more important.
I refer to the bolts at the top of sargent slabs. I believe these are needed but they too were taken out.
Also the bolts on lower lednock were taken out when there was no issue to be had.
etc etc

In reply to pigeonjim:

Oh you do make me laugh...between the tears that is!

In reply to pigeonjim: we all own the rock so what does that matter? The general concensus is that we dont want them there, that means the majority of people have made an informed judgement.

You should be happy that the majority of people have got what they wanted. Or do you think the way some bolters do that you ask what the concensus is and then when you dont get the answer you wanted whinge or bolt despite the majority view?

In reply to Fawksey:
Were was this majority vote?

In reply to pigeonjim: straw pole of the majority of responses on here among the climbing community.

You seem to be in a minority

In reply to Fawksey:

Really? Did you read my posts?
And is UKC really the only source he used?

In reply to pigeonjim: I think the concensus is that those who placed the bolts are arseholes and those that removed them....well, it's a shame there was anything for them to remove in the first place.

In reply to Nicholas Livesey: Furthermore, rather than owning the rock we hold it in trust for future generations to enjoy as we have.

In reply to Nicholas Livesey:

This is opinion too. The discussion should have been before bolts were placed.
But i do take offence to someone posting like they are holier than thou, pure look at me type post like ot.

In reply to Fawksey:

I wonder who does own it - the farmer, the National Trust, the LDNP?

In reply to Nicholas Livesey: Very true, not needed and correct to be removed. Have we had anyone bar one person on here who thinks they should remain there ?

In reply to pigeonjim: It was you who who dictated that ownership decides if you can bolt or not. I think if its right or wrong to bolt something should decide.

In reply to pigeonjim:

I would have thought that the bolting of Broad Stand is a no brainer. However, should the perpetrators have asked before placing the bolts then they would been told to f*ck off.

As for your stance on the issue, I may well be hollier than thou!

In reply to Nicholas Livesey:

Im not aware of the Broad Stand area that was bolted personaly, and maybe they were not entirely nessesary. However, if bolted ab stations were placed at a place that would benifit from them, they would still be chopped and the people who placed them would still be called 'arseholes'

This is whats wrong - some people can not see sense because they are so blinded by 'ethics' and our history. 100's of thousands of new routes were climbed by the first accentionist placing pegs. Or are the current set of choppers forgeting this? I suggest the take their chopping skills elsewhere and remove all the rotting peices of ironmongory that litter routes rather than removing bolts at ab stations.

Bolting an ab line will not result in routes becoming peppered with bolts! Wake up and come into the 21st century..

Ab the happy trad climber

In reply to Nicholas Livesey:

You may also be wrong

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: i think some of ou on this post have missed the (most important in my opinion) point that the bolts were not particularly well placed.

thats reason enough to remove them on its own.

Sounds like the bolts were unsafe, in which case it was right to remove them. If they had been properly placed then there would have been an argument for leaving them alone - no harm in a couple of abseil bolts (or would it be the thin end of the wedge?). I also think that a bolt with a hanger on looks better than a chopped bolt stud. Of course there was no need to place them in the first place.

In reply to Various People:

Not having been up Scafell I don't know the area the bolts were in but from the various threads on them I got the impression these weren't ab points but were put there as part of an aid/vf type arrangement for people ascending a tough scramble/low grade climb.

Although my personal view is that I wouldn't want to see bolts going up on any mountain crag in the UK, there is a difference (at least in my view) between a consesus driven, well placed and community approved (whatever that means!) ab station and the placing of aid points.

So, can someone please enlighten me so I can follow where the current debate blends into the wider arguement?

Nick

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:
Well done on removing them

for others who seem to think they should be there - sure you have your views and are well entitled to them but perhaps consider these points;

1) British Mountaineering Club and other climbing clubs (e.g Fell and Rock who are prime in Lakes) have a strong, fiercely debated on both sides stance on this = pretty much no bolts on mountain crags

2) Broad Stand is a touch scramble which can be bypassed by hikers taking a safe route down to foxes tarn and back up to summit = 30 mins extra walk if they feel the scramble is too hard.

3) The scramble was first reportedly done by Coleridge at turn of 18th century (i think date is correct) - he did not use bolts - nor has anyone else needed to since - why reduce to lowest common demoninator now?

4) If ppl wish to place ropes to help other climbers or fell runners there are ample natural placements to do so.

These are my thoughts - I dont think anyone is being elitist about it - there is clear and well argued consensus (not just on forums but over decades of discussion amongst climbing and walking communities) against this kind of boting. If people like Ab Tat and PigionJim wish to re-open the bolts arguement then please do so (and u have every right to) - but do it by going to your BMC Open Meetings and arguing a clear case with the community - not by ill informed whining on these boards.

And once again - thank you to the bolt removers and to ppl like the NeedleSports guys who are trying to find out who placed them. GL to you.

Spike

In reply to ab tat:


There is no need to ab at all, people have been climbing down Broad Stand since Coleridge. If you have to ab, a much better place to do it is off the block overlooking Mickledore (directly above the point where the ridge meets the crag).

No need to ab = no need for bolts in this case.

In reply to pigeonjim:


You what? You BELIEVE they were needed? You haven't even been to the crag and yet you hold an opinion on the suitability of bolts at the venue?!

How about you go there, see for yourself and then spout cock - at least that way it would be informed cock.

F*cking hell, I despair of this place at times.

In reply to Spike:
I feel these board are as relevant as 40 people if your lucky in a pub.

Glad the bolts are gone, but would have rather that they had been taken out in their entirety and then the holes filled with maybe a resin and stone dust mix, maybe that would not work I`m no expert, but leaving the scar seems to say it`s not the desecration of a pristine place thats the issue rather that someones take on "ethics" does not meet with the consensus is the issue.

In reply to pigeonjim: If you have an argument on Sargent slabs argue that point there.

A few years ago as a member of MR I and a colleague set up a rope over Broad stand to protect people doing the Bob Graham round this was done using passive protection.

There is no need for bolts here and to argue against there removal only serves to undermine any valid argument for the possible valid bolting elsewhere.

In reply to Pagan:

I have been to the crag many times. I also know know placed the bolts and he asked me if i wanted to go up with him after work the night he did it.

In reply to Pagan:

The reasons for the bolts to prevent unsightly erosion of the descent path at SCS in order to satisfy the access conditions of the landowner are well documented on UKC and elsewhere

In reply to Fawksey:

You totally missed my point but your posts do prove it to be true

In reply to kevin stephens:

There is a safety issue here too

In reply to J1234:

I'm glad you appear to have changed you r ealier stance on this when u seem to be wanting these bolts.

I too hope the damage to rock by the orginal bolters can be repaired by those taking them out - seems like they have done the best job they can so far - and have left stuff in where they felt they couldn't remove without damage until they have better equipment to do so.

as for BMC groups - sure they are ill attended - but perhaps you'd suggest a better place to get a group/democratic view on issues such as ethics/ access etc - surely it isn't forums such as this where ppl can spout off whatever they wish no matter how ill informed they are - and spread rumours like - "these bolts are need for H&S" kind of views...

I'm aware that I can not prove any credentials in this matter either - but I can say (and u take my word or not) I have regularly climbed on Scafell and run the Bg and helped others on the BG round. It does aggrarvate me slightly when people post on the forums - and then it turns out they don't know anything about the mountain/ crag / situation etc - but hey - never let the facts get in the way of a good troll !

In reply to pigeonjim:


Excellent. Tell him from me he's a c*nt.

The Sergeant Crag Slabs issue is a separate one, my views on that can be found on other threads (to sum up - it may be necessary to ab here to save erosion of the hillside but with the abundance of natural anchors, bolts aren't and never were necessary; I would have no problem with a second fixed chain in the trees).

To whoever was blethering on about a consensus on removing the bolts - tell me exactly, how many people did the anonymous bolter ask before going ahead and messing things up on Broad Stand?

As a slightly exiled Lakes local, I take a keen interest in the state of Lakes climbing. I'm glad these latest bolts have come out - it sends a clear message out to others who may be considering similar actions.

Andy Hobson

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

Thank you for taking direct and effective action.

The only thing that has amazed me more than bolts being placed in this most traditional of locations, is the number of people who appear to be apologists for this kind of action.

In reply to Pagan:

I meant the SCS bolts

To all those who think that bolts in our mountains are ok or necessary.

Please do us a favour and stay at home and watch tv.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

Of course all this is from a climber's perspective. I wonder what the fell walking community would think ?
After all. Although its possible a fell walker might carry a confidence rope for security would they necessarily carry slings or nuts ?
As someone who this week observed a hard trad crag liberally sprinkled with tat, I'm wondering what the criteria is for leaving gear...bolts,hangers,slings,cord,krabs... in situ ?

Not advocating the placement of bolts in the mountains by the way. Just observing a wee bit of hypocrisy and elitism from the climbing community.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

Bolts in Broad Stand. Never thought I'd live to see it. What's more amazing is the number of posts in favour. Well done lads (that's the removers!) and keep up the vigilance.

In reply to Jonno: Not trying to be elitist as even Whillans was a rambler but maybe theres is something in "fell walking" and "climber". Broad Stand maybe isnt fell walking? It can be turned by walking.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

Well done on the removal.

Anyone with recourse to the use of bolts on Broadstand should go and do something else until they're experienced enough to do it without.

The popularity of an area/route with inexperienced walkers/climbers is not justification for bolting it, rather the opposite should be the case in order to inform those with little or no experience of our mountains that there is not always an easy option or way out.

Anything else propagates a false sense of security in the hills.

In reply to Jonno:


This was my point to

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

I can't believe people are supporting bolts on Broad Stand. What has happened/happening to our mountaineering world is so sad.

In reply to Richard123: I agree - I wonder whether part of it is because anyone younger than me, 35, probably won't have had any first hand experience of the bolt debate of the 80s and early 90s. Once the BMC gave its decree of what was fair game to bolt and what was sacrasanct, the whole argument pretty much went away.

In the last few years, a lot of younger climbers (if you will allow me this generalisation) have legitimately begun to question why bolts are where they are and not anywhere else. It is up to us who want to keep our natural environments detritus free, to explain why any form of gear left behind in the mountains is abhorent and only ever to be allowed if there is NO other alternative (and that goes for pegs, threads, and anything else you care to mention).

Those reasons being that we do not want the dumbing down of adventure in the few "wilderness" areas we have left, we want to be self reliant in the mountains and not have everything on a plate, and that it would be rather nice if it looked like a natural environment and not strewn with man-made debris

In reply to James Moyle:

No - threads and pegs and lumps of rotting tat are all fine because they demonstrate our "adventurousness" (and, hence, superiority to Johnny Foreigner). Only someone who doesn't understand British climbing's adventurousness (and, hence, whose opinion isn't worth anything) would consider them to be litter. See the many comments "Ab stations at Gogarth" thread that prove this: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=358475

In reply to James Moyle:
I would agree with that to an extent. I was not aorund then, being about 5, but have had several debates with climbing partners over the years about bolts and their place in the hills. I think that partly it's wall-breeding as it were (although I admit to being a wall-bred climber) and not starting off seconding trad leaders, and partly just a wish for convenience and being able to climb hard stuff more safely.

By all means this does not apply to all under-35 climbers (just look at people like Pete Whittaker et al. climbing lots of new hard trad routes) but I think that perhaps there is a danger of sport climbing becoming seen as the norm, and the enthusiasm to maintain trad ethics to slacken off as the older generations stop climbing.

Ed

In reply to TobyA: They are not fine, they are an unfortunate consequence when there is no alternative. They certainly shouldn't be worn as some badge of pride that you seem to be suggesting.

Carry a knife - remove what is old, particularly if you leave something new.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:
More I have thought about this today walking the fells today the more annoyed with you have I become, you have totally cocked up, you have shot up there on a mission with no real thought other than to be the man who removes the bolts from Broad Stand, well you haven`t have you, you have removed the hangers and left the stubs of the bolts in the rock, and as I cannot envisage anyone going up there with a drill capable of drilling them out, they will still be there when we are all dead and gone.
The first rule of the outdoors is to leave no trace well you`ve buggered that one up haven`t you, you may have proved a point, but you have left a scar on the rock for 100`s of years, if you had just had a little patience the stubs could have been drawn and maybe the holes filled, yes the Bolts should have been shifted, but not like this.

In reply to J1234:

For me at least it was never about a very small scar in a very large mountain, more the scar caused to our ethos of self-sufficient adventure. Bend with the mountain, not against it.

In reply to J1234:
Surely the ire should be reserved for the person who placed the bolts in the first place?

Do you know much about removing bolts? I don't, so would be interested to know how the stubs could ever be removed. Perhaps there's a way to do it without trashing the rock but I'm not so sure. Stand to be corrected.

As others have pointed out, from the description given the bolts were unsafe and therefore HAD to be removed promptly before someone got injured. If they had been properly placed, I'd have left them there but the consensus opinion on this thread seems to be that they should have been removed anyway. If the bolts had been safe it would have been best to open the matter to debate at the next BMC Lakes Area Meeting to get consensus from the locals. However they weren't safe from the sound of things.

To introduce another aspect to this discussion, what about all those rusty old pegs littering the crags in places where modern protection is perfectly sufficient? Should we be removing them (taking care not to trash the rock) or leaving them to rust away as relics of the past? Does it even matter? I try not to clip pegs so far as possible. If I could remove them easily I would but it doesn't seem to be worth the effort and the risk of damage to the rock.

In reply to Misha:
The people who placed them need their nuts chopping with a chisel, I do accept I am out of step with the crowd, in that i do not give a stuff about the ethics of climbing, it`s just i want to protect our wild places.
Tissue paper
orange peel
Bolts
mind it`s been going on for awhile, I found a 40 year old pop bottle, high up in eskdale the other week.

In reply to Jonno:

Can't see the bolts having been much help to fell walkers! Yep some carry confidence rope just for a direct delay round spike etc (as I've done..).

Useful if others in party have probs on sub grade 1/grade 1 ground.

Never heard of fell walkers carrying quickdraws lol.

In reply to Misha:


Surely that is a completely seperate discussion; dont see the connection?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
It's a related point though, isn't it? Sure, pegs placed on first ascents (or at least yonks ago) are different to bolts placed on a scramble, but they're similar in that in this day and age they are both unnecessary.

I suppose part of the argument for removing the bolts (assuming they had been safe and therefore not in need of urgent removal) is that they would be the thin end of the edge for retrobolting trad lines and crags - whereas the rusty pegs are from an earlier era and just part of the scenery now, there's little danger that someone would say "Oh look, there are a couple of pegs here, must be ok to bolt the line".

In reply to Misha:

It's about time the locals took control of this bl__dy mess. Well done to Steve Reid for his efforts and others of course.

In reply to Removed UserMisha:
Please read the references to Coleridge and Broad Stand on the 'bolts found on broad stand' topic afew days ago. Bolts on this climb/ scramble/ walk/ piece of land/ whatever you want to call it is nothing like the thin end of a wedge... it is license to bolt anything, anywhere, anytime, without consulting anyone. These bolts should never have gone in. There is no discussion or argument to be had on this subject. None

In reply to TobyA:

Absolutely. To keep up my spirits living so far from the sceptred isle I maintain a small corner of my home bouldering wall as a shrine to British ethics. It has an abseil anchor built from old slings over a loose block, a couple of stuck wires (MOACs of course) and a Huntsman's Leap style "natural" thread. On St George's Day or the Queen's Birthday I like to hang from it for an hour or so, reading aloud lines from Colin Kirkus or 1970s Ken Wilson editorials. Ideally naked, in a Whillans Harness with a pair of Ron Hills pulled tight over my head. Whoops, too much detail ...

In reply to Misha:

Pegs on trad routes are a grey area; bolts on scrambles are not.

General bolting question to anyone who knows:
Why are bolts fixed using the threaded bar and then a nut on top to secure the hanger? Why are 'bolts' not used? (Bolt being the threaded bar with a nut head) Would the latter method not be easier to remove at a later date? My thinking is that the hanger can be removed by removing the bolt and then the bolt re-inserted and screwed into the sleeve enough to get a grip. A slide hammer could then be used on the bolt head to remove the sleeve, all would remain then is the hole. No sleeve or chopped thread bar to rust over time. Perhaps the hole could be sealed with a plug of some sort that would blend into the natural colour of the rock.
It just seems to me that using the bar and nut type bolts that when it comes to removing them, once nut and hanger are gone there is nothing to grip on the stud to assist its removal, plus if you manage to remove the stud, there is still the problem of the sleeve inside the hole and nothing to grip it to pull it out.
I know nothing about bolting rock and do not sport climb, however I have made dozens of sets of gates (driveways etc) and these are secured to the brick pillars with sleave bolts. During fabrication, the gate frames are bolted in position to check measurements, check alignment etc and the sleave bolts are fixed and removed serveral times, sometimes I have had needed to remove the sleeve from the brick as well, using the slide hammer described has never caused any problems and is quick and clean.
I must be missing something??

In reply to blanchie14c:

My impression - I am not 100% sure - is that you are writing about two-piece sleeve anchors, for which placement is a three stage process: drill a hole, insert sleeve, screw in bolt to tighten? These are not used in climbing as far as I know. http://www.safeclimbing.org/education.htm is a good place to learn about climbing anchors; UKC is not!

In reply to tobyfk:
Yes thats the ones. Like i said though, I know nothing about bolting rock and always presumed the bolts used are the sleeve type, 3 stage ones you describe. Saved the link for an evenings enlightenment! Thanks!

In reply to tobyfk:

Old style bolts used in the mid - 80's and prior to that. Some here will remember placing old style troll 8mm sleeve caving bolts for climbing.

There is lots of expertise on UKC Toby, don't be so condescending.

James Titt for one: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=44022

Dam Middleton at the BMC another: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=69129

You are correct however Toby: Greg Barnes at ASCA is an authoritative source of bolting knowledge.

Mick

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: Well done.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:
Jeremy. You did the right thing.
For those that are 'worried' about the damage 'caused' by the described removal (as opposed to the damage both physical and moral caused by the original drilling) I would suggest you get up there with some resin or mortar mix and cover any vestige of the stubs - should be an easy job and then you too can sleep soundly.

In reply to blanchie14c:

One assumes that those who place bolts are not too concerned with their removal?

I mean you don't drill 3 bolts in broadstand without asking anyone and then think 'oh I wonder what the consensus is, maybe I better make them easily removable till I find out'

In reply to Misha:


Have you used pitons much? Even in the "distant past" (ie. 30 or 40 years ago!) most climbers only used pegs on British crags in summer when it was really necessary... tiny nuts on wires already existed and it was very much frowned upon to used pegs, as much, if not more, than today.

In the Alps and other bigger mountains the use of pitons is still acceptable and is not at all the same as bolts as you need to have a crack, you don't drill your own and make even a blank wall climbable. Confusing the two, perhaps because many climbers today are unfamiliar with pegs and don't even possess either pitons or a peg hammer, is not really very helpful and tends to be used as an excuse for bolting... a rather dishonest argument.

In reply to Removed User:
Never placed or removed a bolt ever. I just wondered what the reasoning behind the equipment used was. Was reading the re-bolting of a crag thread the other day and the same thought crossed my mind. I want to know why a 'stub' is used in preference to a 'bolt' is all. I have what looks a good link now so will study that and I should know the answer shortly!
Personally I feel the same as pretty much everone else. No bolts in our mountains, we managed for years without so why the need now? (Esp on a scramble FGS!!!!)
Well done to the OP for the removal job, sounds like it isn't quite finished as well as it could be yet though.

In reply to Misha:


Crock of sh*t, they should have been removed whatever. They certainly should not have been left (good or not) and there is no need to 'debate' the matter at the next BMC meeting FFS; these bolts are completely unacceptable to any right minded mountaineer.

In reply to Richard123:

Your right

The BMC already have a policy on this, there is no need for a debate
the bolts shouldnt be there.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

"There is lots of expertise on UKC Toby, don't be so condescending."

The reality is expertise here on the forums is pretty much useless as the good stuff is often buried in rubbish. Your articles are good but your editorial policy of allowing a democratic right for people to spout crap on the forums means IMHO they are fair game for Toby's comments.

As for the thread, thanks for those who removed the bolts: its a no-brainer. Bad bolts on a mountain crag where long standing consensus through BMC meeetings is overwhelmingly no bolts. Whats next, a zip line?

In reply to Dr Sidehead:

Notwithstanding BMC/majority view/etc. I can't think i've ever been displeased to see a nice new shiny secure belay/abseil station on a climb (admittedly mainly overseas).

It would be worth your while reading Jeremy's entire post as to why the other gear wasn't removed and perhaps note that this is only a temporary situation.

The whole issue of fixed protection on natural rock has been debated at length, and at a grassroots level, over many years and the overhwhelming concensus is that there is no place for it in Britain. This debate had been reinforced here on last week's thread and again the majority are opposed to its use.

Leaving the ethics aside, this case also highlights why fixed pro isn't the answer.

1 The bolts were placed close to perfectly serviceable situtions for removeable protection.

2 One of the bolts was placed in insecure rock - in this instance it may say more about the judgement of the person who placed the bolt, but crags are a dynamic environment and placements that were once secure can deteriorate. Yet people will often, and automatically rely on them without thinking.

3 When a climber (or scrambler) places their own protection they are far more likely to think about the security of its placement, rather than unthinkingly relying on permanent protection which may have deteriorated. Leaving aside the debate about the ethics of fixed ropes in the alps, I think you'll find that the local Guides check on the security of pre-placed gear on a regular basis and replace if it's deteriorating. They have a commercial reason for doing, this so the gear remains relatively secure.

There's nobody in the UK who would feel the need to do this on a regular and ongoing basis, so - leaving aside the ethical issue - on a purely H&S issue bolts aren't the answer.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:
Good work chaps. Its a sad day when bolts start appearing in places such as broad stand, simply because some punter wants to make their life easier/safer. In placing these bolts they are robbing themselves and if they cant understand the effect this has on others. Think its all been said on this thread, but if your putting bolts in on broad stand... well you just dont get it at all and you should proberbly not be out on the crags at all. Only my opinion mind....

In reply to Offwidth: I agree with Offwidth about the amount of rubbish that one has to wade through to get to the nuggets of gold on these forums.

Coincidentally, the user profile of one of the main posters on this thread includes 'I will talk rubbish about any subject...'. Can you guess who it is?!

In reply to Nigel Coe:

I reckon on any given thread about anything technical there is a ratio of 5 to 1 of incorrect bollocks to high quality posts.

The real problem of course is that usually the people that really need to know probably can't tell the difference...

In reply to Removed User:

Quite!

Glad the bolts have gone and thanks to the people who removed them.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I appreciate the difference between bolts and pitons/pegs, what I was saying was that they are similar in that they are often unnecessary these days on trad routes. As you say, in the past pegs were used more often. At some crags like Millstone aid climbing on pegs was the done thing and led to the creation of fantastic free climbs for us to enjoy today. Different ethics at the time I guess... Of course this was confined to a few crags.

Worth noting that pegs are still used on some of today's harder routes. I suppose they're not as reliable and unnatural as a bolt, so you can get away with them on a trad route.

The Alps are a different matter, anything goes... well, now quite, still nice to do a route clean but I've stepped on a peg a couple of times on Alpine climbs, where speed is more important than the purity of the ascent.

In reply to Removed User:
(Off topic) You're assuming there is such a thing as a correct answer. Sometimes there is, but often there are a few possibilities, each with their own pros and cons. It's rare to have a perfect solution with no drawbacks in a climbing / mountaineering context. Climbers need to know the various options available and be able to make an informed selection. It's therefore useful to find out about other people's ideas. As you say, some of these will indeed be inappropriate and you need a bit of experience to be able to identify these poor suggestions, but hopefully someone else will point this out.

In reply to Misha:


Er .. did you read Bruce's post? He actually said, rightly, that 'it was very much frowned upon to use pegs, as much, if not more, than today.'

>At some crags like Millstone aid climbing on pegs was the done thing and led to the creation of fantastic free climbs for us to enjoy today.

A completely different point. They were purely artificial climbs.

>Different ethics at the time I guess... Of course this was confined to a few crags.

Absolutely. And the ethics were quite a lot stronger then than now.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'll defer to you two on your knowledge of ethics from a while back.

Would it be fair to say though that putting a few pegs in was more widespread back then than it is now (excepting places like Millstone, which as you say is a different matter)? Not an ethics point, more a reflection of the limitations of the other gear that was available (in particular, no cams, never mind microcams)?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

True. But that doesn't make UKC a good place to learn about the practicalities of bolting, because so many threads on that kind of topic are spammed by the willy-waving ethics-warrior crowd (the exception seems to be threads specific to Portland ... perhaps as an island of the south coast the WWEWs consider it to be in "Europe"). The administrators of this forum could perhaps improve that situation by setting up a 'Sport Climbing' sub-forum though it would need to be moderated appropriately.

Pot / kettle, Mick.

In reply to Robin Ashcroft:


Despite your authoritative tone, this is actually bollocks. Several sport climbing cliffs in the UK - LPT, Malham, Kilnsey, Portland, etc - are indisputably "natural", yet are accepted by the consensus.

In reply to tobyfk:

You're right, although perhaps if he'd said mountain crags he'd have been right wouldn't he?

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

is 100+ posts due course yet?

at least it would mean that those of us who have never been there, and never will can at least put this into some sort of context.

i mean they managed to get pics of the bolts on everest....(hang on don't go there!).

i am assuming you have the before and after shots?

In reply to Dave Garnett:


I guess it depends on what you call a mountain? Is Malham at a lower altitude than, say, the Grochan? And aren't there still some bolts in Glencoe? Plus some people get awfully steamed up about bolts on sea cliffs too. Witness the aggro over Carn Vellan a few years back. Certain limestone sea cliffs seem to be fair game - ie LPT, Portland - whilst others aren't - ie Pembroke. Essentially I believe it is impossible to express a clear generally-applicable objective rule as to where UK bolts do or do not belong in less than, say, fifty words .... there's a challenge for someone, scope for a UKC competition even?

In reply to Morgan Woods: Hi Morgan, I went up with Julian to observe in my role as a journalist. I am busy compiling an article and need to consult various sources. The pictures/films will be released when it is finished. Julian specifically asked me to update UKC as he has no access to a home computer at present, and he cannot post from work. I will post a link and publication details in due course - sorry I can't be more specific re dates.

In reply to tobyfk:

Yes, I thought of 'trad sea cliffs' and I didn't mean mountain crags were the only area where bolts were unwelcome. However, I think we all know what we mean by the trad crags of Snowdonia, the Lakes and the Highlands. It's not entirely logical but surely fair to say that there is an overwhelming consensus about not bolting here. It has occasionally been tested over the last thirty years or so, but the ethic has held pretty firm.

Limestone does seem to regarded differently, although I can't for the life of me see why. Is it ultimately because that's what they bolt on the continent and so it must be at least arguably OK? Is it because of the history of aid climbing and the lingering impression that trad protection isn't completely trustworthy? Or maybe it's because a lot of it is quarried and so artificial in the first place? Obviously none of this is a logical reason for tolerating bolting at Malham, so it must come down to something less rational.

The constant seems to be that bolting is less likely to be tolerated where there is a history of trad climbing, whereas for newly-developed area the ethic is fixed by the pioneers. In the case of Broad Stand that makes the issue pretty clear.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

Due to their positions they appear to have been of little use either as abseil anchors or for protecting the pitch whilst climbing conventionally.

The bolts appear to have been placed primarily for the benefit of walkers whilst ascending or descending Broad Stand - hence the attached knotted rope.

Broad Stand, despite it's historical place in literature and climbing folklore is a short awkward passage on a glorified walk between England's two highest summits, that has seen its share of serious accidents over the years. Instead of bolts and their associated bits of tat, why not fix a couple of VF type steel rungs in place? It would be of benefit to all particularly in bad weather, not least to the Wasdale MRT.

It would need to be the subject of wide consultation and approval before it was done, AND be the only such permitted 'ladder' in the Lakes. (I can't think of anywhere else that might warrant one)

In reply to Lord of Starkness:



Let's just say there doesn't appear to be much approval flying around here. 1/10 I'm afraid

In reply to Lord of Starkness:
>

I'd like to see a VF-type ladder installed on the Bad Step on Crinkle Crags too... And maybe one on the start of Crack and Corner at the Roaches... And the institution of a new TV talent show for raptors - Britain's Got Talons.

In reply to Clauso:
Sharp Edge is more dangerous - so a cable there?

And Napes Needle could be a bit more 'accessible' don't you think...?

In reply to Lord of Starkness:

People have died on Jack's Rake, so why not add one there. Striding edge likewise. While we're at it why should the summit of Pillar Rock be the preserve of climbers? Or even Napes Needles.....

The simple fact is that such acts of vandalism would not make these places any safer, they might even have the opposite effect. They would lure people without the neccessary skills into areas where they are exposed to other dangers and out of their depths

In reply to Lord of Starkness:


... which can be avoided by taking a different route.

In reply to TonyG:

Whilst the UKC collective view may be strongly against, I doubt whether they represent the majority of those who fequent the Lakeland tops - the vast majority of whom will not have heard of this site, or the attitudes of most UK climbers to bolts on the fells. It would be interesting to find out what sort of response the suggestion would receive if it was 'floated' in one of the popular walking / rambling magazines.

It's not as if the fells are so pristine and devoid of bits or rusting ironmongery - you don't have to look far for the remanants of rusty fence posts, not to mention concrete trig points, constructed paths, and massive erosion scars caused by the passage of thousands of feet.

In reply to tony:

Undoubtedly. And it were steeper or more difficult, most walkers / scramblers would be forced to take the alternative route. However because it's relatively short and not too difficult, a lot of people choose to go via Broad Stand, even though they lack the experience to do so in all conditions, and that's when the problems occur.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


I think that is generally right, though "newly-developed" and "pioneers" are again rather subjective. Malham was climbed trad for years before young punks like, er, Mick Ryan, arrived with their drills. But that didn't seem to matter. Conversely Carn Vellan had a couple of obscure trad routes from way back but wasn't well known until the Edwards' bolted some hard routes. Those were chopped, then restored by other local climbers. As I recall, it then transpired that some self-righteous mob in Bristol decided that it was their "local" crag too, crowded out a BMC meeting and got their way ...

In reply to Lord of Starkness:

Fell off my chair!

I think you have just embarked on the cyber equivalent of sticking a Post-It note marked "kick me" on your arse then walking around outside a pub at closing-time.

In reply to Lord of Starkness:


I like the idea, but you would never get it though. Never mind eh?

In reply to Lord of Starkness:
It would be interesting to find out what sort of response the suggestion would receive if it was 'floated' in one of the popular walking / rambling magazines.

The immediate response to your suggestion on 'Live for the outdoors' (lfto) is to ask if you could arrange a handrail along Crib Goch as well while you're at it.....

In reply to Andy Say:

I agree. Why should walkers be denied the chance to stand on a historic summit like Napes Needle. It is the pure elitism of climbers that deny this right to them.

In reply to Lord of Starkness:

They don't know how to turn round and go back? What are they, lemmings? [no offence meant to the poster of that name btw]

In reply to Removed User:


Typical able-bodied elitism! Disabled access to this historic spot is long overdue. Surely providing a wheelchair ramp is the least we can do?

In reply to Dave Garnett: I think its missing a dog flap too.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

cheers Jeremy, i wasn't really complaining just more curious, so look forward to your pics.

In reply to tobyfk:

Yes but it was only aid climbing on the main wall and overhang though. The trad routes were on the wings. Likewise with Carn Vellan I think. Of course, this 'unclimbable by normal means' type argument always leads to problems where the crag has been largely trad previously (bits of Cheedale spring to mind). I'm slightly surprised that there wasn't more of a fuss about Malham, to be honest. Maybe there was but somehow I failed to notice it, possibly because I was on a different continent at the time.

In reply to Andy Say:


It was floated several years ago in 'Trail' magazine, and shot down pretty univerally by its readers, via the letter pages.

In marked contrast to the idiotic drivel that the self-appointed "experts" of UKC continue to post here.

In reply to Dave Garnett: an escalator from wasdale inn all the way to napes needle, with wheel barrow access, attached by a chain, at the bottom of the needle should be a hammer and chisel for gathering souvenieers, then every visitor can take away a piece of the historic lake district......
i can imagine the BBQs, "see that lump of rock over there, in the corner of the garden? people used to climb that"

In reply to Dave Garnett:

That's correct. Though the original trad routes at Carn Vellan were rather more obscure and untravelled than the routes on the Malham wings. But the point is that the destiny of those crags has proved different: the Carn Vellan sport routes have been expunged.

In reply to KeithW (LMC):



Keith

I'll ask you one more time to please desist from labelling individuals who post on these forums as "of UKC".

They are individuals, the express their own opinions, they are not the opinions of UKClimbing.com.

I can't be clearer than that.

Cheers,

Mick

In reply to Lord of Starkness:

As a walker who has climbed a bit I am totally against any sort of VF or bolts on BS or anywhere else come to that. BS is avoidable and also a lot of walkers would not have the equipment or skills to protect it properly anyway, even if bolted. Also it would only be the start. Surely Slab & Notch on Pillar Rock would justify it too? There is no easy way to the top of Pillar Rock BS is avoidable. Don't people die or suffer serious injury on VF's in Europe?

In reply to KeithW (LMC):

I spout drivel on here as and when I chose, and I am not of UKC, and it`s my personal drivel. But i`ll tell you one thing if I was the official spokesman for a club, I would be a hell of a lot more circumspect in my postings than you are, and I would spell check everything as well.
Cheers Beds

In reply to tobyfk:

I've seen this before - you don't like the "Bristol mob" having a say over ethics elsewhere in the region do you? Why?

I'm assuming that the meetings were open to all? Would it have been the same if a group of climbers from Devon had popped down? I'm a bit puzzled as to why the ethics of an area should only be a preserve of those who live near enough for you to count them as locals?

FWIW, the people who did the chopping at Carn Vellan did an incredibly ugly job of it - I was down there a few years ago and it was shockingly ugly. They ought to be ashamed of themselves for the quality of the work they did - placing bolts and then them being simply chopped apart and pried open with a crowbar (they were staples I could see mainly) is not a "2 wrongs making a right" situation.....

AJM

In reply to AJM:


That's quite a big subject and pretty off-topic for the thread (yes, I know I started it but it's a good case study of the escheresque world of UK climbing ethics). But, quickly, a couple of observations: 1. rightly or wrongly, it's quite common to hear people say that ethics should be decided by "locals"; in this case it seemed bizarre for Bristol climbers to have been claiming rights over somewhere that far away. Bristol is actually closer to Llanberis than Carn Vellan! 2. personally I don't much like hypocrisy and given the tangled mess of route ethics around the immediate Bristol area, it seemed especially rich to be dictating purity to others. I could add a little further colour to that in an email if you like ... possibly not in public!

In reply to tobyfk:

You have mail

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

Can someone explain the difference between bolts on BS and:

1) Abseil posts on CMD arete
2) Large mountain rescue 'box' on BS

Arguments of 'alternate routes exist', 'minimal visual impact in mountains', 'safety is no argument', 'trad methods of protection exist' and 'not the culture of UK mountains' get selectively ignored when convenient.

I said on the other thread and I'll say again: I don't think many of the public care about the balance of risk vs safety and would rather take safer options. Sadly, the very confusing situation of seemingly random use of bolts by climbers will result in some ill-informed group placing more bolts. I do hope I'm wrong, but I suspect the cycle of bolt-chop-bolt-chop will force a permanent solution.

In reply to Toccata:

Very, very simple. 1 and 2 above are all removable, with no affect on the fabric of the mountain. Bolts etc., like chipping holds, are a permament defacement. I agree that, mostly, they are trivial and, sometimes, they can be the most sensible option, but overall they represent the thin end of a very dangerous wedge, which has already done huge amounts of damage in Europe. The wider end of the wedge is via ferrata of all kinds, walkways etc etc.

You are probably aware that e.g. the Zmutt Ridge of the Matterhorn was recently equipped with bolts, and as far as I know the only people who are happy with this extraordinarily retrogressive development are some of the guides, who see this as a way of making extra money.


a) It's not that they don't care, they don't know. If you don't know about something, you don't have any cares about it.

b) Of course people who are not climbers or mountaineers don't want to take risks in the mountains. I entirely sympathise with them, but don't see how this consideration is remotely relevant to the broader picture of conserving our mountain landscape.

In reply to tobyfk:

As I said I was playing devils advocate - You almost know me well enough even though we've not met, If I see a large spoon I will stir, or If I see a pointy stick I will wave it in the direction of an inflated ego - just for the hell of it!

In reply to wayne els:

The tops of Pillar Rock and Napes Needle have always been the preserve of rock climbers and unlike Broad Stand are an obstruction on a well trodden path.

Sharp Edge ( and Striding Edge) are undoubtedly more dangerous but they are still footpaths that do not necessitate the use of hands to ascend them. Almost anyone can ascend them is good conditions, but are the preserve of the experienced walker when conditions are poor.

In reply to Lord of Starkness:


Sorry, I can't unravel that bit of dialogue. Sharp Edge and Striding Edge are more dangerous than what? Slab and Notch on Pillar??

I think if you want place bolts in rock or in the mountains you should join the BMC and have your say in the many debates we've had,the BMC is for climbers/fell runners/walkers/scramblers and just about anybody with an interest in the mountains.Why should one person decide to do something that we all have a say in?.we all have a say in what happens in our mountains,and people should respect that!


P.s. A big thank you to Jeremy and Julian.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:



I think I am correct in saying that this did not in fact occur in the end, due to huge pressure from pretty much everyone. Agree with all the points in your post though.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Don't be silly Gordon. Via Ferratas were the result of WWI, a slightly larger phenomenon than how climbers choose to attach themselves to mountainsides at the weekend.

"Thin end of the wedge" is rapidly turning in to my least favour cliché since you couldn't turn on Radio 4 without hearing them talk about bloody "boots on the ground".

In reply to TobyA:

Your point being?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Vie ferrate, please, gordon

In reply to TobyA:

Hear, hear!... Nearly as bad as UKC where you can't browse a thread without some moron banging on about owls, tapirs or action men called Kirk... It's the thin end of the wedge and needs to be firmly stamped out.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

Broad Stand - Sca Fell

SOME FACTS:
1. This climb goes at Diff.
2. Looking at the log book graphs on here, the majority of posters can lead at Diff
3. A good proportion can also solo diff.
4. Looking at the log book ticks, very very very very very very few of the posters on here have done Broad stand.
5. In fact there is quite a small group of people qualified to comment - just 11
6. The NT owns Sca Fell
7. Did the people who placed the bolts get permission from the NT?
8. If you can lead or solo diff then why do you need to place bolts?
9. If you have not ever ticked Broad Stand then why are you qualified to comment?
10. If the bolters didn't get permission then they are in the wrong. If the bolters did get permission then they are in the right.
11. A diff climb runs at about F3 for an indoor lead which 99% of people on here wouldn't even bother with.

Conclusion:
The majority of climbers on here will never tick Broad Stand because they are too busy chasing grades on micro grit crags to bother with a 10 minute Diff climb at the end of a 1.5 hour walk in. FACT

The majority of climbers on here will however kill their granny at the mention of the word bolt. Even though the likes of Joe Brown was smashing pitons in all over Europe 30 years before you were born and yet you aspire to be like Joe Brown. FACT

This leave us with one final point, which no one has even clicked on to.

Why bolt a mountain diff? Why not bolt Bottrills slab?

In reply to PDL:

In ascent, for a couple of moves, I'd put it a lot harder.


Very few, including myself, would put this in a climbing log book. I believe I have done it just three times in 40 years of climbing.


Everything you say about it implies that you, actually, have not done it. Irony of ironies.


You now weaken your case still further by bringing in the notion of a 'tick', which to most genuine climbers - though not to many wannabes - has extremely little meaning.

No, not fact, but complete ignorance. JB's attitude to pegs is and has always been extremely purist. What was astonishing about most of his early classic ascents was just how few pegs he used for either aid or protection, long before the advent of modern protection.

I don't believe he climbed anywhere in Europe, apart from Britain, France and Switzerland, before c. 1967.

Most people on this thread have been talking exactly about this point.

In reply to tobyfk:

Have been for a while - The Cad for example. Plus ca change...

In reply to Andy Say:

I fancy having a go at The Walk of Life, can someone stick a few rungs in it please? I'll be content with E9, not in it for the hype, just the experience that matters.

In reply to PDL:
Why not? It's a discussion about the appropriateness or otherwise of bolting, as opposed to something that you really could only comment on if you have done the climb, such as the grade. By the way, I would say 'done' rather than 'ticked'. 'Tick' somehow gives the wrong impression.

In reply to mac7120:


Few would disagree with that in general terms but democracy requires definition of the appropriate electorate. At the moment the BMC seems to allowing voting by whoever turns up at an area meeting, which can allow people from outside an area to overturn local consensus. If we really should "all have a say" then there should be a postal or online voting system open to all members. That's not my personal recommendation, but it would be the logical progression.

In reply to PDL:


Another person who doesn't see the difference between pitons, which use natural rock features, cracks, holes etc. and bolts which are used on chipped holes crated artificially. FACT.

PS. It's funny how chipping holds is universally condemned but not chipping holes for bolts... curious.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: I have now updated the original Broad Stand log to include the following text as I did not want anyone using Broad Stand to be misled by my original text.

090610 Update - The bolts and ropes have now been removed by the climbing fraternity http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=358401. Please be aware that the description given above regarding bolts and ropes is no longer accurate.

Cheers All
TelB

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Ken Wilson described placing pegs as 'bending a knee' to the rock - meaning as you put it Bruce that they can only go where there are cracks or seams.

Whereas bolts can be placed anywhere.

Bolts are great Bruce - an essential part of climbing - but only if used wisely - and that is the nub of the problem.

In the wrong hands bolts and the drill can be very destructive and have a great impact on adventure, aesthetics and the environment.

David Brower, one of the greatest environmentalists in the USA, placed bolts on Shiprock in the 1930's.

Mick

Mick

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Gordy - most people on here are aged between 14 and 17 so my comments about JB stand.

As for the use of the word 'tick' then most people on here have a simpleton 'tick' mentality, I use the term as a figure of fun. In fact if I want to say Tick, Send, Lead, Climbed, Bumbled, Gibbed etc I will and if you have a problem with that then I am ever so sorry. But Hell Yes you understood which make you by your own 'Law of Stainfroth' a 'Non Genuine Climber' oh now that is so funny.

I stand by my comments, why the hell was this route bolted? Thats the question which no one as yet has asked. Most people on here have been saying well done for chopping. No one has progressed to say but why?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Pitons also cause scarring of the rock, especially when used as a semi permanent fixture. I've seen loads of peg scarred walls and manky pegs that have obviously changed the nature of the rock around them.

Surely a purist such as yourself would condemn the use of pitons in any circumstance, now the long term damage is known ( aside from the fact things can go wrong when they are hammered in and result in one big chip).

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

So if I started pinging pitons/pegs all over Stanage then you would be ok with that? Mick don't forget that in a purist sense I will be 'bending my knee' banging pitons in on some of the Stanage classic's.

In reply to PDL:
Do you really, seriously believe that? The idea that only people who can be arsed to have a UKC logbook and equally arsed to record the fact that they have 'ticked' Broad Stand constitute the only group that has a right through 'qualification' to comment on this beggars belief.

In reply to Andy Say:

Dear Mr Say, I can only offer you the Facts as they are written, however, I will edit my commets to include your goodself. That now makes 12. Please comment or have you 'say' so to speak.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

You should worry, here in Spain we even have hold being glued on to facitilitate moves (not to replace lost holds, to create new ones) I think thats an even thinner end of the wedge.

In reply to Andy Say:

I don't have a logbook, most is so long ago I have forgotten half the routes I have done. I do know I ticked the whole of the Old Laddow guide and all but half a dozen routes in the original Stanage guide.

Also been up and down Broad stand a few times, roped in the rain after reading of so many fatalities there.

In reply to Al Evans:

Not much wedge left, really, once you've got to that point.

In reply to sutty:

Sutty you CANNOT say ticked on here, please sit in the corner for one hour exactly.

Dear Mr Say, that now makes 13.

In reply to Lord of Starkness:
It would be interesting to find out what sort of response the suggestion would receive if it was 'floated' in one of the popular walking / rambling magazines.
Hardly scientific but this group of 'walkers' have an opinion - http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/Community-Landing/Forum-Landing/Forum-Cat...

In reply to PDL:
I use my logbook to record climbs, not scrambles or descent routes.

Unlike so many of the bolt debates on here, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of contributors to this thread have climbed or descended the route in question

In reply to PDL:

Some of you really are clueless!

In reply to PDL:

Absolutely clueless.

Around 10,000 different people visit UKC everyday - over 100,000 different individuals a month.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


That's an opinion, not a fact. The word "essential" is quite obviously inappropriate as for years people climbed without bolts, and the best did so to a level that most today cannot repeat.

Can you be absolutely certain you are totally objective on this issue? Did you not do a bit of bolting yourself? If you had not used bolts, would it have been such a big deal... a few square metres of rock would have remained un-free-climbed for a few decades, probably, but how does that compare to the massive changes that bolts have created? - especially outside Britain.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Mick, your self indulgence aside answer can you answer my question please, will you be happy if I banged a load of pegs all over Stanage? It is alright quoting XY and Z to back up a point but then to ignore my question by stating some of the people who keep you employeed are clueless makes a mockery of your first statement.

Can you answer the question please?

In reply to PDL:

BBBBBbbut I DID tick the guides to remind me what I had done and with who.

BTW most modern guides are useless, another place on another thread for why

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Visit or post?

In reply to sutty:

Don't worry Sutty I am stood in the corner next to you, soon to be joined by MICK UKC who thinks it is ok to bang pegs in Stanage

In reply to Papillon:

I'm not a purist for a start, and secondly don't think pitons should be used more than absolutely necessary.. and probably not at all on crags in summer when it may be better to retreat (for new routes, I mean, none should be used otherwise unless already in place, of course) but there is still an essential difference between using natural features and creating artificial features, whether chipping, bolting, cemented holds (yes, I've seen this done in France!). I don't think one can logically make much difference between using a bolt for protection or progress. This seems nearly as futile as that between "resting" on gear and using it for progression.

All this in theory... in practice if someone was faced with any action to save his or someone else's life than it would be anything goes, I'm just saying what I think we should do, or not do normally, and just giving an opinion... I wouldn't chuck rocks at bolters for example, but removing them (the bolts, that is) seems to me to be no worse an act that that of the those who put them in... with or without BMC decision.

In reply to tobyfk:I think you could be on to somthing,If the BMC could make voting more accessible that would be great.

In reply to PDL:


Obviously complete bollocks. I've down climbed Broadstand but I can't be arsed to get so anally retentive as to put it in a log book.

In reply to Andy Say:

Generally the sorts of views I'd have expected, with the majority in favour of leaving Broad Stand in as near a natural state as possible (it's difficult to remove the bolt stubs without causing further damage).

For what it's worth, I'm wholly in favour of the natural state of things, but as I said originally I was playing 'devils advocate' regarding VF type rungs.

I've only ever descended Broad Stand once, - many moons ago - unroped, after ascending Moss Ghyll. I was with people who had done it before, so could see where they went. I saw no need for a rope then, but could see that many inexperienced folk might feel the benefit of one - particularly on first acquaintance.

In reply to PDL:


I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say but you might have a point with this one. I think we do sometimes confuse what we as climbers have a right to do with that which would meet with majority approval. We tend not (thank God) to analyse these things in terms of property, theft and criminal damage but just occasionally, when people are at their most self-righteous, it's worth remembering.

However, I might be wrong but the idea that the bolters consulted the NT and obtained their permission strikes me as improbable.

In reply to PDL:

Jeez, do try and hold more than one idea in your head at once.

Arbitrary ethical consensus 1: pegs are sometimes justifiable where bolts are not.

Arbitrary ethical consensus 2: but not on Stanage.

In reply to PDL:

You are one step away from having posts deleted Paul. As an editor at this site I won't tolerate having my words twisted on this important issue.

I explained, using a Ken Wilson quote, the difference between pegs and bolts.

I more than most understand the nuances of UK ethics.

Mick

In reply to PDL:

What's your background? How long have you climbed? Where have you climbed? Are you just a piss taker?

If you don't understand the nuances of fixed gear on UK rock you'd better listen to someone who does.

Comprendé

In reply to tobyfk:


First of all, the BMC does not bolt crags. It does have a big stack of bolts (bulk purchase for economy) which it distributes to local bolt funds for replacement of existing olds bolts. The bolts should not be used either for new projects, nor for retrobolting trad lines.

Secondly, the BMC does not police local bolting policy. It does however provide a forum where such policies can be discussed. If someone decides not to adhere to such a policy, there's not much the BMC can do. At the end of the day, BMC members do not have exclusive rights to use any particular crag.

Finally, online or postal voting for such policies would be daft. If you feel strongly about an issue, turn up at an area meeting and have your say. Yes that requires a bit more commitment and effort than posting your thoughts on her, or walking to a post box, or ticking a box on a computer screen. And that's the point.

In reply to Chris the Tall:



That's how it should be and always has been.

We have an unwritten code as regards what we tolerate and what we don't: where pegs and bolts are allowed and where they are not. Individual actions determine that.

This is a great example of self-regulation by individual climbers.

Congratulations to Julian Carradice, Jeremy Ashcroft and others for keeping the spirit of climbing in the UK alive.

Mick

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Not all genuinely interested parties are always able to attend area meetings due to time or geographical constraints. There may be historical reasons why they have a strong interest in particular 'local' issues. Their voice is no less vaild. Local meetings do run the risk of being hi-jacked by parochial cliques with vested interests, resulting in a less than democratic result.

In reply to Lord of Starkness:

I agree with you whole heartedly.

I had to pull up a BMC officer on that point.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

>>

This is the bit I don`t like "What we tolerate" who the hell do you think you are.
Climbers say no bolts on broad stand and out come the chisels, what if in 50 years climbers decide to bolt the east buttress because thats the prevailing consensus, is the world supposed to sit by.
Yes totally agree get rid of the bolts

I don`t own the crags, you don`t own the crags we are just using them for a brief moment in time, minimal impact all the way, but don`t come the "What we tolerate" talk.
I`m in Wasadale this weekend I think i`ll have a scoot up and look at these bolts.
Cheers Beds

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:
Good work

In reply to J1234:

I don't understand your objection to "...what we tolerate and what we don't..." I think Mick was spot on. Did I miss something?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I can't quite work out whether he's being serious or just winding everyone else up. Limitations of email discussions I suppose.

In reply to J1234:


Odd thing to post on a thread entitled, " Broad Stand bolts have been removed "

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Hi Mick,
As a newb, may I please ask, are you speaking for the whole of UKC in, terms of representative, or as an independent climber please?

For example, I appreciate that many climbers want to congratulate Jeremy for removing the bolts. Is that apprpropriate that you do so as well when you obviously are a representative of UKClimbing? Is this now the position of UKClimbing that the congratulations is a formal statement?

Puzzled, as I have seen your remonstrations with others when they seem to have suggested that UKC is representative and you have challenged that interpretation.

Also puzzled regarding `We have an unwritten code'. How can anyone begin to understand an `unwrittten code'. It is my experience that `unwritten codes' tend to be vague, unchallengable and change as to the needs of the individual(s) asserting that `unwritten code'. How can I access that `unwritten code'?

Do `individual actions' determine the unwritten code? So, if someone goes out and puts up bolts everywhere then that becomes the defacto `unwritten code'?

This is a great example of self-regulation by individual climbers? How about if other climbers undertook actions which you disapporved of. Would this too be Great Self-Regulation?

In reply to Lord of Starkness:

The local commitee should take your comments to the meeting for you if you have strong views but cannot attend (the Peak area certainly will). In the case of hijack by a pressure group in numbers, the chair should deal with this face to face: state that they suspect the views of those present are not representative given that there is a new large group of attendees (we sign in afterall) with a common argument counter to the 'normal' balance of views of the meeting and hence ask permission to defer the decision to the next meeting (refusal by the meeting would give full justification to a later counter-motion anyway).

In reply to J1234:
Don't quite get your point. Are you basically saying that nothing should ever be bolted as it would damage the rock? That's a very purist and self-limiting approach - there would then be no sport climbing, yet that's an accepted and very useful aspect of the 'broad church' of climbing, in fact some people focus on it exclusively and who are we to tell them what they should be doing? As Mick says, you just need to make sure bolting is carried out in a sensible manner, adhering to the prevailing ethical consensus of the day.

If in 50 years' time people think it's ok to bolt Stanage then so be it (though obviously I hope that would never come to pass), we won't be around any more and can't dictate to future generations what they can or can't do.

There has been some ridiculous misinterpretation of other people's views on this thread, though not on your part from what I recall. Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that bolts should proliferate freely, just that bolting (and pegging) needs to be done in line with the consensus of the day. BMC local area meetings are the right medium to discuss that (I take the point that they might be imperfect but at the end of the day if something is really important to you, you should be able to make time for it).

I think it would be fair to say that the vast majority of bolting carried out these days complies with today's ethics. Let's not forget that the Broad Stand bolts are the exception rather than the rule, and long may it remain so.

In reply to Wotcha:

Pull the other one

In reply to Wotcha:

Aren't bolting policies set out on paper in BMC documents? Plus most guidebooks are quite clear regarding local ethics, you just need to be bothered to read the introduction. Don't know how long you've been climbing but if you've been getting out with experienced people who have an interest in climbing history and ethics you will hopefully have picked up a fair bit about the ethics of today and yesteryear.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Mick, of course I don't think individual posters' opinions are approved by UKC, and you're building a strawman by trying to imply otherwise.

For whatever reason, the two recent threads on this subject have been pretty poor. There's irrelevant debate over who actually owns the land; facetious remarks about bolting other crags; spurious appeals to public safety; and the kind of 6th-Form debating society logic that says if you've ever clipped a rusty peg or used a fixed abseil point, you must accept the unregulated bolting of any scramble or climb in the country.

Fortunately, there are local people who are prepared to go up and sort out the problem, rather than get bogged down in fruitless pondering on here. Thanks very much to Jeremy, Julian, Peter and Stephen.

By the way, I am *not* a spokesperson for any other LMC members; and this is entirely my own opinion.

(And the irony of having to make that clear is not lost on me.)

In reply to Misha:
It`s climbers claiming some sort of ownership i object to, saying this bolting is okay but that bolting is not, and I find the phrase "what we will tolerate" a bit strong.
On natural rock in Britain IMHO there should be no bolting, ever, having said that I`m a total hypocrite as I am off to Sardinia in a few months and have Climbed bolted natural rock in Kalymnos and Sardinia and have Via Ferrattaed.
If we don`t watch out we will have people bolting wooden holds onto routes to make them doable, then were will our ethics be.
Cheers Beds

In reply to J1234:

it's ok as long as you are in a different post code area.

In reply to PDL:


Can I make it 14? I'm afraid that, having last climbed it late in pregnancy, I haven't had time to set up a UKC Logbook since to record the ascent.

At my time my major concern was that I'd get stuck in Fat Man's Agony, and need to be rescued by Julian - which would have rendered me the laughing stock of my own rescue team, as I doubt very much he'd have kept it a secret.

In reply to Carolyn:
which would have rendered me the laughing stock of my own rescue team, as I doubt very much he'd have kept it a secret.

What? The rescue; or the pregnancy

In reply to Wotcha:



Yes. And they already do. But I put up with them. If I felt strongly enough I'd get off my sad ass and go and do something about it.

How we are, and the current situation we are in is because of the actions and the inaction of individuals - and peer pressure.

Anyone could go and place bolts or pegs on natural grit, but they don't. Why is that?

Convenience bolts on the UK's mountain crags - no one who works at UKC would put up with that. I'm sure we could take an editorial stance on that one.

But there again - metal chains to replace well used ab points that rely on fixed webbing.....that maybe different (I'm thinking Gimmer Crahg and the Inn Pin on Skye).

You do know the difference, yes?

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Hi Mick,
Thanks for the answer. I appreciate the forthright view in terms of UKC willing to take up an editorial stance regarding convenience bolts on the UK'S Mountain Crags.

Yes, I do understand the difference between convenience bolts and ab points. I also understand others' opinions that any aid permanently attached to a crag would be wrong. I am in that camp.

Presumably, providing they were local climbers, you would applaud those who would remove the current ab point from the In Pin as they have got up and actually done something?

Jeremy, are you going bomb up to remove the ab point this weekend?

As official bolt remover has anyone else any other bolts to suggest that Jeremy removes?

In reply to Wotcha:

Cheers Wotcha.

We have an accord.

Mick

In reply to Wotcha:



Perhaps the over-bolting, or grid bolting, of some sport climbing areas in the UK: recent Portland activity and some on Yorkshire Limestone.

Not only does grid bolting spoil the integrity and aesthetics of sport climbing, but also can be downright dangerous at popular areas- people falling on top of each other.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Yup we definitely have an accord.
Jeremy do you charge per bolt or by the hour?

In reply to Wotcha:

As Jeremy has made clear, he didn't remove the bolts.

The Wasdale MRT leader did.

In reply to BGSec: Ahhh, sorry! Thanks for the correction.
The Wasdale MRT Leader is obviously too busy to nip up to Skye etc so I'll have a go myself next time that I'm up there.

I'll start a new thread perhaps requesting locations of bolts and permanent metal fixtures to be removed including the unsightly remains from Broad Stand.

In reply to Wotcha:

That, doing it yourself as opposed to taking the mick out of the two folks who did the BS removal, at least shows some personal integrity. But it rather seems to miss the not so subtle distinction between a (removable)cable on the Inn. Pin. acting as an abseil anchor and a set of bolts, in drilled holes, on Broad Stand acting as anchors for a hand-line.
I would agree that neither should be there; but they are different cases.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Mick,

Thank you for your reply. Can I refer you and everyone else to the last line of my original post?

"....Why bolt a mountain diff? Why not bolt Botterill's slab? "

Do you understand what I am getting. Seeing that Botterill's slab is not too far away from Broad Stand but no one has ever mentioned it. Seems strange to me. I suppose the point is that Broad Stand gets a lot of descent traffic but Botterill doesn't or we wold have the same issue wouldn't we.

I think only Sutty got what I was getting at, but that is probably because I assume Sutty had 'TICKED' Botterill Slab.

Have a think about what I am getting at.

Regards

Paul

In reply to Andy Say: Indeed they are two different cases. Both are similar in that they both are artefacts semi / permanently attached to the crag to which many object. We have seen with Broad Stand that the important thing is not to debate the issue (KeithW - 6th form debates) rather just to get the thing done.
My concern is that I am not `local' and that would appear to be one of the criteria required to validly remove the artefact.
Still, I don't want to debate this just to get the thing done.
Be prepared for a series of removals without consideration or consultation - just action.
Does Jeremy need to video all of the removals or was that only required for Broad Stand?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I've got a Focus. What's your point?...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


That you were not only misleading people but actively scaremongering. Via Ferratas are not the "thick end of the wedge" of any type of climbing bolting. Their origins have nothing to do with mountaineering.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: and another well done look forward to pics

In reply to Misha: soloed with out the hanngers in place so no nead for the bolts

In reply to TobyA:

To use what I think is one of your own terms you are being disingenuous here, we all know that they started in WW1 on the Italian front but since then they have been revived for somewhat different reasons... I don't think the one near the Tignes dam was built to keep the bosch away, for example!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

But what exactly does that have to do with bolts on climbs? I think most ski areas are eyesores and environmental blights, but they aren't the result of bolts - its simply a different issue.

Of course there shouldn't be any bolts on Broad Stand, but suggesting you get from that to Via Ferratas is just silly. There are bolts all over the UK and they haven't led to Via Ferratas. This conversation just gets so silly so quickly.

In reply to TobyA:

No, I don't agree, not as far as France is concerned anyway. The via ferrate are often seen as a logical easier version of rock climbing, (which is now systematically bolted with chains at each belay or lower off), go across the same cliffs often enough too. They are a logical extension of the bolting safety, non-elitist, every one has a right to the mountain experience pseudo-logic. Even on ukc there are fairly frequent posts wondering why there aren't any in Britain. If you look at one of the related hiker's threads someone suggests that a few fixed rungs could have been put on the climb that this thread is about.

It could just have been "irony", I suppose.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:
Jeez . . we don't progress much do we? I read the same Mr Angry letters in the very first Climber mag I ever picked up.

Has no-one else noticed that it's only (us) blokes who seem to get fighting mad about such 'ethics' issues? Right from the first posting this is (nearly) all opinionated testosterone driven tosh with, as far as I can tell not a single lady bothered enough to make a comment.

As my missus would say . . put your d_cks away guys it's embarrassing!

In reply to J1234:
To my mind your argument falls down here. If you oppose all bolting on natural rock on the basis that it's wrong to despoil natural rock, surely you have to be consistent across different countries? Or is your opposition more on ethical grounds? Ethics rely on consensus and change over time. As long as there's consensus, what's the problem with climbers bolting this or that?

After all, it's just rock - it doesn't exist for itself and doesn't serve any useful purpose (perhaps lichen habitat?). We give it purpose by climbing it and so we have the right to set down a few grounrules about how we are going to climb it. It's not like we're arguing about the ethics of hunting wild animals.

Of course some people will always have their own non-conformist opinions - some will oppose all bolting, as you do, others will argue in favour of retrobolting. After all, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The important point is that when it comes to action (be it bolting or debolting), people should stick to the consensus. If they don't like the consensus, they should try to change it - ethics do shift over time.

Let's not get too carried away. Anyway, I would go for plastic - more durable.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

This brings up an interesting aspect: what right do we climbers have to proscribe rungs and bolts on a scramble used by non-climbers? When it comes to 'proper' climbing it's up to the climbers to decide what's appropriate, but scrambles have a wider user group, so should we cater for everyone? Roads tend to have pavements to cater for pedestrians. I'm not arguing in favour of making mountains more accessible - just thinking around the issues. My answer would be that if you can't manage a scramble you should practise until you have the experience to do it. Interestingly, someone mentioned above that the consensus on one of the hiking forums was against the bolts. If so, perhaps there's a consensus here across the whole mountaineering community.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Johnny Foreigner dumps cables and ladders all over his mountains. It really is appalling. I'm sure no UKC poster has ever made use of either of these:
http://www.yosemitehikes.com/yosemite-valley/half-dome/cables-tips.htm
http://www.squamishgear.com/site/images/areainfo/ladder.html

In reply to TobyA:


Hmmmmmm, not sure. The bolts (plus rope) provided an equipped handrail for the timorous and for non-climbers, which is pretty much what Via Ferrata do too. It is quite common on the continent to see an isolated step on a mountain walk equipped like this.

In reply to Misha:
I agree and disagree here, ultimatley I am selfish so I climb bolts abroad because it fits in with my own little world, however in justification I would say that in the case of Kalymnos that it was a case of a people in crisis and climbers put food on the table, so Bolt or Starve? Bolt

Oh I could chat for hours on that one, a good walk in is needed for that conversation.



Yes, the wooden holds thing was just a ludicrous thing to contemplate, bit silly really. Or is it.
Cheers Beds

In reply to PeterR:

Have men been poking their dicks in the bolt holes then?

If not I really don't see what genitals have to do with this discussion.

In reply to Misha:


And boats have rudders to steer with, neither of which statements are particularly related to this subject.

It's true that in the Alps many footpaths have handrails, iron steps, cables etc, on the way up to huts and all over the place. The question is whether there could not be a difference of scale, and also of the function... aren't such footpaths the equivalents of access routes but in more rugged terrain rather than leisure access as is the case under discussion here/ It's not really possible to fix mechanical, if A > B the do C type rules to such matters... There is always a subjective side.

In reply to ab tat: Just an observation, but remove the peg and the tat and there would be no evidence that people had ever been there, bolt holes are forever a change to the rock.
keith

In reply to tobyfk:

I imagine it's only a matter of time before the American Health and Safety wallahs get the cables removed off Half Dome. Either that or they do a proper job and build a funicular.

In reply to tobyfk:

Sorry, have to say this is the most endaring image of climbing I've every heard, fantastic, please tell me you also have a pipe in your mouth.

In reply to Lord of Starkness: Use the cables to descend off half dome and found them more dangerous than the route up.

In reply to Clauso:

Its one thing to have a focus, but do you have the drive?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Good point about Alpine access routes. There is indeed a difference of purpose and nature - usually an access route is not done for its own sake, so it's easier to accept ironmongery that facilitates the passage. Of course it's a lot more prominent than bolts and pegs. Perhaps the ultimate example is the Aig du Midi cable car. That sure is pretty prominent. A different debate perhaps.

In reply to joolskilly:


A couple of tiny holes in a big eroded mountain are really not an issue. The hole that appears to exist in the soul of British mountaineering is a greater concern.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: I don't like to be contraversial for the sake of it, but don't consider for one moment the commercial exploitation of climbing may have contributed more than somewhat to that 'hole in the soul'?

Rigging crags must be seen as a natural next step for 'climbers' reared on artificial facilities.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:


Almost certainly.


Only the dumb ones. I wouldnt propose dismantling walls on these grounds.

I do like to think that the, ahem, good climbing walls are still staffed by climbers who can spread an awareness of the diversity and traditions of British climbing.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Climbing walls are the devils work... the source of all evil, or 93% at least.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I think they are more symptom than cause. Ultimately they are just structures.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:


That's what they want you to think, but they have a mind of their own... transfers takes place by the medium of a fine white powder and is definitive after even a few visits. As they are all linked you can't escape by going to different ones. Funnily the implants can lay dormant for years until reactivated. By then it's too late.

In reply to Wotcha:

I think there'd be some fairly pissed off Skye mountain guides if you did!!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

93% - wow! I'd have put it at 57%. I have some sympathy for your general point, though.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Absolutely

In reply to Steve Perry:

Good. I'd love to see their peevish faces when they found out.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


Do the CIA and the Turin Shroud feature in this conspiracy theory of yours?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I don't really know as I am aware of my limits and have not risked actually approaching such places. I expect they come from outer space or somewhere like that, Bolton maybe.

In reply to Removed User: The guides I've come across on Skye have been really nice guys, you obviously have a different opinion.

You're all a bunch of whoppers you whipple on about bolting 3 lower off bolts on a lakeland diff which is used as a descent route, a dodgy one at that and yet with 10 minutes walk there is a classic lakeland VS which has a lower off chain on the 2nd pitch.

Take a serious look at your selve for gods sake. I don't see any problem bolting a chop route descent, I also don't see a problem chopping the bolts. It takes the freeking biscuit when you are all shooting from the hip but fail to whinge about bolting classic routes near by.

Sort you lives out for gods sake.

In reply to PDL:
you whipple on about bolting 3 lower off bolts on a lakeland diff which is used as a descent route, a dodgy one at that and yet with 10 minutes walk there is a classic lakeland VS which has a lower off chain on the 2nd pitch.


Which route is that, then. And is it just a chain or is it physically bolted to the rock?

'Whipple'? Thats'a new one - thank you for that.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

They could well have been placed by fellrunner/climbers attempting the BG round. There seems to have been loads of folks having a crack at it this year and broad stand is seen as a big obstacle by many. I can't imagine people attempting it would carry nuts and climbing gear. Many try and get their climbing friends to setup ropes for the section. Possibly somebody has put them in place so they don't have to worry about it as much?

Could be a reason for the location/timing.

In reply to Removed User: I'd love to see the client's faces more though

In reply to Mr Ed:

There is another thread about the (now thankfully ex) bolts on BS with links to the forums on the FRA site - http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showthread.php?t=7801

The runners are even less willing to see BS bolted than climbers.

There have been a couple of relays around the BG recently and it *may* have been someone connected with those. Other than that, unless someone comes forward to say that they did it, the perpetrator(s) shall remain "person/persons unknown"

ALC

In reply to Andy Say:


The chain is around a huge block at the left hand edge of the ledge on the top of the second pitch of Botteril's Slab. It is a chain similar to the one on Gimmer and it is not bolted to the rock.

Glad the bolts have gone.

In reply to The Bad Cough:

After the main pitch? Does a single ab get you to the ground from there?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I could not tell you as we completed the route. My guess would be yes on 50m half ropes but tie a knot in the end just in case.

In reply to Andy Say:

Andy, it comes from Whipple's disease that infects the bowel causing Diarrhea and there seems to have been a lot of Whippling on this thread from people who should know better. Whopper is a Burger King whopper - all meat and no brains.

...and as for bolting broad stand, it's a diff descent route FFS. It's like a bloke walking round with a hole in his shoe which is letting in water and he doesn't complain about it until someone tells him.