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whats your view on the SPA qualification??
is it a) a worthwhile course that you could make a living or wage from?
b) something you could make a few extra quid at w/ends or evenings?
c) a pointless & meaningless course?
cheers, davey.
is it a) a worthwhile course that you could make a living or wage from?
b) something you could make a few extra quid at w/ends or evenings?
c) a pointless & meaningless course?
cheers, davey.
In reply to davey_briggs: surely it isnt pointless and meaningless. I think everyone, regardless of how long they have climbed, would benefit from a bit of proffessional advice. no? I want to do mine this winter.
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In reply to Sam1991: what i mean, is do you think you could do either a) or b) from it? its supposed to be a profesional qualification that you can use to earn money by taking groups out to crags etc..but, do you think its realistic in its aims?? could you make a living from it?
In reply to davey_briggs: worthwhile because it earns me a living en route to my mia. the problem is these days too many incompeten people get passed.
In reply to davey_briggs:
Yes. But not a good one! There are lots of folk out there with the SPA and wages are correspondingly low.
> could you make a living from it?
Yes. But not a good one! There are lots of folk out there with the SPA and wages are correspondingly low.
In reply to davey_briggs:
I make quite a good living with it, but i do have some other qualifacations, so i guess the option would be B. I definetly dont think its pointless, it may need a little changing soon to keep upto date with current changes in the industry.
I make quite a good living with it, but i do have some other qualifacations, so i guess the option would be B. I definetly dont think its pointless, it may need a little changing soon to keep upto date with current changes in the industry.
In reply to davey_briggs: It is a worthwhile course, I got a lot out of it as I was fortunate enough to spend some time with some really good trainers and assessors. I've been climbing over 15 years, and I picked up some useful stuff.
If you are a competent climber then it isn't too hard to meet the criteria and pass the course, after all you only need to be solid at leading severe.
As far as making a living from it, well it depends on how meagre an existence you are prepared for
I earn a living from web contracting work, and the SPA stuff is an extra income but it isn't very well paid work. Especially considering the seasonality, unless you get work at climbing walls through the winter.
I have around 10 friends who instruct, and most say that it is a tough area to make a living from. Some of them do odd jobs to earn extra income or have gone into or are looking at teaching/police/fire service.
You really need to get to MIA and beyond before you start making a decent income, although you will find the odd person who land on their feet.
If you are a competent climber then it isn't too hard to meet the criteria and pass the course, after all you only need to be solid at leading severe.
As far as making a living from it, well it depends on how meagre an existence you are prepared for
I earn a living from web contracting work, and the SPA stuff is an extra income but it isn't very well paid work. Especially considering the seasonality, unless you get work at climbing walls through the winter.
I have around 10 friends who instruct, and most say that it is a tough area to make a living from. Some of them do odd jobs to earn extra income or have gone into or are looking at teaching/police/fire service.
You really need to get to MIA and beyond before you start making a decent income, although you will find the odd person who land on their feet.
In reply to davey_briggs:
I hold a number of NGB awards and SPA seems to bring in the least income BUT that is probably because I prefer to go Mountain Biking or Canoeing so I push that work more.
I hold a number of NGB awards and SPA seems to bring in the least income BUT that is probably because I prefer to go Mountain Biking or Canoeing so I push that work more.
In reply to smudge: i`ve passed the course, (well deferred, until i do my first aid course)just wondering if its worth forking out for a first aid course & insurance (prob, thick end of £400)
money pretty tight at the mo, due to reccesion (bricklayer)
money pretty tight at the mo, due to reccesion (bricklayer)
In reply to davey_briggs:
a) If you got a full time job from it, then obviously yes, but surely better to go for higher qualifications.
b) On it's own you probably could make a few quid, but remember that if a hobby/pastime becomes a job, then it takes away some of the pleasure, and also a good chunk of the time for said pastime/hobby.
c) There are, or at least appear to be, a number of incompetents with said qualification. These persons do cause annoyance to the wider climbing population, and unfortunately the level at which the course is pitched probably means that this will always be so. Consequently I have a low opinion of it (and many of it's holders). Sadly these same persons point out their qualification, and others lack of same, and claim superior capability on this basis. They fail to notice that most climbers can't be bothered to get pieces of paper, because we're too busy getting out there and doing it.
As to sam1991, I myself, and many people I climb with, have knowledge and experience way in excess of that required for the SPA, except for dealing with the "crowd control" aspect. In this I am certain we are not alone. When you get more experience (I've been climbing since 1974) then you will understand.
a) If you got a full time job from it, then obviously yes, but surely better to go for higher qualifications.
b) On it's own you probably could make a few quid, but remember that if a hobby/pastime becomes a job, then it takes away some of the pleasure, and also a good chunk of the time for said pastime/hobby.
c) There are, or at least appear to be, a number of incompetents with said qualification. These persons do cause annoyance to the wider climbing population, and unfortunately the level at which the course is pitched probably means that this will always be so. Consequently I have a low opinion of it (and many of it's holders). Sadly these same persons point out their qualification, and others lack of same, and claim superior capability on this basis. They fail to notice that most climbers can't be bothered to get pieces of paper, because we're too busy getting out there and doing it.
As to sam1991, I myself, and many people I climb with, have knowledge and experience way in excess of that required for the SPA, except for dealing with the "crowd control" aspect. In this I am certain we are not alone. When you get more experience (I've been climbing since 1974) then you will understand.
In reply to davey_briggs:
no its not.
it was never meant to be professional or a qualification.
as in, it doesn't qualify you to 'do' anything. its also not meant to lead into the professional end of the market.
these 'awards' are simply, 'awards'. An award to say, "hasnt he done well...?"
nothing more. the point is that insurance and industry look on these awards and say, well if they have met this standard, they must be pretty good. you dont need them to do anything, just you wont be insurabble without them.
good evening all.
> (In reply to Sam1991) what i mean, is do you think you could do either a) or b) from it? its supposed to be a profesional qualification that you can use to earn money by taking groups out to crags etc..but, do you think its realistic in its aims?? could you make a living from it?
no its not.
it was never meant to be professional or a qualification.
as in, it doesn't qualify you to 'do' anything. its also not meant to lead into the professional end of the market.
these 'awards' are simply, 'awards'. An award to say, "hasnt he done well...?"
nothing more. the point is that insurance and industry look on these awards and say, well if they have met this standard, they must be pretty good. you dont need them to do anything, just you wont be insurabble without them.
good evening all.
In reply to Duane: thats actually my view!!
In reply to jezb1:
So who's passing all these incompetent people, and why?
> the problem is these days too many incompeten people get passed.
So who's passing all these incompetent people, and why?
In reply to fred99:
I think that you are very true in saying that there are alot of people gaining this qualifacation when they dont deserve it, whren i did my spa i didnt think any of the others should pass as they didnt seem to be able to climb well or have any idea of working with groups, i think you really want to work with people to understand the enjoyment of climbing rather than as a friend puts it, just work for a climbing factory where each client gets 1 abseil then 2 climbs then changes.
As for the op i think you could get a better price for insurance and the 1st aid can be used again for other things. And go freelance you will earn loads more.
I think that you are very true in saying that there are alot of people gaining this qualifacation when they dont deserve it, whren i did my spa i didnt think any of the others should pass as they didnt seem to be able to climb well or have any idea of working with groups, i think you really want to work with people to understand the enjoyment of climbing rather than as a friend puts it, just work for a climbing factory where each client gets 1 abseil then 2 climbs then changes.
As for the op i think you could get a better price for insurance and the 1st aid can be used again for other things. And go freelance you will earn loads more.
In reply to fred99:
I have seen some prime examples on these forums, some even using 'spa' as part of their username.
They might be more accurate if they added a 'z'.
> c) There are, or at least appear to be, a number of incompetents with said qualification. These persons do cause annoyance to the wider climbing population, Sadly these same persons point out their qualification, and others lack of same, and claim superior capability on this basis.
I have seen some prime examples on these forums, some even using 'spa' as part of their username.
They might be more accurate if they added a 'z'.
In reply to davey_briggs: Def needs an update. Quite why they brought in a whole new climbing wall qualification rather than just including that aspect in a revised SPA syllabus is beyond my meagre intellectual powers
In reply to the real dr gav:
Mind they still wouldn't be as offensive as those who thoughtlessly throw around insults based on the derogatory slang use of the word 'spastic', would they?
> (In reply to fred99)
>
> [...]
>
> I have seen some prime examples on these forums, some even using 'spa' as part of their username.
>
> They might be more accurate if they added a 'z'.
>
> [...]
>
> I have seen some prime examples on these forums, some even using 'spa' as part of their username.
>
> They might be more accurate if they added a 'z'.
Mind they still wouldn't be as offensive as those who thoughtlessly throw around insults based on the derogatory slang use of the word 'spastic', would they?
In reply to Duane:
Helps if you want to work with kids from AALA's point of view.
> nothing more. the point is that insurance and industry look on these awards and say, well if they have met this standard, they must be pretty good. you dont need them to do anything, just you wont be insurabble without them.
> good evening all.
> good evening all.
Helps if you want to work with kids from AALA's point of view.
In reply to davey_briggs:
You'll struggle to make a living from it alone. Combided with other skills its a usefull ticket.
Far from pointless and meaningless though if you do want to work with groups.
> whats your view on the SPA qualification??
> is it a) a worthwhile course that you could make a living or wage from?
> b) something you could make a few extra quid at w/ends or evenings?
> c) a pointless & meaningless course?
> is it a) a worthwhile course that you could make a living or wage from?
> b) something you could make a few extra quid at w/ends or evenings?
> c) a pointless & meaningless course?
You'll struggle to make a living from it alone. Combided with other skills its a usefull ticket.
Far from pointless and meaningless though if you do want to work with groups.
In reply to Duncan_S:
> (In reply to davey_briggs)
>
> [...]
>
> You'll struggle to make a living from it alone. Combided with other skills its a usefull ticket.
>
yep most outdoor instructors I've met have - SPA , ml(s), BCU L2/3, BCA local cave & mine leader, etc. That's the bottom of the ladder! >
> [...]
>
> You'll struggle to make a living from it alone. Combided with other skills its a usefull ticket.
>
In reply to Neil Kazimierz Sheridan:
Indeed, lots of ticket chasing to be done in the industry, but its a good step in the door in many places.
Indeed, lots of ticket chasing to be done in the industry, but its a good step in the door in many places.
In reply to davey_briggs: Mate, I sympathise with the work situation. Life is really tough for many people at the mo.
My first aid course cost me £110, and insurance around £175. Drop me an email if you need details on where to get this.
I'd look at who could employ you locally and call them and see if there is any freelance work available, then perhaps make a decision. On the other hand if you do have time on your hands, then it may be worth getting the insurance and going for it.
Just remember that if you work with kids without there parents present, and your not working for a center, then you will need to get an AALA license as well.
The advice about getting more qualifications is a good one. The trouble is I think that the investment is a long term one, and the payback (financially speaking) is not great.. unless you get some of the higher paid work, such as SPA training/assess, guiding clients, ML training/assess etc. To get to this point you need to put years of hard graft and have spent a lot on the quals and also the travel to get the log book xp.
I do it because I am a climber, I live and breathe it! I particularly love taking kids out climbing and hopefully inspire them to get into climbing or the outdoors.
To answer some of the other posts...
Unfortunately there are quite a few numpties who have an SPA. I personally think that there should be another level between SPA and MIA... SPA most essentially means that you can safely set up top/bottom ropes and abseils, in theory be able to manage a group (though this is not really properly assessed) and teach good belaying practise. (ok there is a bit more to it before I get flamed).
However, there is no real emphasis on coaching good climbing movement, injury avoidance etc. Also, I think that many climbers who get the award can only just scrape up severe. You really need to be climbing at a better standard than this to be really effective in teaching efficient movement and good technique.
The CWA has gone some way in filling this gap, but you will have to fork out for another course if you want the qualification.
My first aid course cost me £110, and insurance around £175. Drop me an email if you need details on where to get this.
I'd look at who could employ you locally and call them and see if there is any freelance work available, then perhaps make a decision. On the other hand if you do have time on your hands, then it may be worth getting the insurance and going for it.
Just remember that if you work with kids without there parents present, and your not working for a center, then you will need to get an AALA license as well.
The advice about getting more qualifications is a good one. The trouble is I think that the investment is a long term one, and the payback (financially speaking) is not great.. unless you get some of the higher paid work, such as SPA training/assess, guiding clients, ML training/assess etc. To get to this point you need to put years of hard graft and have spent a lot on the quals and also the travel to get the log book xp.
I do it because I am a climber, I live and breathe it! I particularly love taking kids out climbing and hopefully inspire them to get into climbing or the outdoors.
To answer some of the other posts...
Unfortunately there are quite a few numpties who have an SPA. I personally think that there should be another level between SPA and MIA... SPA most essentially means that you can safely set up top/bottom ropes and abseils, in theory be able to manage a group (though this is not really properly assessed) and teach good belaying practise. (ok there is a bit more to it before I get flamed).
However, there is no real emphasis on coaching good climbing movement, injury avoidance etc. Also, I think that many climbers who get the award can only just scrape up severe. You really need to be climbing at a better standard than this to be really effective in teaching efficient movement and good technique.
The CWA has gone some way in filling this gap, but you will have to fork out for another course if you want the qualification.
In reply to smudge:
Fair point and I could the benerfit of adding more to the SPA, but what would we gain from another quallie? If you were to set one up, what would you add to it other then coaching?
> Unfortunately there are quite a few numpties who have an SPA. I personally think that there should be another level between SPA and MIA... SPA most essentially means that you can safely set up top/bottom ropes and abseils, in theory be able to manage a group (though this is not really properly assessed) and teach good belaying practise. (ok there is a bit more to it before I get flamed).
>
> However, there is no real emphasis on coaching good climbing movement, injury avoidance etc. Also, I think that many climbers who get the award can only just scrape up severe. You really need to be climbing at a better standard than this to be really effective in teaching efficient movement and good technique.
>
> However, there is no real emphasis on coaching good climbing movement, injury avoidance etc. Also, I think that many climbers who get the award can only just scrape up severe. You really need to be climbing at a better standard than this to be really effective in teaching efficient movement and good technique.
Fair point and I could the benerfit of adding more to the SPA, but what would we gain from another quallie? If you were to set one up, what would you add to it other then coaching?
In reply to jezb1: that is spot on, might've only gone climbing again with half of those that passed at my assessment... pretty scary actually...
In reply to sleeplessjb: My experience was a lot more positive, I think it was down to my instructors/assessors: Steve Howe, Dave Hollinger, Tim Neill, Dave Rudkin, Berewyn Evans, to name some. None of them were a push over. In some cases they were very tough on people when it was needed. They were all 'climbers climbers' and taught beyond the syllabus in order to help you get the most out of the course. Passing actually meant something to me because they were such good instructors.
Unfortunately, I have heard some horror stories of people fabricating log books in order to get the minimum number of climbs etc This just sucks, especially when the requirement is just so low. If you are any where near competent you can log enough climbs in a few days... Any decent assessor should be able to see through this.
I personally would like to see the min leading requirement to be higher, like VS... although I suppose this could have an impact on voluntary organisations like the Scouts. Which is why a qualification between SPA and MIA could be a good idea.
Unfortunately, I have heard some horror stories of people fabricating log books in order to get the minimum number of climbs etc This just sucks, especially when the requirement is just so low. If you are any where near competent you can log enough climbs in a few days... Any decent assessor should be able to see through this.
I personally would like to see the min leading requirement to be higher, like VS... although I suppose this could have an impact on voluntary organisations like the Scouts. Which is why a qualification between SPA and MIA could be a good idea.
In reply to Duncan_S: There are many people, like myself, that do the vast majority of their work on single pitch crags. I live and work in the Peak, so the crags I use fall into the remit of the SPA.
In order to teach leading you need MIA, that means going through ML (Summer) before going onto MIA.
I've done my ML (Summer) training, and I'm not moaning, because it is a great course. But, I've got to spend a lot of time and money in order to get up to MIA. My climbing is not too far off the mark as far as MIA is concerned. I've been climbing for nearly 20 years, and been fortunate enough to have some great climbers/mountaineers pass on their experience to me for free. I owe them a lot.
I think that in many ways in order to get to MIA, it weeds out the numpties. That way you only get competent climbers teaching leading.
However, if there was a similar course for single pitch venues, it would be a lot more accessible (financially and timewise) for many that want to teach leading on Single Pitch venues only.
I've been teaching people to lead climb for years, but only in clubs/with mates. But that doesn't allow you to get insurance to do it professionally.
The coaching element is really lacking from the SPA, and this is something that if done properly is not just learnt over a couple of sessions.
In order to teach leading you need MIA, that means going through ML (Summer) before going onto MIA.
I've done my ML (Summer) training, and I'm not moaning, because it is a great course. But, I've got to spend a lot of time and money in order to get up to MIA. My climbing is not too far off the mark as far as MIA is concerned. I've been climbing for nearly 20 years, and been fortunate enough to have some great climbers/mountaineers pass on their experience to me for free. I owe them a lot.
I think that in many ways in order to get to MIA, it weeds out the numpties. That way you only get competent climbers teaching leading.
However, if there was a similar course for single pitch venues, it would be a lot more accessible (financially and timewise) for many that want to teach leading on Single Pitch venues only.
I've been teaching people to lead climb for years, but only in clubs/with mates. But that doesn't allow you to get insurance to do it professionally.
The coaching element is really lacking from the SPA, and this is something that if done properly is not just learnt over a couple of sessions.
In reply to smudge:
All good points. I can see the arguement for an award to teach leading in single pitch venues, but as you say by the MIA does weed out numpties.
I'm not sure about the coaching side, like you I've done my SPA and ML training and I've also been through the old L2 BCU awards. There is more emphis on coaching in paddling, but again I agree its not something that can be taught in a few sessions.I've seen some awfull sessions run by newly qualified L2 which follow a very rigid path they were taught on training. It's so dull to watch (teaching vs coaching?).
The danger of adding more coaching to the SPA is ending up with the mess that the BCU have ended up with the new awards. The course takes to long and long term paddler development doesn't meet the needs of centres who run splash and dash sessions. As a result employeers are starting to run inhouse assesments, which doens't help the instructors or the BCU. I think the best way to learn coaching is working alongside experiance coaches, having time to develop your own style and getting out there and doing it for yourself so you don't stop learning.
All good points. I can see the arguement for an award to teach leading in single pitch venues, but as you say by the MIA does weed out numpties.
I'm not sure about the coaching side, like you I've done my SPA and ML training and I've also been through the old L2 BCU awards. There is more emphis on coaching in paddling, but again I agree its not something that can be taught in a few sessions.I've seen some awfull sessions run by newly qualified L2 which follow a very rigid path they were taught on training. It's so dull to watch (teaching vs coaching?).
The danger of adding more coaching to the SPA is ending up with the mess that the BCU have ended up with the new awards. The course takes to long and long term paddler development doesn't meet the needs of centres who run splash and dash sessions. As a result employeers are starting to run inhouse assesments, which doens't help the instructors or the BCU. I think the best way to learn coaching is working alongside experiance coaches, having time to develop your own style and getting out there and doing it for yourself so you don't stop learning.
In reply to davey_briggs: Earlier I said that incompetent people were getting passed and I do think this is a real problem. Someone asked who is passing these people and thats a very good question.
I dont know the answer. I do know of a provider who is happy to do the training though when people don't have the necessary number of leads (which is way too low anyway imo).
These are the people that give the rest of us a bad name. Rightly or wrongly a lot of people doing their SPA aren't climbers and I don't like that fact. But I can't be too hypocritacal 'cos I have my basic paddling stuff but hardly ever paddle, I did it solely for work reasons.
I think it could be a good idea to have an award between MIA & SPA just because there is such a huge gap between the two. I hope to start working towards my MIA after I (hopefully) pass my ML in September but its a very expensive and time consuming process - rightly so I think.
I hope SPA doesn't go the way of BCU / UKCC.
I dont know the answer. I do know of a provider who is happy to do the training though when people don't have the necessary number of leads (which is way too low anyway imo).
These are the people that give the rest of us a bad name. Rightly or wrongly a lot of people doing their SPA aren't climbers and I don't like that fact. But I can't be too hypocritacal 'cos I have my basic paddling stuff but hardly ever paddle, I did it solely for work reasons.
I think it could be a good idea to have an award between MIA & SPA just because there is such a huge gap between the two. I hope to start working towards my MIA after I (hopefully) pass my ML in September but its a very expensive and time consuming process - rightly so I think.
I hope SPA doesn't go the way of BCU / UKCC.
In reply to Duncan_S:
Couldn't agree more!
> (In reply to smudge)
> I think the best way to learn coaching is working alongside experiance coaches, having time to develop your own style and getting out there and doing it for yourself so you don't stop learning.
> I think the best way to learn coaching is working alongside experiance coaches, having time to develop your own style and getting out there and doing it for yourself so you don't stop learning.
Couldn't agree more!
In reply to Duncan_S:
The SPA course is usually shoehorned into a weekend (though some providers do run the course over three days and providers and candidates on those courses love the opportunity to do more and take more time). This makes it reasonably cost effective in terms of cash and time invested. If we added more to the SPA syllabus it becomes longer and more costly; both to train and to assess.
One option that quite a few current SPA holders have taken is to go for the CWA to give them just that extra element of skill - bear in mind that there's a whole range of CPD and additionality that you can get to make you a 'better' SPA holder.
My current 'thing' is to look at the syllabus of the SPA and undertake a revision that acknowledges that sport routes exist in the UK!
> The danger of adding more coaching to the SPA is ending up with the mess that the BCU have ended up with the new awards. The course takes to long and long term paddler development doesn't meet the needs of centres who run splash and dash sessions.
The SPA course is usually shoehorned into a weekend (though some providers do run the course over three days and providers and candidates on those courses love the opportunity to do more and take more time). This makes it reasonably cost effective in terms of cash and time invested. If we added more to the SPA syllabus it becomes longer and more costly; both to train and to assess.
One option that quite a few current SPA holders have taken is to go for the CWA to give them just that extra element of skill - bear in mind that there's a whole range of CPD and additionality that you can get to make you a 'better' SPA holder.
My current 'thing' is to look at the syllabus of the SPA and undertake a revision that acknowledges that sport routes exist in the UK!
In reply to jezb1:
That's honest - and does reflect the reality for many working in the outdoors!
> These are the people that give the rest of us a bad name. Rightly or wrongly a lot of people doing their SPA aren't climbers and I don't like that fact. But I can't be too hypocritacal 'cos I have my basic paddling stuff but hardly ever paddle, I did it solely for work reasons.
>
> I hope SPA doesn't go the way of BCU / UKCC.
>
> I hope SPA doesn't go the way of BCU / UKCC.
That's honest - and does reflect the reality for many working in the outdoors!
In reply to Andy Say:
The CWA sounds an intresting course, but I just don't do enough work inside to justify it. How would sport climbs fit into the SPA syllabus? Your not allowed to teach leading, would you make an exception for sport routes? I always thought having sport and multipitch in the logbook was a good thing anyhow as showes your a more "rounded" climber.
The CWA sounds an intresting course, but I just don't do enough work inside to justify it. How would sport climbs fit into the SPA syllabus? Your not allowed to teach leading, would you make an exception for sport routes? I always thought having sport and multipitch in the logbook was a good thing anyhow as showes your a more "rounded" climber.
In reply to jezb1:
Fair enough and the worst SPA's I've seen don't climb, but I've seen some great sessions of non climbers. Funnily enough I only got properly into kayaking last year, despite holding my L2 for a while...now I just need to get excited about going under ground.
> These are the people that give the rest of us a bad name. Rightly or wrongly a lot of people doing their SPA aren't climbers and I don't like that fact. But I can't be too hypocritacal 'cos I have my basic paddling stuff but hardly ever paddle, I did it solely for work reasons.
Fair enough and the worst SPA's I've seen don't climb, but I've seen some great sessions of non climbers. Funnily enough I only got properly into kayaking last year, despite holding my L2 for a while...now I just need to get excited about going under ground.
In reply to jezb1:
Adding another award between the two would actually make it more expensive but I'd still do it because I do think that the gap between the two is massive. I don't mind putting the time or money in.
It's a shame that the industry is not better paid in recognition of the time + cost that goes in to get qualified, but that's life eh. Many of the instructors at the Brenin advise getting hitched to someone who has a good job!
The MIA is great, but I actually don't need to have ML standard nav or the ability to orgnise expeds or wildcamp when you are only ever 20 minutes from a road (if you can walk on a bearing) from most places in the Peak.
I'm still doing my ML and I think it is great course, better than the SPA in my opinion. It is more rounded.
I suppose when I get my MIA, I'll join the only let MIA's teaching leading camp. It keeps more competition out!
> (In reply to davey_briggs)
> I think it could be a good idea to have an award between MIA & SPA just because there is such a huge gap between the two. I hope to start working towards my MIA after I (hopefully) pass my ML in September but its a very expensive and time consuming process - rightly so I think.
>
>
Adding another award between the two would actually make it more expensive but I'd still do it because I do think that the gap between the two is massive. I don't mind putting the time or money in.
It's a shame that the industry is not better paid in recognition of the time + cost that goes in to get qualified, but that's life eh. Many of the instructors at the Brenin advise getting hitched to someone who has a good job!
The MIA is great, but I actually don't need to have ML standard nav or the ability to orgnise expeds or wildcamp when you are only ever 20 minutes from a road (if you can walk on a bearing) from most places in the Peak.
I'm still doing my ML and I think it is great course, better than the SPA in my opinion. It is more rounded.
I suppose when I get my MIA, I'll join the only let MIA's teaching leading camp. It keeps more competition out!
In reply to smudge:
We have a plan! A blueprint for a parallel set of coaching 'modules' has been developed. A lot of the boxes in the structure chart are blank at the moment but the basic premise is that the current awards from CWA to MIC will not be monkeyed around with but will be seen, as currently, as 'statements of competence' to work, and manage risk, in certain environements; ranging from climbing walls to winter routes. We have probably moved well away from trying to get the existing awards 'UKCC'ed'.
Alongside these recognised awards we will develop a set of coaching standards so that ultimately we could have a situations whereby a CWA holder could be a top-level coach working with the national comp. team and an MIC could have done some level 2 coaching to make his teaching of crampon skills a little better! If its productive these new modules might seek UKCC endorsement.
It's probably true to say that there is a bit of opposition to this possible development from folks that are unsure about whether 'coaching' has a part to play in 'mountaineering' and there is a little muddying of the water with suspicions that this might all be linked to attempts to get climbing as an olympic sport. So don't hold your breath!
>
> The coaching element is really lacking from the SPA, and this is something that if done properly is not just learnt over a couple of sessions.
> The coaching element is really lacking from the SPA, and this is something that if done properly is not just learnt over a couple of sessions.
We have a plan! A blueprint for a parallel set of coaching 'modules' has been developed. A lot of the boxes in the structure chart are blank at the moment but the basic premise is that the current awards from CWA to MIC will not be monkeyed around with but will be seen, as currently, as 'statements of competence' to work, and manage risk, in certain environements; ranging from climbing walls to winter routes. We have probably moved well away from trying to get the existing awards 'UKCC'ed'.
Alongside these recognised awards we will develop a set of coaching standards so that ultimately we could have a situations whereby a CWA holder could be a top-level coach working with the national comp. team and an MIC could have done some level 2 coaching to make his teaching of crampon skills a little better! If its productive these new modules might seek UKCC endorsement.
It's probably true to say that there is a bit of opposition to this possible development from folks that are unsure about whether 'coaching' has a part to play in 'mountaineering' and there is a little muddying of the water with suspicions that this might all be linked to attempts to get climbing as an olympic sport. So don't hold your breath!
In reply to Duncan_S:
Increasingly SPA holders will be working at places like Horseshoe and Portland; running a course that doesn't really acknowledge bolts and doesn't deal with rigging lower-offs etc might be short changing those award holders?
Increasingly SPA holders will be working at places like Horseshoe and Portland; running a course that doesn't really acknowledge bolts and doesn't deal with rigging lower-offs etc might be short changing those award holders?
In reply to smudge:
The problem then comes down to those seeking to make a living stepping on those doing it voluntarily for the love of the sport.
Maybe we'd be better off if we were all volunteers and no-one profited from helping others into our great sport
> (In reply to jezb1)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Adding another award between the two would actually make it more expensive but I'd still do it because I do think that the gap between the two is massive. I don't mind putting the time or money in.
>
> It's a shame that the industry is not better paid in recognition of the time + cost that goes in to get qualified, but that's life eh. Many of the instructors at the Brenin advise getting hitched to someone who has a good job!
>
> The MIA is great, but I actually don't need to have ML standard nav or the ability to orgnise expeds or wildcamp when you are only ever 20 minutes from a road (if you can walk on a bearing) from most places in the Peak.
>
> I'm still doing my ML and I think it is great course, better than the SPA in my opinion. It is more rounded.
>
> I suppose when I get my MIA, I'll join the only let MIA's teaching leading camp. It keeps more competition out!
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Adding another award between the two would actually make it more expensive but I'd still do it because I do think that the gap between the two is massive. I don't mind putting the time or money in.
>
> It's a shame that the industry is not better paid in recognition of the time + cost that goes in to get qualified, but that's life eh. Many of the instructors at the Brenin advise getting hitched to someone who has a good job!
>
> The MIA is great, but I actually don't need to have ML standard nav or the ability to orgnise expeds or wildcamp when you are only ever 20 minutes from a road (if you can walk on a bearing) from most places in the Peak.
>
> I'm still doing my ML and I think it is great course, better than the SPA in my opinion. It is more rounded.
>
> I suppose when I get my MIA, I'll join the only let MIA's teaching leading camp. It keeps more competition out!
The problem then comes down to those seeking to make a living stepping on those doing it voluntarily for the love of the sport.
Maybe we'd be better off if we were all volunteers and no-one profited from helping others into our great sport
In reply to davey_briggs:
Hi there
Im an SPA & CWA provider and have been following this thread with interest.
Firstly, I feel that CPD (continueing professional development) and currency of logbook (which lets admit it - can be fabricated by the unscrupulous)are both incredibly important facets to look at when employing an award holder.
After all - when assessing - we only get a "snapshot" of what someones competency is on a given 2 days. Once someone gains the award - theoretically - they may not climb or work with groups for a couple of years and are bound to get rusty.
Regarding the coaching elements. There is already a lot to squeeze in on the 20hours of the SPA - a lot concerned with safety (which is paramount) and I can only touch on coaching and point people in the right directions to discover more in their own time (BMC Fundamentals etc).
Something I am really enjoying and finding refreshing about the CWA is the amount of time available to explore coaching movement, looking at NLP, playing wall games etc.
I will own up and say that some who come on training are coming along with the absolute minimum of experience. If I am concerned about them, I would refer them to MLTE office for further clarification.
In the real world there is a pressure on us (both financially and to make the course quorate from MLTE perspective)to make sure all course places are filled - so if I have 3 reasonably experienced climbers booked and looking forward to a course and I need one more person to make the course viable and a person with the absolute minimum experience applies - what do I do - turn them away and cancel the course or cater for them and allow the course to run. As long as they dont hold the course back for the other candidates - it shouldnt be a real problem.
AND it is the assessment course where weak candidates should be deferred and encouraged to gain more experience.
Talking of assessments (and this is a gross generalisation) over the years I would say this is my average (and I dont know what the MLTE figures are for this) Out of an assessment with 4 candidates I would expect 1-1.5 strong pass, 1.5-2 "satisfactory" passes and maybe 1 defferal (usually on groupwork (abseil)or thin logbook experience).
Regarding climbing grades and instructor suitability - my view is that it is pretty irrelevent.
I have assessed candidates who can climb at very high technical grades, but lack a variety of experience, both on rock and life experience, who wouldnt make particularly inspiring instructors.
I have also had folk in their 70's with years of experience and a passion and commitment to passing their skills and love of the mountains and crags on to youngsters who would be denigrated as "bumblies" & "punters" (a word I detest) here on these forums.
One guy who came to me for training and assessment years ago was possibly one of the safest, impeccable, trustworthy, knowledgeable SPA style instructors I have ever met and yet I had to defer him as his logbook climbs were so thin. As far as I know he has never complted the award because of this lack of personal climbing - but IMHO he would still have made a good instructor.
One place I feel where the award falls dowen is that it asks people doing the SPA to log routes rather than pitches. Therefore people who are time poor tend to come to assessment having completed the minimum number of routes in their local (Stake at top belay)Lancs quarry, where if it had been pitches, they could have notched up the multipitches on the slabs, Gogarth etc leading to being a much more rounded and experienced climber and potential instructor.
Gonna stop typing now and do some real work sending out all those application forms for next SPAs and CWAs
Hi there
Im an SPA & CWA provider and have been following this thread with interest.
Firstly, I feel that CPD (continueing professional development) and currency of logbook (which lets admit it - can be fabricated by the unscrupulous)are both incredibly important facets to look at when employing an award holder.
After all - when assessing - we only get a "snapshot" of what someones competency is on a given 2 days. Once someone gains the award - theoretically - they may not climb or work with groups for a couple of years and are bound to get rusty.
Regarding the coaching elements. There is already a lot to squeeze in on the 20hours of the SPA - a lot concerned with safety (which is paramount) and I can only touch on coaching and point people in the right directions to discover more in their own time (BMC Fundamentals etc).
Something I am really enjoying and finding refreshing about the CWA is the amount of time available to explore coaching movement, looking at NLP, playing wall games etc.
I will own up and say that some who come on training are coming along with the absolute minimum of experience. If I am concerned about them, I would refer them to MLTE office for further clarification.
In the real world there is a pressure on us (both financially and to make the course quorate from MLTE perspective)to make sure all course places are filled - so if I have 3 reasonably experienced climbers booked and looking forward to a course and I need one more person to make the course viable and a person with the absolute minimum experience applies - what do I do - turn them away and cancel the course or cater for them and allow the course to run. As long as they dont hold the course back for the other candidates - it shouldnt be a real problem.
AND it is the assessment course where weak candidates should be deferred and encouraged to gain more experience.
Talking of assessments (and this is a gross generalisation) over the years I would say this is my average (and I dont know what the MLTE figures are for this) Out of an assessment with 4 candidates I would expect 1-1.5 strong pass, 1.5-2 "satisfactory" passes and maybe 1 defferal (usually on groupwork (abseil)or thin logbook experience).
Regarding climbing grades and instructor suitability - my view is that it is pretty irrelevent.
I have assessed candidates who can climb at very high technical grades, but lack a variety of experience, both on rock and life experience, who wouldnt make particularly inspiring instructors.
I have also had folk in their 70's with years of experience and a passion and commitment to passing their skills and love of the mountains and crags on to youngsters who would be denigrated as "bumblies" & "punters" (a word I detest) here on these forums.
One guy who came to me for training and assessment years ago was possibly one of the safest, impeccable, trustworthy, knowledgeable SPA style instructors I have ever met and yet I had to defer him as his logbook climbs were so thin. As far as I know he has never complted the award because of this lack of personal climbing - but IMHO he would still have made a good instructor.
One place I feel where the award falls dowen is that it asks people doing the SPA to log routes rather than pitches. Therefore people who are time poor tend to come to assessment having completed the minimum number of routes in their local (Stake at top belay)Lancs quarry, where if it had been pitches, they could have notched up the multipitches on the slabs, Gogarth etc leading to being a much more rounded and experienced climber and potential instructor.
Gonna stop typing now and do some real work sending out all those application forms for next SPAs and CWAs
In reply to Andy Say: Hi Andy, that sounds really good stuff. I've benefited loads from a bit of coaching, and some of the kids I take out have improved loads. Can't see why that can be a bad thing.
As far as climbing becoming an olympic sport is concerned, I'm personally not too fussed either way regarding if some people treat it like a sport or not, that's up to them. Of course, the impact it may have on our crags is a different matter though, not sure where I stand on this yet tbh.
As far as climbing becoming an olympic sport is concerned, I'm personally not too fussed either way regarding if some people treat it like a sport or not, that's up to them. Of course, the impact it may have on our crags is a different matter though, not sure where I stand on this yet tbh.
In reply to davey_briggs:
Getting my SPSA, as it was then, has meant I've been able to undertake a small amount of paid instructing work - most of which went to a new set of sofas for the lounge - all very worthwhile.
On a different level, I learnt some useful stuff on the assessment regarding ropework, which I've been using ever since. I've also introduced some decent people to rockclimbing.
So - overall - very worthwhile for me.
However, I've come across several halfwits holding SPA qualifications who shouldn't be allowed outside, never mind with a duty of care for their charges.
Getting my SPSA, as it was then, has meant I've been able to undertake a small amount of paid instructing work - most of which went to a new set of sofas for the lounge - all very worthwhile.
On a different level, I learnt some useful stuff on the assessment regarding ropework, which I've been using ever since. I've also introduced some decent people to rockclimbing.
So - overall - very worthwhile for me.
However, I've come across several halfwits holding SPA qualifications who shouldn't be allowed outside, never mind with a duty of care for their charges.
In reply to timjones:
Hi Tim
How do you know that us full time instructors dont volunteer our skills to groups and causes we believe in. I have introduced friends children to climbing and this weekend I am volunteering to run a charity abseil to raise money for an ophanage school in Nepal.
I dont know your circumstances Tim , but either you dont have to worry about income(nice big pension?) which allows you to volunteer a lot of time, keep your competencies up and do CPD. I know a retired police officer who fitted this role who was extremely competent and very commited to the troubled youth he worked with.
But surely those of us who work and earn a living full time from the outdoors, who have gone through the award schemes, who practice CPD, who get out and have our own adventures, who deal with a wide range of clients have something of value to offer Tim.
Ive profitted from all the folk who have left feedback here Tim
http://www.ukclimbing.com/listings/info.php?id=1016
but as you can see from the comments, they all seem to have gained and grown from the transaction.
With all due respect Tim, if I had to earn my living in a different arena and only volunteer my outdoor skills the odd weekends, I wouldnt be as competent and experienced and well regarded,as I am now. And in all honestly there is lots more I want to learn and loads more experience I still want to gain in this wonderful world of mountaineering that we all, professional and volunteer, share a love and passion for.
> (In reply to smudge)
>
> Maybe we'd be better off if we were all volunteers and no-one profited from helping others into our great sport
> Maybe we'd be better off if we were all volunteers and no-one profited from helping others into our great sport
Hi Tim
How do you know that us full time instructors dont volunteer our skills to groups and causes we believe in. I have introduced friends children to climbing and this weekend I am volunteering to run a charity abseil to raise money for an ophanage school in Nepal.
I dont know your circumstances Tim , but either you dont have to worry about income(nice big pension?) which allows you to volunteer a lot of time, keep your competencies up and do CPD. I know a retired police officer who fitted this role who was extremely competent and very commited to the troubled youth he worked with.
But surely those of us who work and earn a living full time from the outdoors, who have gone through the award schemes, who practice CPD, who get out and have our own adventures, who deal with a wide range of clients have something of value to offer Tim.
Ive profitted from all the folk who have left feedback here Tim
http://www.ukclimbing.com/listings/info.php?id=1016
but as you can see from the comments, they all seem to have gained and grown from the transaction.
With all due respect Tim, if I had to earn my living in a different arena and only volunteer my outdoor skills the odd weekends, I wouldnt be as competent and experienced and well regarded,as I am now. And in all honestly there is lots more I want to learn and loads more experience I still want to gain in this wonderful world of mountaineering that we all, professional and volunteer, share a love and passion for.
In reply to timjones: You raise a good point. I'm taking 20 kids out in a couple of weeks, giving up a Saturday to do it. Financially, they simply couldn't do it otherwise.
It's a tough one.
It's a tough one.
In reply to David Hooper:
The last time I looked the 'non-pass rate' for SPA courses run by MLTE providers averaged out at 19.5% over the whole time the award has been running. I think when I looked at the period 1996-2006 the 'norm' was about 22% did not pass; there are no big variations, just 1 or 2 % each way per year
> Talking of assessments (and this is a gross generalisation) over the years I would say this is my average (and I dont know what the MLTE figures are for this) Out of an assessment with 4 candidates I would expect 1-1.5 strong pass, 1.5-2 "satisfactory" passes and maybe 1 defferal (usually on groupwork (abseil)or thin logbook experience).
>
>
The last time I looked the 'non-pass rate' for SPA courses run by MLTE providers averaged out at 19.5% over the whole time the award has been running. I think when I looked at the period 1996-2006 the 'norm' was about 22% did not pass; there are no big variations, just 1 or 2 % each way per year
In reply to Andy Say:
Yep m- your figures sound about right Andy - I just rounded it up cos I couldnt really defer 4/5ths of a person
Yep m- your figures sound about right Andy - I just rounded it up cos I couldnt really defer 4/5ths of a person
In reply to David Hooper: I don't think he was having a pop, read it as tongue in cheek.
I think he was saying that many of us do it voluntarily and help ppl get into climbing. This actually ends up making it difficult for those who rely on it for a living.
I regularly take groups out for free.
But, if you look at say internet consultancy (which is where I get my main income), I'm not competing with loads of people who are offering the service for free.
I agree with what you are saying, but don't think Tim was having a pop!
I think he was saying that many of us do it voluntarily and help ppl get into climbing. This actually ends up making it difficult for those who rely on it for a living.
I regularly take groups out for free.
But, if you look at say internet consultancy (which is where I get my main income), I'm not competing with loads of people who are offering the service for free.
I agree with what you are saying, but don't think Tim was having a pop!
In reply to smudge:
So how many months SPA work would it take to make the same amount of money as a days internet consulting.......?
>
> But, if you look at say internet consultancy (which is where I get my main income), I'm not competing with loads of people who are offering the service for free.
>
> But, if you look at say internet consultancy (which is where I get my main income), I'm not competing with loads of people who are offering the service for free.
>
So how many months SPA work would it take to make the same amount of money as a days internet consulting.......?
In reply to David Hooper:
You could pass them one leg at a time, Dave. Use your imagination!
(...a good, solid performance by the right hand on the day. Unfortunately the left hand has to be deferred on its ability with basic knots.....)
You could pass them one leg at a time, Dave. Use your imagination!
(...a good, solid performance by the right hand on the day. Unfortunately the left hand has to be deferred on its ability with basic knots.....)
In reply to davey_briggs:
Nice one Davey,
I wish my post on having pretty much this debate had generated as much debate!
As for the SPA, can’t imagine it making much money per se, I have one, think it is worthwhile and would do any award between SPA and MIA that might arise.
If you want to instruct climbing it opens the door to the bread and butter centre and wall work. Have no illusions, in my experience the majority of instructing work is top-roping novices by the van load. The introduction of NICAS will probably reinforce this. Over 10,000 log books issued last year, I suspect nearly all to novices.
Regards, Paul
Nice one Davey,
I wish my post on having pretty much this debate had generated as much debate!
As for the SPA, can’t imagine it making much money per se, I have one, think it is worthwhile and would do any award between SPA and MIA that might arise.
If you want to instruct climbing it opens the door to the bread and butter centre and wall work. Have no illusions, in my experience the majority of instructing work is top-roping novices by the van load. The introduction of NICAS will probably reinforce this. Over 10,000 log books issued last year, I suspect nearly all to novices.
Regards, Paul
In reply to timjones:
I think you have to do it for the love of it, paid or not!
> Maybe we'd be better off if we were all volunteers and no-one profited from helping others into our great sport
I think you have to do it for the love of it, paid or not!
In reply to Andy Say: It depends on the client and what return I'm able to give them, but it is a bit frightening when you do the comparison.
It does make more sense to stick the internet stuff then just go climbing. But I really enjoy the climbing work when I can get it, working with young ppl is also really rewarding in other ways.
It does make more sense to stick the internet stuff then just go climbing. But I really enjoy the climbing work when I can get it, working with young ppl is also really rewarding in other ways.
In reply to Dark Peak Paul:
I think you will find that levels 4&5 of NICAS are all about leading indoors so wont really be re-inforcing top roping (although that is certainly true of the entry levels)
I think you will find that levels 4&5 of NICAS are all about leading indoors so wont really be re-inforcing top roping (although that is certainly true of the entry levels)
In reply to David Hooper:
David,
I take your point but I think you will find that the vast majority of the 10,000 will not make level 4 or 5. They are variously funded as school activities, do the introductory levels and are then replaced the following year by the next wave of LEA funded novices. If you know of a way to get the LEA's to cough up for level 4 & 5 please let me know and I will pass it on to my local wall manager in exchange for a lifetime pass.
Regards, Paul
David,
I take your point but I think you will find that the vast majority of the 10,000 will not make level 4 or 5. They are variously funded as school activities, do the introductory levels and are then replaced the following year by the next wave of LEA funded novices. If you know of a way to get the LEA's to cough up for level 4 & 5 please let me know and I will pass it on to my local wall manager in exchange for a lifetime pass.
Regards, Paul
In reply to jezb1:
I know someone who has just got their SPA and it's a joke. Those of us who know the person are livid. This person would mo more have done 40 lead climbs than the rest of us would have climbed Everest without oxygen or a sherpa. Has no real idea of climbing and professes not to even like climbing! I would love to know how the log book was checked if they even bother do to that. In it only for the easy money as now 'qualifies' to get £17 per hour as an SPA instructor.
I know someone who has just got their SPA and it's a joke. Those of us who know the person are livid. This person would mo more have done 40 lead climbs than the rest of us would have climbed Everest without oxygen or a sherpa. Has no real idea of climbing and professes not to even like climbing! I would love to know how the log book was checked if they even bother do to that. In it only for the easy money as now 'qualifies' to get £17 per hour as an SPA instructor.
In reply to ab tat: Minimum wage for SPA instructor. Indoor or out
In reply to grindelwald:
In an ideal world, perhaps. Not what I, or anybody i've worked with, has been getting though.. To be honest, £17 an hour is a bit much for only the SPA, its not exactly difficult to get the award..
In an ideal world, perhaps. Not what I, or anybody i've worked with, has been getting though.. To be honest, £17 an hour is a bit much for only the SPA, its not exactly difficult to get the award..
In reply to ab tat:
Apparently not
But that's what the ones I know get paid and I have to say those who do the job properly deserve it.
Apparently not
But that's what the ones I know get paid and I have to say those who do the job properly deserve it.
In reply to ab tat:
The 2,259 candidates who have been deferred or failed on their assessment might disgree....
> (In reply to grindelwald)
>
> In an ideal world, perhaps. Not what I, or anybody i've worked with, has been getting though.. To be honest, £17 an hour is a bit much for only the SPA, its not exactly difficult to get the award..
>
> In an ideal world, perhaps. Not what I, or anybody i've worked with, has been getting though.. To be honest, £17 an hour is a bit much for only the SPA, its not exactly difficult to get the award..
The 2,259 candidates who have been deferred or failed on their assessment might disgree....
In reply to ab tat:
Not really the Westway in London, was paying £16 per hour for a SPA holder 7 years ago.
When I was at Warwick Uni, we got £20 per hour for sessions at the weekend.
Not really the Westway in London, was paying £16 per hour for a SPA holder 7 years ago.
When I was at Warwick Uni, we got £20 per hour for sessions at the weekend.
In reply to smudge:
It was a tongue in cheek comment directed at your own (hopefully tongue in cheek) comment, about an MIA as a way of minimising competition.
> (In reply to David Hooper) I don't think he was having a pop, read it as tongue in cheek.
>
> I think he was saying that many of us do it voluntarily and help ppl get into climbing. This actually ends up making it difficult for those who rely on it for a living.
>
> I regularly take groups out for free.
>
> But, if you look at say internet consultancy (which is where I get my main income), I'm not competing with loads of people who are offering the service for free.
>
> I agree with what you are saying, but don't think Tim was having a pop!
>
> I think he was saying that many of us do it voluntarily and help ppl get into climbing. This actually ends up making it difficult for those who rely on it for a living.
>
> I regularly take groups out for free.
>
> But, if you look at say internet consultancy (which is where I get my main income), I'm not competing with loads of people who are offering the service for free.
>
> I agree with what you are saying, but don't think Tim was having a pop!
It was a tongue in cheek comment directed at your own (hopefully tongue in cheek) comment, about an MIA as a way of minimising competition.
In reply to Paul at work: I guess that wage is valid for the south of Engerland, it's certinaly not the norm in Scotland. £12 p/h if yer lucky..
In reply to David Hooper:
You're in the right ball park. We're all limited by the time we can put in, I can easily keep on top of SPA level skills and CPD whilst giving time as a volunteer but an MIA whilst working and being active as a volunteer is too big a step due to the need to backtrack and cover a lot of hillwalking ground. I had the relevant current experience 15 to 20 years back but as I moved on to climbing it really is to far back to count as current. There is enough slack to develop into instructing single pitch or maybe even multi pitch leading on non-remote crags and we really need a refinement of the NGB awards to allow time pressed volunteers to specialise instead of becoming a second rate jack of all trades.
> (In reply to timjones)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Hi Tim
>
> How do you know that us full time instructors dont volunteer our skills to groups and causes we believe in. I have introduced friends children to climbing and this weekend I am volunteering to run a charity abseil to raise money for an ophanage school in Nepal.
>
> I dont know your circumstances Tim , but either you dont have to worry about income(nice big pension?) which allows you to volunteer a lot of time, keep your competencies up and do CPD. I know a retired police officer who fitted this role who was extremely competent and very commited to the troubled youth he worked with.
>
> But surely those of us who work and earn a living full time from the outdoors, who have gone through the award schemes, who practice CPD, who get out and have our own adventures, who deal with a wide range of clients have something of value to offer Tim.
>
> Ive profitted from all the folk who have left feedback here Tim
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/listings/info.php?id=1016
>
> but as you can see from the comments, they all seem to have gained and grown from the transaction.
>
> With all due respect Tim, if I had to earn my living in a different arena and only volunteer my outdoor skills the odd weekends, I wouldnt be as competent and experienced and well regarded,as I am now. And in all honestly there is lots more I want to learn and loads more experience I still want to gain in this wonderful world of mountaineering that we all, professional and volunteer, share a love and passion for.
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Hi Tim
>
> How do you know that us full time instructors dont volunteer our skills to groups and causes we believe in. I have introduced friends children to climbing and this weekend I am volunteering to run a charity abseil to raise money for an ophanage school in Nepal.
>
> I dont know your circumstances Tim , but either you dont have to worry about income(nice big pension?) which allows you to volunteer a lot of time, keep your competencies up and do CPD. I know a retired police officer who fitted this role who was extremely competent and very commited to the troubled youth he worked with.
>
> But surely those of us who work and earn a living full time from the outdoors, who have gone through the award schemes, who practice CPD, who get out and have our own adventures, who deal with a wide range of clients have something of value to offer Tim.
>
> Ive profitted from all the folk who have left feedback here Tim
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/listings/info.php?id=1016
>
> but as you can see from the comments, they all seem to have gained and grown from the transaction.
>
> With all due respect Tim, if I had to earn my living in a different arena and only volunteer my outdoor skills the odd weekends, I wouldnt be as competent and experienced and well regarded,as I am now. And in all honestly there is lots more I want to learn and loads more experience I still want to gain in this wonderful world of mountaineering that we all, professional and volunteer, share a love and passion for.
You're in the right ball park. We're all limited by the time we can put in, I can easily keep on top of SPA level skills and CPD whilst giving time as a volunteer but an MIA whilst working and being active as a volunteer is too big a step due to the need to backtrack and cover a lot of hillwalking ground. I had the relevant current experience 15 to 20 years back but as I moved on to climbing it really is to far back to count as current. There is enough slack to develop into instructing single pitch or maybe even multi pitch leading on non-remote crags and we really need a refinement of the NGB awards to allow time pressed volunteers to specialise instead of becoming a second rate jack of all trades.
In reply to Andy Say:
In both disciplines the income is more likely to be dictated by the skills of the indivual and their ability to sell those skills than the qualifications they hold?
> (In reply to smudge)
> [...]
>
> So how many months SPA work would it take to make the same amount of money as a days internet consulting.......?
> [...]
>
> So how many months SPA work would it take to make the same amount of money as a days internet consulting.......?
In both disciplines the income is more likely to be dictated by the skills of the indivual and their ability to sell those skills than the qualifications they hold?
In reply to timjones:
I'm with you on that one Tim. Can't see why I can be taught go top roping at Stanage but not taught to teach leading on the same crag.
I'm with you on that one Tim. Can't see why I can be taught go top roping at Stanage but not taught to teach leading on the same crag.
In reply to Dee:
Sorry JIB, if I had realised that you were a big spazzy spazzer I would have been more sensitive.
> (In reply to the real dr gav)
> [...]
>
> Mind they still wouldn't be as offensive as those who thoughtlessly throw around insults based on the derogatory slang use of the word 'spastic', would they?
> [...]
>
> Mind they still wouldn't be as offensive as those who thoughtlessly throw around insults based on the derogatory slang use of the word 'spastic', would they?
Sorry JIB, if I had realised that you were a big spazzy spazzer I would have been more sensitive.
In reply to grindelwald: £17 per hour for SPA???!! LOL I've never been paid anywhere near that, but then I live in Scotland where we have more hills and crags...
In reply to Nigel R: there would be a number of folk connected with the Training boards who might have sympathy with your view. Unfortunately, nowadays, employers want to employ the lowest qualified for the job and there are many who haven't the time and perhaps the commitment to achieve the full blown SPA or even mightier MIA. The new climbing wall award fills a niche that would have been taken over by an organisation not connected with our world-renowned Mountain training schemes.
aye Andy
aye Andy
In reply to timjones:
That's the problem with trying to be humorous on forums, it can often be read in way that you had not intended. Say the same thing over a pint and everyone finds it funny.
> (In reply to smudge)
>
> It was a tongue in cheek comment directed at your own (hopefully tongue in cheek) comment, about an MIA as a way of minimising competition.
>
> It was a tongue in cheek comment directed at your own (hopefully tongue in cheek) comment, about an MIA as a way of minimising competition.
That's the problem with trying to be humorous on forums, it can often be read in way that you had not intended. Say the same thing over a pint and everyone finds it funny.
In reply to Andy Say:
Brilliant news! I'm glad I'm not the only one to think that there is glaring gap. A move in this direction, even if it results in a mandatory 3 day training course would be a positive step.
> My current 'thing' is to look at the syllabus of the SPA and undertake a revision that acknowledges that sport routes exist in the UK!
Brilliant news! I'm glad I'm not the only one to think that there is glaring gap. A move in this direction, even if it results in a mandatory 3 day training course would be a positive step.
In reply to davey_briggs: Going back to the original question.
It is a very worthwhile course, especially with some providers who are superb instructors. You will learn a lot. You can certainly make a living from it, but there are a good couple of dozen easier ways to make more money.
If you are in the right parts of the country, evening work and weekend work can be easy to find, or if you are in the wrong area, pretty tricky.
However, the course is certainly not prefect. The lack of any movement coaching and any coverage of sport climbing are two issues.
In answer to the points about teaching lead climbing:
As I progressed through my MIA I changed my opinion. As an SPA, I now realise I just 'didn't know what I didn't know'. I now know far, far more, but more importantly I now know how much more I still have to learn.
MIAs are not explicitly assessed in teaching leading. However, they are assessed in their ability to make judgments.
Teaching leading requires a vast amount of judgment combined with currency in teaching that specific skill. Therefore, I wouldn't profess to be particularly competent as I don't do it regularly. If I was teaching lead climbing tomorrow I'd do it safely but it is very unlikely I'd be entirely happy it was taught as well as it could be (or ought to be?).
The same will apply to many other MIs/Guides. Like me, most are able to judge their own strengths and weaknesses and would therefore err well on the side of caution in what and how they would teach.
This self awareness as both a climber and an instructor that comes from a depth of experience is essential. It is far more important than the isolated skills needed to jug up a rope beside someone. The concept that you can easily develop, train or assess that level of personal and professional awareness through an isolated 'bolt-on' module to SPA simply doesn't stand up.
It is a very worthwhile course, especially with some providers who are superb instructors. You will learn a lot. You can certainly make a living from it, but there are a good couple of dozen easier ways to make more money.
If you are in the right parts of the country, evening work and weekend work can be easy to find, or if you are in the wrong area, pretty tricky.
However, the course is certainly not prefect. The lack of any movement coaching and any coverage of sport climbing are two issues.
In answer to the points about teaching lead climbing:
As I progressed through my MIA I changed my opinion. As an SPA, I now realise I just 'didn't know what I didn't know'. I now know far, far more, but more importantly I now know how much more I still have to learn.
MIAs are not explicitly assessed in teaching leading. However, they are assessed in their ability to make judgments.
Teaching leading requires a vast amount of judgment combined with currency in teaching that specific skill. Therefore, I wouldn't profess to be particularly competent as I don't do it regularly. If I was teaching lead climbing tomorrow I'd do it safely but it is very unlikely I'd be entirely happy it was taught as well as it could be (or ought to be?).
The same will apply to many other MIs/Guides. Like me, most are able to judge their own strengths and weaknesses and would therefore err well on the side of caution in what and how they would teach.
This self awareness as both a climber and an instructor that comes from a depth of experience is essential. It is far more important than the isolated skills needed to jug up a rope beside someone. The concept that you can easily develop, train or assess that level of personal and professional awareness through an isolated 'bolt-on' module to SPA simply doesn't stand up.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Well said Mark - its that old matrix of :
Unconcious incompetence Concious incompetence
Concious competence Unconcious competence.
I started my instructing career (and paperchase) in 1982 - gained my MIA in '95 and even now an very accutely aware of how much I still have to learn and how much (personal and work) experience I still want to gain.
Cheers
David
Well said Mark - its that old matrix of :
Unconcious incompetence Concious incompetence
Concious competence Unconcious competence.
I started my instructing career (and paperchase) in 1982 - gained my MIA in '95 and even now an very accutely aware of how much I still have to learn and how much (personal and work) experience I still want to gain.
Cheers
David
In reply to davey_briggs:
SPA great opportunity to get some feedback on your climbing and, often, how to simplify systems so you can give your clients an excellent experience on the crag.
a) not a 'ticket' to print money, success in this area is more a case of building a professional reputation.
b)always pleasant
c) you'll get out of it what you put in !
SPA great opportunity to get some feedback on your climbing and, often, how to simplify systems so you can give your clients an excellent experience on the crag.
a) not a 'ticket' to print money, success in this area is more a case of building a professional reputation.
b)always pleasant
c) you'll get out of it what you put in !
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
A very large number of the population possess this most basic of life skills. I find it rather worrying that MIs and Guides seem to think it's somehow unique to themselves and their peers ;(
If it's an assessable skillset then it can be assessed without the need to tick all the hillwalking boxes. If it can't be assessed on it's own then then no-one should be trying to do it as a part of any award!
Isn't it strange that MIs and guides seem lacking in the skills necessary to do a job that would erode their own market position?
> (In reply to davey_briggs) Going back to the original question.
>
> It is a very worthwhile course, especially with some providers who are superb instructors. You will learn a lot. You can certainly make a living from it, but there are a good couple of dozen easier ways to make more money.
>
> If you are in the right parts of the country, evening work and weekend work can be easy to find, or if you are in the wrong area, pretty tricky.
>
> However, the course is certainly not prefect. The lack of any movement coaching and any coverage of sport climbing are two issues.
>
>
> In answer to the points about teaching lead climbing:
>
> As I progressed through my MIA I changed my opinion. As an SPA, I now realise I just 'didn't know what I didn't know'. I now know far, far more, but more importantly I now know how much more I still have to learn.
>
> MIAs are not explicitly assessed in teaching leading. However, they are assessed in their ability to make judgments.
>
> Teaching leading requires a vast amount of judgment combined with currency in teaching that specific skill. Therefore, I wouldn't profess to be particularly competent as I don't do it regularly. If I was teaching lead climbing tomorrow I'd do it safely but it is very unlikely I'd be entirely happy it was taught as well as it could be (or ought to be?).
>
> The same will apply to many other MIs/Guides. Like me, most are able to judge their own strengths and weaknesses and would therefore err well on the side of caution in what and how they would teach.
>
> It is a very worthwhile course, especially with some providers who are superb instructors. You will learn a lot. You can certainly make a living from it, but there are a good couple of dozen easier ways to make more money.
>
> If you are in the right parts of the country, evening work and weekend work can be easy to find, or if you are in the wrong area, pretty tricky.
>
> However, the course is certainly not prefect. The lack of any movement coaching and any coverage of sport climbing are two issues.
>
>
> In answer to the points about teaching lead climbing:
>
> As I progressed through my MIA I changed my opinion. As an SPA, I now realise I just 'didn't know what I didn't know'. I now know far, far more, but more importantly I now know how much more I still have to learn.
>
> MIAs are not explicitly assessed in teaching leading. However, they are assessed in their ability to make judgments.
>
> Teaching leading requires a vast amount of judgment combined with currency in teaching that specific skill. Therefore, I wouldn't profess to be particularly competent as I don't do it regularly. If I was teaching lead climbing tomorrow I'd do it safely but it is very unlikely I'd be entirely happy it was taught as well as it could be (or ought to be?).
>
> The same will apply to many other MIs/Guides. Like me, most are able to judge their own strengths and weaknesses and would therefore err well on the side of caution in what and how they would teach.
A very large number of the population possess this most basic of life skills. I find it rather worrying that MIs and Guides seem to think it's somehow unique to themselves and their peers ;(
> This self awareness as both a climber and an instructor that comes from a depth of experience is essential. It is far more important than the isolated skills needed to jug up a rope beside someone. The concept that you can easily develop, train or assess that level of personal and professional awareness through an isolated 'bolt-on' module to SPA simply doesn't stand up.
If it's an assessable skillset then it can be assessed without the need to tick all the hillwalking boxes. If it can't be assessed on it's own then then no-one should be trying to do it as a part of any award!
Isn't it strange that MIs and guides seem lacking in the skills necessary to do a job that would erode their own market position?
In reply to davey_briggs:
The SPA is, variously, a useful qualification, proof of basic competence for teaching top-roping, not widely recognised, ignored by most walls, mis-understood by many, but a good start.
I wouldn't say it's pointless and meaningless, but you're unlikely to make much money out of it beyond the few quid you mention - you'll be paid pretty much the same as the kid that stacks the shelves at Tescos, but will have more fun.
I did it because I needed it to take the Scouts to certain places, such as Dancing Ledge. And I aced the assessment.
The SPA is, variously, a useful qualification, proof of basic competence for teaching top-roping, not widely recognised, ignored by most walls, mis-understood by many, but a good start.
I wouldn't say it's pointless and meaningless, but you're unlikely to make much money out of it beyond the few quid you mention - you'll be paid pretty much the same as the kid that stacks the shelves at Tescos, but will have more fun.
I did it because I needed it to take the Scouts to certain places, such as Dancing Ledge. And I aced the assessment.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
As I progressed through my MIA I changed my opinion. As an SPA, I now realise I just 'didn't know what I didn't know'. I now know far, far more, but more importantly I now know how much more I still have to learn.
Mark,
Personally, I can see no practical barrier to a teaching leading ‘bolt on’ to the SPA. I think the term ‘bolt on’ is a misnomer. I would expect it to be a high level course of training and assessment for candidates holding the SPA who are able to meet higher registration criteria. My expectation is that it would be applicable to venues meeting the same definition of single pitch as laid out in the SPA handbook and also sports climbing venues. It would also be my expectation that candidates would have personal experience of a good number of venues outside of the SPA remit.
For arguments sake, I would expect the technical standard to be no lower than the MIA, I would propose that the training was a modified version of days 1 through 4 of the MIA and the assessment a modified version of days of days 1 through 3 of the same. Sitting much the same written paper also seems reasonable.
If such a course ever becomes available, I want to be at the front of the queue, and I would bring my 25 years of climbing experience with me.
Regards, Paul
As I progressed through my MIA I changed my opinion. As an SPA, I now realise I just 'didn't know what I didn't know'. I now know far, far more, but more importantly I now know how much more I still have to learn.
Mark,
Personally, I can see no practical barrier to a teaching leading ‘bolt on’ to the SPA. I think the term ‘bolt on’ is a misnomer. I would expect it to be a high level course of training and assessment for candidates holding the SPA who are able to meet higher registration criteria. My expectation is that it would be applicable to venues meeting the same definition of single pitch as laid out in the SPA handbook and also sports climbing venues. It would also be my expectation that candidates would have personal experience of a good number of venues outside of the SPA remit.
For arguments sake, I would expect the technical standard to be no lower than the MIA, I would propose that the training was a modified version of days 1 through 4 of the MIA and the assessment a modified version of days of days 1 through 3 of the same. Sitting much the same written paper also seems reasonable.
If such a course ever becomes available, I want to be at the front of the queue, and I would bring my 25 years of climbing experience with me.
Regards, Paul
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
That's like in any subject though. There's never a more confident scientist than an undergraduate student, as a scientist progresses through they get more and more muddled and realise the extent of what you don't know.
There's a good paper on the importance of stupidity. Slightly different angle as this is about that we should feel stupid http://www.scribd.com/doc/6149917/Importance-of-Stupidity-in-Science
> (In reply to davey_briggs)
>
> As I progressed through my MIA I changed my opinion. As an SPA, I now realise I just 'didn't know what I didn't know'. I now know far, far more, but more importantly I now know how much more I still have to learn.
>
>
> As I progressed through my MIA I changed my opinion. As an SPA, I now realise I just 'didn't know what I didn't know'. I now know far, far more, but more importantly I now know how much more I still have to learn.
>
That's like in any subject though. There's never a more confident scientist than an undergraduate student, as a scientist progresses through they get more and more muddled and realise the extent of what you don't know.
There's a good paper on the importance of stupidity. Slightly different angle as this is about that we should feel stupid http://www.scribd.com/doc/6149917/Importance-of-Stupidity-in-Science
In reply to IainRUK: I did my spsa in 1995 and have eventually ended up in the international Oil Industry, i do however do consultancy work in the arts and media and also sometimes work as an instructor.
I am not stupid Ian so dont insult me and others like me, I have probably forgotten more than you know
I am not stupid Ian so dont insult me and others like me, I have probably forgotten more than you know
In reply to Dark Peak Paul: Paul, brilliant post. I had a conversation with Mal Creasey, along these lines but not in enough detail.
I don't see it as a bolt on course, it's a course that can sit between SPA and MIA. As we all seem to be agreeing on one point, there is a massive gap between SPA and MIA.
I'd race you to get to the front of the queue.
I don't see it as a bolt on course, it's a course that can sit between SPA and MIA. As we all seem to be agreeing on one point, there is a massive gap between SPA and MIA.
I'd race you to get to the front of the queue.
In reply to smudge:
Thanks Smudge,
I'd be glad to have you join me, I was starting to feel a bit lonely.
Regards, Paul
Thanks Smudge,
I'd be glad to have you join me, I was starting to feel a bit lonely.
Regards, Paul
In reply to davey_briggs: Smudge and DArk Peak I'm right with you
In reply to davey_briggs: Going to be a bit of a ramble here.
I believe SPA is a worthwhile qualification. It demonstrates to a client/employer that you have achieved a level of competence. The arguments about standards should be higher, there are some numpties etc are a red-herring.
If the personal climbing standard were higher, what would it prove? That the individual could climb harder, which has nothing at all to do with competency as an instructor. Numpties? Well they exist everywhere; just drive down the road and you'll see "qualified" people behaving like complete idiots.
As an aside, I've seen MIA holders at whom I've raised an eyebrow.
Taken a little further, it is quite explicit in the scheme that it is an employer's responsibility to ensure they are employing the right person, qualification notwithstanding.
Having said that, it's not a qualification that's going to make you rich (are any in outdoor activities?).
From a personal perspective it's where I'm going to stay; personal circumstances make it impossible for me to even consider ML/MIA.
It would be nice to think that a Single Pitch Leading Award might appear at some time. It's something I feel quite optimistic about. Not so many years ago SPA was considered to be adequate as an entry-level qualification. We now have CWA and (soon) CWLA, along with the MLTA as a supporting organisation.
I have massive confidence in the current MLT officers as intelligent and forward looking people who will put forward appropriate proposals to the board. It may move a little slowly but it's moving, and in the right direction.
Mike
I believe SPA is a worthwhile qualification. It demonstrates to a client/employer that you have achieved a level of competence. The arguments about standards should be higher, there are some numpties etc are a red-herring.
If the personal climbing standard were higher, what would it prove? That the individual could climb harder, which has nothing at all to do with competency as an instructor. Numpties? Well they exist everywhere; just drive down the road and you'll see "qualified" people behaving like complete idiots.
As an aside, I've seen MIA holders at whom I've raised an eyebrow.
Taken a little further, it is quite explicit in the scheme that it is an employer's responsibility to ensure they are employing the right person, qualification notwithstanding.
Having said that, it's not a qualification that's going to make you rich (are any in outdoor activities?).
From a personal perspective it's where I'm going to stay; personal circumstances make it impossible for me to even consider ML/MIA.
It would be nice to think that a Single Pitch Leading Award might appear at some time. It's something I feel quite optimistic about. Not so many years ago SPA was considered to be adequate as an entry-level qualification. We now have CWA and (soon) CWLA, along with the MLTA as a supporting organisation.
I have massive confidence in the current MLT officers as intelligent and forward looking people who will put forward appropriate proposals to the board. It may move a little slowly but it's moving, and in the right direction.
Mike
In reply to mike swann:
Mike,
It seems we hold similar views. I think that now would be a really good time to speak out on the subject and give the MLT some encouragement. They can hardly be expected to respond to an unspoken demand, even if it exists.
Regards, Paul
Mike,
It seems we hold similar views. I think that now would be a really good time to speak out on the subject and give the MLT some encouragement. They can hardly be expected to respond to an unspoken demand, even if it exists.
Regards, Paul
In reply to mike swann: i agree with you on the spa in regards to leading, why not have this included in the remit??
davey.
davey.
In reply to davey_briggs: The issue with all these things is in pinning down the detail.
A separate registration?
What pre-reqs?
Minimum grade of personal climbing?
Then write a syllabus.
Briefings for providers.
Design all the admin to sit behind it.
Glad it's not me!
A separate registration?
What pre-reqs?
Minimum grade of personal climbing?
Then write a syllabus.
Briefings for providers.
Design all the admin to sit behind it.
Glad it's not me!
In reply to LittleLuka:
or we are generally tight?
> (In reply to grindelwald) £17 per hour for SPA???!! LOL I've never been paid anywhere near that, but then I live in Scotland where we have more hills and crags...
or we are generally tight?
In reply to davey_briggs: It's just daft. They passed me and I did everything wrong. I've been climbing for years but hadn't a clue about all the technical stuff. There were non-climbers in the group who were very slick with fancy knots but clueless about how to deal with groups of kids. Everybody passed. It was joke qualification.
In reply to alan moore:
name the provider ?
they might have been a dodgy one copying stickers and registration forms ...
it has been know to happen.. you should contact Andy Say on here via MLTUK details and let him know if you are being serious..
> (In reply to davey_briggs) They passed me and I did everything wrong. I've been climbing for years but hadn't a clue about all the technical stuff. There were non-climbers in the group who were very slick with fancy knots but clueless about how to deal with groups of kids. Everybody passed. It was joke qualification.
name the provider ?
they might have been a dodgy one copying stickers and registration forms ...
it has been know to happen.. you should contact Andy Say on here via MLTUK details and let him know if you are being serious..
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