UKC

I'm never sure if I'm allowed to use features or not with my hands in indoor climbing. I've been told that you can only use features with your feet when the grading doesn't specify otherwise. If this is true then what qualifies as a feature? Does this mean that I can't place by hand on a flat part of the wall for balance because this would be considered a feature as it isn't a bolted hold?

In reply to Juggler13:

It really doesn't matter - an indoor wall is only a training facility - if you need to use features then do so - but aim to do without as your technique improves

that's my opinion for what it's worth - there will be others

In reply to Juggler13:

>"I've been told that you can only use features with your feet when the grading doesn't specify otherwise."

In my book, everything is in for hands and feet except the other colour holds unless the blurb for the route explicitly says otherwise.

In reply to csw: I do not consider an indoor wall as just a training facility. It's important to know whether the features are in or out when considering the grade of the climb.

In reply to Juggler13: everything is in for your hands and feet as far as features are concerned - this also includes any ladders left in the locality.

In reply to Juggler13:

Ask whoever set the route?

In reply to JLS: I'm relieved to know that since I was seriously stuck on a climb at K2 in Crawley that seemed much more difficult than its 6b grade without being able to use features for hands.
Perhaps the rule just applies to indoor bouldering grades - since this is what I was doing when I was told not to use features with my hands?

In reply to Juggler13:

I know it's a difficult concept to get your head around, but have you thought about asking the staff at the wall? You know, real people who are in a position to know the answer?

Otherwise, either make your own mind up whether they're in or out or, and possibly better, get over yourself; it's a climbing wall, not an exam.

T.

In reply to Juggler13:

features are always in for hands and feet unless otherwise stated

In reply to Juggler13:
If you're asking in regard to a climb at K2 Crawley then features are for feet only. It's the same at Highsports in Salfords too.

In reply to chrisace69: OK thanks. It sounds like there's not a standard rule for this then. Looks like I'll have to rethink the climb at K2.

In reply to Juggler13:


Or it's under graded. Or a hold has spun. Or you got it all wrong. Or...

Does it really matter? Grades on individual routes are a loose guide, nothing more.

jk

In reply to Juggler13:

This should be moved to thre 'Walls & Training' forum.

In reply to Juggler13:

Coloured holds for hands ONLY. Features and holds for feet. (Unless specified).
If you use features for hands too, it's only V.Diff!

In reply to Juggler13: As far as the use of features affecting the grade goes, it seems to depend on the wall. IIRC, at Alien Rock all routes except those on the lead walls are graded without the use of features at all unless the board at the foot of the panel says otherwise.

In reply to Juggler13:


Sounds like a very 'serious' route...

In reply to Juggler13:

I agree with the previous statement. An indoor wall is purely a training facility...in the same way a runner may use a teadmill in a gym for training. I don't consider it important to know whether the features are in or out when considering the grade of the route because the grade doesn't matter. It is not in the least bit comparible to an outdoor climb, and therefore cruising a 6a indoors proves only that you can tell the difference between the different colours and string a few moves together whilst clipping bolts. You cannot follow the pink route up the Indian Face, so to speak. It's just training for the real thing.

In reply to Mike Hartley: How about the numerous indoor climbing competitions? Surely indoor climbing has now become a sport in its own right. Its fine if you just use indoor climbing to train for outdoors but I don't think you should make the statement that all indoor climbing is purely for training.

For the record, I prefer outdoor climbing but still enjoy indoor climbing regularly.

In reply to Mike Hartley:

>"in the same way a runner may use a teadmill in a gym for training... the grade doesn't matter."

You don't think the knowing the wall grade is like a runner knowing how fast the treadmill is going?

In reply to Juggler13:

I suppose it is a very subjective topic. I do know folk who climb purely indoors and although I can't understand the rationale behind it, I know enough to know they enjoy it. I climb indoors quite regularly myself, especially in bad weather, but I consider it just training. I keeps me in practice for when I get out onto rock.

I've never fully understood indoor climbing competitions, though that's not to say I don't respect the levels at which these folks climb...it's far beyond anything I can do. Climbing is never about scoring points and getting trophies for me. It is about getting out and forgetting everything but the climb...an escape from reality (everybody needs one, else you'll lose your mind). As corny as it sounds; it's freedom.

In responce to your origin post; I always suspected that you could use features for feet on any route unless specifically stated otherwise. That said, I've never payed much mind to the grades of an indoor wall...I don't even think my local wall is 'officially' graded.

In reply to Mike Hartley:

By htta argument it wouldn't be remotely important for the same runner on the treamill to have any knowledge of how far he'd run would it?

Oddly enough I think most runners would think it important to know how far they are running on a training run, even on a treadmill.

Iain

In reply to Juggler13: The great majority of walls I have known allow features for feet but not hands, unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Allowing features for feet helps to prevent routes being too height dependant.

Iain

In reply to Juggler13:
Usual bollocks written on here. Yours is a legitimate question. Whether indoor walls are merely a training facility or not(for some they are an end in their own right) it is useful to be able to measure one's performance just as one might on a treadmill.

Each wall seems to have different ideas on what is "in" and what is "out" but few bother to make them clear. Ask the staff and suggest they make it clear in addition the endless signage about arse wiping et.

In reply to Juggler13: I have seen routes with lower grades for features only than the 'hold routes'This means that using the features would lower all routes to this grade? I,m as confused as you and never know what's correct procedure. Perhaps thats why so many replies on here think they are only for training?

In reply to csw:
err quite the opposite I'd say! try and use features (particularly for your feet) as they generally are the best approximation to the outdoors.

In reply to csw:

err quite the opposite I'd say! Using features (particularly for your feet) is the best approximation to the outdoors.

In reply to Postmanpat:
it does seem a bit silly when walls don't clearly say if features are in or not when someone has spent time route setting... Most walls I've visited have them in for feet but not hands

In reply to Juggler13: I think your question epitomises what I don't like about indoor climbing. Each to their own, obviously - and I'm not saying that in a patronising way.

In reply to Juggler13: Routes on indoor walls are man made. Climbing a red line on a picture in a guide, when you could have just walked up the grass, is also a man made challenge, and still involves human creativity in devising the route. There is less human creativity in setting a challenge to climb to the top of a big lump of rock by the easiest route, assuming that you have no reason to go up there apart from taking up the challenge, it is still an artificial challenge. Climbing indoors and climbing outdoors are both artificial challenges, and equally valid ones.

Indoor walls do not have to be simulations of outdoor crags. Modern bouldering walls are moving away from this model, with their smooth walls and bolt on volumes. There is an argument for putting small features on some walls, but if it is necessary to ban the use of hands on features for anything other than the hardest routes, it is arguable that that is symptomatic of a wall that is too heavily featured.

In reply to Juggler13:

Climb route with features, if you get up it climb route without features. Realise that grades are irrelevant at indoor walls for anything other than 'I should/shouldn't be able to climb this'. If it really bothers you guess a grade subtract 2 and that should be about right.

In reply to Juggler13: I laugh at guy's who say "I can on-sight 7c" were and what I reply well on the local climbing wall. Then they attempt a HVS and fail. Sorry lads lets not compare indoor to out. While walls can be great training mediums there not Tremdoc or Dunkeld. Be aware!

I asked this question to wall staff when I first started climbing. I was told that everything is in unless the route card actually specifies otherwise. This was at MCC (Manchester). As someone else has mentioned -- if in doubt, ask the route setter or member of staff.

However, outdoor you should stay away from the green holds...

In reply to Juggler13: At Kendal you can only use features for hands if it says so

On the grit wall at rockcity you can ONLY use feature's! there are no holds and you can protect it with trad gear! amazing fun when your belayer get excited and unzips all your nuts!

In reply to antwan:

Has that actually happened, I seem to recall those slots being almost textbook perfect?

jk

In reply to Bulls Crack:
Using features (particularly for your feet) is the best approximation to the outdoors.

Good point. Good technique outdoors often involves using small intermediate holds, nubbins, smears etc. Limiting yourself to a line of coloured holds will be bad for your technique outdoors. Apart from being bloody boring....

In reply to csw:


Thats the most sensible thing I've ever read on UKC!

In reply to jkarran: Yeah, well, not quite all of them as i'm a wimp and clipped the third bolt,

Most likely they ont like the profile of the metolius curved nuts, Rocks felt alot safer once i had a set.

I can give you the number of my belayer at the time who ended up with two nuts zip lining into a painful area!

In reply to Juggler13:

The Bear Rock used to have notices up saying that features were for feet only, unless otherwise specified. So if you wanted to do the grade, then no pulling on features. Using the flat of your hand on the wall does not mean you are using a feature.

However, the newest wall, is - I believe - graded for using features for hands, although obviously you can make the grade harder by choosing not to use them...

||-)

In reply to antwan:


No need. Sounds like he got what was coming to him
jk