UKC

There's a chap round my way running with a reasonable sized rucksack on, either wearing those slightly scary looking Vibram Fivefingers or going barefoot.

It strikes me that running barefoot on urban pavements is a brave/slightly daft* thing to do, but anyway... I'll ask him if I get chance, but I was wondering, in a purely speculative way, what sort of event someone might be training for if they were running barefoot. On a connected note, is there anyone amongst UKC's runners who runs barefoot or wearing those Fivefingers things?


*daft because of bits and bobs of broken glass, dog crap, etc

In reply to Tall Clare:

when i saw the topic title i immediately thought you were going shoeless like Zola Budd! But you're quite right, there's way too much debris on the roads/footpaths to be running barefoot

In reply to the inspiral carpet: But there is a third way..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1170253/The-painful-truth-t...

I rather like the idea that the multi billion dollar trainer industry is actually just hype

In reply to Siward:

very interesting article!

In reply to the inspiral carpet:
>...there's way too much debris on the roads/footpaths to be running barefoot

Hence the Vibrams. They are great for protecting your feet from the glass, stones etc without losing the feel of the running surface. Barefoot running's not for everyone and it's not a straightforward transition after many years adapted to walking/running in trainers.

I started walking/running in Vibrams two years ago. Improved foot strength, less impact on joints and as a result fewer injuries and better running style. I had a hip injury that plagued me for years running anything over seven or eight miles. Since barefooting the pain has gone, even after several mountain marathons and long distance fell races. I guess it's more to do with muscle balance than footwear but the barefooting promoted this naturally without me doing specific exercises.

Jim

In reply to Tall Clare:

Not really an answer to your question but a friend of mine got a quite bad injury running in the dark one winter night & he stepped on the base of a broken bottle (sharp side up) in his running shoes!

Regards
Andy

In reply to Tall Clare:

I was once running a (road) marathon before and saw that the guy next to me was running it barefoot. So there must be people out there who enjoy it, not that I've any idea why!

In reply to Tall Clare:

I like the idea of the fivefingers but with very 'non-standard' shaped feet I'm not sure they'd work for me.

I love not wearing shoes

In reply to ebygomm: where can i get some of these non-shoe things? I hate wearing shoes and flip flops and can do with protecting my feet.

In reply to RockAngel:

have a google - I've just found some online stockists but I'm not sure where offline is doing them.

Ebygomm: I'd like to try them, out of morbid curiosity, but my feet are troubled enough already.

In reply to Rock Angel:

ah - there y'go: http://sites.google.com/site/primallifestyle/fivefingers/stockists

In reply to Siward:

im gonna have a little barefoot run tonigth on the treadmill and see whats in this

In reply to Tall Clare:

Every time I buy myself a new pair of road running shoes I get the feeling that I'm floating on air when I go out for a run. It definitely makes a difference to the battering that your joints take over long distances.

Don't really fancy running with nothing at all on my feet!

In reply to Bonobo: How do you find running off road barefooted? I say this as I find walking around barefooted on slippy or very unlevel ground quite tricky with my feet skating off things a lot, and so appreciate some decent lugs to bite into the terrain.

In reply to Tall Clare:

they look fantastic, I want some!

In reply to Tall Clare:

Check out the video here of running barefoot vs 'shoed':

http://conditioningresearch.blogspot.com/2009/06/more-barefoot-stuff.html

Also, you might want to look at Dr Craig Richard's site:

http://barefootrunningshoe.blogspot.com/

Cheers,
Chris

In reply to Sarah H:

A lot of funny looks.

In reply to Doug:
Your running gait adapts so that landing more on the forefoot, rather than pounding on your heels, allows your leg muscles to absorb the impact in a more controlled and progressive way and thus reducing knee and ankle strain.

In reply to Liam:
Wet and muddy conditions take a bit of getting used to and going barefoot or "FiveFingered" is not impossible. On the flatter runs I've not found it too much of a problem, give or take a bit of "Wheelspin". I still revert to my Inov8's when the going gets tougher, steeper and rougher.

Jim

In reply to Tall Clare:

I just got my FiveFingers last night. My brother just came back from New York and got me some over there. They are about half the price than they are here.

Was wearing them last night, love them, might give them a bash when out running and see how it feels.

In reply to Mr_Yeti:

Take it easy though. If it's all new territory you don't want to go tearing your calf muscle or your Plantar Fascia for that matter.

If your not used to forefoot landing whilst running you'll possibly have a shorter/weaker calf muscle than required to go at it full tilt. Overdoing it will result in tears. If your calf doesn't give up first then the achilles or Plantar Fascia will be soon to follow.

A bit of Run/Walk intervals for short distances at first, if you must, but I'd get used to a bit of walking in them first. Leaning forward whilst moving is key, you don't want to be striking the ground with your heels, and a slightly bent knee at point of impact. It feels very strange at first.

It took me a couple of months before braving a proper run on tarmac, even then I didn't push it too far too fast.

Have fun

Jim

In reply to Bonobo:

i lived in australia for a while a few years ago but not in a big city. i remember seeing kids walking to school barefoot quite often. on occasional trips to the local shops i went unshod and was surprised by how comfortable it felt. however, the streets were immaculately clean and i suppose my biggest worry were things like spiders and snakes - although i didn't walk on the grass/bush etc. i particularly remember enjoying the cool feeling at supermarkets when it was 40*+ outside.

i'd never run barefoot unless on perfect grass which is unheard of - even at wembley. our feet aren't designed to take the impact we would receive from concrete etc.

In reply to Page:

That's the nub of it. Warmth, cushioning, protection are what trainers offer. No good runner I know who runs 40 + miles a week would ever say trainers aren't important.

There was a guy who ran marathons barefoot recently, very slowly though.

In reply to Page:


That's what worries me. We have evolved to run barefoot, but where in "nature" do you get surfaces as hard as roads?

In reply to Tall Clare:

No its typical daily mail tripe.

Roger Banister in that photo is in a pair of track spikes. look at a modern pair of track or X-country spikes and they will be nearly identical. Its road shoes that have developed you don't do high millage in racing spikes.

Also Over pronation used in the 40's and 50's to be known as flat feet. They disqualified you from national service and you were regarded as medically unfit to undertake something like a half marathon. That was because you would get an injury like shin splints very quickly. In short those people who ran competertively in the 60's were much more likely to be club level atheltes and even those would be the people who could cope with large training millages in thin soled canvas shoes.

As for the price of the trainers being related to injury risk. Runners who don't have biomechanical problems buy cheap trainers (why spend £80 on shoes when a £30 pair are lighter as well as cheaper and you don't get injured in them). The people who buy expenisive shoes are those with a history of injuries which then reveal a problem like over or under pronation.

In reply to davidwright:

That bit of the article was odd - it was a good example of selective reporting.

it was interesting for me because I've not read *anything* about barefoot running. Thanks for the clarification though - all makes sense.

In reply to davidwright:

what is to stop you learning to run landing forefoot first, wearing trainers? then you get the best of both worlds.

Sub-saharan Africa? Volcanic regions?

In reply to bouldery bits:


even sun baked mud has 'give' in it and will occasionally have some form of light grass covering in sections which will dampen shock a little; concrete doesn't yield at all. thinking back to hunter-gatherer types, it'd be interesting to know if these people ran for hunting purposes in volcanic regions. if they were running on that kind of terrain it'd seem fairly high risk given the fact that it'd be easy to cut the feet on sharp edges and possibly create serious ankle injuries.

i also think that in short bursts the feet can take hard surfaces. it's the long mileage that would be a problem and speaking in historical terms i'm not sure 'man' would run for long distances continuously on hard surfaces for hunting/migrating etc? i'm not sure. i would assume they'd track by walking then attack quickly - or better yet use the old noodle and trap animals, etc.

In reply to Tall Clare: I did a race last summer where you had to run through really boggy ground (ie thigh deep in places!) and it kinda felt amazing, like oozing and great fun! The thought of running off road in bare feet just for the sensation of it sounds really nice. But, that's just in fanciful theory (for me) as in reality I'd be constantly stubbing my toes, going over my ankles, skiting about on wet grass. And I was running through farm land today and had to cross through mud and cow shit, mmmmmmm lovely in bare feet, lol!

In reply to SonyaD: i've done the bare foot through cow poo, can't say i'd recommend it!

In reply to ebygomm: I can imagine! <it not being nice, not you running through cow shit> It's not even all that pleasant with trainers on! But it was either that or turn back.

PS - Do tell? How did you manage cow poo bare foot?

In reply to Tall Clare:

Very hot when I got up this morning so went barefoot for a while.

Then stubbed one of my toes on the leg of the computer desk.
It's now bruised, swollen and very painful.

So, barefoot anywhere can be dangerous.

In reply to SonyaD: went across a field from where we were staying to go feed some horses and was too lazy to put some shoes on first.

In reply to davidwright:


Well said, its amazing how the idea of causality escapes even supposedly learned people, next they will be saying that going to the doctors makes you ill after a survey carried out asking people about their health and how often they go to the doctors!

In reply to ebygomm: Last time I wandered bare foot in the garden my foot got stung by a wasp. Trainers every time I reckon.

Ugh, you'd have to have feet (and joints!) of steel to run barefoot on the roads I reckon.

In reply to SonyaD: in my experience, the more you walk around barefoot the softer your feet are, whether this continues if you run a lot on concrete i've no idea

In reply to davidwright:

I am not sure it is that simple David.

Bannister ran in simple leather slippers. A cursory google for X-Country trainers yields a much higher level of sophistication including:

- Forefoot and heel cushioning - which MUST affect your gait,
- Mesh upper - Needed to stop shod feet overheating and blistering,
- Support for the forefoot, mid and rearfoot - which again MUST affect your gait,
- Padding around the heel and ankle - for comfort.

Also, closed toed shoes are believed to inhibit formation of the arches of the foot - http://www.jbjs.org.uk/cgi/reprint/74-B/4/525

Specifically, going barefoot on varying terrain facilitates the formation of arches.

If barefooting was a problem then you'd see evidence in indigenous tribes and the fossil records.

In reply to ebygomm: Maybe you've just got nice, soft, girly feet ;oP
Seriously though, wonder if you find that cos you have less time spent in shoes, rubbing at your feet? Or, conversely, varying surfaces which are causing enough friction to your feet to rub away more dead skin cells.

In reply to Tall Clare:

what little i know of the subject, he could be i member of the French foreign legion that forgot his map ?

In reply to Tall Clare:

I've been running barefoot regularly since the last thread on this topic. But, i only run barefoot for a short distance and on wet sand or grass. My theory was that it would strengthen my feet to help prevent injuries. So far i haven't had any injuries...

good luck

In reply to wilding:


thanks, but I've got no intention of running barefoot!

In reply to IainRUK:


*Ahem* (see my post above). I (and therefore he) would have been done in about 3:35--not quick but not THAT slowly!

In reply to Tall Clare:

There is some interesting stuff here about the Tarahumara and their Huaraches:

http://barefootted.com/labels/tarahumara.html

In reply to alicia: Sorry, but for a regular running guy 3:30 plus times can be considered pretty slow. For a non-runner 3:30 is a solid time. For a runner 3:30 + wouldn't be a good moment. That's basically at least a mnute a mile, maybe 2 minutes a mile off what most regular runners would call a good blokes marathon time.

In reply to wilding: Careful running on sand, it can be really bad for your achilles tendon as the sand gives way as your heel comes down after the forefoot strike. Each time you stretch it, if it's weak or your unlucky it may just SNAP!

In reply to TheoL:

I only run on hard wet sand at low tide, definitely none of the soft stuff

In reply to IainRUK:

Fair enough, I didn't know times were so different for the guys. Boston Marathon has its qualifying times about half an hour faster for men v. women in each age group, so pretty much right with what you said.

In reply to Tall Clare:

Another article you may find interesting:

http://health.usnews.com/blogs/on-fitness/2009/04/28/born-to-run-christophe...

In reply to Tall Clare:

primal lifestyle
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In reply to Tall Clare:

had a 3 mile run last night barefoot ( well in my socks)

it was great, realy great.

The way your toes splay just before they hit the ground , like they could sense how close to impact they were, do our feet have radar in em?

realy made me think, Ive a gammy knee and even a small run like that it usualy grumbles the next day, knee is quiet, very bottom of calves feel tight immediately left and right of my ankle up halfway on my legs.

takes a while of conscious effort to avoid heel impact but for long, say about 5 mins in your on auto and landing almost flat foot i found.

ill defo try this again at weekend on a gentle 5miler

In reply to Daithi O Murachu: This guy switched to barefoot due to knee injuries

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7692053.stm

In reply to Tall Clare: Out of interest have people heard of Trevor Panther?.He used to climb barefoot on southern sandstone and when I saw him down there he used to walk around barefoot as well.I tried to find a picture on the web but nothing popped up.
sjm

In reply to IainRUK:

ta for that ian, its giving me ideas

In reply to Tall Clare: Don't know if it's already been mentioned, but Born to Run by Chris McDougall is worth a read.

In reply to sjminfife: Climbing barefoot on Southern sandstone is the way. And walking around barefoot isn't really all that hardcore.