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http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/art...
I'm not sure how using the authors title a geographical space can be racist but I guess they mean those who live in the countryside ?
Whatever...apart from school parties from the Midlands, I've never met a black or Asian climber and hardly ever seen anyone from an ethnic background in the hills.
I think that has to be down to plain choice not any dubious socio-cultural or political reason on the part of the white residents/users myself.
I'm not sure how using the authors title a geographical space can be racist but I guess they mean those who live in the countryside ?
Whatever...apart from school parties from the Midlands, I've never met a black or Asian climber and hardly ever seen anyone from an ethnic background in the hills.
I think that has to be down to plain choice not any dubious socio-cultural or political reason on the part of the white residents/users myself.
In reply to Jonno: Just on here there is Nadim and Rahan (BMC Vice Pres) Siddiqui, Mita and many more.
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Jonno) Just on here there is Nadim and Rahan (BMC Vice Pres) Siddiqui, Mita. And many more threads on the subject over the years
In reply to Jonno:
Maybe they're avoiding you.
But seriously, I'm surprised that you say that. It's not my experience at all.
> I've never met a black or Asian climber and hardly ever seen anyone from an ethnic background in the hills.
Maybe they're avoiding you.
But seriously, I'm surprised that you say that. It's not my experience at all.
In reply to Jonno:
I thought this was going to be a thread about Welsh pubs...
Well they start off with somewhat flawed assumption, namely that if 9% of the population is from an ethnic minority it is reasonable to expect 9% of the visitors to the National Parks to be from an ethnic minority. Ergo if this isn't the case it must be something inherent to the National Parks that is driving would-be visitors from minorities away.
But this is quite obviously wrong. It assumes that a) minorities are randomly distributed across the population and b) that National Park visitors represent a random sample of the population. Both of these assumptions are demonstrably incorrect. The conclusion is more likely that this mismatch between 9% and 1% is a reflection of the inequality of society as a whole not some sort of racist agenda in the countryside. Hence I'm not really sure that large targeted subsidies to improve access to minorities is in anyway going to help.
I thought this was going to be a thread about Welsh pubs...
Well they start off with somewhat flawed assumption, namely that if 9% of the population is from an ethnic minority it is reasonable to expect 9% of the visitors to the National Parks to be from an ethnic minority. Ergo if this isn't the case it must be something inherent to the National Parks that is driving would-be visitors from minorities away.
But this is quite obviously wrong. It assumes that a) minorities are randomly distributed across the population and b) that National Park visitors represent a random sample of the population. Both of these assumptions are demonstrably incorrect. The conclusion is more likely that this mismatch between 9% and 1% is a reflection of the inequality of society as a whole not some sort of racist agenda in the countryside. Hence I'm not really sure that large targeted subsidies to improve access to minorities is in anyway going to help.
In reply to Jonno:
after reading the article I'd say that "Is the countryside racist?" is an attempt by the Times Online to make an article controverial by attaching a very loosly relevant headline on it. Not really surprising.
I would say a more accurate title would be "Do the cultural habits of Britain's Asian population prevent them from appreciating the countryside?", which could easily be expanded to "Is there a large number of our population that don't appreciate the countryside?". It seems to me the racism part of the article had very little to do with the point except to say when you enter some country pubs people stare at you - this is not because you're asian but because they do it to everyone.
When are journalists going to be told to stop playing on the racism card as surely the biased reporting doesn't help the problem?
rant over.....it's gonna be a long week I reckon
after reading the article I'd say that "Is the countryside racist?" is an attempt by the Times Online to make an article controverial by attaching a very loosly relevant headline on it. Not really surprising.
I would say a more accurate title would be "Do the cultural habits of Britain's Asian population prevent them from appreciating the countryside?", which could easily be expanded to "Is there a large number of our population that don't appreciate the countryside?". It seems to me the racism part of the article had very little to do with the point except to say when you enter some country pubs people stare at you - this is not because you're asian but because they do it to everyone.
When are journalists going to be told to stop playing on the racism card as surely the biased reporting doesn't help the problem?
rant over.....it's gonna be a long week I reckon
In reply to Scarab9:
Good point well made. I was going to say something similar. I had a conversation about this yesterday. Someone who knows far more about these things than I do said that he thought it was a cultural thing. Playing the racist card is poor and lazy journalism in my opinion.
> (In reply to Jonno)
>
> after reading the article I'd say that "Is the countryside racist?" is an attempt by the Times Online to make an article controverial by attaching a very loosly relevant headline on it. Not really surprising.
>
> I would say a more accurate title would be "Do the cultural habits of Britain's Asian population prevent them from appreciating the countryside?", which could easily be expanded to "Is there a large number of our population that don't appreciate the countryside?". It seems to me the racism part of the article had very little to do with the point except to say when you enter some country pubs people stare at you - this is not because you're asian but because they do it to everyone.
>
> When are journalists going to be told to stop playing on the racism card as surely the biased reporting doesn't help the problem?
>
> after reading the article I'd say that "Is the countryside racist?" is an attempt by the Times Online to make an article controverial by attaching a very loosly relevant headline on it. Not really surprising.
>
> I would say a more accurate title would be "Do the cultural habits of Britain's Asian population prevent them from appreciating the countryside?", which could easily be expanded to "Is there a large number of our population that don't appreciate the countryside?". It seems to me the racism part of the article had very little to do with the point except to say when you enter some country pubs people stare at you - this is not because you're asian but because they do it to everyone.
>
> When are journalists going to be told to stop playing on the racism card as surely the biased reporting doesn't help the problem?
Good point well made. I was going to say something similar. I had a conversation about this yesterday. Someone who knows far more about these things than I do said that he thought it was a cultural thing. Playing the racist card is poor and lazy journalism in my opinion.
In reply to Scarab9: Although it does open with the report conducted by the Countryside agency (i.e. not ethnic minorities) stating that the country-folk are racist. So it does have relevance, and what I got from it was that the writer wanted to try to understand whether this was true of whether it was due to culture.
In reply to Jonno:
How can people say that article was brilliant, FFs the son has difficulty talking to his mother in her language and she doesn't speak English in spite of being here 40 years.
Let us pose the question of me wanting a steak cooked by her with her beliefs, she just wouldn't do it.
Assume she gets knocked down in the street going to the shop and is carted off to hospital, or was taken ill while out in the countryside and could not explain what was wrong due to only English speaking ambulance staff attending.
Her closed mind is the problem, not the countryside that is racist.
BTW, if you had been at the Lofthouse meet at Christmas or several other meets you would have found people of all colours there.
Do you know that there are even Singapore people working on the guidebooks, he seems to speak English quite well, in fact would give some knuckle-draggers a good run for their money.
How is your Welsh?
How can people say that article was brilliant, FFs the son has difficulty talking to his mother in her language and she doesn't speak English in spite of being here 40 years.
Let us pose the question of me wanting a steak cooked by her with her beliefs, she just wouldn't do it.
Assume she gets knocked down in the street going to the shop and is carted off to hospital, or was taken ill while out in the countryside and could not explain what was wrong due to only English speaking ambulance staff attending.
Her closed mind is the problem, not the countryside that is racist.
BTW, if you had been at the Lofthouse meet at Christmas or several other meets you would have found people of all colours there.
Do you know that there are even Singapore people working on the guidebooks, he seems to speak English quite well, in fact would give some knuckle-draggers a good run for their money.
How is your Welsh?
In reply to Jonno:
"it will essentially spend £233 of lottery money on each ethnic minority visitor it attracts over the next three years"
If I were part of an ethnic minority, I'd feel quite warmed by the fact the ethnic majority had decided to do this on my behalf
"it will essentially spend £233 of lottery money on each ethnic minority visitor it attracts over the next three years"
If I were part of an ethnic minority, I'd feel quite warmed by the fact the ethnic majority had decided to do this on my behalf
In reply to speekingleesh: I don't find that anyway. Personally I've seen quite a large increase in the number of ethic minorities in the hills recently, both out on the hill and just enjoying the views from the road side. In fact it's very very regular that I'll see an asian family enjoying a BBQ, music etc at the roadside around Cromlech boulders area.
I guided an Indian lad in a predominanly white group of lads around the Welsh 3000ers yesterday, poor guy barely spoke for 20 hrs he really suffered but finished.
I guided an Indian lad in a predominanly white group of lads around the Welsh 3000ers yesterday, poor guy barely spoke for 20 hrs he really suffered but finished.
In reply to Jonno:
Try the Cairngorms car park! It sometimes seems like you can't move for people of clear South-Asian heritage making their way to the Funicular Railway. At Aonach Mor, the proportion of Asians turning up at ski and board hire appears to far outstrips what you see in the local population. I think the generational divide identified in the article is a correct: the overwhelming majority of these people are in their 20s and 30s.
Winter climbing is definitely an extremely white European dominated activity and this is probably for physiological reasons. I do see a far greater racial mix around here in summer activities but proportions are still low and the only afro-caribean/africans I have ever seen out in wild country here are locals of African descent.
Perhaps it is also worth remembering that although the majority are city-dwellers with ancestors from the plains of India, this is not the only strand of South-Asian heritage evident in Britain. In Skye there is a major hill-race that emulates the activities of a Nepalese runner who visited the island. A century later, competitors sometimes still include the Nepalese runners.
Try the Cairngorms car park! It sometimes seems like you can't move for people of clear South-Asian heritage making their way to the Funicular Railway. At Aonach Mor, the proportion of Asians turning up at ski and board hire appears to far outstrips what you see in the local population. I think the generational divide identified in the article is a correct: the overwhelming majority of these people are in their 20s and 30s.
Winter climbing is definitely an extremely white European dominated activity and this is probably for physiological reasons. I do see a far greater racial mix around here in summer activities but proportions are still low and the only afro-caribean/africans I have ever seen out in wild country here are locals of African descent.
Perhaps it is also worth remembering that although the majority are city-dwellers with ancestors from the plains of India, this is not the only strand of South-Asian heritage evident in Britain. In Skye there is a major hill-race that emulates the activities of a Nepalese runner who visited the island. A century later, competitors sometimes still include the Nepalese runners.
In reply to Al Evans:
And speaking of whom, has anyone heard from Mita recently, I've not seen a post from her for ages now.
> (In reply to Jonno) Just on here there is Nadim and Rahan (BMC Vice Pres) Siddiqui, Mita and many more.
And speaking of whom, has anyone heard from Mita recently, I've not seen a post from her for ages now.
In reply to Jonno: Very poor title, but the rest of the article I found quite endearing. It seemed well thought out and highlighted the fact that something's are just cultural differences, but no different to many city dwellers who have little interest in the countryside.
So nothing to do with racism but interesting.
So nothing to do with racism but interesting.
In reply to Jonno:
I think that the whole idea that "we must get more ethnic minority groups to visit the countryside" is fundamentally rubbish and a waste of time and effort.
The statistics are there for general information, not as a score card!
You can tell anybody that it's there as much as you like, but you can't force them to go. Maybe they don't want to, maybe they don't have time - could be any number of reasons for not going.
As an aside, if his mother has lived here for 40 years and still cannot speak English, maybe it's her and her culture that is the racist for keeping themselves so isolated from the main population? There is no way that my taxes should be used to teach her.
I think that the whole idea that "we must get more ethnic minority groups to visit the countryside" is fundamentally rubbish and a waste of time and effort.
The statistics are there for general information, not as a score card!
You can tell anybody that it's there as much as you like, but you can't force them to go. Maybe they don't want to, maybe they don't have time - could be any number of reasons for not going.
As an aside, if his mother has lived here for 40 years and still cannot speak English, maybe it's her and her culture that is the racist for keeping themselves so isolated from the main population? There is no way that my taxes should be used to teach her.
In reply to LastBoyScout:
It's lottery money, so you have a choice, if it were tax money, you arguably wouldn't really.
I think the concept of being overly welcoming and accommodating to outsiders/minorities is a good thing in general, but is often handled poorly.
> There is no way that my taxes should be used to teach her.
It's lottery money, so you have a choice, if it were tax money, you arguably wouldn't really.
I think the concept of being overly welcoming and accommodating to outsiders/minorities is a good thing in general, but is often handled poorly.
In reply to Jonno:
I thought this was a really sweet article, once you'd got past the deliberately controversial title. I live with an Asian family so I've seen and thought a lot about this sort of thing. There are loads of reasons.
Partly it's knowledge - my father-in-law loves trips to the countryside but he's always asking me (he doesn't like reading in English so guidebooks are a bit out). Then there is the whole family aspect. If you had to invite all your uncles, aunties, cousins, family friends, etc along for a trip, how often do you think you'd get it together to go?
Then there are the traditions mentioned in the piece, of days off being dominated by shopping, visiting relatives and eating. This is well true!
I think that outside of London this is beginning to change. Last time I was walking in the Black Mountains I saw a group of Asian lads power themselves up the final steep bit with shouts of "Allu Akbar!". Thank God Bruce Hooker wasn't about...
I thought this was a really sweet article, once you'd got past the deliberately controversial title. I live with an Asian family so I've seen and thought a lot about this sort of thing. There are loads of reasons.
Partly it's knowledge - my father-in-law loves trips to the countryside but he's always asking me (he doesn't like reading in English so guidebooks are a bit out). Then there is the whole family aspect. If you had to invite all your uncles, aunties, cousins, family friends, etc along for a trip, how often do you think you'd get it together to go?
Then there are the traditions mentioned in the piece, of days off being dominated by shopping, visiting relatives and eating. This is well true!
I think that outside of London this is beginning to change. Last time I was walking in the Black Mountains I saw a group of Asian lads power themselves up the final steep bit with shouts of "Allu Akbar!". Thank God Bruce Hooker wasn't about...
In reply to Jonno: there are all sorts of people we don't see on the hill, but don't realise because they don't have a distinctive appearance. Most of them even speak English.
Point is we are a minority. The number of people who go into the hills as a proportion of the population as a whole is still quite tiny, but they are drawn from a very homogenous wider population, so we don't notice all the people who have gone to sainsburys or football practice or the garden centre on the weekend. Most of the white professional people I know would rather eat their own kidneys than go trailing up a hill or dangle off a 20m gritstone outcrop on the weekend.
In the meantime, you should try Bradgate Park on a Sunday afternoon if you want to see obvious cultural diversity in the countryside.
Point is we are a minority. The number of people who go into the hills as a proportion of the population as a whole is still quite tiny, but they are drawn from a very homogenous wider population, so we don't notice all the people who have gone to sainsburys or football practice or the garden centre on the weekend. Most of the white professional people I know would rather eat their own kidneys than go trailing up a hill or dangle off a 20m gritstone outcrop on the weekend.
In the meantime, you should try Bradgate Park on a Sunday afternoon if you want to see obvious cultural diversity in the countryside.
In reply to Jonno:
One theory would be that people from hot countries who have migrated to Britain, with our shit weather, are less likley to be the sort of people who are that bothered about the outdoors in the first place.
One theory would be that people from hot countries who have migrated to Britain, with our shit weather, are less likley to be the sort of people who are that bothered about the outdoors in the first place.
In reply to seankenny:
>(he doesn't like reading in English so guidebooks are a bit out)
Well teach him to read better, it is probably pride that stops him asking for help.
Does he use a computer, if not teach him to do so then he can read lots of stuff in whatever language he likes such as this;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/languages/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/
Some people don't want to go out in the countryside, I don't want to go to a football match or sit watching TV.
>(he doesn't like reading in English so guidebooks are a bit out)
Well teach him to read better, it is probably pride that stops him asking for help.
Does he use a computer, if not teach him to do so then he can read lots of stuff in whatever language he likes such as this;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/languages/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/
Some people don't want to go out in the countryside, I don't want to go to a football match or sit watching TV.
In reply to Jonno:
Do school parties from the Midlands somehow not count?
>
>
> Whatever...apart from school parties from the Midlands, I've never met a black or Asian climber
>
> Whatever...apart from school parties from the Midlands, I've never met a black or Asian climber
Do school parties from the Midlands somehow not count?
In reply to trevor simpson:
Not just a theory.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/mt90971001224522/
Also work done by the UK's Institute of Naval Medecine, a small portion of which was shown in a TV documnetary a few years ago.
This sort of work has thrown up 2 different effects. One is hereditary factors and the other is the climate in which a person grew up.
Typically, a friend of mine who has 100% Highland ancestors, but grew up in equatorial Africa, suffers extremely badly when exposed to the cold when on the hill.
Not just a theory.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/mt90971001224522/
Also work done by the UK's Institute of Naval Medecine, a small portion of which was shown in a TV documnetary a few years ago.
This sort of work has thrown up 2 different effects. One is hereditary factors and the other is the climate in which a person grew up.
Typically, a friend of mine who has 100% Highland ancestors, but grew up in equatorial Africa, suffers extremely badly when exposed to the cold when on the hill.
In reply to owlart:
She sent me a b/day greeting on Facebook on the 16th.
Al
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> And speaking of whom, has anyone heard from Mita recently, I've not seen a post from her for ages now.
> [...]
>
> And speaking of whom, has anyone heard from Mita recently, I've not seen a post from her for ages now.
She sent me a b/day greeting on Facebook on the 16th.
Al
In reply to Jonno: Great article, thanks for pointing that out - I'm going to send it to all my asian friends that will be sure to chuckle because we can imagine our own mothers making the same remarks!
I'm a sikh (parents from Punjab (north india) who came to the UK late 1960's), and quite identifiably so. I love the countryside; walking climbing, anything. My family background isn't one to go into the outdoors, even when on holiday back in india, and I can fully appreciate where the author comes from wrt cultural backgrounds.
But this doesn't mean ethnic minorities WON'T like the countryside - far from it (as author pointed out).
The grants to promote people going to the national parks are a great idea.
I agree to an extent that people chose to do what they want (eg watch tv, play football etc) but when are people likely to try something new? It's easy to target young people @ schools (school trips, geography lessons etc), but if their parents would rather go on summer holiday to visit relatives in their countries of origin, you're not going to see a family of asians at a campsite sharing experiences, sitting by bonfires and singing folk-songs...describing walking memories with friends, complaining about how hard an uphill section is....whatever it is that makes hillwalkers of alll origins interract - the list is endless.
So I believe actively encouraging people of ethnic backgrounds to get into the countryside is really valuable and will promote an integrated society - similarities lead to relationships, differences breed barriers.
Wrt the countryside being 'racist' - I personally think that, like anywhere, the further away you go from large multi-cultural cities, people aren't used to seeing people from ethnic minorities (yes, we have different coloured skin!!!). I am (made to be) self-conscious when I walk into a bar (or a pub or country inn) and people stare, I get the odd remark here and there and people are surprised when I speak the queen's english...but I don't really care too much (unless I'm in Lancaster's central BNP area...)!
I'm a sikh (parents from Punjab (north india) who came to the UK late 1960's), and quite identifiably so. I love the countryside; walking climbing, anything. My family background isn't one to go into the outdoors, even when on holiday back in india, and I can fully appreciate where the author comes from wrt cultural backgrounds.
But this doesn't mean ethnic minorities WON'T like the countryside - far from it (as author pointed out).
The grants to promote people going to the national parks are a great idea.
I agree to an extent that people chose to do what they want (eg watch tv, play football etc) but when are people likely to try something new? It's easy to target young people @ schools (school trips, geography lessons etc), but if their parents would rather go on summer holiday to visit relatives in their countries of origin, you're not going to see a family of asians at a campsite sharing experiences, sitting by bonfires and singing folk-songs...describing walking memories with friends, complaining about how hard an uphill section is....whatever it is that makes hillwalkers of alll origins interract - the list is endless.
So I believe actively encouraging people of ethnic backgrounds to get into the countryside is really valuable and will promote an integrated society - similarities lead to relationships, differences breed barriers.
Wrt the countryside being 'racist' - I personally think that, like anywhere, the further away you go from large multi-cultural cities, people aren't used to seeing people from ethnic minorities (yes, we have different coloured skin!!!). I am (made to be) self-conscious when I walk into a bar (or a pub or country inn) and people stare, I get the odd remark here and there and people are surprised when I speak the queen's english...but I don't really care too much (unless I'm in Lancaster's central BNP area...)!
In reply to Jonno:
As some people and the article points out, its more of a cultural thing than anything else.
People from different cultures-mainly but not inclusively asian-dont have the same background of escaping to the countryside as many predominantly white cultures do.
To them, the countryside is a place of work and/or pilgimage not one of leisure. Thus (as evidenced in the article by the authors mother's reaction to the intial suggestion) they see no reason to go on a day trip or longer.
If more people from other backgrounds and cultures are to be encouraged to utilise the British countryside in general and National Parks in particular then there has to be more money spent on educating these cultures as to what the British Countryside has to offer in terms of leisure and recreation of whatever form-be it climbing and/or hill walking, or simply a short stroll from the car park and a picnic.
The article suggests that this is happening, albeit slowly and slightly disjointed. Other factors can come into play as well, such as fear of discrimination etc, but they tend to be more localised factors depending upon the visitors background and their location-.eg. some towns and cities are more welcoming than others and vice versa which can influence how they expect to be treated in the countryside.
As some people and the article points out, its more of a cultural thing than anything else.
People from different cultures-mainly but not inclusively asian-dont have the same background of escaping to the countryside as many predominantly white cultures do.
To them, the countryside is a place of work and/or pilgimage not one of leisure. Thus (as evidenced in the article by the authors mother's reaction to the intial suggestion) they see no reason to go on a day trip or longer.
If more people from other backgrounds and cultures are to be encouraged to utilise the British countryside in general and National Parks in particular then there has to be more money spent on educating these cultures as to what the British Countryside has to offer in terms of leisure and recreation of whatever form-be it climbing and/or hill walking, or simply a short stroll from the car park and a picnic.
The article suggests that this is happening, albeit slowly and slightly disjointed. Other factors can come into play as well, such as fear of discrimination etc, but they tend to be more localised factors depending upon the visitors background and their location-.eg. some towns and cities are more welcoming than others and vice versa which can influence how they expect to be treated in the countryside.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
I was thinking more in terms of the person's psychology.
The choice for potential migrant would be whether to sacrifice living in warm weather in a attractive location in order to improve their economic prospects.
The type of person who would make this choice will be less bothered about the outdoors than those who don't.
I was thinking more in terms of the person's psychology.
The choice for potential migrant would be whether to sacrifice living in warm weather in a attractive location in order to improve their economic prospects.
The type of person who would make this choice will be less bothered about the outdoors than those who don't.
In reply to Jonno:
The question in the title is obviously there to catch the eye but the article, I thought, was well balanced and explained why getting out in the hills and National Parks isn't at the top of the 'to do this weekend list' for a lot of the Asian community.
As I see it, the great outdoors is there for anyone who wants to go but other than advertising that it's there, people make up their own minds whether they want to go. If they then experience racism when they go, there are laws to protect them and it can be reported and dealt with.
I was away in The Peak this weekend and saw a few Asian families about walking along the top of Stanage and wandering around Castleton. I've seen a few Afro-Caribean climbers at Stanage too.
As for a million pounds of Lottery money being spent on dragging a few people around the North York Moors to try and spread the word amongst ethnic communities that getting cold and wet in the middle of a wilderness is good fun, I think it would be better spent taking kids from all races out of inner city schools for a couple of days to see what else is out there.
I do despair at the well meaning PC brigade who dreamed up the whole 'countryside is racist' thing though and I do wonder what will come next.
Not enough devout Muslims choosing to have a career as publicans perhaps?
The question in the title is obviously there to catch the eye but the article, I thought, was well balanced and explained why getting out in the hills and National Parks isn't at the top of the 'to do this weekend list' for a lot of the Asian community.
As I see it, the great outdoors is there for anyone who wants to go but other than advertising that it's there, people make up their own minds whether they want to go. If they then experience racism when they go, there are laws to protect them and it can be reported and dealt with.
I was away in The Peak this weekend and saw a few Asian families about walking along the top of Stanage and wandering around Castleton. I've seen a few Afro-Caribean climbers at Stanage too.
As for a million pounds of Lottery money being spent on dragging a few people around the North York Moors to try and spread the word amongst ethnic communities that getting cold and wet in the middle of a wilderness is good fun, I think it would be better spent taking kids from all races out of inner city schools for a couple of days to see what else is out there.
I do despair at the well meaning PC brigade who dreamed up the whole 'countryside is racist' thing though and I do wonder what will come next.
Not enough devout Muslims choosing to have a career as publicans perhaps?
In reply to trevor simpson:
I never knew that foreigners were so one dimensional but one lives and learns
> (In reply to Jim Fraser)
>
> I was thinking more in terms of the person's psychology.
>
> The choice for potential migrant would be whether to sacrifice living in warm weather in a attractive location in order to improve their economic prospects.
> The type of person who would make this choice will be less bothered about the outdoors than those who don't.
>
> I was thinking more in terms of the person's psychology.
>
> The choice for potential migrant would be whether to sacrifice living in warm weather in a attractive location in order to improve their economic prospects.
> The type of person who would make this choice will be less bothered about the outdoors than those who don't.
I never knew that foreigners were so one dimensional but one lives and learns
In reply to seankenny:
I think these days you're supposed to report them to Special Branch?
> (In reply to Jonno)
> I saw a group of Asian lads power themselves up the final steep bit with shouts of "Allu Akbar!".
I think these days you're supposed to report them to Special Branch?
In reply to trevor simpson:
I only do the lottery once in a blue moon, so fair enough.
I think the concept of encouraging everyone into the countryside is a good thing - I just don't really agree with the concept of targetting particular ethnic groups.
Although the cynical part of me thinks it's crowded enough already...
I only do the lottery once in a blue moon, so fair enough.
I think the concept of encouraging everyone into the countryside is a good thing - I just don't really agree with the concept of targetting particular ethnic groups.
Although the cynical part of me thinks it's crowded enough already...
In reply to Jonno:
http://img.ukclimbing.com/i/52089.jpg
http://img.ukclimbing.com/i/3698.jpg
http://img.ukclimbing.com/i/97988.jpg
http://img.ukclimbing.com/i/71963.jpg
http://img.ukclimbing.com/i/13259.jpg
Just a few off here who climb a bit.
http://img.ukclimbing.com/i/52089.jpg
http://img.ukclimbing.com/i/3698.jpg
http://img.ukclimbing.com/i/97988.jpg
http://img.ukclimbing.com/i/71963.jpg
http://img.ukclimbing.com/i/13259.jpg
Just a few off here who climb a bit.
> Not enough devout Muslims choosing to have a career as publicans perhaps?
Haha brilliant!
I reckon this 'Non-white people don't do the outdoors thing' is a load of rubbish! I live in Leicester which is one of the most culturally diverse places in the country, and as somebody else said you can't move for minority groups in Bradgate Park on a Sunday. However I would say that it's true that there aren't many asian or african outdoors-enthusiasts out there, and you don't often see them (I never have) in the hills in Wales or Scotland either. This is probably just because some cultures don't encourage an outdoorsy attitude as the norm.
In my university climbing club all 70-odd members are white with the exception of one!
In reply to Mike Highbury:
You should put more effort into it, or perhaps start on something simpler?
(It goes without saying that people will have migrated to this country for a wide range of different reasons and from vastly different circumstances)
> one lives and learns
You should put more effort into it, or perhaps start on something simpler?
(It goes without saying that people will have migrated to this country for a wide range of different reasons and from vastly different circumstances)
In reply to Jonno:
I think the countryside is instituionally racist, and cliffs and crags particularly so. They go out of their way to make it difficult for people like me to climb them. Nothing to do with my mediocre skills or increasing girth, oh no...
I think the countryside is instituionally racist, and cliffs and crags particularly so. They go out of their way to make it difficult for people like me to climb them. Nothing to do with my mediocre skills or increasing girth, oh no...
In reply to Masood:
Too many good curries and nan breads that mate
And cake of course.
Family Yorksire meet in the school summer holidays may be held if interested.
Too many good curries and nan breads that mate
And cake of course.
Family Yorksire meet in the school summer holidays may be held if interested.
In reply to sutty: Talking of good curries - spice of Llanberis... yum...
In reply to Masood:
Aha! Being half Polish is obviously my problem then, nothing to do with having skills and a physique similar to your good self!
Mind you, Left Unconquerable didn't seem to mind being tickled by a cute Polish lass yesterday, she cruised it and could've stopped for a picnic half way up!
> (In reply to Jonno)
>
> I think the countryside is instituionally racist, and cliffs and crags particularly so. They go out of their way to make it difficult for people like me to climb them. Nothing to do with my mediocre skills or increasing girth, oh no...
>
>
>
> I think the countryside is instituionally racist, and cliffs and crags particularly so. They go out of their way to make it difficult for people like me to climb them. Nothing to do with my mediocre skills or increasing girth, oh no...
>
>
Aha! Being half Polish is obviously my problem then, nothing to do with having skills and a physique similar to your good self!
Mind you, Left Unconquerable didn't seem to mind being tickled by a cute Polish lass yesterday, she cruised it and could've stopped for a picnic half way up!
In reply to Jonno:
Right, I have read the article. The answer is in the first paragraph:
"like many immigrant Asian families, we have no tradition of leisure in the conventional sense. I recall only three outings as a child that weren’t visits to relatives’ houses. "
Some back-up from later in the article:
"And here, perhaps, is one reason why you don’t see many Punjabis trekking over England’s green and pleasant land: they have a fundamentally utilitarian view of the environment. "
"Meanwhile, writer Hanif Kureishi has made the important argument that traditional English country pursuits simply do not appeal to certain ethnic groups, pointing out that his family would never have gone trekking in the countryside because it was considered demeaning for middle-class Indians “to traipse about like peasants”. "
Do Asians in their home countries go and enjoy the countryside for the countryside's sake? I have never seen evidence of this during several extended trips to Indonesia. The author could perhaps have explored this question a bit more.
Right, I have read the article. The answer is in the first paragraph:
"like many immigrant Asian families, we have no tradition of leisure in the conventional sense. I recall only three outings as a child that weren’t visits to relatives’ houses. "
Some back-up from later in the article:
"And here, perhaps, is one reason why you don’t see many Punjabis trekking over England’s green and pleasant land: they have a fundamentally utilitarian view of the environment. "
"Meanwhile, writer Hanif Kureishi has made the important argument that traditional English country pursuits simply do not appeal to certain ethnic groups, pointing out that his family would never have gone trekking in the countryside because it was considered demeaning for middle-class Indians “to traipse about like peasants”. "
Do Asians in their home countries go and enjoy the countryside for the countryside's sake? I have never seen evidence of this during several extended trips to Indonesia. The author could perhaps have explored this question a bit more.
In reply to teflonpete:
Ah, but as a neanderthal ex-colleague with overtly racist views and a huge crush on Shilpa Shetty explained when we pointed out his hypocrisy "But she's a bird, innit."
> (In reply to Masood)
> [...]
> Mind you, Left Unconquerable didn't seem to mind being tickled by a cute Polish lass yesterday,
> [...]
> Mind you, Left Unconquerable didn't seem to mind being tickled by a cute Polish lass yesterday,
Ah, but as a neanderthal ex-colleague with overtly racist views and a huge crush on Shilpa Shetty explained when we pointed out his hypocrisy "But she's a bird, innit."
In reply to sutty:
Definitely! Are we being graced with your presence this weekend???
> (In reply to Masood)
> Family Yorksire meet in the school summer holidays may be held if interested.
> Family Yorksire meet in the school summer holidays may be held if interested.
Definitely! Are we being graced with your presence this weekend???
In reply to Jonno: Don't see too many asian lottery winners either for that matter. Does that mean the lottery is racist?
In reply to Masood:
Although I find it hard to believe you could be male, straight and not have a crush on Shilpa Shetty.
> Ah, but as a neanderthal ex-colleague with overtly racist views and a huge crush on Shilpa Shetty explained when we pointed out his hypocrisy "But she's a bird, innit."
Although I find it hard to believe you could be male, straight and not have a crush on Shilpa Shetty.
In reply to Jonno:
Is noticing people of a different racial background implicitly racist. The country side is there for anyone to access if and when they want to, if a Black person wants to go to the Lakes they can. I sometimes think the pc gang are racists in that they see problems that don`t actually exist.
Is noticing people of a different racial background implicitly racist. The country side is there for anyone to access if and when they want to, if a Black person wants to go to the Lakes they can. I sometimes think the pc gang are racists in that they see problems that don`t actually exist.
In reply to J1234: Is noticing such a mythical creature as the "pc gang" implicitly discriminatory
In reply to MJH: hmmmm
In reply to rowen root:
was the first lotto winner not asian?
the article reminded me of that great quote on another thread about the posters "tiger repelling stone" he's never been attaked by a tiger so it must work!
did CMD arete last year and from the top of nevis all the way down the tourist path was the largest party of asians i think i've ever seen. chatted to afew (i'm always talking to strangers, i can't help myself) and apparently they'd done a charity walk a few weeks before and were suprosed how much fun walking in the country actually was so their leader suggested ben nevis for their second hill. they seemed to be having a great old time
was the first lotto winner not asian?
the article reminded me of that great quote on another thread about the posters "tiger repelling stone" he's never been attaked by a tiger so it must work!
did CMD arete last year and from the top of nevis all the way down the tourist path was the largest party of asians i think i've ever seen. chatted to afew (i'm always talking to strangers, i can't help myself) and apparently they'd done a charity walk a few weeks before and were suprosed how much fun walking in the country actually was so their leader suggested ben nevis for their second hill. they seemed to be having a great old time
In reply to TobyA:
Not really my type (and I'm surely not her type either). Now Meera Syal on the other hand...
> Although I find it hard to believe you could be male, straight and not have a crush on Shilpa Shetty.
Not really my type (and I'm surely not her type either). Now Meera Syal on the other hand...
In reply to Masood:
Cornwall? No, too far for a weekend. 1000 mile round trip and 8 hours each way. I forecast Flika having to stop overnight on the way back as not driven that sort of distance before.
Cornwall? No, too far for a weekend. 1000 mile round trip and 8 hours each way. I forecast Flika having to stop overnight on the way back as not driven that sort of distance before.
In reply to seankenny:
Were there any women with them? How'd they manage in burkhas? Must be a bit of a handicap on the steep bits.
Having said that, some of the best walkers I've ever seen were muslims, carrying 40 kgs up the hillside with just a bit of horse-hair rope to hold the load and bare-foot. They didn't shout any religious stuff though, they had islam imposed on them by force so didn't share the enthusiasm of your nutters.
> I saw a group of Asian lads power themselves up the final steep bit with shouts of "Allu Akbar!". Thank God Bruce Hooker wasn't about...
Were there any women with them? How'd they manage in burkhas? Must be a bit of a handicap on the steep bits.
Having said that, some of the best walkers I've ever seen were muslims, carrying 40 kgs up the hillside with just a bit of horse-hair rope to hold the load and bare-foot. They didn't shout any religious stuff though, they had islam imposed on them by force so didn't share the enthusiasm of your nutters.
In reply to Masood:
its curious how exceptions can always be made.
i was always confused by one of the more halfwitted racists i had the displeaure of meeting thought he was going to go for his after pub curry after kicking all the foreigner types out.
> Ah, but as a neanderthal ex-colleague with overtly racist views and a huge crush on Shilpa Shetty explained when we pointed out his hypocrisy "But she's a bird, innit."
its curious how exceptions can always be made.
i was always confused by one of the more halfwitted racists i had the displeaure of meeting thought he was going to go for his after pub curry after kicking all the foreigner types out.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
A few weeks ago when it was really hot, I went out running and was just coming over the brow of a reasonably steep hill, when I saw an asian family coming up the other way.
The bloke had shorts and a sleeveless vest on, clearly worked-out a lot, and was wearing western style sports gear. His apparent wife had full, black, head-to toe burkha.
If felt really sorry for her, but she probably felt the same for me, sweating, gasping and groaning.
> Were there any women with them? How'd they manage in burkhas? Must be a bit of a handicap on the steep bits.
A few weeks ago when it was really hot, I went out running and was just coming over the brow of a reasonably steep hill, when I saw an asian family coming up the other way.
The bloke had shorts and a sleeveless vest on, clearly worked-out a lot, and was wearing western style sports gear. His apparent wife had full, black, head-to toe burkha.
If felt really sorry for her, but she probably felt the same for me, sweating, gasping and groaning.
In reply to trevor simpson: on the beach in senegal you regularly see muslim girls playing in the sea in head-to-toe burkhas.
In reply to Jonno:
I'm a mixed race climber, and i been climbing for two years and i have never been made to feel unwelcome by anyone in the countryside or fellow climbers. i think it has nothing to do with the countryside racist. I'm not saying there isn't any racist people in the counrtyside by i haven't meet any at least i don't think i have lol.
I'm a mixed race climber, and i been climbing for two years and i have never been made to feel unwelcome by anyone in the countryside or fellow climbers. i think it has nothing to do with the countryside racist. I'm not saying there isn't any racist people in the counrtyside by i haven't meet any at least i don't think i have lol.
In reply to Jonno:I once read something about people from ethnic minorities being made to feel unwelcome in the Lake District,or being made to feel uncomfortable by people turning and staring when people walk into shops, and i can remember a few people acting a bit weirdly around my friend who's half Indian and his mum who is Indian when we went out for a pub meal one time in the lake district,a couple of blokes standing with pints and glancing over occasionally and looking uncomfortable, i don't know how accurate the article i read was though, or what most people who aren't white experiance when they're in the Lake District. Though saying that in a shop in Cockermouth last xmas or the xmas before there was a lad in the queue also acting weirdly about being served by an asian lady who was behiend the counter, i don't know how representative the article or the two occasions i noticed are of how most people are in the Lake District however. As a white person it's a bit difficult to know how racist the countryside is.
Cheers
Tim
Cheers
Tim
In reply to Timmd:
"when we went out for a pub meal one time in the lake district,a couple of blokes standing with pints and glancing over occasionally and looking uncomfortable, "
Have you ever been to the FlyingDutchman in Summerbridge below Brimham?
I had the same experience with Blade...
"when we went out for a pub meal one time in the lake district,a couple of blokes standing with pints and glancing over occasionally and looking uncomfortable, "
Have you ever been to the FlyingDutchman in Summerbridge below Brimham?
I had the same experience with Blade...
In reply to Timmd:
I once read something about people from England being made to feel unwelcome in Wales,or being made to feel uncomfortable by people turning and staring when people walk into shops, and i can remember a few people acting a bit weirdly around my friend who's half English and his mum who is English when we went out for a pub meal one time in Wales,a couple of blokes standing with pints and glancing over occasionally and looking uncomfortable, i don't know how accurate the article i read was though, or what most people who aren't Welsh experiance when they're in Wales. Though saying that in a shop in Capel Curig last xmas or the xmas before there was a lad in the queue also acting weirdly about being served by a welsh lady who was behiend the counter, i don't know how representative the article or the two occasions i noticed are of how most people are in Wales however. As an English person it's not difficult to know how racist the welsh can be.
Cheers
Beds
Runs and hides
> (In reply to Jonno)
I once read something about people from England being made to feel unwelcome in Wales,or being made to feel uncomfortable by people turning and staring when people walk into shops, and i can remember a few people acting a bit weirdly around my friend who's half English and his mum who is English when we went out for a pub meal one time in Wales,a couple of blokes standing with pints and glancing over occasionally and looking uncomfortable, i don't know how accurate the article i read was though, or what most people who aren't Welsh experiance when they're in Wales. Though saying that in a shop in Capel Curig last xmas or the xmas before there was a lad in the queue also acting weirdly about being served by a welsh lady who was behiend the counter, i don't know how representative the article or the two occasions i noticed are of how most people are in Wales however. As an English person it's not difficult to know how racist the welsh can be.
Cheers
Beds
Runs and hides
In reply to Jonno:
It doesn't have to come back to racism, it can be just when country people see someone who's clearly not "local"... When I was young and had long hair I used to get this sort of thing in the country towns, I didn't realise it completely until returning many years later I noticed how friendly and relaxed people were...
Don't look for racism everywhere.
It doesn't have to come back to racism, it can be just when country people see someone who's clearly not "local"... When I was young and had long hair I used to get this sort of thing in the country towns, I didn't realise it completely until returning many years later I noticed how friendly and relaxed people were...
Don't look for racism everywhere.
In reply to sutty:
Sutty this is really offensive and patronising mate.
My father-in-law is just one of those guys who doesn't like reading - there are plenty of them - and the fact it's in English is probably a slight barrier. Before you jump to conclusions, he is totally fluent, has lived here for decades and manages perfectly well. My point was that without the broader culture of visiting the outdoors it's difficult to get information.
Presuming that he's too proud to be bothered to learn is out of order.
> (In reply to seankenny)
>
> >(he doesn't like reading in English so guidebooks are a bit out)
>
> Well teach him to read better, it is probably pride that stops him asking for help.
>
> >(he doesn't like reading in English so guidebooks are a bit out)
>
> Well teach him to read better, it is probably pride that stops him asking for help.
Sutty this is really offensive and patronising mate.
My father-in-law is just one of those guys who doesn't like reading - there are plenty of them - and the fact it's in English is probably a slight barrier. Before you jump to conclusions, he is totally fluent, has lived here for decades and manages perfectly well. My point was that without the broader culture of visiting the outdoors it's difficult to get information.
Presuming that he's too proud to be bothered to learn is out of order.
In reply to Nic: Aren't you guys forgetting the gorgeous Madhuri Dixit?
In reply to Jonno: Red necks in the countryside...really? Wales in the 80's...shocking.
In reply to seankenny:
>Presuming that he's too proud to be bothered to learn is out of order.
I said; it is probably pride that stops him asking for help.
Now maybe it is and maybe it isn't, I did not presume but wondered out loud.
Have you actually asked him, maybe you should, and even English people with top skills cannot read you know;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/mar/02/socialexclusion.adultliteracy
>Presuming that he's too proud to be bothered to learn is out of order.
I said; it is probably pride that stops him asking for help.
Now maybe it is and maybe it isn't, I did not presume but wondered out loud.
Have you actually asked him, maybe you should, and even English people with top skills cannot read you know;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/mar/02/socialexclusion.adultliteracy
In reply to sutty: I suspect in your case it's probably pride that stops you from a quick apology and a quiet retreat.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
>
I'm not. I don't think people from ethnic minorities are dissuaded from coming into the countryside by latent racism within the indigenous population or outdoor activists who use the countryside.
It's a cultural thing.Afro Caribs,Asian,Chinese persons etc don't do The Great Outdoors. Perhaps they never will ?
>
>
> Don't look for racism everywhere.>>.
> Don't look for racism everywhere.>>.
I'm not. I don't think people from ethnic minorities are dissuaded from coming into the countryside by latent racism within the indigenous population or outdoor activists who use the countryside.
It's a cultural thing.Afro Caribs,Asian,Chinese persons etc don't do The Great Outdoors. Perhaps they never will ?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:''It doesn't have to come back to racism, it can be just when country people see someone who's clearly not "local"... When I was young and had long hair I used to get this sort of thing in the country towns, I didn't realise it completely until returning many years later I noticed how friendly and relaxed people were...
Don't look for racism everywhere.
PS. I forgot to add that when I returned I had shorter hair.''
If it was many years later maybe you were obviously not a youth and thought of as less likely to cause trouble? A friend of mine when i was a teenager said that people were nicer to him after he had his long hair which went most of the way down his back cut shorter, and he was still about 16 or 17 and local to Sheffield. Maybe it's something about long hair for some people?
It's true though about somebody not being local sometimes being enough to make people act funnily with people, but i wasn't particularly looking for racism on the couple of occasions i've noticed it in the Lake District, it just happened to be happening in front of me, or it appeared to be (because i've had the occasional person be funny with me for being a tourist,but most people seem friendly in the Lake District.)
In the pub there were other people who were probably fairly obviously not local as well as my friend and his mum, because i can often identify students walking around Sheffield when they first arrive each year (unless some people are just the same age as other students and have reacently moved to Sheffield), from the way they look about themselves and seem to be finding thier way about, and thier general vibe of not having seen it all before, like people in villages and small towns can probably identify me or other tourists in the same way, and it was only my mate and his mum who were making the two guys feel uncomfortable, and being made to feel a little bit uncomfortable themselves. I guess the difference in skin colour could possibly have marked them out as being definately different from the locals, but it was still the difference in skin colour which they seemed to have a problem with.
Hopefully it's just fear of difference though more than prejudice about certain groups, and people will chill out about it eventually. I know that fear can often come from missconceptions or prejudice, but i think it can sometimes come from lack of exposre as well, and i guess it's not always just to do with race that people can be unnerved by difference. I think i see more people who are asian etc going round the Peak District than i did when i was growing up, especially in bits that are close to the west of Sheffield.
Cheers
Tim
Don't look for racism everywhere.
PS. I forgot to add that when I returned I had shorter hair.''
If it was many years later maybe you were obviously not a youth and thought of as less likely to cause trouble? A friend of mine when i was a teenager said that people were nicer to him after he had his long hair which went most of the way down his back cut shorter, and he was still about 16 or 17 and local to Sheffield. Maybe it's something about long hair for some people?
It's true though about somebody not being local sometimes being enough to make people act funnily with people, but i wasn't particularly looking for racism on the couple of occasions i've noticed it in the Lake District, it just happened to be happening in front of me, or it appeared to be (because i've had the occasional person be funny with me for being a tourist,but most people seem friendly in the Lake District.)
In the pub there were other people who were probably fairly obviously not local as well as my friend and his mum, because i can often identify students walking around Sheffield when they first arrive each year (unless some people are just the same age as other students and have reacently moved to Sheffield), from the way they look about themselves and seem to be finding thier way about, and thier general vibe of not having seen it all before, like people in villages and small towns can probably identify me or other tourists in the same way, and it was only my mate and his mum who were making the two guys feel uncomfortable, and being made to feel a little bit uncomfortable themselves. I guess the difference in skin colour could possibly have marked them out as being definately different from the locals, but it was still the difference in skin colour which they seemed to have a problem with.
Hopefully it's just fear of difference though more than prejudice about certain groups, and people will chill out about it eventually. I know that fear can often come from missconceptions or prejudice, but i think it can sometimes come from lack of exposre as well, and i guess it's not always just to do with race that people can be unnerved by difference. I think i see more people who are asian etc going round the Peak District than i did when i was growing up, especially in bits that are close to the west of Sheffield.
Cheers
Tim
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