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jetboil criticisms please?

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 bivy spirit 27 Jun 2009
anybody got anything bad to say about the jetboil before i shell out my hard earned?
i'm so used to the reliability of my old faithful trangia that i've been dragging my heels on this one for quite some time, but nobody seems to have a bad word to say about the jetboil, try though i might to find the criticisms.
uses: high scottish bivying, mostly 2 day solo trips.

small pack size, low fuel costs/ efficiency plus speed of boil are the big factors in the decision.
anyone want to talk me out of buying?
d.
 whispering nic 27 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit: nah, all good.
Removed User 27 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit: Heavy?
 David Hooper 27 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:
Dont bother with piezo ignition - weak point.
 ritid 27 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit: good kit if you have the space, a bit to bulky for me though...i prefer pocket rocket and foil wind break
 Reach>Talent 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:
Bad things about the jet boil:

- If the neoprene catches fire you have to lob your dinner out of the tent.
- The piezo ignition will break if you don't look after it (don't let it bump around inside the mug when transporting it).
- It isn't very light.

On the other hand it is pretty good at doing what it was designed for. I nearly brought one for myself but didn't as the pan size seemed restrictive (before the GCS was available). I ended up buying a lightweight Ti pan to go with my pocket rocket instead.
 Padraig 28 Jun 2009
In reply to David Hooper:
> (In reply to bivy spirit)
> Dont bother with piezo ignition - weak point.

It certainly is an issue at altitude!
 Arjen 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:

Heavier, bigger and more expensive than other solutions.
Waste of money, IMHO.

The fuel efficiency is never, ever going to pay out on a 2d solo trip- you would only use a tiny gas canister if you were using the Most Inefficient Stove Known to Men and still not finish it two days...
The bloody thing is attached to the burner too, so cleaning isn't as easy as a separate pot is...

I'd still vote for a small normal stove and a separate pot...
OP bivy spirit 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:

munch munch.... aye this is all good for making me think again...

am busy reading these with interest while sneaking a bowl of chicken, noodle and garlic mushroom salad behind my monitor while the boss isn't watching...

and wondering about the pocket rocket too... munch... sure it's super light and mini but doesn't have that integral design appeal of the jetboil's cup. hmmmmmm!

well i'm not going to be any higher than the ben in the near future so altitude's not much of a problem piezo wise and i always carry 2 lighters anyway. weight? it's not *so* heavy and the pack size (when you factor in pans etc) is part of the big attraction...
no danger of me having to throw it out of the tent if the cup catches fire because i'll be in the bivy bag and it will be outside already.

i continue to ponder... cheers for all comments =)
 Gazleah 28 Jun 2009
i have the group cooking set and the solo and both are brilliant. 8 hot dogs, 30 seconds. sorted
OP bivy spirit 28 Jun 2009
In reply to Arjen:

but yeah i hear ye:
what's the deal though? surely i can leave the canister attached till next time and use it up? forgive my ignorance, i don't work with anything other than the meths burners so i'm not sure of the pros and cons when it comes to that side of it...
am i buggered if i only use part of a canister eg: then have to throw it away?
 Stuzz 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:

The canisters it uses reseal themselves when unscrewed so you can dismantle the stove to carry/ store it then put it back together for use. same with most modern stoves.

Hope that helps.
OP bivy spirit 28 Jun 2009
In reply to Stuzz:

ah in that case using a portion of a can per trip should be no big deal... still efficient even for a solo roamer such as myself. hmmm.

munch... (now onto bakewell tarts- sod the boss)

ok, cheers for your words of wisdom folks =)
 sdavies141 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit: Jet boil are a top notch peice of kit, but can I recomend the following two options as food for thought ..... MSR Reactor, sklightly bigger but maaybe more versitile, the whole thing packs inside inside the pot. or a MSR pocket rocket with a primus pan/kettle (or MSR Titan kettle ... v. expensive tho) with a wind shield, this will also pack inside the pan.

Just my opinion
 FrankBooth 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:
i went for a Coleman F1 Lite and an Alpkit MyTiMug combo - stove, canister, lighter and (cut-down) spoon all fit into the mug, and it all weight very little
 jonnie3430 28 Jun 2009
In reply to Arjen:
> (In reply to bivy spirit)

> The bloody thing is attached to the burner too, so cleaning isn't as easy as a separate pot is...
>

It's not attached to the burner, just to the "flux ring," heat transferrer. There is a twist loc to attach it to the burner while cooking though so it doesn't fall off..

I have used my jet boil for the last two years

Minuses- you only get full performance when the gas canister is more than a quarter (conservative,) full, so I have lots of threequarter full canisters to use on my old stove...

In wind the heat transferrer loses a lot of heat and it takes longer to boil

The high pot takes a 125gm gas cartridge (which I have never used for ecoonomy,) while a more useful wider pot would take a 230gm cartridge.

Pexio ignition usually works fine but a spare lighter is needed.

Pluses- Light, fast, simple, whole thing will be boiling before others have
put their stoves together and well before those with petrol stoves have burn't their tent down.

In summary, I use my jetboil when I want something light and simple for boiling water, which it does fast and economically. For longer trips where cooking is needed or where weight isn't so much of an issue, I use a pan and stove set.

If I could choose again, I would look closely at the MSR Reactor, which a friend was using without dramas at 5200m, is a wider pot and fits a 230gm cartridge inside. If you choose the pocket rocket, which quite a few friends love, I suggest a pot with heat exchanger built in ( http://www.rawoutdoors.co.uk/Models.aspx?ModelID=2907 ) which will make it even more rapid and economical. Sorry for spouting so much keich.
 jas wood 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:
Awesome piece of kit and does what i want it for (paste soups etc) cannot say it is heavy or bulky in my opinion and the cup detaches so you DONT have to wash your full stove to clean the pot like suggested earlier.
seems like lots of serious climbers use them and once you have one all you need to have is a spoon and your done.
had no problem with ignition yet.

jas
 cliff shasby 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit: hi,jetboil and similar seem very popular these days and im not sure why,maybe im missing something.
after years of using gas stoves of all types,pocket rocket,windpro etc,i got fed up with having bags full of gas canisters with a bit left in,i didnt want to take them with me because the pressure was too low,which made them useless in the cold and it meant more canisters to carry on the hill,and it just seems such a waste.
so i bought an optimus nova+,not super light i know,but i take only what fuel i need,boil times are very good,i can use up every last drop of fuel,not affected by cold,and unlike the msr pump stoves its controllable,reliable and is mess free.

cliff
 marsbar 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit: You could get a gas thingie for your trangia.
 thin bob 28 Jun 2009
In reply to marsbar:
absolutely. I've got one & theyre great. got a spare one as well [don't ask]
Deejay 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:

Biggest problem is the lack of stability as it stands on the gas cartridge. You can purchase a stabilising unit though.

Next problem - don't fill to level then put the ratpack in - it boils over, lol. Place the ratpack in first then fill to level.

So far I've never had a problem with the piezo - but the service kit contains a spare anyway.

Problem in draughts? Most stoves suffers unless you shield it.

You can get a hanging kit too for more vertical campsites.

Good kit, well worth the cash. Like anything else look after it.

Shop around for bargains. When I got mine simplyscuba were the cheapest, and included free delivery. Not sure what the price is now.

DJ
OP bivy spirit 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:

wow just out my bed after the run of night shifts and am pondering all these points over my first cup of coffee. well gang: you've certainly given me plenty of food for thought here and while most of what's been said confirms my expectations in terms of pros and cons, it certainly throws up a couple of things that i hadn't considered.

on balance i think i'm still pretty much sold, given my requirements, but i'm definitely going to look at some of the suggested alternatives again before i spend the cash, having read through your comments.

my natural scottish tendency towards tightness is definitely screaming at me about the waste of part-used canisters for a start (you know what they say about wire being invented by two scotsmen fighting over a penny, eh?)...

many options remain off the cards because i quite simply don't want to the pack size of pans if i can avoid it or, as above, i'd probably just convert the trangia to gas and keep things simple. but on the basis of some of the comments i really might have to rethink that logic anyway. in recent months though pack size has become considerably more of a sticking point than weight. speed and efficiency too... hmmmm! ok.

well i'm away north for a couple of days and the wages are in when i get back so i'll take to the shops for a more serious look at some of the other gas stoves and try to make my mind up.

cheers to all for taking the time to share your thoughts- much appreciated!
 winhill 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:
>
> small pack size, low fuel costs/ efficiency plus speed of boil are the big factors in the decision.
> anyone want to talk me out of buying?

It isn't a small pack size, it doesn't really lower your fuel cost, the efficiency is dubious and it only boils a small amount of water which lots of other stoves can match or may be a few seconds longer.

It is much heavier than a lightweight system.

If you need a hanging stove then it has some advantages.

OP bivy spirit 28 Jun 2009
In reply to winhill:

pack size wise the vertical cup is surely easier than a pan though... true enough the actual burner isn't exactly micro compared to many but i suppose it's the cup and the simple, integrated nature of the design that attracts me in this respect...

i'm interested in your suggestion that the efficiency is dubious- the speed and efficiency is the one thing that most others seem to agree on after all. do you reckon the efficiency claims are over hyped?

i do certainly need to look at the lightweight alternatives too though and this will be the main thrust of my investigations when i hit the shops.
 IainMunro 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:

Igniter is crap, it doesn't offer as much flexibility as a stove and pot (only really good for "just add water" meals or making multiple cups of tea) but other than that it's a good piece of kit!

Iain
 Arjen 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:

Sorry, I was wrong about the detachablity of the thing.

However, I still see it as false economy, as other options are just lighter, simpler and cheaper. Does a pocket rocket fit in one of these alpkit mugs?

And the whole thing weighs the same as a (1L) pot and an MSR windpro, which is a whole lot more stable- I really don't see why they get away with the 'lightweight' stamp, as it clearly isn't!
Sure, the fuel economy is better, but even if it saves you 30%, would that make a large difference to you? For me, it wouldn't...
In reply to bivy spirit:

was thinking about one but not sure about the extra bulk and like yourself, only doing 2 day ish trips so fuel saving not a big issue. been quite happy with my homemade windbreak in speeding up boil times.
 winhill 28 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:
> (In reply to winhill)

> do you reckon the efficiency claims are over hyped?

Absolutely.

But then it's not just the efficiency that is over hyped, the whole concept is.

The best feature is its' use as a hanging stove, then the neoprene cosy, then er, that's it.

It may be quick to boil 500ml but then so is any decent gas stove, how much quicker is it? Less than ten seconds over 90 seconds ish.

Look at the claims on this site, complete bullshit if ever there was some:

http://www.outdoorgb.com/p/jetboil_outdoor_cooking_system/?gclid=CI6v7uDurZ...

"Fuel Efficient

The Jetboil FluxRing yields fuel efficiencies of over 80% compared with the 30-40% typical of standard camping stoves and cookware. A single 100-gram Jetpower canister boils 12 litres of water, saving you money, space and time. The Jetboil will boil 500ml of water in just 2 minutes, approximately half the time of a standard camping stove."

What a 'standard camping stove' is left to your imagination but not many lightweight stoves take 8 minutes to boil 1litre of water.(BTW the 2 minutes they quote make it slower not faster than other gas stoves).

BTW These bullshitters describe it as 'ultralight' even though it weighs double the lightweight ones.

I remember the US distributor of Primus describing the new ETA as 100% efficient, luckily we have laws against these sort of claims.

JetBoil is a marketing success, which offers, for most users, a neoprene tea cosy.

It's the Outdoor Industry's Ploughman's Lunch.
 TobyA 29 Jun 2009
In reply to winhill: The jetboil melts snow more efficiently than my old Pocket Rocket/Primus 'alu trail kettle' combo. Seems more efficient in most other conditions as well.
 winhill 29 Jun 2009
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to winhill) The jetboil melts snow more efficiently than my old Pocket Rocket/Primus 'alu trail kettle' combo. Seems more efficient in most other conditions as well.

When you say efficently, do you mean it is quicker, or it uses less gas?
Anglesey Pete 29 Jun 2009
In reply to winhill:
> JetBoil is a marketing success, which offers, for most users, a neoprene tea cosy.
>
> It's the Outdoor Industry's Ploughman's Lunch.

I'm guessing you're not a fan of Jetboil on facebook then?
 Reach>Talent 29 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:
One more point on the ignitor.
Like most piezo units it won't work if the insulation is cracked, I've now seen 3 jetboils where the igniter had 'failed for no reason' and they all had a very fine hairline crack half way up the ceramic insulation which was stopping it sparking in the right place. Possibly putting a small bit of cloth inside the pot to stop the cylinder bumping around would be a good plan.
 Murderous_Crow 29 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit: I have an MSR Whisperlite, which is absolutely brilliant. Like you I only do short trips and want a small pack, so I bought a 300-odd ml Sigg fuel bottle and a MSR titanium kettle/mug thingy. The whole thing works pretty well, and the fuel is easy to come by. Just a thought. It's never going to be as light as a gas stove, but it's not bad, and you use about a thimble of fuel to do a full mug of water.
stupot 29 Jun 2009
> The Jetboil FluxRing yields fuel efficiencies of over 80% compared with the 30-40% typical of standard camping stoves and cookware. A single 100-gram Jetpower canister boils 12 litres of water, saving you money, space and time. The Jetboil will boil 500ml of water in just 2 minutes, approximately half the time of a standard camping stove."
>

Some facts on efficiency:

1) A stove that was 100% efficient would use 9g gas to boil 1 litre water (I can post the maths if anyone is really interested).
So a 100% efficient stove could only boil 11 litres of water from 100g gas. 12 litres is just not possible.

2) A pocket rocket turned up full blast on a 'mug' style pot (10cm dia) will use at least 20g gas - an efficiency of 45%

3) Turn the flame down just a little and use a wider pot (13cm dia) and the gas used will be less than 15g per litre boiled - an efficiency of at least 60%, and not much less than the jetboil claimed 80%

In conclusion, the extra weight of jetboil and other 'high' efficiency systems never justify the extra weight on short solo trips, eg using a single 250g canister.
 TobyA 29 Jun 2009
In reply to winhill: Probably both. Snow melting is a hassle as you are continually having to push the snow in to the container and it soaks up what water you have 'made'. It is easy to burn the pot if you get air between the base of the pan and then snow in it. The jetboil seems to have a better spread of heat on the base and probably the neoprene keeps the sides warmer making the snow in the mug fall down towards the heat better than with an uninsulated pot.
 jezmartin 29 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit: none .. fantastic piece of kit ..
 Mr-Cowdrey 29 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:
have had mine about 2years and its awsome. have used it on every ten tors training weekend and on 3 events, never fails to impress. the smaller gas canisters (that fit inside the cup) have lasted for about 6 2day expeds. the problem i had with it was the ingnition, like others have. it doesnt always light first time so you are left smelling gas. the weight isnt really an issue for me.

have also used it on a DofE practice exped. i wasnt alowed to take it but due to it being small(ish) i was able to hide it between my legs lol i had finished eating by the time the meths stoves had just about boiled water for the rest of the team.

its not a waste of money, just depends on who you are and what best suits you.
 Dave B 29 Jun 2009
In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:

I now have the primus small pan with heat exchanger as I already had a small stove.

http://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/primus_eta_1_litre_power_pot_with_he...

(and coffee press for that luxurious early brew!)

This does well, but does take slightly longer to set up that the jetboil and you can't hug it between ypour knees in the tent!

If I had not already had this I would seriously consider the Jetboil as an alternative. The BIG advantage to me seems to be set up time when you just want small amounts of hot water. The rest of it is by the by IMHumbleO.

 winhill 29 Jun 2009
In reply to stupot:
> [...]
>
> Some facts on efficiency:
>
> 1) A stove that was 100% efficient would use 9g gas to boil 1 litre water (I can post the maths if anyone is really interested).
> So a 100% efficient stove could only boil 11 litres of water from 100g gas. 12 litres is just not possible.
>
> 2) A pocket rocket turned up full blast on a 'mug' style pot (10cm dia) will use at least 20g gas - an efficiency of 45%
>
> 3) Turn the flame down just a little and use a wider pot (13cm dia) and the gas used will be less than 15g per litre boiled - an efficiency of at least 60%, and not much less than the jetboil claimed 80%
>

Would be interested in the maths, as you must be using a particular start point? Ambient temp, water temp (most important!).

How are you calculating the difference in the width of the pan versus flame spread? or is this bit more approximate?

I think most manufacturers quote outside figures, so that the quickest boil time is flame on full but then for efficiency is 70 or 75% on, as obviously it uses less gas.

Although jetboil users insist it is quicker than most other stoves the heat output is deliberately set low, 1800btu(?) to increase the efficiency at the expense of boil time, it is not designed to be the quickest.
 Tom_Harding 29 Jun 2009
I was just about to post a question about the jetboil, great topic timing.

I'm off to do the Walkers Haute route solo in a couple of months and need a suitable stove system. Its going to be used for all my cooking and possibly snow melting requirements for 14 days solid, so I need something quick, easy and reliable.

I simply can't decide between the jetboil or MSR Reactor!

I know the reactor is slightly bigger but being able to fit a proper sized gas cartridge inside seems like a real advantage. Also as a solo backpacker am i going to find the whole thing a bit of a lump to carry? It would also be handy for the stove to work well for general mountaineering as well - I'm poor and don’t want to have to buy another stove in the future.

Can anyone give me any advice

Thanks Tom
 winhill 29 Jun 2009
In reply to Tom_Harding:
>
> I simply can't decide between the jetboil or MSR Reactor!
>
Why have you decided between these two?

> I'm poor and don’t want to have to buy another stove in the future.

Why have you decided to go for expensive options then?

> Can anyone give me any advice

buy cheap stuff and save some money.

 Tom_Harding 29 Jun 2009
Thanks for the pointless sarcastic reply WinHill. Whats your opinion or advice then - Which stove would you go for (and why)?

Thanks
stupot 29 Jun 2009
In reply to winhill:

The calculations are on my home PC, but basically you need the specific heat of water and aluminium (for the pot) and the heat of combustion (net calorific value) of the gas (fortunately propane and butane have almost identical values so the mixture doesn't matter) to calculate the 100% efficient case.
2 and 3 are measured values with the given pot sizes on the same stove, the flame size wasn't measured.
 LastBoyScout 29 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:

No use for frying bacon in them!

If you want a bloody expensive way of making a cup of tea/soup/other liquid in a hurry, then they seem fine.

If you want to use them for cooking real food, I think the pan is too narrow and too tall to be of much use. I also think they are too unstable, as they are so high and narrow.

It's a good concept with some nice ideas, but, ultimately, it's just a well marketed, over-priced gimick and I wouldn't touch it.

In principle, I don't like any stove that stands on the fuel, so I'll be sticking with my Primus Omnifuel
 Tom_Harding 29 Jun 2009
Can anyone come up with a stove, pan and gas cylinder combination that packs as small as either the jetboil or reactor and has the same water capacities.

Thanks
 Reach>Talent 29 Jun 2009
In reply to Tom_Harding:
I'd have a think about what you are going to need in terms of fuel;
-How much snow melting will you need to do?
-What are you planning on taking food wise?

You may find that your final stove decision comes down to a choice between a Pocket rocket and a lightweight pan or a petrol/multifuel stove. If you expect to do a lot of snow melting then going for a multifuel stove may be a good bet as it seems very fuel intensive.
 Mr-Cowdrey 29 Jun 2009
In reply to LastBoyScout: i like to cook the boil in the bag so the jetboil is an ideal piece of kit for that. i havnt had an issue with it falling over. a well chosen spot and care is all it needs.

you can however, buy a stable support fot it to sit in which widens the base.
 Tom_Harding 29 Jun 2009
All my cooking will be boil in a bag and tinned stuff so im not too bothered about the ability to cook a full english. Snow melting wise i'm not sure how much i will need to do, i drink alot of water and will be treking through some resonably remote country so its probably an important factor. Also i would like to use the stove for mountaneering later so the ability to easily hang it seems important (IMHO).

 Dave B 29 Jun 2009
In reply to Tom_Harding:

How about

the primus version:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/m32px2


http://tinyurl.com/m32px2


 winhill 29 Jun 2009
In reply to Tom_Harding:
> Thanks for the pointless sarcastic reply WinHill.

you say that like it's a bad thing!

the first question is the most important:

Why have you decided between these two?

if you told us this it would solve all the twenty question style guesses people would need to make to help you.

when you say walkers haute route, you don't mean the skiers haute route do you? for many people the walkers haute route would require absolutely no need to melt snow, unless you're doing it because you want too? also using the WHR you can re-supply loads of places so again makes a big difference.



 Dave B 29 Jun 2009
In reply to Dave B:

You can fit a 220 cylinder in the pan. I have done so. Wha ti can't fit into mine is the stove unit as well. (Primus Titanium Jobby, not as per kit!).
 winhill 29 Jun 2009
In reply to Dave B:
> (In reply to Mr-Cowdrey)
>
> I now have the primus small pan with heat exchanger as I already had a small stove.
>
> http://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/primus_eta_1_litre_power_pot_with_he...
>

That's a bad website isn't it?

Says two completely different claims, offers 50% fuel efficiency and then says saves up to 50% of fuel!

Probably just a lazy cut n paste rather than deliberately misleading, but still, numbnuts!
 Dave B 29 Jun 2009
In reply to winhill:

Is there a way the two could still be true?

 Tom_Harding 29 Jun 2009
Wh: you say that like it's a bad thing!

Th: I get used to it on the UKC forums...

Wh: the first question is the most important:Why have you decided between these two?

Th: Their small, convenient, quick (all this is form reading reviews obviously!)and seem like a good bet as a climbing/mountaineering stove after the trip.

Wh: when you say walkers haute route, you don't mean the skiers haute route

Th: Walking version... As im doing it solo it avoids all the glacier crossings.

Wh: for many people the walkers haute route would require absolutely no need to melt snow, unless you're doing it because you want too? also using the WHR you can re-supply loads of places so again makes a big difference.

Th: Thanks for that, its something i haven’t seen much in the guide books about. Im taking a tent and aiming to sleep up high so snow melting is what im expecting to have to do. Also I want to meltsnow to save weight on carrying water, ie gas weighs less.


stupot 29 Jun 2009
In reply to stupot:

To back up this:
> 1) A stove that was 100% efficient would use 9g gas to boil 1 litre water (I can post the maths if anyone is really interested).
> So a 100% efficient stove could only boil 11 litres of water from 100g gas. 12 litres is just not possible.

Specific heat of water : 4.186 J/gK

so 1000g water starting at 10C requires 4.186 x 1000 x 90 = 376.74 kJ to boil

An aluminium (specific heat 0.896 J/gK) pot weighing 200g needs
0.896 x 200 x 90 = 16.1 kJ

Total energy required = 376.74 + 16.1 = 393 kJ

Net calorific value of propane/butane = 45.8 kJ/g

Amount of gas required, assuming 100% efficient = 393 / 45.8 = 8.6 g

How jetboil can claim to boil 12 liters from 100g gas (ie 8.3 g gas per litre) is entirely beyond me

> In conclusion, the extra weight of jetboil and other 'high' efficiency systems never justify the extra weight on short solo trips, eg using a single 250g canister.

 Tom_Harding 29 Jun 2009
Does anyone know if the gas canister and stove will fit inside the primus etaExpress

http://www.primus.se/Templates/Pages/3_cols_white_middle.aspx?SectionId=588...
 Dave B 29 Jun 2009
In reply to Tom_Harding:

Its what they claim on the English Primus site...

"All of the components, as well as a 230 gram LP gas cartridge, can be packed into the pot"

They also claim you can hang it:
"Like all other Eta stoves, you can hang the EtaExpress using the PRIMUS suspension kit."

Might be worth an email to one of the sellers of it though to check!
 winhill 29 Jun 2009
In reply to Dave B:
> (In reply to winhill)
>
> Is there a way the two could still be true?

I guess, if you had a really inefficent old camping gaz carrying on camping era stove that used 30 odd grams a litre?

If the heat exchanger/flux ring makes so much difference why don't they just show a video comparing a pan with one and one without one, but using the same actual pans?

It would be so easy to do this (youtube has a few amateur attempts).

Instead we get some vague over stated figures that have no real world application, deliberately made to obsfucate the real performance.
 Tom_Harding 29 Jun 2009
From what i'v seen you cant put diffrent pans on to the reactor because of the convex burner. Anyone know if you could use somthing like the primus griddle to get around the problem?


http://www.primus.se/Templates/Pages/3_cols_white_middle.aspx?SectionId=588...
 Erik B 29 Jun 2009
In reply to bivy spirit: jetboil boils water very fast, simple. minus points, pot capacity is useless (limit marker way way down the pot, neoprene cover on pot burns like feck particularly when you hang it up using the neoprene handle, very dangerous. nice concept but needs a LOT more design work. i use mine for quick roadside brews and sea kayaking, wouldnt like to use it in a tent in extremis
 winhill 29 Jun 2009
In reply to Dave B:

That's a shockingly poor review isn't it? Basically just reproducing the press releases.

I like this bit from the 'verdict'(sic):

"Verdict

There are some genuinely good innovations here, which keep your pack light"

Except it isn't light, Susan you monkey!

The Editor at Outdoors Magic, Jon Doran has done a comparison with the eta as well and that was similarly poor (although to be fair nowhere need as bad as this advertorial).
In reply to stupot:

Good analysis, and I agree with you conclusions. I've done the same calculations for meths (from bond energy basics, for calculation efficiencies of home-made meths burners). Meths is roughly half as energy dense as pure hydrocarbon fuels (gas/petrol).

I've got a JetBoil; I got it free. I don't use it.

It's too heavy, too bulky, and the piezo gives up the ghost (can be recovered if you know how to use it). The max fill level is pretty poor, too.

If the OP is used to the Trangia, I might suggest a Caldera Cone as a lighter, lower bulk replacement. But it really depends what the OP wants from a stove; 2 day bivying, I'd suggest that meths is potentially the lightest solution. It's not fast, but the Caldera Cone is pretty efficient. Speed and efficiency are pretty incompatible requirements.

For a small canister stove, I'd probably go for the Vargo Jet-Ti over the Pocket Rocket. Or go for the low-profile MSR WindPro.
In reply to jonnie3430:

> Minuses- you only get full performance when the gas canister is more than a quarter (conservative,) full, so I have lots of threequarter full canisters to use on my old stove...

Use a better fuel mix than propane/butane. MSR's isobutane mix, for instance. The problem with anything with normal butane in it is that it has a high boiling point, so the propane comes off preferentially, leaving the butane behind. Around freezing, the butane simply won't evaporate fast enough to give a decent flame. With the WindPro, you can invert the canister and use a liquid feed (it has a pre-heat tube).

With all stoves, it's generally best to throttle back for efficiency; sticking the thing on full power will just piss heat uselessly up the side of the pan (heating the handles to burn you, as well...). A pan with a heat exchanger allows you to run the stove a bit hotter, because it pulls the heat out of the flame that would otherwise go up the side.
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Or go for the low-profile MSR WindPro.

Sorry; lower profile...
OP bivy spirit 02 Jul 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:

****'s sake! i just got back from a wee adventure last night and have only now come back to this thread to see if anything more had been said... i certainly wasn't expecting this much info!

that's me back in the city and starting to think about the stove upgrade shopping trip once again. following this thread i'm going to go back to square one and reconsider the whole shebang before i spend any cash.

i think it's safe to say that the jetboil would do what i want it to do, but it certainly is expensive and a few folk's debunking of the efficiency claims has got me convinced that an assessment of the alernatives is seriously required. i still like the idea and it does, to an extent, suit my specific needs (eg: folk finding the cup too small for cooking isn't a big worry for me, in fact it's part of the appeal) but i'm pleased to see a couple of viable alternatives mentioned amongst the comments and i've certainly been dissuaded enough to properly investigate these in detail.

thanks to all for chipping in, you've certainly answered my query! cheers
 Ander 02 Jul 2009
In reply to captain paranoia:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
>
> [...]
>
> Use a better fuel mix than propane/butane. MSR's isobutane mix, for instance. The problem with anything with normal butane in it is that it has a high boiling point, so the propane comes off preferentially, leaving the butane behind...


Now I've really learned something useful there- Captain Paranoia I salute you!
 Ssshhh 02 Jul 2009
The thing with the JetBoil and similar designs over, say, a PocketRocket is that is a brilliant package:

When storing it in your pack you can fit a 125 gas cartridge and a lighter in the pan. It's not the lightest, not the smallest but it's a neat package that stay together in your pack and is easy to grab out.

All connected up you can hold it in you hands or between your thighs, alternately warming your hand on the pot to warm the cannister with the other and, done *carefully*, you can have it in your sleeping bag.

If you want to cook anything other than instant mush it's rubbish, otherwise - especially on small bivi ledges on a big mountain face - it's absolutely magic.

Personally on a 2-day trip round the hills I quite like eating relatively normal food, for which a camping pan and a small burner is far better. A JetBoil is probably a bit OTT for pondering round the hills with, except to make a cheeky brew...
In reply to bivy spirit: Good stove! Just don't do what I keep doing and put the burner into the pot upside down as it knackers the electronic ignition and it won't light without good old trusty matches. (replacement electronic ignition available in the service kit.)
Also it's a bit tricky to do anything but hot water and boil in the bag food.
Damm good stove and worth the money though if I was buying one again I would be tempted to get the new Primus ETA stove.
 mlmatt 03 Jul 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:

They arn't the lightest stove, but then ease of use outweights this.

The gas flow knob is hard to operate with gloves on, but with a little ingenuity, drill and wire you can make it easier to use.

hope this helps
Just_Jonny 06 Jul 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:

MSR Reactor. no contest.

p.s. just don't come back to me with any bullshit whinery about not being able to cook 'Coc au Vin' in it.

p.p.s. also, i let go of my chronically rabid 'keeping up with latest/best gear for the job'ism a good year ago in most area of climbing gear since, basically, i've been doing feck all of 'doin the job'.
So...just check they haven't manage to break into my mind in the course of said year past without my knowing, and stolen my whinging thoughts on the lack of foresite they had in leaving out the few minor details that would have made it truly awesome, and with them the plans for modifications to correct said oversites. i.e. by announcing a Mark II yet.
Just_Jonny 06 Jul 2009
In reply to belfast_jonny:

i.e. i cant be arsed doing it for you. you're lucky i happened to barely summoned the (re)interest in climbing for the 1st time in at least 6 months today to log on here.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=284191&v=1#x4216748
OP bivy spirit 06 Jul 2009
In reply to belfast_jonny:

aye, clicked the link and read with interest.

just look at that MSR price tag though...

i don't need the capacity either and it's bigger as a result, plus doesn't slot together the same way.

i don't think i can justify the price of the reactor TBH. the one thing that would maybe have me considering it is that because i do alot of hill bivying i'm guessing that the impact of wind on the jetboil is likely to be a problem whereas the reactor performs much better in this respect by all accounts. it's clearly a better stove, but probably overkill for my kind of use.

if i'm sticking my head out of the bivy in grim conditions on a scottish hilltop and the jetboil is blowing itself out then i've got a big problem. as a trangia veteran i'm not actually in that much of a rush boiltime wise- convenience of use and reliability are probably the biggest considerations (and let's not worry about the piezo: any kind of auto ignite is going to be a weak point that i'm unlikely to have faith in, so there's always going to be a lighter in my pocket)... if it stays lit in a gale on exposed ground like the meths stove then great.

yup, still not parted with my hard earned... despite getting an unexpected council tax rebate cheque last week. the jury's still out!

Just_Jonny 07 Jul 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:

Ok, i know i'm gonna end up writing a bloody book or something about this kind of shite anyway, so i might as well start now!....


...i couldn't justify the cost of a reactor either, until, to give one example, i realised it could let me totally re-think what i could be 'capable' of in a terms of approaching 'extreme alpinism' a-la monsieur Twight, with a lot of careful thought and planning (and co-joining with other incomplete skills and theories learnt over the years).

So....to give away one aspect of it:
go away and consider the middle-high alpine environment with its typical availability of liquid water, but unlimited availability of 'non-liquid/useless' water. then imagine a very full-day route, for which failure equals 2-3 days before safe return.

then calculate the cost/weight of a jetboil + its canister + its weight + its volume + its efficiency and incredible increase in time saved in the whole process of refueling humans(with both H2O and food energy).

Then do exactly the same/all the above with an MSR Reactor

Then do exactly the same/all the above with an approach which refuses a stove, and measure the 'safe compromise' volume of water to take (for arguements sake lets say we can agree its is likely to measure a minimum of 2-3L, PER person). now measure in your mind the volume that those 6 litres take up between a pair + their weight (think about it, its precisely 6kg)

Then? compare and contrast.


I'm aware that the first thing you are going to come back to me and say "are you crazy!? i only want to go bivying in my back yard, how did you manage to turn this conversation into a crazy ramble about all that shite you've just spewed up there"

Well...i'm also aware the above may sound a bit extreme, crazy even, and blur the line between metaphysic,philosphy and climbing! but hey, how'd you know that that secretly is all that is the difference between you, I, the mere climbing man, and the 'super'man climber!? and in every area of human endevour including climbing for that matter. (nietzsche's "Übermensch" btw, case you were wondering why the hell those last 2 sentences sounded extra odd)
Just_Jonny 07 Jul 2009
In reply to belfast_jonny:

all the best, and good luck choosing btw!
OP bivy spirit 07 Jul 2009

> Well...i'm also aware the above may sound a bit extreme, crazy even, and blur the line between metaphysic,philosphy and climbing! but hey, how'd you know that that secretly is all that is the difference between you, I, the mere climbing man, and the 'super'man climber!? and in every area of human endevour including climbing for that matter. (nietzsche's "Übermensch" btw, case you were wondering why the hell those last 2 sentences sounded extra odd)...

ok well i certainly didn't see that coming!
jaw droppingly impressive reply jonny... i'm having one of those moments =D

<scratching head>


 CarolineMc 07 Jul 2009
In reply to bivy spirit: I often have this debate with friends. I think the jetboil is an impressive bit of kit, but it is heavy and the pot size and shape is limiting.

My solution is a Primus Micron in an Alpkit MyTiMug - I can get the stove and gas in there and the mug is big enough for most things. If, however, I want to cook something else I have the option of swapping to a frying pan or a bigger saucepan without thinking I've just spent £85 on something so limiting. The new Primus heat exchanger pans are excellent and had these been out when I bought the stove I'd have definitely got the little 1,2l pot and lid instead of the MyTiMug. Far more flexible, almost as efficient, cheaper and a neater size to carry about too. The only thing you can't do is hold it in its cozy, but why would you need to?!

C-:
OP bivy spirit 07 Jul 2009
In reply to CarolineMc:

yup... the bad news is that the mytimug is currently out of stock.

i'll check out the smaller primus exchanger pans too though. hmmmmm.

ta!
 leeford 07 Jul 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:


My only concern with it is it's stability, so when buying get the foot kit.
The pot can be small but you can also get the bigger pan with it now as well.

When buying it look online. I bought mine when they were very new and got it off Ebay from USA. Worked out about half price.
In reply to belfast_jonny:

> Then do exactly the same/all the above with an approach which refuses a stove, and measure the 'safe compromise' volume of water to take

Then consider, if you're in an environment where there is "unlimited availability of 'non-liquid/useless' water", how you will keep the water you're carrying in useful (liquid) form...
In reply to bivy spirit:

> yup... the bad news is that the mytimug is currently out of stock.

Look out for 'Tibetan' titanium cookware, then...
In reply to Ander:

> Now I've really learned something useful there- Captain Paranoia I salute you!

You might like to look at some pretty graphs I plotted showing a prediction of how butane/propane cylinder pressure falls with use:

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/forummessages/mps/UTN/29480/URN/6/dt/4/s...

Interesting to compare with jonnie3430's 3/4 full comment...

Just_Jonny 09 Jul 2009
In reply to captain paranoia:
> (In reply to belfast_jonny)
> Then consider, if you're in an environment where there is "unlimited availability of 'non-liquid/useless' water", how you will keep the water you're carrying in useful (liquid) form...


are you for real/taking the piss outta me?....in an 1 liter nalgene bottle?...

...which couldn't possibly weigh more than 150-200grms(?)....yous keep topping up with the 'left-over' hot water everytime you pit-stop for a 3 liter hydration session every 2-3 hours.....and will only take you 10 minutes Max if you're organised (Or can be done while belaying with an autoblocker on-route (if said route is sufficiently steep to hang stove off ice-screw and make job easier than shitting your pants that you're going to knock it down the 3000' side of the midi etc))

um? what else?....drinking water warm is better for you, regarless of if the weather/your body environment is hot or cold, cos it is easier and quicker absorbed and its causes your body to loose/waste less energy bringing it up to 'room' temperature (i.e. the 37+(especially if you've added food) degrees of your gut). Yes i know it may taste disgusting warm, so deal with it. you'll get to like it trust me, like drinking you're own urine(oops, too much...delete? delete? delete!?)
Cos it also, perhaps even more important/advantagiously it means if you put the water in the bottle almost boiling initially you will have an amazing central heater bobbing about your whole thorax-to-crotch area of your Paramo salopettes(with your harness stopping it from burning your nads off in your fetching merino undies)
and also since its boiling...you can carry a lid/cup/the stove pot handy to cram with snow on the move and add some from the 'hot-waterbottle' to get lips friendly warm water. thereby stretching a 1 liter bottle of water to maybe 2! and reducing the number and down-time of pit-stops even further again!

...and round and round we go! bored yet? actually that wasn't really a question, sorry! cos i am...soooo?....tara duck!



p.s. and btw, the 'non-liquid/useless' water" is all that pretty ice and snow around you. case i was being too obtuse there too?
In reply to belfast_jonny:

> p.s. and btw, the 'non-liquid/useless' water" is all that pretty ice and snow around you. case i was being too obtuse there too?

No, you weren't being obtuse; I was asking how you intended to stop the 3l of water you said you were planning on carrying from freezing, in an environment of ice and snow, with no stove:

"Then do exactly the same/all the above with an approach which refuses a stove, and measure the 'safe compromise' volume of water to take (for arguements sake lets say we can agree its is likely to measure a minimum of 2-3L, PER person). now measure in your mind the volume that those 6 litres take up between a pair + their weight (think about it, its precisely 6kg)"
Just_Jonny 10 Jul 2009
In reply to captain paranoia:

ah ya see, now you're thinkin.
plus i never considered i hadn't made the 3rd option sound rhetorical as far as options i myself would even consider. i never ever use option 3 anymore you see - and haven't done for some time in fact, including/especially Scottish winter day-trips - IF i know i am going to be within the snowline of wherever i am within the first 3 hours on the first day.

right, time for me to go back to having given up climbing! ....

via con dios!
 dangermouse79 12 Jul 2009
In reply to bivy spirit:

Does anyone have any experience of the Primus Gravity II multifuel stove? Seems like a nice set-up that you can use either gas canisters or liquid fuel for. Does anyone have any experience of actually using it?

Thanks

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