UKC

Not sure of the veracity or accuracy but after Broad Stand comes Pillar......
http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/News-Landing/Search-Results/Outdoor-headl...

In reply to Andy Say: It looks like a fairly reliable source. How long will it be before your regular, climbing rack contains either a drill and resin or a pair of bolt cutters, depending on your outlook?

In reply to Andy Say: ffs

In reply to Andy Say: Hmmm bad news, I have heard whispers that there are more bolts to be found in the lakes, I hope they are wrong.
Going off these and the ones on BS I would think Pinnacle Ridge/Sharp Edge/Striding Edge and maybe some Ghyll Scrambles could be at risk. Hope I`m wrong.

In reply to Andy Say:

Hi Andy it's true. I have been in contact with some of the Lakes lads and so far two resin fixed staples on the slab have been spotted!

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: Which slab? Is it on the scramble ascent/descent?

In reply to dan bailey: Yes on the slab of Slab and Notch is what I have been told. Not been up to look yet but I got it from a reliable source.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:
Aaaaaaaaarrrgh.

Sorry. Not an intelligent reponse. But just what the hell is going on!

In reply to Andy Say: teotw??

In reply to Andy Say: I just can't understand why, bolting debate aside, the place is stuffed full of natural pro!

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: That is bonkers, is someone taking the p*ss?

In reply to J1234:

There's one on Sharp Edge used by MR teams.

In reply to dan bailey: My thoughts exactly.

In reply to Paul F: Hidden away though, do you know where abouts it it or do you see it whilst going over ?

In reply to Paul F:

In this instance the leader of the local MRT has very clearly stated it was not them.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft:

Said it before Jeremy, I reckon this is a type of performance art to provoke responses on outdoor websites.

In reply to 5cifi:

It's been placed near the accident blackspot on SE.

In reply to Paul F: Do you ever see it whilst your up there ?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I am struggling to find any reason to take this sort of action. One thing I am sure about however who ever did it has scant respect for the Lakeland mountains.

In reply to 5cifi:

Saw it being used for a casualty last winter, other than that, you'll not notice it.

In reply to Andy Say:
This is outrageous. The thin edge of the wedge is here.

In reply to Paul F: Exactly, covertly placed. Whereas the BS and these latest bolts are in full view, which is wrong.

In reply to Andy Say: This makes me very angry. I think it may be the work of some crank trying to take the piss on a grand scale.

Whoever or why ever aside, it is very sad indeed, I'm just waiting for some moron to come and condone it.

In reply to Nicholas Livesey:

I am waiting for the person/persons who placed them give their honest reason for for their actions - I suspect I will have a very long wait.

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: I don't think the BS folks owned up, I doub't if these bas*ards will

In reply to Andy Say: i wonder what the next hard scramble on their bolting list is?
pinnacle ridge, lorton gulley, or maybe one of the gill scrambles (piers or ashness)?

In reply to subalpine: I think Crib Goch

In reply to 5cifi:

An honest debate is what we need. They are obviously motivated enough to go to the trouble of placing them, so why will they not argue their case?

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: i found the slab and notch traverse pretty hairy..

This is outrageous - I hope they have been chopped by now?

In reply to ERU: I certainly hope they have not been chopped. Carefully removed yes but not chopped.

In reply to Andy Say:
The phantom saddo strikes again. Chop 'em all!

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Not good. Has anyone ever attempted to cleanly remove a staple? By all accounts they're not easy.

In reply to brt: I think you have to drill another small hole to inject a solvent for the glue. Not good as you say but better than leaving ugly stubbs

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


I'm almost tempted to agree with you Mick. Broad Stand I could sort of understand (plenty of traffic from people who might not be aware of history), but Pillar? Most of the time there's no one to be found there.....

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Can't you use a small pilot bit to drill the resin then slide out the staple? Sure I have done this! Then fill in the hole with resin and cover with rock dust.

It can be a pain but bolts can be removed cleanly and no sign can be left of their passing!.... well almost.

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Hope you're right.

In reply to Carolyn: I have nothing to do with the bolts and wouldn't know how to place one, however it seems as if the argument that's used to support all sorts of activities in the name of 'access' might well be used to support the placing of these bolts.

30 years or so ago there was a big thing about chalk, and the attitude at the time was 'well it's only the elite, so it's no problem' now you can spot the holds on popular VDiffs on roadside crags from the peak to the pass and Borrowdale from the road.

In reply to Mr Ree:


Yes, I can understand the arguement, but I'm still surprised at Pillar Rock. Then again, it's one of the Wainright tops, I think?

In reply to Carolyn: I cant cant see an individual doing it but posibly and outdoor adventure group. Thats the downside of commercialising the outdoors.

In reply to Fawksey: One of many.

In reply to Fawksey:

I think you need to look at the history of mountaineering in the UK...it's been commercialised from day 1, afterall that was a major factor in the early years of fell running...

I agree with Mick..

In reply to Fawksey:

You can't get many clients to walk as far as Pillar Rock ime!

I agree it's likely to be a group/company rather than an individual, I just can't envisage who....

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Hi Mick

If it is a staple then the best way I have found of taking them out is to take along a metal wedge and crow bar. You place the wedge inside the staple with the crow bar between it and the rock then prise. As it comes out move the wedge further in. Doesnt damage the rock in the way drilling does.

Paul

In reply to Andy Say:
OH FFS Normally i take the middle ground to promote discussion and not state my view but this is getting to be a joke. Wonder is this is the same people as last time?

In reply to Carolyn: it's not a Wainwright, he said iirc "Don't even try to get a foothold on it".

What's more Mr Ree is talking shit about access. If access is an issue then lets get cable cars and trains up all our hills.

If you haven't got the experience, skills or physical ability to get up something then leave it alone. Bolts on British mountain crags are unacceptable. There is no debate to had.

In reply to Paul Clarke:

You should write the manual Paul.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Surely Doug Scott will know, he must have researched clean removal of bolts for his BMC presidential bid

In reply to Andy Say:

Not good to hear at all, bolts on mountain crags are a no no in the Lakes or anywhere ! Didnt know there was one on Hellvelyn though having been up many times I havent seen it which I guess is a good thing, there are the odd bolts here and there all over the place though I know of one on the Ben too ! I would agree with Mick and wouldnt be surprised if its folk getting attention on here bad trend if that is the case though !

In reply to Nicholas Livesey: I wasn't being entirely serious, calm down, it's only an internet forum.

My point was that the arguments for all sorts of things that now pass withour comment are the same sorts of thing that would be used to defend this action.

Do go have some Ovaltine it's late.

In reply to Andy Say:

Does anybody placing a bolt in this kind of location honestly think it will remain there? Who "gains" from this?

In reply to Andy Say:

It must have took a lot of effort to lug a bolt drill up to Pillar, hints at some sort of organisation - possibly a film crew?

Have they been there a while and not noticed/reported? Is Julia Bradbury (Wainwright Walks) a suspect?

In reply to IainRUK:

Better if youd put it as dont you think the history of mountaineering teaches us that its been commercialised since its inception? The way you put it implies Ive never taken an interest in it at all : )

In reply to kevin stephens: Normally a film crew will approach the local MRT to ask them to set up ropes and pro. and then they will give a good donation to the MRT. I know Wasdale helped out a few weeks ago on some BBC program, forget which

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

You have been a webmaster too long!!!!!
Great point thought.

In reply to kevin stephens:


Don't be silly!

For the record I'm confused. I'm having difficulty picturing the individual responsible for this. If they know how to place bolts/staples then they are most likely aware of UK ethics. Therefore, they would also know that any bolts/staples placed on pillar will be taken out very soon. So why bother?

I'm totally against bolts/staples on pillar. I don't see any point in explaining why.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: they can be removed cleanly as you stated, the issue is that doing such a thorough job while hanging about on a rope will be pretty taxing, swapping/dropping dill bits etc.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


So we're looking for someone who would benefit from an increase in noise on UKC, knows how to place bolts, is not afraid of provoking controversy, and probably lives locally...

In reply to Andy S:

it is not unknown for film crews to bolt crags for rigging etc

In reply to flaneur:

And he'd have got away with it if it wasn't for you meddling kids!

In reply to kevin stephens:

Not film crews I was ever a cameraman on they didn't. People on crews that know how to place a bolt should know better than to do it!

In reply to gethin_allen:

That might be an issue if the slab were steep, but it's not, you can easily stand upright on it. All you'd need is a safety rope in case you slipped.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Not sure it could be classed as art, but there are certainly plenty of trolls and wind-up merchants out there who get a perverse thrill about upsetting people on the internet. I guess it was only a matter of time before they moved from the virtual to the real world.

Obviously there is nothing new in mindless vandalism, but given that the perpetrator get his kicks from the anger it creates in others, the internet fuels their habit.

In reply to gethin_allen:

If they're on the slab of slab & notch, won't be hanging on rope. It's virtually flat. Well, easy to stand on or walk across anyhow (though long drop if you did fall). So hopefully possible.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Reminds me of John Redhead and his painting on Indian Face. His thrill was perverse.

Now there was a wind-up merchant....who loved winding up the climbing community whether they were 'on the internet', at home, in a pub or at a crag.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Now then, Mick,
There are certain unsolicited and malicious rumours circulating amongst some of the lakes lads that this rash of easy bolting issues have been perpetuated by yourself in an attempt to initiate a greater volume of hits on the UKC website - - their claim stems from the grades of the bolted routes - Broad Stand (Diff) and Slab and Notch (Mod), and their evidence of "what's Mick Ryan ever done?"

I hope you can repudiate these nasty rumours!!!

Yours, with tongue very much in cheek,
Al

In reply to Al Phiz:

Shit - busted.

I'm up there tomorrow.

In reply to Paul F: you are not wrong bolts will grow like weeds on all crags it all started with g. g. the b.m.c what a w.o.t. they are bring back d gray and thank god for ken the mouth wilson

In reply to Removed UserJeremy Ashcroft: they do not have a case

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


We're waiting for you......

In reply to Andy Say:

In the book 'The First Tigers' there is a whole chaper dedicated to the first ascent of Pillar Rock - Old West Route, and as such is noted as a defining moment in the history of Rock climbing (World wide).

A first ascent done in big boot, Tweed suit and a walking stick.

Now 183 years later, yes 183 years; we have either an mindless individual or bunch of thoughtless spineless fools who think it is ok to conduct an act of vandalism.

We are breading a society of soft thoughtless log book tickers.

In reply to brian a: Yes it would be very sad day if someone went to the length of putting bolts in for a windup. I just hope whoever did it would come forward and argue their case in the open, but I feel the longer their silence the greater the chance that it is a wind up.

In reply to Andy Say:

This is depressing. This really is way past the thin end. Grid bolts all over the people's republic, almost uncommented on lines of bolts up High Tor and now this just takes the biscuit.

STRING THE BASTARD UP. prefereably off one of his/her own bolts. i'm proud of our traditional heritage, keep the mountains as they are. too many routes are to polished and to busy. tho i'm very happy so many people love the hills, because, well they're top.

In reply to Andy Say:

Pillar is one of the 2000ft tops, another popular bagging Lakes list. Sadly, in these days of ever increasing participation in climbing, bolts will become more and more prevalent. Many people do know of the difference between trad and bolts, but don't actually care. 'Safer', 'can't see them anyway' and 'less faff' are some of the comments I've heard since the BS debate.

I also wonder if there is a legal aspect to this too. One of my life insurance policies forbids me to climb any route above S 4b (presumably if I die on a harder route, they don't pay out). Worryingly though, another forbids climbing unless protected by 'permanent protection, such as via ferrata cables or bolts'. I wonder if indemnity insurance for guides is reduced if they can claim to use routes with fixed pro?

Anyway, these need removed. But I think it will be a matter of time before they are back.

In reply to Andy Say:


I'm glad to say that this was a falsehood caused by a misunderstood conversation where both Broad Stand and Slab & Notch were discussed and the subject of bolts cropped up. One party was talking about seeing bolts on Broad Stand and the other was under the impression that they were talking about Slab & Notch. This other person then, understandably, told various friends about it and before long it's all over the internet so it must be true.

Friends of mine climbed Slab & Notch on Sunday and there are no bolts on it, nor any need for any whatsoever.

In reply to Stephen Reid:

Well - at least we're all totally clear now about where we stand when they do go in ;-}

In reply to Andy Say: Where am I going to direct all my unfocused outrage now?

In reply to Removed User:


This may help
http://www.ehow.com/how_2325172_punch-someone-face.html