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I am posting this here for Will Goldsmith since we are having an interesting discussion on a FS/Wanted thread that really deserves its own thread.
I'll paraphrase Will here but he started by saying that he thought the descriptions in the new Rockfax were lacking in beta.
I replied saying that we get many requests for less beta, but I'd love some examples of what he meant.
His reply was:
Im not saying that we had any problems finding where the routes go - in that respect the topo coupled with the descriptions give a killer combination.
However, back to my original point, we found that when looking for routes to do that are near/at your limmit a slightly more detailed description pays dividents. In the pub we compared the Rockfax guide to the old CC guide for routes in the leap, and it makes the routes feel that much more approachable because it lets you know that you have threads/pegs/other kit/good holds to go for. Obviosuly its up for debate weather this is what the general public want, but im sure that if i had seen the CC guide when we were in the leap i would have been more inclined to get on some harder routes.
Prehaps i've been spoiled by the Avon/Cheddar guidebooks which do tend to give more detail (for good or for bad?!).
I'll paraphrase Will here but he started by saying that he thought the descriptions in the new Rockfax were lacking in beta.
I replied saying that we get many requests for less beta, but I'd love some examples of what he meant.
His reply was:
Im not saying that we had any problems finding where the routes go - in that respect the topo coupled with the descriptions give a killer combination.
However, back to my original point, we found that when looking for routes to do that are near/at your limmit a slightly more detailed description pays dividents. In the pub we compared the Rockfax guide to the old CC guide for routes in the leap, and it makes the routes feel that much more approachable because it lets you know that you have threads/pegs/other kit/good holds to go for. Obviosuly its up for debate weather this is what the general public want, but im sure that if i had seen the CC guide when we were in the leap i would have been more inclined to get on some harder routes.
Prehaps i've been spoiled by the Avon/Cheddar guidebooks which do tend to give more detail (for good or for bad?!).
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
I have the Rockfax Dorset and the CC guide for Swanage, and besides the CC guide being more comprehensive I find that the descriptions are more useful.
It does not have picture topos and up-to date grading which is why I still carry the Rockfax but the descriptions of the CC guide give you a better feel for the route and are clearer. Which is not to say that more beta is needed, onsighting is great, but the CC ones give you a better fell/idea (or however you want to formulate it) for what's coming.
I tend to get lost less often with them as well
I have the Rockfax Dorset and the CC guide for Swanage, and besides the CC guide being more comprehensive I find that the descriptions are more useful.
It does not have picture topos and up-to date grading which is why I still carry the Rockfax but the descriptions of the CC guide give you a better feel for the route and are clearer. Which is not to say that more beta is needed, onsighting is great, but the CC ones give you a better fell/idea (or however you want to formulate it) for what's coming.
I tend to get lost less often with them as well
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
i had a quick flick through and i don't think the descriptions were overly beta heavy....hope to be able to use it in anger soon!
i had a quick flick through and i don't think the descriptions were overly beta heavy....hope to be able to use it in anger soon!
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Oh yeah, just for the record, i think Rockfax guides are the dogs balls for Sport climbing.
Oh yeah, just for the record, i think Rockfax guides are the dogs balls for Sport climbing.
My reply to Will is:
We made a conscious decision to remove mentions of pegs in the new Rockfax since there have been examples of people tackling routes based believing pegs to be in place when they weren't.
See Tom Briggs' comment here - http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=17829
The other points you mention may be a result of the trade off of some text description in favour of big full page photo-topos and I'd dispute the fact that all descriptions make routes more approachable. For example, I'd rather do Deep Throat on Triple Overhang armed with our guide than any description.
Alan
We made a conscious decision to remove mentions of pegs in the new Rockfax since there have been examples of people tackling routes based believing pegs to be in place when they weren't.
See Tom Briggs' comment here - http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=17829
The other points you mention may be a result of the trade off of some text description in favour of big full page photo-topos and I'd dispute the fact that all descriptions make routes more approachable. For example, I'd rather do Deep Throat on Triple Overhang armed with our guide than any description.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Back again Alan
An excellent guide up to the usual high standard but I do have a few quibbles
1. "The Gerbil" is given as "Star Trek" in the CC guide. Not sure where the name change comes from.
2. "Sunset Boulevard" and "Breaking Wind" are actually the same route.
3. Due to polish and damage from abseilers (in big army boots) "Dreamboat Annie" is probably veering more towards 5b
Back again Alan
An excellent guide up to the usual high standard but I do have a few quibbles
1. "The Gerbil" is given as "Star Trek" in the CC guide. Not sure where the name change comes from.
2. "Sunset Boulevard" and "Breaking Wind" are actually the same route.
3. Due to polish and damage from abseilers (in big army boots) "Dreamboat Annie" is probably veering more towards 5b
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
I know what will means, and I think it's partly - as you say - because rockfax topos are much clearer. However the longer decriptions are often both more inspiring and give you a better feel of the route - where it's hard/bold etc even if it's infering things not specifically stated in the text. Also, they can make route finding easier because topo lines often don't quite follow the intricacies of the route like detailed descriptions do. Whether this 'guidebook-beta' is good or bad is u for debate... Notably, the old 'continue with interest' = 'continue, boxed, scared and falailing' translations never happen with Rockfax.
Side note: I hope you guys changed your description for souls in the leap. I'm fairly sure it made one of my mates fall off, and I was damn glad we only had the CC guide when I looked at the rockfax after my mate and I did it. The line about not being tempted out left seems inexplicable - either you lot think one of the country's most classic e6s is a total elliminate (which noone does) or it's just totally misleading.
I know what will means, and I think it's partly - as you say - because rockfax topos are much clearer. However the longer decriptions are often both more inspiring and give you a better feel of the route - where it's hard/bold etc even if it's infering things not specifically stated in the text. Also, they can make route finding easier because topo lines often don't quite follow the intricacies of the route like detailed descriptions do. Whether this 'guidebook-beta' is good or bad is u for debate... Notably, the old 'continue with interest' = 'continue, boxed, scared and falailing' translations never happen with Rockfax.
Side note: I hope you guys changed your description for souls in the leap. I'm fairly sure it made one of my mates fall off, and I was damn glad we only had the CC guide when I looked at the rockfax after my mate and I did it. The line about not being tempted out left seems inexplicable - either you lot think one of the country's most classic e6s is a total elliminate (which noone does) or it's just totally misleading.
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Mike Robertson's route so I guess he knows what it is called. Not sure where the name Star Trek came form.
Yes, they probably are, but if you are bored and fancy a bit of blinkered eliminate climbing, you can squeeze and independent (ish) linbe up there.
Get your vote in on one of the databases.
Alan
> 1. "The Gerbil" is given as "Star Trek" in the CC guide. Not sure where the name change comes from.
Mike Robertson's route so I guess he knows what it is called. Not sure where the name Star Trek came form.
> 2. "Sunset Boulevard" and "Breaking Wind" are actually the same route.
Yes, they probably are, but if you are bored and fancy a bit of blinkered eliminate climbing, you can squeeze and independent (ish) linbe up there.
> 3. Due to polish and damage from abseilers (in big army boots) "Dreamboat Annie" is probably veering more towards 5b
Get your vote in on one of the databases.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
To the general thread....
I find combining Rockfax with CC guides to be the best combination at present as they compliment each other well.
I will of course be buying the new CC guide too when it comes out
To the general thread....
I find combining Rockfax with CC guides to be the best combination at present as they compliment each other well.
I will of course be buying the new CC guide too when it comes out
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Cheers for the reply will do
Cheers for the reply will do
In reply to Will Goldsmith:
At the end of the day Will, they are GUIDE books. They get you to the crag, they show you where your desired route is. They might give you a bit of information about it.
Then YOU climb it.
At the end of the day Will, they are GUIDE books. They get you to the crag, they show you where your desired route is. They might give you a bit of information about it.
Then YOU climb it.
In reply to abarro81:
I climbed Souls twice and this is where the description comes from. First time I got sucked too far left onto some big holds at the top below and left of the thread, and I couldn't get back onto the line. Second time I avoided the step left and it was ok. The big holds didn't lead anywhere, but I can see how you might have mis-read that bit thinking that there was an easy escape, you wouldn't once you got there though.
That was my experience so that's how I wrote it. If you know different then let us know via the databases.
I suspect your mate fell off because the move past the thread is nails.
It kind of illustrates the too much beta question as well. I had too much beta on the descriptions for Orange Robe and Draught Dodger in the 1995 guide which people pointed out to me, so those have been re-written with far less beta this time. However every guidebook has this since climbers all tend to experience things differently. It is not really unique to Rockfax.
Alan
> Side note: I hope you guys changed your description for souls in the leap. I'm fairly sure it made one of my mates fall off, and I was damn glad we only had the CC guide when I looked at the rockfax after my mate and I did it. The line about not being tempted out left seems inexplicable - either you lot think one of the country's most classic e6s is a total elliminate (which noone does) or it's just totally misleading.
I climbed Souls twice and this is where the description comes from. First time I got sucked too far left onto some big holds at the top below and left of the thread, and I couldn't get back onto the line. Second time I avoided the step left and it was ok. The big holds didn't lead anywhere, but I can see how you might have mis-read that bit thinking that there was an easy escape, you wouldn't once you got there though.
That was my experience so that's how I wrote it. If you know different then let us know via the databases.
I suspect your mate fell off because the move past the thread is nails.
It kind of illustrates the too much beta question as well. I had too much beta on the descriptions for Orange Robe and Draught Dodger in the 1995 guide which people pointed out to me, so those have been re-written with far less beta this time. However every guidebook has this since climbers all tend to experience things differently. It is not really unique to Rockfax.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
For what it's worth I don't care how much beta you put in a description as I have usually forgotten it by the time I'm on the route...
However, I was utterly disappointed by the cover shot though...
So many much more inspiring pics inside the guide you could have used...
Even the pic of the Leap from the old guide was better! (IMHO)
Luv Barra! xx
For what it's worth I don't care how much beta you put in a description as I have usually forgotten it by the time I'm on the route...
However, I was utterly disappointed by the cover shot though...
So many much more inspiring pics inside the guide you could have used...
Even the pic of the Leap from the old guide was better! (IMHO)
Luv Barra! xx
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
I've had a few trips to Pembroke now using the CC guide and have just got hold of a copy of the Rockfax.
The Rockfax is a really nice guide book, definitely one of the best you've produced. Personally I prefer a nice photo topo to the beta you get from CC guides, I'd rather head up the route with a rough idea where I'm heading and have a bit of an adventure*. This could be because I have a lousy memory for route descriptions and tend to remember only the first sentence, so in depth descriptions only help me for the first move or two.
*Admittedly at the time I may be swearing quietly under my breath and praying but I get more reward from heading up into the vaguely unknown.
I've had a few trips to Pembroke now using the CC guide and have just got hold of a copy of the Rockfax.
The Rockfax is a really nice guide book, definitely one of the best you've produced. Personally I prefer a nice photo topo to the beta you get from CC guides, I'd rather head up the route with a rough idea where I'm heading and have a bit of an adventure*. This could be because I have a lousy memory for route descriptions and tend to remember only the first sentence, so in depth descriptions only help me for the first move or two.
*Admittedly at the time I may be swearing quietly under my breath and praying but I get more reward from heading up into the vaguely unknown.
In reply to Reach>Talent: The new CC Swanage guide will have colour photo topos, just like the new CC Portland guide.
http://www.climbers-club.co.uk/downloads/Portland.pdf
http://www.climbers-club.co.uk/downloads/Portland.pdf
In reply to Duncan Bourne: The Gerbil is an arete to the left of the cave, climbed by Mike Robertson in 2007. Star Trek was climbed in 1983 and follows a crack to the right of the cave to an overhang, then finishes up a chimney.
In reply to Al Evans:
Is Mindmeld only 7a now??? I thought this was solid 7a+!
Nice guide though.
> (In reply to mkean) The new CC Swanage guide will have colour photo topos, just like the new CC Portland guide.
> http://www.climbers-club.co.uk/downloads/Portland.pdf
> http://www.climbers-club.co.uk/downloads/Portland.pdf
Is Mindmeld only 7a now??? I thought this was solid 7a+!
Nice guide though.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
With regard to Dreamboat Annie, it's one of the borderline HVS/E1 5a/5b routes, but I feel compelled to point out that it's credited as E1 in one photo and HVS in another.
With regard to Dreamboat Annie, it's one of the borderline HVS/E1 5a/5b routes, but I feel compelled to point out that it's credited as E1 in one photo and HVS in another.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
A better description is exactly that in the CC. I've not got my guides with me, but it's basically 'get to the peg and thread, move left, move up, move back right to the second thread' - this is how we climbed it and how we saw Mcnair and McManus do it (but they both fell off first getting a bit lost). Did you end up going straight past the first of the upper threads then? I think that's making life harder for yourself, though yes, moving back right to the upper thread is probably the crx once you've gone out left.. soft 6b though, going direct looks harder.
A better description is exactly that in the CC. I've not got my guides with me, but it's basically 'get to the peg and thread, move left, move up, move back right to the second thread' - this is how we climbed it and how we saw Mcnair and McManus do it (but they both fell off first getting a bit lost). Did you end up going straight past the first of the upper threads then? I think that's making life harder for yourself, though yes, moving back right to the upper thread is probably the crx once you've gone out left.. soft 6b though, going direct looks harder.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
yet another classic example of E0
> (In reply to Alan James - UKC)
> With regard to Dreamboat Annie, it's one of the borderline HVS/E1 5a/5b routes,
> With regard to Dreamboat Annie, it's one of the borderline HVS/E1 5a/5b routes,
yet another classic example of E0
In reply to Jeff25:
Nooooo! Not a Mindmeld grade debate! (search the forums for this ad nauseam...)
> Is Mindmeld only 7a now??? I thought this was solid 7a+!
Nooooo! Not a Mindmeld grade debate! (search the forums for this ad nauseam...)
By the by but on page 211 is that somebodys rope I see floating off to sea? Great guide Alan, slowly becoming more of a rock fax convert with each new guide, still a BMC guide guy for the peak im afraid!
In reply to abarro81:
CC Description says - "Move up, left then right (threads) to good holds. Straight up past a mega-thread to the top."
I got to the mega thread and moved left onto some large holds and couldn't get back right easily. It sounds from your description that maybe that is a way to do it, although that doesn't really fit with either written description.
Again, this illustrates the problems with text beta rather well. I personally prefer to sort it out for myself with a knowledge of roughly where the line goes.
Alan
CC Description says - "Move up, left then right (threads) to good holds. Straight up past a mega-thread to the top."
I got to the mega thread and moved left onto some large holds and couldn't get back right easily. It sounds from your description that maybe that is a way to do it, although that doesn't really fit with either written description.
Again, this illustrates the problems with text beta rather well. I personally prefer to sort it out for myself with a knowledge of roughly where the line goes.
Alan
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
there is no way dream boat annie is a 5b. I am a fat punter whose past glories weren't that glorious and I've done it a few times!
there is no way dream boat annie is a 5b. I am a fat punter whose past glories weren't that glorious and I've done it a few times!
In reply to Chris the Tall:
It was E1 5a until the last minute, when it got demoted to HVS. The photo-caption slipped through!
Chris
It was E1 5a until the last minute, when it got demoted to HVS. The photo-caption slipped through!
Chris
In reply to Al Evans:
I like the look of the new CC guides, but I'm just not a fan of text based beta. I'd much rather amble up routes and look for myself rather than moving from 'landmark' bit of gear etc. Possibly I'll change my mind when I start climbing harder routes or maybe my misinterpretation of second hand beta on a route at Guillemot ledge has put me off any sort of beta - I think it was what you'd call a proper Swanage experience
I like the look of the new CC guides, but I'm just not a fan of text based beta. I'd much rather amble up routes and look for myself rather than moving from 'landmark' bit of gear etc. Possibly I'll change my mind when I start climbing harder routes or maybe my misinterpretation of second hand beta on a route at Guillemot ledge has put me off any sort of beta - I think it was what you'd call a proper Swanage experience
In reply to Chris Craggs: Bloody Hell, 5 discussions about a route I put up in 1978, I think I gave it E1 5a in those days, but I guess with polish it could have got harder, though I'd assumed there might be a micro nut somewhere now ( I also thought, and still do, that its worth more than one star)
In reply to Al Evans:
It's a lovely route Al, might even do it again this weekend.
I think E1 5a is right, just because you'd end up in the sea if you mucked up the hard move at the start. But then again it may be HVS
But the main point is - Am I the first one to spot an error in the new guide and if so what's my prize ?
It's a lovely route Al, might even do it again this weekend.
I think E1 5a is right, just because you'd end up in the sea if you mucked up the hard move at the start. But then again it may be HVS
But the main point is - Am I the first one to spot an error in the new guide and if so what's my prize ?
In reply to Nic:
sorry i had no idea. Ill just accept it as one of lifes little mysteries and try not to let it get to me that i fell off.
> (In reply to Jeff25)
>
> [...]
>
> Nooooo! Not a Mindmeld grade debate! (search the forums for this ad nauseam...)
>
> [...]
>
> Nooooo! Not a Mindmeld grade debate! (search the forums for this ad nauseam...)
sorry i had no idea. Ill just accept it as one of lifes little mysteries and try not to let it get to me that i fell off.
In reply to Jeff25:
No worries - it's tough to grade anyway as it's not much more than a boulder problem. E3 6b in old money...
No worries - it's tough to grade anyway as it's not much more than a boulder problem. E3 6b in old money...
In reply to Chris the Tall: 'Am I the first one to spot an error in the new guide and if so what's my prize ?'
Good grief, no. Scott Titt was complaining about the line for one of his routes being wrong on the 15th - http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=29393
Good grief, no. Scott Titt was complaining about the line for one of his routes being wrong on the 15th - http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=29393
In reply to John2:
Not complaining' just clarifying....and I didn't complain about prusik being wrongly spelt! (P29 Alan!)
Not complaining' just clarifying....and I didn't complain about prusik being wrongly spelt! (P29 Alan!)
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
The 'mega-thread' is surely the huge one in the final section after all the real climbing's over..? I'm talking about the crux bit, where you clip the (remains of) the peg and then the first of 2 fairly close together threads.. we then went left, up and right to the second thread where there's jugs and the end of any difficulties. Did you go direct here?
The 'mega-thread' is surely the huge one in the final section after all the real climbing's over..? I'm talking about the crux bit, where you clip the (remains of) the peg and then the first of 2 fairly close together threads.. we then went left, up and right to the second thread where there's jugs and the end of any difficulties. Did you go direct here?
In reply to Chris Craggs:
If that route is HVS 5a why are you bothering with adjectival grades at all?
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> It was E1 5a until the last minute, when it got demoted to HVS. The photo-caption slipped through!
>
>
> It was E1 5a until the last minute, when it got demoted to HVS. The photo-caption slipped through!
>
If that route is HVS 5a why are you bothering with adjectival grades at all?
In reply to davidwright:
Don't understand your point - sorry.
Chris
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
> [...]
>
> If that route is HVS 5a why are you bothering with adjectival grades at all?
> [...]
>
> If that route is HVS 5a why are you bothering with adjectival grades at all?
Don't understand your point - sorry.
Chris
In reply to Al Evans:
I did it behind Binky a couple of months ago. I thought it E1 5a and *** - it isn't polished at all and there are some decent (though small and spaced wires) to keep you out of the drink.
http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/113532189
Chris
I did it behind Binky a couple of months ago. I thought it E1 5a and *** - it isn't polished at all and there are some decent (though small and spaced wires) to keep you out of the drink.
http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/113532189
Chris
In reply to kendogcatchy:
When did you last do it? I did it last year and found myself skittering around on holds that may once have been crimps but had been reduced to rounded polished things that were hard to use. Slipped on it twice once saved by one of the few bits of gear and the second time just managed to hold on. To put it in perspective on the same weekend I lead Sinecure and Grab the slab both of which I found easier. At the time I did Dreamboat I had to wait while some army types abbd down it and I gathered that this was a regular thing. I can see that it was 5a at some point, but it felt a damn sight harder than that to me.
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
> there is no way dream boat annie is a 5b. I am a fat punter whose past glories weren't that glorious and I've done it a few times!
> there is no way dream boat annie is a 5b. I am a fat punter whose past glories weren't that glorious and I've done it a few times!
When did you last do it? I did it last year and found myself skittering around on holds that may once have been crimps but had been reduced to rounded polished things that were hard to use. Slipped on it twice once saved by one of the few bits of gear and the second time just managed to hold on. To put it in perspective on the same weekend I lead Sinecure and Grab the slab both of which I found easier. At the time I did Dreamboat I had to wait while some army types abbd down it and I gathered that this was a regular thing. I can see that it was 5a at some point, but it felt a damn sight harder than that to me.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Hm I found it polished. But maybe I am missing something.
Sooooo I will be there bank hol weekend. If anyone is around and wants to show me up we can have a mass ascent and argue the grade over beer and chips
Hm I found it polished. But maybe I am missing something.
Sooooo I will be there bank hol weekend. If anyone is around and wants to show me up we can have a mass ascent and argue the grade over beer and chips
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
dreamboat annie is the easiest of the routes you mentioned. its hard HVS or easy E1 and its prob 5a and def 3* Its the only one of the mentioned routes i have and would solo and i have climbed dream and sinecure prob 50 times each! the main thing is its not classed as easy HVS in the guide. The book itself brings Pembroke back up to date and is full of inspiring photos even for those of us who have done many of the routes there. Thats my tow-penneth. Wish I could comment on Souls but I have to get stronger (a lot) before i'm on that, the only thing i would say is the angle of the leap shots means souls is the hardest line to visualise but if your at that grade you have probably seen the old rockfax and read the CC guide too.
dreamboat annie is the easiest of the routes you mentioned. its hard HVS or easy E1 and its prob 5a and def 3* Its the only one of the mentioned routes i have and would solo and i have climbed dream and sinecure prob 50 times each! the main thing is its not classed as easy HVS in the guide. The book itself brings Pembroke back up to date and is full of inspiring photos even for those of us who have done many of the routes there. Thats my tow-penneth. Wish I could comment on Souls but I have to get stronger (a lot) before i'm on that, the only thing i would say is the angle of the leap shots means souls is the hardest line to visualise but if your at that grade you have probably seen the old rockfax and read the CC guide too.
In reply to loundsy:
sounds like horses for courses. People have different experiences I just found it harder. Sinecure is pumpy but the holds are good
sounds like horses for courses. People have different experiences I just found it harder. Sinecure is pumpy but the holds are good
I got the new guide a week ago and love it! I think the picture on the front is great as it shows that there are lower grade routes available.
As the weather is no longer guaranteed I like the book as I don't have to spend time looking for new crags as it shows where they are clearly, and of course where the routes are. I won't end up wasting sunny days looking for a crag and being disappointed. For years I had been using the CC guide and will still refer to this when at the crag and to compare grades.
A good guide, well done!
When are you doing one for South Wales and Gower?
As the weather is no longer guaranteed I like the book as I don't have to spend time looking for new crags as it shows where they are clearly, and of course where the routes are. I won't end up wasting sunny days looking for a crag and being disappointed. For years I had been using the CC guide and will still refer to this when at the crag and to compare grades.
A good guide, well done!
When are you doing one for South Wales and Gower?
In reply to VPJB:
Thanks, that was the intention. As Steve Crowe said in his brief review on the Rockfax site, if the cover shot doesn't inspire you, then turn the page.
We have plans for a guide to this area in 2010/11.
Cheers
Alan
> I think the picture on the front is great as it shows that there are lower grade routes available.
Thanks, that was the intention. As Steve Crowe said in his brief review on the Rockfax site, if the cover shot doesn't inspire you, then turn the page.
> When are you doing one for South Wales and Gower?
We have plans for a guide to this area in 2010/11.
Cheers
Alan
In reply to loundsy:
Well I was down at Porth Clais this weekend and re-did "Dreamboat Annie" and I have to say I found it easier than I did the last time. May be it was the weather, may be I was having an off day and didn't know it but I climbed it on Saturday and would have to concur that is is probably 5a, although good 5a with moves that are ok but feel less positive than they actually are. Also I got 8 bits of gear in. Admittedly two were near the start and four were clustered in the break near the top but the main section I had found blank before happily accepted a small alien and a couple of small wires, though I wouldn't like to test them on a fall. So you are right probably top end HVS 5a (or easy E1) and def. worth three stars.
Also did "Aries" which was run out but fun and "Foot and Mouth" which was technically quite easy but a rattling nightmare of looseness at the top.
Well I was down at Porth Clais this weekend and re-did "Dreamboat Annie" and I have to say I found it easier than I did the last time. May be it was the weather, may be I was having an off day and didn't know it but I climbed it on Saturday and would have to concur that is is probably 5a, although good 5a with moves that are ok but feel less positive than they actually are. Also I got 8 bits of gear in. Admittedly two were near the start and four were clustered in the break near the top but the main section I had found blank before happily accepted a small alien and a couple of small wires, though I wouldn't like to test them on a fall. So you are right probably top end HVS 5a (or easy E1) and def. worth three stars.
Also did "Aries" which was run out but fun and "Foot and Mouth" which was technically quite easy but a rattling nightmare of looseness at the top.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Fantastic guide book, lots of inspirational photos. Shame the weekend allowed only a day's climbing. Saw a few other people with the new guides, they must have been selling like hot cakes over the past couple of weeks.
As for beta, I don't really climb hard enough to have to rely on pegs which may or may not be there, but lots of people have or can borrow the CC guide so can check there.
Fantastic guide book, lots of inspirational photos. Shame the weekend allowed only a day's climbing. Saw a few other people with the new guides, they must have been selling like hot cakes over the past couple of weeks.
As for beta, I don't really climb hard enough to have to rely on pegs which may or may not be there, but lots of people have or can borrow the CC guide so can check there.
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