UKC

I was waiting for the usual "Climb Magazine preview" thread, but I see none materializing this month (my luck!) and so I'll post this request here.

You may have noticed on the current (October) issue of Climb Magazine an article - which I wrote - on a list of suggested rock climbs on the Italian side of MB. I'm quite proud of the results (Climb did also a very good job with the graphics): however, I'm getting comments from Italian friends who have read it, saying something on the lines of "Quite useless, as there are no route descriptions, topos etc. Few people will actually go on any of these routes based on this."

Personally, I'm happy people will have to look for themselves for that type of material (route descriptions and topos requires some responsibility on the part of the compiler) and I seriously feel like it's about time to talk of climbing routes in a wider context than the usual "grades, lines etc" mantra.

Also, Brits are normally more adventurous than us Italians when route scouting / finding is concerned. This said, I'm beginning to wonder. Did anyone here find the article "useful" in any form? Not in the sheer practical terms - I really mean, did anyone reading the article think "gee, I really want to know more about these routes so I'll go and climb them one of these days"

Feedback much appreciated, as in the future I would really like to write more in that vein...

In reply to Luca Signorelli: Well, I'll go and get the mag as I'm sufficiently interested to read the article.

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

I'll certainly try to get hold of a copy, too.

The information you provide on this site is excellent and, equally importantly, always presented in a very clear and accessible style.

I'm therefore betting that I'll be inspired to try something from the article next time I'm here (as long as there's some easy stuff in it!). But whatever, I'll let you know once I've read it.

In reply to Luca Signorelli:
I haven't read the article, but climbed the excellent Venus at Dalmazzi on friday. I will seek out the article and find some more classy routes to do!!

In reply to Luca Signorelli: I haven't seen it yet so cannot comment, but from looking through foreign magazines in the past I seem to remember tha they often have detailed topos which would be good enough to pull out and use on the route.
You don't often get this with uk mags.

In reply to Luca Signorelli: Hi Luca,

I thought it was an excellent and very useful piece. Nice to see the shot of Maurizio too!

Cheers,

Jack

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

Luca, have just finished reading it, nice article, inspired to have a look at some of these routes in detail and maybe add to next years trip, and will pop the photo's up on the wall for a reminder.

Nice work!

Scott

In reply to Luca Signorelli: Thanks for the heads up, I will grab a copy. What range of grades are the routes featured ? cheers

Hi guys, thanks for the nice words:

liz j:


Basically one of the main points of the article were exactly to show that the Courmayeur side has plenty of variety - this means the hard classic or extreme routes, and of course the nice, accessible bolted routes at lower altitude like "Venus or Bien Venice" below the Dalmazzi. But there's also plenty of stuff in between, "adventure" routes that are big but not terribly extreme (like the Machetto Dihedral), relatively introductory stuff like the Ottoz-Hurtzeler, big classic like the South Ridge of the Noire, etc. A bit of everything for everyone, of course you've to do a bit of research, but that's part of the mistique of the Italian side.

There's another point too, which is probably even more important. The more climbers come here looking for "something different" (ie adventure, un-bolted or little-bolted routes), the less some people here get tempted to re-equip stuff with the excuse that "otherwise no one will climb it". While this trend is nowhere as overwhelming as it was just few years ago (and in any case Courmayeur has always been a case by itself), I believe British climbers (with their attention not just to ethic stances but also to variety in climbing, can do a lot to preserve adventure in this area.

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

I'm getting a lot of mail which seems to be all variations of the same question "where I can find the topos?" so it looks like my friends were partially right - oh dear!

With one exception, all route topos are available in the documentation indicated in the article OR at the Courmayeur guides bureau (consultation of they "big book of climbing routes" is free, but if you want a copy is 1€ each route. If anything else fails, write me.

The exception is obviously "Power of Love" (the Tony Penning route on Pt. Cresswell) - there you need to check into back issues of Mountain Info on Climb magazine, or ask Tony himself! But that was the point for me including it...

In reply to Luca Signorelli:
Hi Luca
Only got the magazine today, hence the late feedback...

I thought your writing was excellent, as always. Lots of interest in the story around each route, and really good pictures with the articles. My favourite bit is the centrefold panoramas. They've come out really well. Real "wow factor" for anyone who hasn't been to the Italian side before. And even if you know the area well, there is always something interesting to see in them, because they are taken from somewhat different viewpoints.

But I thought for the average UK alpinist this was a pretty advanced article. Not many UK alpinists have guides other than the old Alpine Club ones (and/or Damilano's newer snow and ice guides), so the article could have referenced the routes back to there, helping bring those AC descriptions a bit more up-to-date and signposting what are real classics. (In the AC guides, almost everything is "classic" or "highly recommended" ... but then, it is a select guide.) I've got the Bassinini guides, but I don't think you can buy them in Britain: likewise the other French and Italian guides referenced.

If being brutally frank, maybe the article falls a bit between a discussion of the spirit of the area and ethos, and a hit list of classics? With the former, you'd get more good routes mentioned, although only briefly covered. With the latter, you'd get all the paraphenalia of maps, grades, descriptions and topos for each of a smaller selection of routes.

Choice and ordering of routes a bit eclectic. They're not ordered historically or by difficulty. Nero su Bianco, in particular, an odd opening invitation, since it's modern, intimidating, difficult and not documented in books (you can get topo on Planetmountain). No idea if it has even been repeated, but I'm not sure you'll get queues of Brits seeking that one out...

Despite this critique, I enjoyed the article lots. In fact, it's the reason I bought the magazine, and was a breath of fresh air from the regurgitated stuff you spot having read them for 20 years.

In fact, I bought Vertical magazine at the same time as Climb. That's got a really interesting article on apline rock routes on the Gran Paradiso. Inspried to go there too now.

Tony

In reply to Luca Signorelli: Luca, I got the magazine today, and yes it did inspire me to think about a visit to the area and maybe climb some of the routes. I wouldn't expect a magazine article to include detailed topos, because if I'm visiting the area I'm going to get a guidebook of some sort.

One point - there are a couple of routes where you don't give any indication of the grade. You definitely should try to include that in future articles, so that people have a bit of an idea as to whether it's worth pursuing a route.

In reply to Luca Signorelli:
Was on the Italian side this summer and thoroughly enjoyed the difference from being based in Cham! Would be equally as happy if it was just as quiet next year! Great article and no doubt I'll try and visit some of the routes you mention.
Cheers, Jerry

In reply to TonyM:

These are reasonable criticisms but they should have been dealt with by the editor rather than by Luca. Likewise, Luca's Italian English is always enjoyable on here but again, the editor's hand could have been waved delicately over the article in a few places.

Imho Luca submitted a first rate article but he has been let down by lazy editing. No wonder magazine sales are dropping.


Spot on!

In reply to Solaris:
Imho Luca submitted a first rate article but he has been let down by lazy editing. No wonder magazine sales are dropping.

Usually I don't bother replying to this kind of criticism of Climb, but as I edited Luca's piece and this stuck out as being so far from reality, I've got to respond. I put in many hours editing Luca's drafts, (we had quite a few). I'm not being critical here of Luca, as you say he did a brilliant job, and I thought his passion really shone through in the writing. I would have loved to have had 16 pages like Alpinist or even Vertical but Climb is a different mag. I like feedback, and it's good to know where we could have improved but throw away comments like lazy editing are just lame.

In reply to Ian Parnell:

OK -- fair enough. Thank you for your hard work on translating the piece and, since I have in the past encouraged Luca to publish, I hope my criticism of the way it was handled by Climb won't discourage him. Would that we had more writers with his passion for and knowledge and love of the sport.

However, I don't think you should be too hard on yourself. To my mind, ultimate responsibility for the literary aspects of what appears in Climb must be borne by the editor rather than translators. I mean, we don't blame Andy Kirkpatrick for being dyslexic but the climbing world would be a much poorer place without his editors' work. If the English in his pieces is flawed, it's their fault, not his.

To back up my criticism: on the first page, I noticed the following places where I felt improvements could have been made:

2nd sentence
If the S side of Mont Blanc really is "terra incognita" surely it can't be "no secret" that this is the case?

Para 3
"It's really a wild place."
Read: "It's a really wild place." Or "It really is a wild place."

"The fact that all the guarded huts on the Italian side now feature better food and better hospitality than the rest of the massif is becoming quite a big plus."
Insert "do those elsewhere in" between "than" and "the".

Para 4
"Two [routes] are quite exotic endeavours and may be of interest to the truly adventurous."
The "may be" seems a bit weak and unclear: might "will be" express the intended sense more accurately? "Endeavours" isn't vernacular English in a climbing article, I would say. "Outings", maybe?

"Still, this is what the Italian side is all about -- enjoying the sun, the unspoilt nature, the remoteness and the hospitality while sticking your nose in places where not many others would like to go"
2 comments: "the unspoilt nature" is a bit awkward. And, call me an anally retentive stickler, but "sticking your nose in places where not many others would like to go" does seem a bit infelicitous. Perhaps the following might capture what Luca had in mind. "Still, this is what the Italian side is all about -- the sun and unspoilt nature, the hospitality, and being in remote places where not many people choose to go."

Since you have named yourself in your post <respect!!>, I ought perhaps to come out from behind the cloak of anonymity and say that my name is Andrew Moore. So far as I can recall, I have not criticised climbing magazine articles on here before but I have done a bit of editing of a different kind, so I hope you won't take my criticism as being too cheap or unconsidered.

In reply to TonyM:

Hi Tony, nice feedback and interesting points.


All the references may be bought or found locally (means in Chamonix or
Courmayeur). Guidebook references were put in because the books themselves are largely available, but this said, none of the books listed can be considered something like a “definitive reference” (the Buscaini get probably closer). I believe that for ALL routes listed (and for ALL climbing in the Italian side), until something new will be published (who knows, maybe one day…) the best way to get information is to go to the Guide bureau in Courmayeur, or to check at the Monzino or the Dalmazzi.

A side note on the Bassanini – and risking Gio’s wrath: it’s a nice reference list and provides some useful pointer, but must be taken with a lot of salt in the grades / details department. Not all Bassanini’s fault, btw.



I think that “a discussion of the spirit of the area and a hit list of classic” is precisely what the article intended to be (I leave to others to judge the degree of success) within the obvious limitations given by magazine space (something for which I believe “Climb” was very generous with me) and the necessity to make a reasonable balancing act between giving information and not turning the whole thing into a local tourism bureau leaflet.


The routes are ordered in the classic SW to NE direction, and the Ottoz – Hurtzeler should have been the first (“Nero Su Bianco” got the opening almost by chance). But I’m perfectly happy with fate deciding this way, because, “Nero Su Bianco” inclusion is really a (mild) provocation of sort. “Nero Su Bianco” has got a fair share of repeats (I believe no more than 10 to 15) but you’re right, I don’t expect Brits queuing up to get there… but that’s EXACTLY why I’ve included it (beside that, by all account, is a great route).

To lure people into relatively little know areas, nowadays you see two types of routes presented in climbing magazines:

1)The “old classic you REALLY need to add to your climbing resume” type
2)The “you may climb without too much risk because is bolted” type (aka the “pleasure” routes)

I could have easily compiled a tick list exclusively with these two types of lines (the Dalmazzi area has plenty of them) but at the end of the day, if you really just need to climb 1 or 2, well, just stay in the Aiguilles, buy Michel Piola guide on the Envers, and spend the rest of your climbing life there, and I guarantee you’ll be happy. My point is NOT that Courmayeur must compete with Cham – my point is that Coumayeur is different!

Four out of the six route included are really of type 1 or 2 – and so the meat & potatoes of the article. But “Nero Su Bianco” (and, to a lesser extent, “Power of Love”) were inserted because they’re different stuff – the “spices” to make the “meal” taste better. I really believe “Nero” was a big gamble on Oviglia’s part: he wanted to demonstrate that you can still open on Mt. Blanc a long, boltless, fairly difficult but not really extreme (or dangerous) line on good rock, without having to fall back to the usual Piola-like tactics (not that’s anything wrong with what Piola did, but we don’t want to see the area turning into on homogeneous copy of the Aiguilles or the satellites!). So the idea for “Nero su Bianco” inclusion was “if you’ve the grade, and you feel like, here’s the opportunity to climb something really different in the 'adventure' side, without having to go to the Freney or some other remote and dangerous place”.

“Power of Love” was included because I think that Tony Penning message is – there’s still room for a lot of new route development here, and not necessarily of the bolted variety!

I’ve discussed this with Oviglia almost to death, and we’re both convinced the full climbing potential of this side of the NW Alps (not exclusively the Italian side of MB) will be never fulfilled if we insist on presenting these areas just like poor relations to Chamonix or Briancon. A failure to do so would simply give more fuel to the arguments of the “if we don’t spit it no one will climb it” crowd, with predictable consequences.

In reply to Solaris:

I want to be absolutely clear on this:

1) There was no "translation" - I provided the text already in English. By the way, it was (deliberately) three times larger that the allotted space, and Ian did a terrific job BOTH reducing the text to manageable side AND correcting the spelling. ALL errors are the product of my own work.

2) I’m all too happy to share all Climb editing decision, as they were thoroughly discussed with me well in advance. Not sure about the level of English, but again, I wrote that, so I must take the responsibility of the result!

In any case, thanks for the feedback.

In reply to Solaris: OK Ive calmed down now, Baby is in bed and I can relax, well actually start some Climb mag work! I was the editor not translator and you are right I should take a large responsibility for how the piece turned out. It is good to have feedback, your detailed points are all well made and valid, it was just the use of the term lazy that got me going. I actually think the piece is very good, it would have been much easier for us to have done another Cordier Pillar classic-bagging piece but we tried to do something a bit different, I think we came very close to getting it right. Give me a pay rise, a quarterly mag and twice the space and I'll give you perfection. In the end we published a slightly imperfect but ambitious piece, and I've more pride in that than a polished repetition of the usual fayre.

In reply to Luca Signorelli:
luca , i think your writing on here is always excellent and informative and will buy climb (which i would nt normally bother with )to read the article. However,what would get me to do some of the routes you mention would be just what your friends have said : a detailed description of a 2 or 3 classics to get me started. why ? when i was young and had no commitments i climbed full time six months or so a year. i looked for new areas and took pleasure in doing my own research and trying new places, down to translating guides with dictionaries, inevitably i spent a lot of time following false trails (in many senses) but i had the time and money to so . nowdays, with work and family commitments, time and money for climbing is limited, so both are precious (time particularly)and not to be wasted. this means i m more likley to go back to places i know well or that friends have been to. the only thing that gets me to venture away from this is a solid first hand account that means myself and partner will have a very good chance of a succesfull trip (not neccesarlily topping out, but having a decent crack at a couple of routes and having a good crack). much as it seems you are against it, you are just the person to write "courmayer rock for dummies ".
mike

In reply to Luca Signorelli and Ian Parnell:

First of all, sorry for the mistake -- I see that Ian said "edited" rather than "translated". I should have spotted that.

I hope my original post made clear that I liked Luca's article; naturally I also hope that he and Climb will continue the partnership. Maybe eventually Luca will publish that book in English some of us were encouraging him to write a few months ago.

On climbing magazines -- My introduction to them was via Mountain magazine and articles like Luca's were pretty regular features of it. With climbing becoming ever more commercialised, we need their independent voice more than ever, so I hope that Climb goes from strength to strength.