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So, you tie a figure of eight and any excess is tidied up with a stopper knot. BUT, is putting the excess rope back through the middle of the eight any safer/better/easier. I understand this is common in Europe.
In reply to old un:
Id guess its probably safer tied through the middle to be honest. My stopper knot it always coming undone, feeding it through Ive never seen undo. I'm sure the knot itself stresses the rope a little more in a fall since its not as neat and tidy, but since when did a rope ever fail at the knot?
Easier? Well both take all of a couple seconds.
Id guess its probably safer tied through the middle to be honest. My stopper knot it always coming undone, feeding it through Ive never seen undo. I'm sure the knot itself stresses the rope a little more in a fall since its not as neat and tidy, but since when did a rope ever fail at the knot?
Easier? Well both take all of a couple seconds.
In reply to old un: Really, the stopper knot isn't neccessary with a figure 8 - it just makes sure you have left a long enough tail. (Vital with a bowline though, which is perhaps why we use it so much in the UK).
In reply to old un: A stopper knot with a figure of eight is not necessary as long as the tail is long enough...
The reason a stopper knot was introduced was that if you had the correct lenght to tie a stopper knot...there was no issues with the lenght of your excess rope.
Beware of feeding the rope back through the figure of eight..common on sport climbs...but not best practice , as easier for the knot to work loose as far as im concerned
The reason a stopper knot was introduced was that if you had the correct lenght to tie a stopper knot...there was no issues with the lenght of your excess rope.
Beware of feeding the rope back through the figure of eight..common on sport climbs...but not best practice , as easier for the knot to work loose as far as im concerned
In reply to old un:
I always do a stopper knot, but it almost always half comes undone by the time I'm halfway up. They're pretty useless really, I'm convinced they're not much more than a way of making it all look a little more tidy, as I doubt a figure of eight is going to come undone.
I always do a stopper knot, but it almost always half comes undone by the time I'm halfway up. They're pretty useless really, I'm convinced they're not much more than a way of making it all look a little more tidy, as I doubt a figure of eight is going to come undone.
In reply to old un: A lot of folk who come on my courses think they are tying stopper knots, when in fact it is usually something like a loosely tied overhand knot, not butted up and snug to the fig 8 - no wonder they work loose.
First tie your neat fig 8, then tighten it one strand of rope at a time. Then tie a fishermnans knot snug up against the fig 8 and tighten - this is the stopper.
A well tied fig 8 doesnt really need a stopper, but it has kind of become expected practice these days.
To rethread the end of the fig 8 back through the middle of itself could theoretically cause the fig 8 to turn back on itself and unravel when subjected to certaiun crossloading strains (belay krab opposite tieing in krab)and therefore not recommended.
Cheers
David
First tie your neat fig 8, then tighten it one strand of rope at a time. Then tie a fishermnans knot snug up against the fig 8 and tighten - this is the stopper.
A well tied fig 8 doesnt really need a stopper, but it has kind of become expected practice these days.
To rethread the end of the fig 8 back through the middle of itself could theoretically cause the fig 8 to turn back on itself and unravel when subjected to certaiun crossloading strains (belay krab opposite tieing in krab)and therefore not recommended.
Cheers
David
In reply to chip d:
Wait, so the stopper knot isn't needed, yet feeding the rope through is makes it easier for the knot to work loose? Trying to see the sense in that... If the 'feeding through' works loose your left with the exact situation of no stopper knot.
...And the figure of 8 doesnt rely solely being tight to due its job, it goes 'tighter' as soon as its loaded, can't see how it works loose at all. I think this is another thread where a whole load of untested unproven dummy science is passed of as truth and we're all left confused.
> (In reply to old un) A stopper knot with a figure of eight is not necessary as long as the tail is long enough...
> The reason a stopper knot was introduced was that if you had the correct lenght to tie a stopper knot...there was no issues with the lenght of your excess rope.
>
> Beware of feeding the rope back through the figure of eight..common on sport climbs...but not best practice , as easier for the knot to work loose as far as im concerned
> The reason a stopper knot was introduced was that if you had the correct lenght to tie a stopper knot...there was no issues with the lenght of your excess rope.
>
> Beware of feeding the rope back through the figure of eight..common on sport climbs...but not best practice , as easier for the knot to work loose as far as im concerned
Wait, so the stopper knot isn't needed, yet feeding the rope through is makes it easier for the knot to work loose? Trying to see the sense in that... If the 'feeding through' works loose your left with the exact situation of no stopper knot.
...And the figure of 8 doesnt rely solely being tight to due its job, it goes 'tighter' as soon as its loaded, can't see how it works loose at all. I think this is another thread where a whole load of untested unproven dummy science is passed of as truth and we're all left confused.
In reply to jackcarr:
You need to learn to tie them properly then!
Chris
> (In reply to old un)
>
> I always do a stopper knot, but it almost always half comes undone by the time I'm halfway up.
>
> I always do a stopper knot, but it almost always half comes undone by the time I'm halfway up.
You need to learn to tie them properly then!
Chris
In reply to old un:
I feed the rope back through the fig 8 knot back towards the harness as it keeps it away from the live rope which I want to be able to get straight away to clip.
I feed the rope back through the fig 8 knot back towards the harness as it keeps it away from the live rope which I want to be able to get straight away to clip.
In reply to GrahamD:
Thats the thing that makes it possible for the knot to invert on itself and eventually roll undone
Thats the thing that makes it possible for the knot to invert on itself and eventually roll undone
In reply to Silum: you asked for advice on this forum , if you not open for advice....dont bother asking advice...
The figure of eight does not need a stopper as long as the excess rope is long enough(as previous posters have mentioned)
Feeding the excess rope through the finished figure of eight makes it easier for the knot to work loose.....
The figure of eight does not need a stopper as long as the excess rope is long enough(as previous posters have mentioned)
Feeding the excess rope through the finished figure of eight makes it easier for the knot to work loose.....
In reply to old un:
We tie a stopper knot so that the rethreaded Fo8 does not come undone, yet we all acknowledge that a Fo8 tightens and grips itself as it gets loaded. So, we also add that the stopper knot takes care of the excess rope (tail), and this prevents us from grabbing the the tail and putting it into the quickdraw, it also stops the tail from flapping around and hitting you in the eye or nuts. I personaly would not lose any sleep if there was no stopper knot. However, I do use a Yosemite finish on my Fo8 (not when I am instucting though), and I have tried countless times to get it to undo. I've pulled it every concievable way, and I've threaded the rope every way possible, and then yanked it it again and again, yet it won't unravel.
So, can someone point me to a link that will tell me the Fo8 without a stopper knot will undo, or a Fo8 with a Yosemite finish will unravel.
We tie a stopper knot so that the rethreaded Fo8 does not come undone, yet we all acknowledge that a Fo8 tightens and grips itself as it gets loaded. So, we also add that the stopper knot takes care of the excess rope (tail), and this prevents us from grabbing the the tail and putting it into the quickdraw, it also stops the tail from flapping around and hitting you in the eye or nuts. I personaly would not lose any sleep if there was no stopper knot. However, I do use a Yosemite finish on my Fo8 (not when I am instucting though), and I have tried countless times to get it to undo. I've pulled it every concievable way, and I've threaded the rope every way possible, and then yanked it it again and again, yet it won't unravel.
So, can someone point me to a link that will tell me the Fo8 without a stopper knot will undo, or a Fo8 with a Yosemite finish will unravel.
In reply to escalator:
I demonstarte it unravelling on every SPA and CWA course that I run. Pretty easy to make it happen.
I demonstarte it unravelling on every SPA and CWA course that I run. Pretty easy to make it happen.
Guarantee you'll have a hard time getting the 'yosemite finish' (thanks for the name) to completely unravel.
As for the Fig 8 with a stopper knot... far easier... the fact you can easily demonstrate it proves that! The stopper knot does easily come undone when whacked against the rock / handled without care, and the fig 8 itself is capable of untieing itself...
I think anyone suggesting that the fig 8 alone is bomb proof is suggesting fairly bad practice. I'll concede that the stopper knot itself is a fairly not-needed product of redundancy, but if you teach people JUST the fig8, then undoubtedly they will eventually do a fig8 with a couple inches of slack leftover and that WILL be liable to feeding back through.
The yosemite finish still comes off on top imo. Also makes clipping less problematic for those inclined toward disaster.
As for the Fig 8 with a stopper knot... far easier... the fact you can easily demonstrate it proves that! The stopper knot does easily come undone when whacked against the rock / handled without care, and the fig 8 itself is capable of untieing itself...
I think anyone suggesting that the fig 8 alone is bomb proof is suggesting fairly bad practice. I'll concede that the stopper knot itself is a fairly not-needed product of redundancy, but if you teach people JUST the fig8, then undoubtedly they will eventually do a fig8 with a couple inches of slack leftover and that WILL be liable to feeding back through.
The yosemite finish still comes off on top imo. Also makes clipping less problematic for those inclined toward disaster.
In reply to David Hooper:
Make a vid of it and post it on youtube. I'm sure I won't be the only one interested to see it come undone.
As far as I am concerned if you tie a Fo8 and pull it all tight (why wouldn't you) then it is not going to come undone. Same goes for a Fo8 with a YF that is pulled tight.
Has anyone got some vid of it that show it coming undone. I'm always happy to change my ways in the interests of safety, especially for mine and moreso for that of any clients/students.
Make a vid of it and post it on youtube. I'm sure I won't be the only one interested to see it come undone.
As far as I am concerned if you tie a Fo8 and pull it all tight (why wouldn't you) then it is not going to come undone. Same goes for a Fo8 with a YF that is pulled tight.
Has anyone got some vid of it that show it coming undone. I'm always happy to change my ways in the interests of safety, especially for mine and moreso for that of any clients/students.
In reply to old un:
Whilst I've been on the computer I have (once again) done a search for a rethreaded Fo8 coming undone, and once again it throws up nothing.
Can anyone give me a link to something that shows or proves that a Fo8 can unravel; under normal circumstances, and useage, given that it is tied correctly and tightened.
By the way, I'm going to bed now.
Whilst I've been on the computer I have (once again) done a search for a rethreaded Fo8 coming undone, and once again it throws up nothing.
Can anyone give me a link to something that shows or proves that a Fo8 can unravel; under normal circumstances, and useage, given that it is tied correctly and tightened.
By the way, I'm going to bed now.
In reply to escalator:
Actually, I must admit - Ive just gotton a rope out and played with this and yes, the knot has to be fairly loose and I have to work at it for it to roll and fail. So maybe unlikely to happen in real life - but with the direction of pull of opposite krabs in a belay situation coupled with the force of a high factor fall making it even a slight possibility - why take a chance?
A neatly tied and tightened fig 8 with proper snugged up stoper is still safer in my subjective opinion for Leading outdoor routes.
For indoors and sport I use a bowline and stopper, purely for speed of tying and conveniencve.
Actually, I must admit - Ive just gotton a rope out and played with this and yes, the knot has to be fairly loose and I have to work at it for it to roll and fail. So maybe unlikely to happen in real life - but with the direction of pull of opposite krabs in a belay situation coupled with the force of a high factor fall making it even a slight possibility - why take a chance?
A neatly tied and tightened fig 8 with proper snugged up stoper is still safer in my subjective opinion for Leading outdoor routes.
For indoors and sport I use a bowline and stopper, purely for speed of tying and conveniencve.
I was always told you tied a stopper knott on a fo8 to prevent the rare but potential occurance of th knot inverting on itself and walking off the end of the rope. Never had any trouble with my stoppers coming undone.
In reply to escalator:
Can't give you that, but you might be interested in some destructive testing we did on sloppily-tied figure eights with no tails, and then with the last turn/tuck ommitted. They all held big falls repeatedly; the fo8 is the uber-knot; very forgiving.
> Can anyone give me a link to something that shows or proves that a Fo8 can unravel; under normal circumstances, and useage, given that it is tied correctly and tightened.
Can't give you that, but you might be interested in some destructive testing we did on sloppily-tied figure eights with no tails, and then with the last turn/tuck ommitted. They all held big falls repeatedly; the fo8 is the uber-knot; very forgiving.
In reply to old un:
another good reason to teach a Fo8 knot with neatly tied stopper to beginners in an indoor environment is related to the abuse ropes get from top roping.
Basically the sheath can slip down the core of the rope. Since the Sheath is melted to the core at the end of the rope the resulting tension can cause some strands of the core to rip. Using a stopper on the Fo8 knot will make sure that the knot is tied far enough away from the end of the rope where the core strands are still intact.
another good reason to teach a Fo8 knot with neatly tied stopper to beginners in an indoor environment is related to the abuse ropes get from top roping.
Basically the sheath can slip down the core of the rope. Since the Sheath is melted to the core at the end of the rope the resulting tension can cause some strands of the core to rip. Using a stopper on the Fo8 knot will make sure that the knot is tied far enough away from the end of the rope where the core strands are still intact.
In reply to old un: FWIW i have it on good authority that putting the excess back through the Fo8 has been cited as the reason for knot failure in several accidents (sport climbing).
In reply to David Hooper:
Perhaps you could explain how you demonstrate it then?
jk
> (In reply to escalator)
> Happy to in dirt world, but I cant really in cyber space.
> Happy to in dirt world, but I cant really in cyber space.
Perhaps you could explain how you demonstrate it then?
jk
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I think I can tie them properly, and they've never come undone on any of my ropes, until I got some skinny dry treated Beal half ropes. With these, the stopper knots always come undone sooner or later.
> > I always do a stopper knot, but it almost always half comes undone by the time I'm halfway up.
> You need to learn to tie them properly then!
I think I can tie them properly, and they've never come undone on any of my ropes, until I got some skinny dry treated Beal half ropes. With these, the stopper knots always come undone sooner or later.
In reply to old un:
I usually tie a stopper knot, out of habit rather than any real need - stops the loose end flapping about.
However, when I'm instructing with kids, I usually use the trick of poking the loose end back through the knot - due to their size, it means that if they fall off, they are less likely to get a lump of knot in the face.
I usually tie a stopper knot, out of habit rather than any real need - stops the loose end flapping about.
However, when I'm instructing with kids, I usually use the trick of poking the loose end back through the knot - due to their size, it means that if they fall off, they are less likely to get a lump of knot in the face.
In reply to David Hooper:
So you say. I've tested the knot in plenty of falls and I'm perfectly happy with it - after all the extra tuck back hasn't altered the fundamental structure of the knot. If you are referring to cross loading the knot (for want of a better term), I don't particularly like the thought of cross loading any type of common tie in knot and its something I try to avoid.
So you say. I've tested the knot in plenty of falls and I'm perfectly happy with it - after all the extra tuck back hasn't altered the fundamental structure of the knot. If you are referring to cross loading the knot (for want of a better term), I don't particularly like the thought of cross loading any type of common tie in knot and its something I try to avoid.
In reply to GrahamD:
Graham
The knot can be cross loaded in a typical trad belaying situation. One krab leading to anchors and one on opposite side of knot to belasy device and leader with Fall factor 2 potential.
All theoreticaL STUFF -i KNOW - BUT WHY NOT ADOPT THE THEORETICALLY SAFER PRACTICE? (sorry cap lock came on)
Graham
The knot can be cross loaded in a typical trad belaying situation. One krab leading to anchors and one on opposite side of knot to belasy device and leader with Fall factor 2 potential.
All theoreticaL STUFF -i KNOW - BUT WHY NOT ADOPT THE THEORETICALLY SAFER PRACTICE? (sorry cap lock came on)
In reply to ksjs:
Who is this "good authority" and let's have the references please. I have used this method of finishing the knot ever since seeing it in Nigel Shepherd's guide to rope techniques. If it is unsafe, then I'd like to hear about it from a reliable source, not third hand on UKC.
> (In reply to old un) FWIW i have it on good authority that putting the excess back through the Fo8 has been cited as the reason for knot failure in several accidents (sport climbing).
Who is this "good authority" and let's have the references please. I have used this method of finishing the knot ever since seeing it in Nigel Shepherd's guide to rope techniques. If it is unsafe, then I'd like to hear about it from a reliable source, not third hand on UKC.
In reply to Toreador:
Yep, I've had exactly this problem too with these ropes.
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> I think I can tie them properly, and they've never come undone on any of my ropes, until I got some skinny dry treated Beal half ropes. With these, the stopper knots always come undone sooner or later.
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> I think I can tie them properly, and they've never come undone on any of my ropes, until I got some skinny dry treated Beal half ropes. With these, the stopper knots always come undone sooner or later.
Yep, I've had exactly this problem too with these ropes.
In reply to David Hooper:
Thats one reason I use the belay loop !
I think the term 'theoretically safer practice' is fraught - given that to my knowledge most accidents are attributable to people mistakes and I don't know any instances of knots failing.
I think what you mean is "theoretically slightly stronger knot"
Thats one reason I use the belay loop !
I think the term 'theoretically safer practice' is fraught - given that to my knowledge most accidents are attributable to people mistakes and I don't know any instances of knots failing.
I think what you mean is "theoretically slightly stronger knot"
In reply to Lurkio: i wont quote on here as it was said informally whilst climbing and i dont really remember how categorical they were being but theyre not prone to hyperbole and it is their job to know their stuff
In reply to ksjs:
It doesn't matter who said it - are the incidents to which he/she refers documented anywhere ?
It doesn't matter who said it - are the incidents to which he/she refers documented anywhere ?
In reply to ksjs:
The trouble is that such anecdotes are utterly worthless and simply cloud the issue further. Still, if nobody posted unsubstantiated assertions, UKC would be a very quiet place!
=P
> (In reply to Lurkio) i wont quote on here as it was said informally whilst climbing and i dont really remember how categorical they were being but theyre not prone to hyperbole and it is their job to know their stuff
The trouble is that such anecdotes are utterly worthless and simply cloud the issue further. Still, if nobody posted unsubstantiated assertions, UKC would be a very quiet place!
=P
In reply to old un: i just tie on with a yosemite bowline and stopper.....find it easier, dont know bout the safty implications tho
In reply to Lurkio:
Re: the threaded back on itself knot coming undone. From memory it was in an old AMI journal... of which I have no detail. The tied back method was implicated but never proved in a couple of instances - abroad. It was the fashion for a while. It could be inferred that since it's not "taught" any more there may be a reason behind it.
I always thought it was a solution looking for a problem.
Of course this sheds no further light on the subject.
Tying your knots snug and well dressed is always my number one call when this topic crops up.
Re: the threaded back on itself knot coming undone. From memory it was in an old AMI journal... of which I have no detail. The tied back method was implicated but never proved in a couple of instances - abroad. It was the fashion for a while. It could be inferred that since it's not "taught" any more there may be a reason behind it.
I always thought it was a solution looking for a problem.
Of course this sheds no further light on the subject.
Tying your knots snug and well dressed is always my number one call when this topic crops up.
In reply to GrahamD: not sure and yes, im sorry for bringing up hearsay. i will do my best to provide something definitive at some point.
In reply to old un:
I have used both methods back through and with the single fishermans.
these days I use the single fisherman on both Fo8 and Boeline. The rethreaded version I have used. Although I have never had experince or seen it unroll in fact the opposite it tightens so much that to get it undone (after a lob) requires almost superhuman strength and twisting.
I have use dthe method on a bow line although have put the standard fisherman on too. the know is neater but it does not really give anything to the knot.
A instructor friend of mine some years ago had the back threaded figure of eight tested for strength and the results came out as the same as normal stopper.
As to my 2 cents worth I go for the fishermans every tie butted up to the knot nice and tight NOT loose! 30 cm further down the rope. Dress the knot neatly and ensure your rope belay loop is not too large. Double check it before setting off.
I have used both methods back through and with the single fishermans.
these days I use the single fisherman on both Fo8 and Boeline. The rethreaded version I have used. Although I have never had experince or seen it unroll in fact the opposite it tightens so much that to get it undone (after a lob) requires almost superhuman strength and twisting.
I have use dthe method on a bow line although have put the standard fisherman on too. the know is neater but it does not really give anything to the knot.
A instructor friend of mine some years ago had the back threaded figure of eight tested for strength and the results came out as the same as normal stopper.
As to my 2 cents worth I go for the fishermans every tie butted up to the knot nice and tight NOT loose! 30 cm further down the rope. Dress the knot neatly and ensure your rope belay loop is not too large. Double check it before setting off.
In reply to ksjs:
I'd be genuinely interested if you do - after all I have a vested interest since the fig 8 with threaded tail is my main method for tying in when trad climbing.
I'd be genuinely interested if you do - after all I have a vested interest since the fig 8 with threaded tail is my main method for tying in when trad climbing.
In reply to old un: I was taught by a couple of guys from Austria who used neither. As a result, I just tie a figure of 8 with a tail of about 4". Never even come close to coming undone so I can only conclude that a stopper knot doesn't really add much apart from extra bulk.
In reply to Jon Dittman:
I'm pretty much the same unless I misjudge the amount of rope and have to tidy it up.
I've only ever had one problem with a fig 8 in the last decade or so. That was one 'crossloaded' in a hanging belay that kept trying to roll over itself. Whether it'd have stopped or not I'm not sure, I never gave it the chance. Since it was one of two knots loaded similarly (the other was fine) I think it was probably just sloppily tied/dressed.
jk
> ...I just tie a figure of 8 with a tail of about 4". Never even come close to coming undone so I can only conclude that a stopper knot doesn't really add much apart from extra bulk.
I'm pretty much the same unless I misjudge the amount of rope and have to tidy it up.
I've only ever had one problem with a fig 8 in the last decade or so. That was one 'crossloaded' in a hanging belay that kept trying to roll over itself. Whether it'd have stopped or not I'm not sure, I never gave it the chance. Since it was one of two knots loaded similarly (the other was fine) I think it was probably just sloppily tied/dressed.
jk
In reply to Jon Dittman:
I'm relatively new at this game, but I read in a Jingo book that you need a *minimum* of 10cm slack (approx 4inch) at the end of a fig 8, "In a shocking fall, a knot will easily tighten and pull through around 100mm".
Perhaps stoppers are there to ensure you have at least this amount of slack...it takes more than 10cm slack to tie one (gets the ruler out)?
Ah, reading earlier in the same book..."Often a small stopper knot is used to tie up this loose end, but it is of no stength or significant importance. It does however add safety for a beginner in that you need around 30cm to tie the stopper and thereby alerts you if you have forgotten to leave a good end".
Dunno - I don't necessarily believe everything I read in books but include here for (non-flaming) comment
I'm relatively new at this game, but I read in a Jingo book that you need a *minimum* of 10cm slack (approx 4inch) at the end of a fig 8, "In a shocking fall, a knot will easily tighten and pull through around 100mm".
Perhaps stoppers are there to ensure you have at least this amount of slack...it takes more than 10cm slack to tie one (gets the ruler out)?
Ah, reading earlier in the same book..."Often a small stopper knot is used to tie up this loose end, but it is of no stength or significant importance. It does however add safety for a beginner in that you need around 30cm to tie the stopper and thereby alerts you if you have forgotten to leave a good end".
Dunno - I don't necessarily believe everything I read in books but include here for (non-flaming) comment
In reply to ahaynes: AFAIK the stopper does nothing except exactly what you describe i.e. ensure enough tail. i know several experienced sport climbers that dont re-thread the loose end or put a stopper on for precisely this reason (Mr MacLeod iirc does not tie a stopper)
In reply to ahaynes:
Relatively new or not, have 10 points for an excellent post.
Keep reading them books!
Relatively new or not, have 10 points for an excellent post.
Keep reading them books!
In reply:
Everyone is quickly skipping a fundamental aspect of "the Fig.8":
which dressing is used,
and which end is loaded?
This matters as to what you get if you tuck the tale out with the
eye legs. As I noted in another thread, typically there is no given
specification here, re which of the two parallel ends should be
the loaded one. And, yes, both work. But regarding the possible
consequences of tucking out the tail, one has different knots in
effect depending on the base knot.
In one case, if one pulls (too) hard on the tucked-out tail, it
can shift in position and undo its "8" into an Overhand.
Generally, the tail-tuck comes with the insistence on first taking
the tail around the loaded strand AND THEN tucking it out --this
will preclude that becomes-an-Overhand transformation.
The coming-undone that Hooper is pointing out is that of "ring-loading",
and he describes the situation (using the Fig.8 eye qua belay loop) in
which it might occur. It's not the case that otherwise the knot is more
likely to loosen; though it has been said that it will be more easily
untied after being fallen upon, with the extra tuck.
The Fig.8 itself can be seen as an old eye knot that has an additional
tuck -- and, here again, there are two main versions of this (matching
each of the two (which-end-gets-loaded) versions of the F8.
Lyon Equip tested both main versions of the Fig.8 and concluded that
strengths were roughly equal. Dave Merchant has another symmetric
version which he maintains is stronger than some but easier to untie;
but it seems rather awkward to dress.
So, beware all of these "Figure 8"s : what's true of one might not be
of another.
*kN*
Everyone is quickly skipping a fundamental aspect of "the Fig.8":
which dressing is used,
and which end is loaded?
This matters as to what you get if you tuck the tale out with the
eye legs. As I noted in another thread, typically there is no given
specification here, re which of the two parallel ends should be
the loaded one. And, yes, both work. But regarding the possible
consequences of tucking out the tail, one has different knots in
effect depending on the base knot.
In one case, if one pulls (too) hard on the tucked-out tail, it
can shift in position and undo its "8" into an Overhand.
Generally, the tail-tuck comes with the insistence on first taking
the tail around the loaded strand AND THEN tucking it out --this
will preclude that becomes-an-Overhand transformation.
The coming-undone that Hooper is pointing out is that of "ring-loading",
and he describes the situation (using the Fig.8 eye qua belay loop) in
which it might occur. It's not the case that otherwise the knot is more
likely to loosen; though it has been said that it will be more easily
untied after being fallen upon, with the extra tuck.
The Fig.8 itself can be seen as an old eye knot that has an additional
tuck -- and, here again, there are two main versions of this (matching
each of the two (which-end-gets-loaded) versions of the F8.
Lyon Equip tested both main versions of the Fig.8 and concluded that
strengths were roughly equal. Dave Merchant has another symmetric
version which he maintains is stronger than some but easier to untie;
but it seems rather awkward to dress.
So, beware all of these "Figure 8"s : what's true of one might not be
of another.
*kN*
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