This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
so who uses a overhand knot to join two ropes for an abseil ? i always used a double fishermans but a climbing mate says the overhand is the way to go (hello chris if ya read this lol i had to ask mate ) ive tried both and they both work but wow does the overhand look dodgy .
In reply to Rich35:
The Overhand is favoured by many and is the easiest to tie. Apparently it is less likely to snag on edges. I suppose a good idea would be to practise using it on little crags so you get used to the notion.
The Overhand is favoured by many and is the easiest to tie. Apparently it is less likely to snag on edges. I suppose a good idea would be to practise using it on little crags so you get used to the notion.
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC): yes i agree thats what i have started doing .i know its ok but was just saying looks dodgy compared to a double fish
In reply to Rich35:
Overhand's the best knot to use, just don't use a figure of eight - that really is dodgy!
Overhand's the best knot to use, just don't use a figure of eight - that really is dodgy!
In reply to Joe G: yes indeedee
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
Dont get carried away with the long tails or you might abseil off them one day...
I find a second overhand tight against the first offers the same degree of (unneccessary) reassurance.
> I now use overhand with long tails
Dont get carried away with the long tails or you might abseil off them one day...
I find a second overhand tight against the first offers the same degree of (unneccessary) reassurance.
In reply to JoshOvki:
overhand for me every time.
overhand for me every time.
In reply to cathsullivan:
Single overhand, pulled tight, with long tails. If there's no possibility of snagging I may used a double fisherman’s for psychological reasons and it's a little bit easier to undo.
> (In reply to Rich35)
>
> I use a single overhand, assuming the ropes are of the same diameter.
>
> I use a single overhand, assuming the ropes are of the same diameter.
Single overhand, pulled tight, with long tails. If there's no possibility of snagging I may used a double fisherman’s for psychological reasons and it's a little bit easier to undo.
In reply to Rich35: I think as long as you know what you're doing they're fine but doesn't it have the nick name the alpine death knot or is that a different one. I think it's been discussed on here before.
Like anything know what you're doing.
Cheers
Toby
Like anything know what you're doing.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to Rich35: I use an overhand, actually 2, one snugged up against the first. I think it's best to keep things simple, this knot fits the bill for me. I agree though, it looks like it should just fall apart, but then so does the clove hitch to my eyes. Doesn't stop me using either.
In reply to Rich35:
Use whatever you are happy with. Personally I'm happy with a single overhand knot.
Use whatever you are happy with. Personally I'm happy with a single overhand knot.
In reply to Toby_W:
That's a figure of eight (super dodgy as mentioned above).
> nick name the alpine death knot
That's a figure of eight (super dodgy as mentioned above).
In reply to cathsullivan:
I regularly use an overhand on ropes of slightly different diameters (say 8.5mm and 9.5mm).
I recently tried tying together a 10.5mm and a length of 6mm cord and hanging and bouncing on them (at the wall, above a crash pad) - the knot tightened itself up and locked just fine. I'm not advocating using the overhand to tie together such disparate diameter ropes - but its not worth being paranoid about them being *exactly* the same.
I regularly use an overhand on ropes of slightly different diameters (say 8.5mm and 9.5mm).
I recently tried tying together a 10.5mm and a length of 6mm cord and hanging and bouncing on them (at the wall, above a crash pad) - the knot tightened itself up and locked just fine. I'm not advocating using the overhand to tie together such disparate diameter ropes - but its not worth being paranoid about them being *exactly* the same.
In reply to Will Sheaff:
The overhand is often referred to as the Euro Death knot. Whether it is more or less Death than an American Death Triangle is up for debate
The overhand is often referred to as the Euro Death knot. Whether it is more or less Death than an American Death Triangle is up for debate
In reply to JoshOvki: You would change your mind if you did 20 full rope length abseils on a wet rope in freezing conditions with a storm brewing and night drawing in. Overhand with long tails every time for me.
Al
Al
In reply to Rich35: As long as the ropes are the same thickness and they have long tails then no danger
In reply to Rich35: Agreed, once the double fisherman's been weighted, it's a pain in the arse to untie; especially with cold hands!
In reply to Rich35: Some info here regarding double overhand knot:
http://www.needlesports.com/advice/abseilknots.htm
http://www.needlesports.com/advice/abseilknots.htm
In reply to Reach>Talent:
I hope the disappearance of the Noggin' on these discussions doesn't mean that one of his knots has failed...
I hope the disappearance of the Noggin' on these discussions doesn't mean that one of his knots has failed...
In reply to Reach>Talent:
Would it make a difference to people's opinion if I referred to a double fishermans with reef knot combo as a "Paranoid Punter Knot" ?
> (In reply to Will Sheaff)
> The overhand is often referred to as the Euro Death knot. Whether it is more or less Death than an American Death Triangle is up for debate
> The overhand is often referred to as the Euro Death knot. Whether it is more or less Death than an American Death Triangle is up for debate
Would it make a difference to people's opinion if I referred to a double fishermans with reef knot combo as a "Paranoid Punter Knot" ?
In reply to Rich35:
The overhand definately gets snagged less, hence it's popularity.
The most important thing is to have at least 2ft tails and that the knot is snug and appears tidy, and have same diameter ropes
Can be doubled to prevent the extremely unlikely unfolding over itself down the tails, but this reduces the original advantages of it's use.
The overhand definately gets snagged less, hence it's popularity.
The most important thing is to have at least 2ft tails and that the knot is snug and appears tidy, and have same diameter ropes
Can be doubled to prevent the extremely unlikely unfolding over itself down the tails, but this reduces the original advantages of it's use.
In reply to Cragrat Rich:
At 2' is verging on the paranoid. You are running the real risk of clipping into the tails when they are too long ! 1' tails are fine - in the rare event the knot wasn't tightened in the first place and does a single 'roll', it will only use an inch or so. As to same diameter ropes, see my post earlier. Similar diameter is all you need.
At 2' is verging on the paranoid. You are running the real risk of clipping into the tails when they are too long ! 1' tails are fine - in the rare event the knot wasn't tightened in the first place and does a single 'roll', it will only use an inch or so. As to same diameter ropes, see my post earlier. Similar diameter is all you need.
In reply to GrahamD: YOu know what they say - just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you...'
So I for one will continue to use the ppk (actually double fishermans by itself) thanks very much!
So I for one will continue to use the ppk (actually double fishermans by itself) thanks very much!
In reply to GrahamD:
OMG! You mean you don't use a triple fishermans backed up with a pair of overhands?
Personally I tend to use a double overhand or an overhand depending on how likely I think the rope is to jam.
> Would it make a difference to people's opinion if I referred to a double fishermans with reef knot combo as a "Paranoid Punter Knot" ?
OMG! You mean you don't use a triple fishermans backed up with a pair of overhands?
Personally I tend to use a double overhand or an overhand depending on how likely I think the rope is to jam.
In reply to Rich35:
I use an over hand doen twice with them dressed well and cranked up tight against one another. making sure the load (bit on the Krab /tat / etc) is on a rope section and not the knot.
I have heard the single overhand called the european death knot and some one is doing lectures on how they roll at the slightest touch. I have personnaly tried to replicate this 'slight touch roll' and have yet failed. I have got it to roll when it was tied scruffily with different diameters and the mved around over edges but a well dressed one not yet.
doubling the thing up and cranking them tight against one anothe and ensuring that load is on the rope not the knot section and I am 100% trusting of it.
Double fishermans and figure of eight usually results in a scary prusac
I use an over hand doen twice with them dressed well and cranked up tight against one another. making sure the load (bit on the Krab /tat / etc) is on a rope section and not the knot.
I have heard the single overhand called the european death knot and some one is doing lectures on how they roll at the slightest touch. I have personnaly tried to replicate this 'slight touch roll' and have yet failed. I have got it to roll when it was tied scruffily with different diameters and the mved around over edges but a well dressed one not yet.
doubling the thing up and cranking them tight against one anothe and ensuring that load is on the rope not the knot section and I am 100% trusting of it.
Double fishermans and figure of eight usually results in a scary prusac
In reply to errrrm?:
Would never use two overhand knots as its more likely to snag. Have direct experience of this.
Whilist rapping in Verdon a few years ago a passing Frenchman noticed I was using an overhand knot. He dashed over insiting that if I "wanted to die" then to use that knot, if I didn't want to die then he suggested using a double fishermans.
He wouldn't actually let me abseil with an overhand knot so I had to tie a double fishermans just so I could rap down - and keep him happy.
There are some stats somewhere about overhand knots rolling etc... that were posted when there was a similar discussion a few years ago on here.
In practice it is unlikely that an abseil would generate forces that would cause an overhand knot to role. However, they can role and sometimes do, hence why its wise to leave long tails.
> (In reply to Rich35) I use an overhand, actually 2, one snugged up against the first.
Would never use two overhand knots as its more likely to snag. Have direct experience of this.
Whilist rapping in Verdon a few years ago a passing Frenchman noticed I was using an overhand knot. He dashed over insiting that if I "wanted to die" then to use that knot, if I didn't want to die then he suggested using a double fishermans.
He wouldn't actually let me abseil with an overhand knot so I had to tie a double fishermans just so I could rap down - and keep him happy.
There are some stats somewhere about overhand knots rolling etc... that were posted when there was a similar discussion a few years ago on here.
In practice it is unlikely that an abseil would generate forces that would cause an overhand knot to role. However, they can role and sometimes do, hence why its wise to leave long tails.
In reply to liz j:
There is a chance but tbh if you don't check this kind of thing beofre you set off more fool you.
1. check anchors
2. check knots
3. check you are on the right ropes both of em
4. check prusac
5. check harness
6. remove cows tail and head off.
take sunder a minute and you will live a lot longer.
> (In reply to Cragrat Rich)
> 2 ft is too long, on a cramped stance there is a real risk of attaching your abseil device to the wrong ends.
> 2 ft is too long, on a cramped stance there is a real risk of attaching your abseil device to the wrong ends.
There is a chance but tbh if you don't check this kind of thing beofre you set off more fool you.
1. check anchors
2. check knots
3. check you are on the right ropes both of em
4. check prusac
5. check harness
6. remove cows tail and head off.
take sunder a minute and you will live a lot longer.
In reply to balti boy:
From a friend of a friend of a friend, no doubt - who almost certainly read it on a thread like this and regurgitated it as 'fact'.
> I have heard the single overhand called the european death knot and some one is doing lectures on how they roll at the slightest touch.
From a friend of a friend of a friend, no doubt - who almost certainly read it on a thread like this and regurgitated it as 'fact'.
In reply to GrahamD:
LOL in deed hence i reckon its rollox
> (In reply to balti boy)
>
> [...]
>
> From a friend of a friend of a friend, no doubt - who almost certainly read it on a thread like this and regurgitated it as 'fact'.
>
> [...]
>
> From a friend of a friend of a friend, no doubt - who almost certainly read it on a thread like this and regurgitated it as 'fact'.
LOL in deed hence i reckon its rollox
In reply to Adam Ellwood: So, a random Frenchman physically restrained you, preventing your descent until you reconfigured your ropework? I know what I'd have told him to do. I don't condone being rude, but there's nothing foolhardy about the overhand knot, especially when it is advertised by training centres.
How many folk have had an overhand knot fail during an abseil?
How many folk have had an overhand knot fail during an abseil?
In reply to Reach>Talent:
>
The keeps coming round: the Euro Death Knot is the F o 8 (because of the way it can open up under pressure) and not the overhand knot.
Not enough nots/knots in my sentence!
Chris
>
> The overhand is often referred to as the Euro Death knot. Whether it is more or less Death than an American Death Triangle is up for debate
The keeps coming round: the Euro Death Knot is the F o 8 (because of the way it can open up under pressure) and not the overhand knot.
Not enough nots/knots in my sentence!
Chris
In reply to errrrm?: Like this one:
http://www.pyb.co.uk/information/top-tips/top-tips-retreating.php
http://www.pyb.co.uk/information/top-tips/top-tips-retreating.php
In reply to Adam Ellwood:
>However, they can role and sometimes do, hence why its wise to leave long tails.
In the unlikely event that the knot wasn't tightened by hand before use, the knot would not roll more than once under abseil load, tightening as it does so. It might have rolled maybe an inch. Foot long tails are more than adequate.
Leaving loooong tails is not only unneccessary, its also potentially dangerous for the reasons explained above.
>However, they can role and sometimes do, hence why its wise to leave long tails.
In the unlikely event that the knot wasn't tightened by hand before use, the knot would not roll more than once under abseil load, tightening as it does so. It might have rolled maybe an inch. Foot long tails are more than adequate.
Leaving loooong tails is not only unneccessary, its also potentially dangerous for the reasons explained above.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
No, that's wrong. The Euro Death Knot referred - at least originally - to the overhand. See eg http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
> The keeps coming round: the Euro Death Knot is the F o 8 (because of the way it can open up under pressure) and not the overhand knot.
No, that's wrong. The Euro Death Knot referred - at least originally - to the overhand. See eg http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
In reply to qwerty:
I'm still not sure about this - he starts talking about the overhand then says:
The failure mode of this knot is to invert (flip / capsize / roll). This leaves topologically the exact same knot, just with shorter tails. You can observe this yourself. Tie a loose figure-eight knot and pull (using a figure-eight makes it easier to flip). You'll have to help flip it around with your hands. If you do this enough times, you can make the knot roll all the way off the ends of the ropes, and you've got a failure.
which is all about the F o 8!
Chris
I'm still not sure about this - he starts talking about the overhand then says:
The failure mode of this knot is to invert (flip / capsize / roll). This leaves topologically the exact same knot, just with shorter tails. You can observe this yourself. Tie a loose figure-eight knot and pull (using a figure-eight makes it easier to flip). You'll have to help flip it around with your hands. If you do this enough times, you can make the knot roll all the way off the ends of the ropes, and you've got a failure.
which is all about the F o 8!
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I was under the impression that abbing on a figure 8 knot was more of a british peculiarity and it was misplaced scorn of the more continental practice of using an overhand that caused the name 'Euro death knot' to appear.
It is perfectly simple to join two ropes securely and safely with a figure of 8 it just leaves the tails lying back along the rope which means you then end up prussiking back up them when they jam
I was under the impression that abbing on a figure 8 knot was more of a british peculiarity and it was misplaced scorn of the more continental practice of using an overhand that caused the name 'Euro death knot' to appear.
It is perfectly simple to join two ropes securely and safely with a figure of 8 it just leaves the tails lying back along the rope which means you then end up prussiking back up them when they jam
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I don't think so Chris. It's the overhand that's called that as it LOOKS unsuitable for the job. It's the eight that IS unsuitable for the job.
As for long ends... John Barry almost died due to long ends when he put his device on them instead of the rope!
I don't think so Chris. It's the overhand that's called that as it LOOKS unsuitable for the job. It's the eight that IS unsuitable for the job.
As for long ends... John Barry almost died due to long ends when he put his device on them instead of the rope!
In reply to Chris Craggs:
The key phrase is 'using a figure-eight makes it easier to flip' - he is just illustrating how a knot (in general) can invert, so chooses to make the point with one that *easily* inverts.
Still not convinced? See also http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/2009/03/euro-death-knot.html or many other references.
I remember when the overhand started gaining prominence for abseiling, the ensuing Usenet discussions, and the coining of the EDK term.
> I'm still not sure about this ...
The key phrase is 'using a figure-eight makes it easier to flip' - he is just illustrating how a knot (in general) can invert, so chooses to make the point with one that *easily* inverts.
Still not convinced? See also http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/2009/03/euro-death-knot.html or many other references.
I remember when the overhand started gaining prominence for abseiling, the ensuing Usenet discussions, and the coining of the EDK term.
In reply to Reach>Talent:
How? Is this some sort of fig of 8 version of a water knot?
> It is perfectly simple to join two ropes securely and safely with a figure of 8 it just leaves the tails lying back along the rope which means you then end up prussiking back up them when they jam
How? Is this some sort of fig of 8 version of a water knot?
In reply to speekingleesh:
Tie a loose figure 8 in one rope. Now rethread the knot with the other rope but in reverse (so you start from the top of the knot rather than the bottom) you end up with a pair of 8s with a live rope out of each end and a tail at each end. This won't pull apart but will snag on absolutely everything.
Tie a loose figure 8 in one rope. Now rethread the knot with the other rope but in reverse (so you start from the top of the knot rather than the bottom) you end up with a pair of 8s with a live rope out of each end and a tail at each end. This won't pull apart but will snag on absolutely everything.
In reply to jon:
Cheers for that - an expert always helps!
So in summary - the overhand knot is also know as the UDK - though in actuality it is safe, even with quite short tails. And the F o 8 which has no such moniker is the dangerous one - no wonder folks get confused eh?
Chris
Cheers for that - an expert always helps!
So in summary - the overhand knot is also know as the UDK - though in actuality it is safe, even with quite short tails. And the F o 8 which has no such moniker is the dangerous one - no wonder folks get confused eh?
Chris
In reply to speekingleesh:
yes it is a fig 8 version of a water knot.
yes it is a fig 8 version of a water knot.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
EDK perhaps?
EDK perhaps?
In reply to Rich35:
Always overhand with tails (although my double fisherman's always seems to go wrong. At least overhand is easy to tie)
Always overhand with tails (although my double fisherman's always seems to go wrong. At least overhand is easy to tie)
In reply to Vivvi:
At least overhand is easy to tie)
You'd think so, wouldn't you? But it's a minimal knot which needs to be tied carefully, so that it's uniformly snug and without twists.
Long tails are good but it bears repeating that there is a real danger of mistaking a long tail for one of the abseil ropes.
> (In reply to Rich35)
At least overhand is easy to tie)
You'd think so, wouldn't you? But it's a minimal knot which needs to be tied carefully, so that it's uniformly snug and without twists.
Long tails are good but it bears repeating that there is a real danger of mistaking a long tail for one of the abseil ropes.
In reply to qwerty:
So he shows how one knot can invert by using a different knot - very scientific!
Chris
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
> The key phrase is 'using a figure-eight makes it easier to flip' - he is just illustrating how a knot (in general) can invert, so chooses to make the point with one that *easily* inverts.
>
> Still not convinced? See also http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/2009/03/euro-death-knot.html or many other references.
>
> I remember when the overhand started gaining prominence for abseiling, the ensuing Usenet discussions, and the coining of the EDK term.
>
> Still not convinced? See also http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/2009/03/euro-death-knot.html or many other references.
>
> I remember when the overhand started gaining prominence for abseiling, the ensuing Usenet discussions, and the coining of the EDK term.
So he shows how one knot can invert by using a different knot - very scientific!
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
To be fair, in the tables at the bottom of the page he presents figures for both figure of eight and overhand knots, these show how many times the knot rolled and the magnitude of the applied force that caused the knot to roll.
I have come across this page that I haven't seen mentioned on UKC before, with links to a report on similar tests for a variety of knots - in case their is anyone who hasn't been sent to sleep by this stuff yet:
http://www.bwrs.org.au/?q=research
Does anyone have links to testing done on knotted ropes of different diameters?
To be fair, in the tables at the bottom of the page he presents figures for both figure of eight and overhand knots, these show how many times the knot rolled and the magnitude of the applied force that caused the knot to roll.
I have come across this page that I haven't seen mentioned on UKC before, with links to a report on similar tests for a variety of knots - in case their is anyone who hasn't been sent to sleep by this stuff yet:
http://www.bwrs.org.au/?q=research
Does anyone have links to testing done on knotted ropes of different diameters?
In reply to EddInaBox:
I thought the best knot was a double fisherman on top of another(guess it has a proper name?), so you get a knot that is and looks very safe, with a low risk of snagging?
I thought the best knot was a double fisherman on top of another(guess it has a proper name?), so you get a knot that is and looks very safe, with a low risk of snagging?
In reply to Ztephan: No, to listen to accounts on this thread (and countless similar), using a double fishermans guarantees that your ropes will get stuck - which accounts for the 1,000s of climbers of my generation who are still stuck on cliffs around the globe waiting for rescue!
Theoretically the overhand knot, aka European Death Knot is best for 'not' jamming as it asymetrical- personally I've never understood this argument, yes if you pull it there's a 50% chance the flat side will pass an obstruction, but surely there's a 50% chance that the sticky out bit is even more likely to jam? Anyway I don't care - the last time a rope of mine jammed was in 1991 descending the Ponte De L'Innominata, so I'm sticking with the PPK unless a partner insists different.
What a boring discussion this is.
Theoretically the overhand knot, aka European Death Knot is best for 'not' jamming as it asymetrical- personally I've never understood this argument, yes if you pull it there's a 50% chance the flat side will pass an obstruction, but surely there's a 50% chance that the sticky out bit is even more likely to jam? Anyway I don't care - the last time a rope of mine jammed was in 1991 descending the Ponte De L'Innominata, so I'm sticking with the PPK unless a partner insists different.
What a boring discussion this is.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Yes, with a regular DFK, but if you put them on top of each other they won't snag, this is the knot I use, have never had problems with it.
Tried googling for half an hour to fin a pic to show you, but had to take my own pic, yes, wild difference in diameter, but you get the idea.
http://picasaweb.google.no/stephan.gaassand/Diverse#5395487158231161650
Yes, with a regular DFK, but if you put them on top of each other they won't snag, this is the knot I use, have never had problems with it.
Tried googling for half an hour to fin a pic to show you, but had to take my own pic, yes, wild difference in diameter, but you get the idea.
http://picasaweb.google.no/stephan.gaassand/Diverse#5395487158231161650
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Actually Rob, it doesn't do that. It ALWAYS rolls so that the flat side is down when it comes to an edge or something. Really, it does. I don't know why...
You can say that again!
> , yes if you pull it there's a 50% chance the flat side will pass an obstruction, but surely there's a 50% chance that the sticky out bit is even more likely to jam? >
Actually Rob, it doesn't do that. It ALWAYS rolls so that the flat side is down when it comes to an edge or something. Really, it does. I don't know why...
> What a boring discussion this is.
You can say that again!
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
At least we might get a new knot name - PPK - into the lexicon of climbing terms
>
> What a boring discussion this is.
At least we might get a new knot name - PPK - into the lexicon of climbing terms
In reply to Rich35:
Overhand with long tails for the past 15 years. Before that the double fishersman. It's quick and simple though I do remember it felt too simple intitally when trying it out after years of using the double fishermans...!
Overhand with long tails for the past 15 years. Before that the double fishersman. It's quick and simple though I do remember it felt too simple intitally when trying it out after years of using the double fishermans...!
In reply to jon:
Thanks for your concern.
Maybe the Search function failed (the OP); he could find all this
discussed at
www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=358560&v=1#x5233990
and many other threads beyond that.
(-;
> (In reply to mkean)
>
> I hope the disappearance of the Noggin' on these discussions doesn't mean that one of his knots has failed...
>
> I hope the disappearance of the Noggin' on these discussions doesn't mean that one of his knots has failed...
Thanks for your concern.
Maybe the Search function failed (the OP); he could find all this
discussed at
www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=358560&v=1#x5233990
and many other threads beyond that.
(-;
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...