UKC

I'd be interested to hear about some Alpine routes up to about AD which are actually quite a bit more demanding than the grade might suggest. Chances are the challenge will be due to the route being complicated, committing or just very long, rather than due to excessive technical difficulties. These routes could be seen as Alpine sandbags, but another way of looking at it is that they provide a great mountaineering experience at an accessible level. Something with which to get your Alpine trip off to a good start.

One route I have in mind is the traverse of the Pelvoux in the Ecrins, which gets a humble PD. I sure wouldn't have wanted to do that as one of my first Alpine routes. The ascent to the summit is pretty straightforward, if a little dangerous due to stonefall in the Coolidge Couloir (on the day we were there, someone got hit in the shoulder and had to be helicoptered off). We actually soloed the Mettrier Couloir instead (no stonefall there), which is meant to be AD but felt pretty staightforward.

The crux of the traverse was definitely the descent, which seemed to take forever and involved route finding, abseiling over a bergschrund off a rock buried in the glacier snow , a fair bit of scrambling and 8 abs in 4 separate sections, though at least the ab stations were equipped. Whilst never technically hard and never despertate, there was quite a lot to deal with and it just kept coming. Pretty good value for a PD!

We made the summit in the guidebook time of about 5 hours but the descent then took about 10 hours. We were slowed down a little by being in a group of three and also by getting stuck behind another party on the abseils, but even without these inconveniences it would have taken a lot longer than the guidebook time. I suspect the glacier has deteriorated somewhat since the AC guide came out and at one point it's now necessary to do a scramble and a series of abseils on side rather than simply going down the glacier.

In reply to Misha:

If you've led E3 don't even consider doing anything under D, I think you'd be severely disappointed, it's basically just scrambling. Start at bare min AD.

How about the traverse of the Chamonix Aguillies?
Can I join you!!!

A

In reply to A Chorlton Climber:


Ridiculous, I think, to make that generalisation. An E3 leader could quite easily have difficulty on a pd, many of them are seriously exposed, and need different skills (crampons and ice axes if a glacier route). Rock routes at AD are technically easy, but can be pretty long and not easy if weather changes on routes. Plus, if you're only used to 10m e3's, then an AD that is 10 pitches can be quite something.

In reply to Misha:
The Forbes Arete on the Aig du Chardonnet is great value at AD!

In reply to A Chorlton Climber:

The travers of the Chamonix Aiguilles is a major route for confirmed alpinists... It would be consider a crowing achievement for most amateur climbers.

In reply to the OP:

The traverse of the Drus is one I would have liked to have done but have never felt up to, also any route on the Aiguille Verte. Not technical sandbags but all worthy of respect.

In reply to liz j:

It was graded PD+ previously! I had a friend who lost toes after a forced bivouac on the descent.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: The descent off the Forbes (off the Chardonet really), has long been known as quite serious, mostly because it involves descending a steep (c 45 degree), snow couloir that will have been in the sun for hours, then a snow slope that often has a yawning bergschrund all the way across it.

In reply to Misha:

A few people seem to think that the contamine mazeaud is a bit of a wee cheekster for AD, felt a bit like that to me but I was having a bad day, had a bit of a moment leading out on the steep bit near the base of the route. But then I'm a softie.

In reply to Misha: Brenva Spur. Dependent upon conditions and it's been a long time since I did it but the Brenva Spur felt about AD. There's the North Spur on the Courtes that's about AD if you don't climb the rock pillar.

Al

In reply to Misha:

Hiya

The Swiss Alps has some great AD/ D alpine ridges that give long outing and great value for money. Arbangrat on the Obergablehorn + any ridge on the Zinal Rothhorn.

Ecrins: Barre Noire followed by the NE (?) ridge on the Barre De Ecrins gave us a great (easy) snow ascent then quite airy mixed arete to the summit, coming down the normal route, which can be a fun bum slide! I did the Pelvoux traverese in 2000. yep the descent was quite an adventure. Also worth checking out is the Traverse of the Sailouse (not sure of spelling) this this is the ridge to the left of the Pelvoux. The traverse is D, with moving together as well as pitches of Severe / VS 4b max depending on the line. A great route. There's also lots of more technical stuff on the flanks that have bolt rap anchors.

Cham: Forbes is great, but agree that descent can be hairy. The traverse of the Grepon & the South Ridge Integral on the Moine are both long trips out on rock. The Grepon can be enchained with the Chamoz before too for a super long day out from the bivi. (both D) If you fancy some good AD type snow/icy/mixed, then the Tacul Triangle has the Left edge & Contamine Massaud routes are both fine & varied, and taking the snowy North Ridge to the 4200m summit makes for a complete mountain day. It also has the advantage of having a well trodden PD- descent, but care needed as ever in the afternoon if you are coming down late.

have fun

alex

In reply to Misha:

Not sure what traverse of the mieja goes at these days, but I shat myself.

J

In reply to Misha:
Have a look at the Aiguille Dibona in the Ecrins. The weather is often more reliable down there and the Dibona has some good routes that are just outside the back door of the hut.

In reply to Moacs:

The Traverse of the Meige in the Ecrins is one of the best routes I've ever done. Covered in snow for quite a bit, (post bad weather) we had more rock work in crampons than we bargained for. The S. Ridge gives good value for AD. The full traverse to the Aigle hut is sensational and ups the whole outing to D.

In reply to Misha:

I'd say the Shreckhorn normal route would fit the bill. It gets D but I've also seen it given AD/AD+. Mostly excellent rock, relatively remote, fabulous longish hut walk. It's certainly one of the best mountaineering experiences I've had in the last few years. It'll never be too crowded given the 5 hr hut walk (and the miserable hut gardien I've mentioned on another thread - but you can ignore him!)

In reply to Misha:

The midi-plan traverse can be quite a challenge. I think it comes down to the exposure. I've been a little more scared on these snow ridges than on rock.

In reply to A Chorlton Climber:
I wouldn't dismiss routes below AD as there are some great routes at PD/+. They might not be that hard technically but can still be very enjoyable and can sometimes be quite demanding, which is the point of the thread. Besides, I like Alpine scrambling. Somehow it's more enjoyable than struggling up a Chamoniard grade IV fissure in big boots.

Here are some of the PD/+ routes that I've really enjoyed and would recommend: Aig du Moine normal route (route finding is the main challenge), Domes de Miage, Weismeiss traverse, Les Courtes traverse, Tour Ronde normal route, Liskamm traverse (gets AD but I don't think it is really in decent conditions) - and of course the Pelvoux traverse.

As for the Chamonix Aiguilles traverse, I tried that last year and here's what happened http://www.solihullmc.org.uk/Midi-Grepon.pdf . I'd like to go back and finish it off one day. Actually I don't think it's that hard technically (we didn't get to the technical cruxes but I think it doesn't get above V/+ and then only for short sections) but as I imagine you know it's a long and committing route which calls for a lot more than pure rock climbing ability.

In reply to fishy1:

Spot on.


I suppose that depends on how good their trouser belts are...

In reply to Misha:
>

Rather interesting in descent as well, especially as we didn't go up that way!!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Les Drus traverse looks pretty awesome but is graded D, or do you have a very old guide book where everything is PD? I wonder whether there's been a bit of Alpine grade creep recently. The Vallot guides (late 80s?) seem to be pretty severe on grades compared to more recent guides. Of course some routes will have been affected by glacial retreat etc.

In reply to Alex Shipp:
Tried the Barre des Ecrins traverse this year but conditions weren't great. The couloir hadn't frozen properly for most of the way (nice ice section at the top though) and it was very windy when we got to the ridge so that wasn't on, instead traversed into the motorway up to the Dome. From what we did and saw it looked like a fair route at AD.

In reply to Misha:

No, I think it was D for the traverse, but as already said there are D's and D's Maybe the normal route is AD, I haven't go my book handy, but it's the length and the complicated descent that have always prevented me from having a go. The Forbes Arret was definitely PD+ in the old British guide book though.

PS. I'd advise the S E ridge of the Moine rather than the S face but it is not in the category which the original post was asking about, a good standard training climb.

In reply to Removed User:
Hmmm, I wouldn't say the Midi-Plan is 'actually quite demanding', PD+ or AD is fair for decent conditions.

In reply to Misha:

I agree but it is exposed in places and you can die on it pretty quickly. That, I think, is the oddity of alpine grades.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Yes, the Forbes Arete was PD sup in the guide in 1972. Also mentioned above was the Zinal Rothorn, Voie Normale, (AD-) which was a straight PD when I did it in 1967, and didn't seem undergraded at all. Something like the Biancograt on Piz Bernina, given a straight AD in 1971, felt many times more difficult and serious. Overall, about the same standard as the Forbes Arete, taking in the quite serious descent from the Chardonnet, but rather more of an undertaking because of its size and relative remoteness.

In reply to Misha:

>If you've led E3 don't even consider doing anything under D, I think you'd be severely disappointed, it's basically just scrambling. Start at bare min AD.

Alpine grades are a bit of a mystery and tend to lead to confusion. Why pure rock routes are given these grades is beyond me. A perfectly safe route with maybe a few 6c pitches can recieve ED+... Whereas a true Alpine D can be a totally lethal undertaking. I think this is what has fooled Chorlton who posted the top para...

In reply to Misha:

It demands good technique and speed. Were you guided on it?

In reply to Misha:

I was just thinking about this Misha... I did this in 1983 and therefore my recollection of it is far from clear in my mind. But one thing I'm sure of was that there was no difficulty in the descent - technical or route finding. Now it could be that a whole chunk of memory is missing or that we are not talking the same descent - which given your description is more than likely. I remember descending a glacier and at a given point (maybe marked with a cairn) we cut R off the glacier, over some moraine and soon picked up a steep path which led to the valley... Can you shed any light on this? It doesn't sound the same as your route at all, does it?

In reply to jon:

There's a complex historical issue behind that. Basically, the French adjectival scale was created foruse on alpine routes in transition period between the golden age of the Welzenbach/UIAA scale (the one "closed" going from I to VI grade) and the opening of the same in late 70's. The original meaning of FAS was to give the overall difficulty (including seriousness, objective danger). However, as it was popularized by publications as the last two volumes of the Vallot guide, it did somehow lose its original functions as a lot of people stated climbing shorter, "non alpine" rock climbs. The idea became to extend the FAS to these different items. But this way, of course the overall grading (beside mere technical difficult) had somehow to go, and the FAS became a purely technical scale.

The second problem is that it was developed when the UIAA/Walzenbach scale was closed. The insistence on keeping grade VI as the top of the scale created a parallel problem with the FAS, as this way older routes had to be automatically downgraded because of the mere technical difficulty. The results was a situation where you may have the Frendo spur graded D or D+ as the Hirondelles ridge of the Grandes Jorasses (a far more strenous, remote and serious route), because taken singularly no technical move of the Hirondelles is harder than the Frendo (which is not stricly true in any case, but that's the way it was felt back then). You may get a lot of those "odd couples" browsing any old Vallot or AC guide: SE ridge of the Aiguilles des Glaciers <-> Tournette Spur; Rebuffat route on the Midi <-> Innominata Ridge; South face of the Dent du Geant <-> West Face of the Aiguille Noire etc. By the way, that's also the same reason behind all those V grades that mysteriously turns out to be F6a or higher.

When the UIAA scale was opened at the end of the 70's, something like that was attempted for the FAS, so the EX and ABO grades where introduced. However, the real problem (this means, the fact that the adjectives originally mean the overall difficulty, not just the technical one) meant that the problem has been never solved, and it wont be until the double value scale (seriousness/difficult) will completely replace the FAS.

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

Hmmm, and added to that is the fact that most alpine routes are so conditions dependent. A Difficile in July may be a TD- in August, or indeed it could be an AD+.... That's why I don't take much notice of alpine grades but have a healthy respect for them, whatever they are.

There is a world of difference between an 'Alpine Route' and a rock climb in an alpine setting. Here I'm thinking Grandes Jorasses vs. Envers des Aiguilles. (OK that's maybe not extreme enough as some of the Envers routes are subject to 'alpine' conditions - maybe a better comparison might be the Aiguilles Rouges...) But even so, to give Tout va mal ED - no pitch harder than 6b+ - the same adjectival grade as The Walker is just plain silly.

That was the point of my earlier post... people who've never experienced a true Alpine Difficile could never have an idea of the potential horrors in store!

In reply to Misha:

Was going to suggest the north ridge of the Weismiss as I thought that was a bit stiff at AD, but actually it's in the guide at D. So maybe it's actually soft at D...? Well, top route anyway.

Agree with comments on the Forbes Arete. Tricky descent.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

That's because guidebooks at that time seemed to pick grades at random. I have used some that are still "current" to more obscure areas and the grades are utterly unrelated to difficulty of the climbs described. Comparing grades between climbs I have done in the Zermatt area to Colomb's guide from teh 1970s is quite ammusing - they are just nonsense! Although there is still quite a large range covered by grades, particularly the AD grade, modern books are much more consistent.

In reply to MG:

Strangely enough, I don't remember it bothering us in the least. I guess we were just a lot less interested in grades than the modern generation.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

The written descpritions were perhaps a bit more detailed at times. I have copies of the MB guides going back to the fifties and the description of Route Major (for example) gets more and more detailed as you go back in time. Whether it gets more accurate is another matter. Experience of using a Collomb guide to the Gran Paradiso region suggests it may or may not, but you will not know until you are on a route!

In reply to MG:

I believe that all grades of those classic guidebooks for the MB area were those of the Vallot guide, plus or minus some translation for the British system. And the Vallot ratings were relatively accurate for their age.

The problem with other areas is that they were awfully under-documented, or the documentation was quite obscure/difficult to find. The Labande guide for the Ecrins got available from 1978, and Gran Paradiso from 1980. Last but not least - grades are notoriously variable from area to area. D in the Ecrins meant usually AD in Chamonix, AD in Zermatt usually translated PD in Gressoney etc.

In reply to MG:
>

That's because (sticking to your example) Brenva faces routes got far more traffic 30 years ago than now. After 1980 attendance of those big routes went into decline (nothing related to global warming - people simply lost interest) The Major route was more or less ignored for more or less 10 years after the by rockfall under col Moore in mid-90's. There's now a big return of interested for those "super classic", so you'll see more documentations as time passes.

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

I have a guidebook to the Pennine Alps Central. It's not THAT old, but has evidentally just reproduced large sections of a much older book. In one description, can't remember which, but might be the Cresta de Santa Caterina, it states that an early start BY LANTERN LIGHT is essential!

In reply to jon:

That's interesting, because I've checked my copy of the old 1960 CAI guide to Monte Rosa (the one authored by Silvio Saglio) and there's a comment on the Santa Caterina ridge entry stating that "a partenza a lume di candela" is essential!

In reply to Luca Signorelli:


I am huge fan of the Italian guides which are beautifully produced and almost works of art, particulalry Gino Buscani's (sp?). Curious to hear about the grading discrepancies between regions but grades from the old British guides all seem to be about a full grade below currently accepted grades. Interestingly the Gran Paradiso guide does not give grades at all but is still very useable even for those with very little Italian and much better than the 1960s Collomb guide. If anyone knows where I can get a copy of the Yeld and Coolidge guide from about 1890, I would pay handsomely!

In reply to MG:

They were all desperately inaccurate, indeed frequently dangerously misleading, so we really didn't take them at all seriously. They basically pointed you in roughly the right direction.

In reply to Misha:


The route is not technically hard but you need very good route finding and rope management skills. I led most of the route in the summer of 2007 and I didn't have any problems with rope management or navigation. For me it seemed quite ok with the Rebuffat description but I know people who have been helicoptered of the route blaiming Rebuffat.

Best training for hard alpine is doing easier alpine with similar characteristics (technical grade and length being most important factors).

In reply to Misha:

How about the Lagginhorn via the South ridge? Deceiving route - AD grade. 3 abseils. Deceptive though

In reply to MG:

Gran Paradiso 1980 was the last great guidebook written by Renato Chabod (who did also most of the drawings, alla based on his own paintings), and is somehow the epitome of his "guidebook as work of art" approach. So there are no grades, plenty of historical notes, etc. At the time this kind of book was under a huge backlash (those were the years everyone was longing for Piola-type topos), but it's very interesting to see that there are young climbers who are using the 1980 guide to check for obscure or forgotten lines in the GP area (particularly on the Piemonte side).

But Buscaini was unique. A couple of years back in Valtellina it was organized a definitive exhibition of his material. Believe me, stuff to make an adult climber cry. The best of both worlds: great, photo-realistic drawings (all hand made of course!) and tons of first hand material on every possible route of areas like Monte Bianco, Monte Rosa, Pennines (and Patagonia, of course). Check this one (from the Monte Rosa guide)

http://www.cairimini.it/notiziario/2008/immagini/libro05.jpg


this is Gran Capucin (it's not a picture!)

http://files.splinder.com/3b78657dd90f75aee3215c956d5fda1d.jpeg

and this is the Torre Trieste on Civetta

http://files.splinder.com/1ef9759c476c954f4904f08cca473181.jpeg

The sad thing is that there's not going to be another Buscaini - someone talented as climber AND as guidebook writer (and painter, and photographer) with enough time, experience and budget to produce those definitive guidebooks. And there's of course the whole mass of unreleased material on the Geant - Jorasses - Talefre - Triolet guide he was writing when he died...

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

What about the aid bits on some of the original easy classic alpine routes! The fact that modern climbers are unlikely to be carrying etriers, wooden wedges or pegs and are suddenly faced with a A0 or A1 moves on rotten rusting or non existent gear...!
Similar problem here BTW now that the mention of aid on routes has somehow been omitted in the more recent guidebooks.
Even in Scotland never mind the UK the grades vary from area to area and many easy route have a sting...

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

Excellent. What's the chance it's a coincidence?

In reply to jon:

High, because "partire a lume di candela" is common old-ish italian jargon for "to start very early".

In reply to crieff427:
Not sure which route you are referring to there. If you mean the Midi-Plan, no - did it with a mate as part of that failed attempt on the Midi-Grepon.

In reply to Misha:

Did it once after the really hot summer around 2002 / 2003 and it was desperate on rock hard black ice. As for the decent............!!!!
Another time it was straight forward on good neve...

In reply to Misha:

This summer I found the south ridge of the Aiguille du Moine a bit of a sandbag at AD...

In reply to jon:
I suppose people have to realise what they're letting themselves in for, i.e. is it a 'proper' Alpine route with objective dangers and commitment, a high/mid altitude trad rock route with little real danger, a multi-pitch bolted route or... a Font circuit! Some Font guide books give 'Alpine' grades to circuits but of course it's not meant to be comparable to Alpine routes, it's just a useful system for grading relative difficulty *within* a certain type of climbing.

To avoid confusion and pretensions to having done a real Alpine route, I tend to give rock grades to pure rock routes which aren't Alpine in character - the same principle as is adopted in the AC guides. As an example, I'd grade some routes I did this summer as follows - Voie Marylene, Pointe Lachenal is VI or HVS/E1 (trad, fairly high up, some challenging climbing but not very long and has an easy approach and descent); Voie Lepiney, Trident de Tacul is V or VS/HVS though a bit more committing due to an abseil descent; Normal route on Aig des Pelerins was technically the easiest at IV+ (mostly easier) but it's a much longer route with route finding challenges and an equally long descent, so AD.

I also think footwear can make a big difference to the technical difficulty and feel that doing an Alpine or high altitude rock route in rock shoes somehow misses the point, unless the climbing is close to your limit and/or very long. I've met a guy who had done some solid Alpine stuff and climbed 6b but was looking to do the rocky section of the Frendo Spur in rock shoes...

In reply to jon:
The Violettes Glacier must have got a lot more broken up since then. I've uploaded some photos to my gallery. The descent starts off with a glacier plod which leads to the small rimaye. Would have been downclimbable if the snow had been frozen but abbing was the sensible option at 11am (photo 1). After this the glacier was impassable so we had to take a rocky ridge on the left hand side of the glacier. A 30m ab led to easy ground followed by a scramble along the ridge, dropping to a notch from which we did 3 more abs (photo 3). This dropped us down to a flat section of the glacier below some impressive seracs (photo 2), with evidence of ice fall scattered all over the place. A worrying crossing of the glacier led to a short scramble up onto the right hand side of the glacier (a while ago it must have been possible to simply step off the glacier but not there's a rock wall which is the best part of 10 metres high, with a line of weakness providing a way through). A sheer drop bars progress on the other side, so three more abs followed (photo 4). This got us to what we thought was easy ground but shortly afterwards there was another steep rock band which required a final ab. Finally, a long but easy walk off along morraine and a path lower down, finishing with a delightful scramble down the Vire d'Ailefroide. Nothing too difficult but a lot to deal with for a PD! I'd spoken to a local guide and he said it's known as a complicated descent these days.

We had originally entertained ambitions of getting up to the Glacier Blanc hut the same evening. That plan was abandoned somewhere along the descent and upon reaching Ailefroide a little after 7pm we went straight to a restaurant!

In reply to Misha:

Ah, I did the Walker in rock shoes. Advantage was speed.

In reply to Misha:

Can hardly believe that's the same descent Misha. Is there another way off on that side of the mountain?

In reply to Misha: the South ridge of Dent Blanche is long and quite comitting but not too difficult technically. Spectacular mountain as well

In reply to jon:
Well I did say it feels like cheating unless it's very long and at your limit. Now the Walker probably wasn't at your limit but sure would be for me if I ever were to rise to the challenge. Those rock shoes would be packed in the sack and then a case of seeing how it goes.

I'm not aware of any other descents on that side, thought that's not to say there aren't any. Certainly couldn't see any obvious alternatives and pretty sure we did the classic descent line for the traverse, it's even marked on a little map at the hut and there were lots of footsteps in the snow (though only one other party going that way on the day).

In reply to Misha:


I had a partener who was going to do the frendo with me, with him in rock shoes, I would have considered wearing mine too had I had some with me, would have allowed the route to be simu climbed.

In reply to Misha:

That particular year, 1990, the Walker was completely dry. Lots of people made rapid ascents. Rock shoes from the base all the way... stepped onto the summit in them. Sac was just big enough to get boots in it.

Those Pelvoux photos are amazing. I wonder how many other glacier routes have been changed so radically in just 26 years... Mind you, as I said it could be my memory!

In reply to fishy1:
True, rock shoes give you more confidence with some styles of climbing. Smearing in B3s is a particular challenge for me. On the other hand, those wonderful boot-sized cracks must surely be harder in rock shoes? We did a couple of pitches lower down on the Frendo and then pitched from the crux to the snow, so it took us a while and we didn't top out until 11.15pm (done in a single push). Still, I wouldn't have used rock shoes but each to their own. Anyway, the hardest climbing was after I went off route at one stage and we were simulclimbing on that section.

In reply to Misha: How about the Tournette Spur? Seems to get anything from AD- to D+ in descriptions...

In reply to Misha: The Bionassay north face followed by a traverse on to the main bit of Mt Blanc is quite something for AD. The traverse linking ridge when I did was desperate loose and slidy knife edge sugar with a 1,000 metre drop.

The descent off the Aig Noire (E ridge) is just horrible, especially at the top. And PD.

In reply to davidoldfart:


I agree with you about the Bionassay ridge but surely the descent off the Noire has always been recognised as very serious. I think you must be looking at a fairly old guidebook (written with a warped sense of humour), to give it PD+!

In reply to davidoldfart:
The AC guide gives the E Ridge PD/+, which must be quite something for that grade given the length. The guide does note that it's normally taken in descent, so I guess most people will already have done a TD to get up and the convoluted descent would be the icing on the cake. Or you could go for the Integral...

In reply to Misha:

Most of my Alpine Club guide books date back to the late 70s. Hard back, dark blue for Mont Blanc, red for Pennine Alps, bright blue for the Oberland... The general tone of those guides reflects largely what was in vogue at the time. They celebrate the great north face ice routes which are no longer with us. Anything of a lesser stature was somehow sidelined and treated in a derisory way. So there was a good deal of what we now see as undergrading. I seem to remember PDs that are now considered AD, so some of the examples above come as no surprise really...

In reply to Misha: Hi Misha. Have been going to our place in Pelvoux since I was 2, and been watching the glaciers retreat for a few years now. When I did the traverse when I was 17, it involved the glacier to start with, then onto a rocky rideg as you describe, then a scramble (although plenty of people abseiled) down a gully to the Neve Pelissier and then down a long morraine to the Vires d'ailefroide. The glaciers have definately retreated substantially. For example the first time I went to the glacier blanc, we walked about 200 yards from the bridge over the river to the snout of the glacier. We then did some climbing in the crevasses there. Last summer the glacier was a good few hundred metres further up the hill. The path originally went up some hanging ladders, but has now been rerouted up the side of the valley. When my father first went there in the 60's you had to go over the snout to get to the ladders, and the snout was over the edge of the cliffs! And at the beginning of the century the glacier was in the valley below! Things are changing. Fast... Most years the traverse on the North face of the Pelvoux looks to be bare rubble by july where it used to be a snow traverse...

In reply to Misha:
Hi Misha,
The gradings are a bit of a puzzle sometimes compared to Uk. Another one for the list I feel is the normal G Jorasses route (Walker or Whymper ridges). Both AD-, but the whole route felt quite a day to me (did have snow on the Whymper ridge on descent though). As you say probably more important to have a feel for the nature and length of the route. Nice thread with some good ideas for future (PS the Grand Capucin drawing on Luca's post is amazing!)

In reply to Misha: The S Ridge is a beautiful climb: long but never extreme, on excellent rock, with exquisite views and positions, and though most is easier, there are some really classic pitches of about VS. The E ridge descent begins with what felt to me like about 400 m downclimbing on steep, exposed dust, with the huge maw of the southeast face waiting to punish any mistake. After that it does get better. The route finding is complex but doable, and there are lots of time consuming sections where you abseil, then downclimb, then abseil again. However, by then you know you'll get there eventually: I did most of it in heavy rain and we managed. But that first bit, before we bivvied. Ooohh. I shudder at the memory.

In reply to jon:


I know those guides - it was one of them that suggested that the North Buttress of the Dent Blanche was D/D+. A very stressful day and a forced bivi above 4000m descending the South ridge gave us a vivid insight into the guidebook writer's malicious sense of humour and spartan principles.

In reply to jon:

Agreed. Another factor leading to confusion, perhaps especially for Brits, is that even on alpine pure rock routes, speed can be very important. Thus, climbing E3 in the UK is not a reliable guide to what one will be able to do in the alps. Someone who leads UK VS smoothly and efficiently might well be more competent on AD alpine rock than the E3 leader.

In reply to Solaris:

You're absolutely right. I'd just like to point out, however, that only the second line that you are replying to was written by me - the first line was what I was replying to and that wasn't written by Misha either, it was written by a Chorlton Climber... if that makes any sense!

In reply to Solaris:
Yes, speed is king and things like big boots and rucksacks make a big difference. A lot of Alpine rock/mixed routes up to AD (and even beyond) involve moving together and that's a skill which many Brits with a rock climbing background take a while to master (well I did anyway). Having said that, I'd expect a solid E3 leader to be pretty nippy on AD rock once they've got the hang of things - though not necessarily that much nippier than a solid VS leader.

Anyway, I assume the whole E3 comment came from the best onsight on my profile. Almost all of these have been E3 5c grit slabs, which is pretty useless in the Alps apart from developing a decent head for lack of gear. I'm certainly not a solid E3 leader and the few 'proper' E3 leads I've done have tended to take an hour or so for a single pitch - nowhere near fast enough for the Alps, which is your point precisely.

In reply to jon:
Yes, Jon (and Misha). Sorry if the inability of UKC to show exactly who said what has caused anyone any confusion.