UKC

I've got the Rab Generator Vest which is excellent, but I think I'd like something a little warmer - either a half-zip pullover or a full-zip jacket. Not sure if I want a hood or not. I'll probably use it as a mid-layer when ice climbing, Scottish Winter, and as an extra layer for Summer Alpinism, etc.

There are a lot of similar jackets out there. Any recommendations? The Rab Generator Alpine and Rab Photon Hoodie seem almost identical. The Haglof LIM Barrier Pullover is much lighter, but has no hood. Mammut do a Stratus jacket which looks nice.

Thanks

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: I still occasionally use a decade old Snugpak 'softie' insulated jacket. Snugpak make kit aimed at the military rather than mountaineers but you can get one of their latest Sleeka Elite jackets in black for 50-55 quid which is great if you're on a tight budget.

However, in terms of the custom designed belay jackets I'm afraid can't really comment.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

I thought the Berghaus Infinity smock (no hood) was the best bit of kit I've ever owned. The zip has now died and I use it as you suggest as a mid layer. They no longer make it, which is a shame. To replace it I bought a Patagonia Nano Pullover, which is almost identical, but doesn't have the big hand warmer full width pocket which I miss and find my hands searching for (a little like groping continuously for a chalk bag when you're not carrying one). I think smocks are far superior to full zips as even when the zip fails, the jacket is still useable.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

I have a Mammut Stratus (with hood) which is fantastic for Scotland in winter - really nasty day, pull that on and it's instant warmth with a nice hood too. Plus if it's sleating or raining then who cares? It's sythetic! Reasonably tough outer material (unlike the Rab Generator / Berghaus INfinity type stuff)

Also have a Generator jacket though which is great for slightly less nasty weather.

Have even worn both at the time time in the past for a totally snug as a bug in a rug feeling. Combine with a powerstretch balaclava and you're laughing.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: One thing to consider is that so many serious shells are so well cut these days that something that fits under them well as a mid layer for winter wear may not work very well as a booster layer as well over summer kit. I've got a nice Jack Wolfskin synth pullover (no hood) that I picked up for like EUR 30 in some sale. It's great for cragging and summer mountain routes - just slip it over whatever I'm wearing (often something like a Marmot driclime, or microfleece and windproof jacket). But it would be a bit too baggy to go well under my goretex. I guess it will depend on your shape etc. my chest size seems to be at the upper end of most firm's "medium" but I don't want to go up to "large" because the arm length etc is too long and the jackets feel flappy and stop you seeing your feet. But it often means I can fit much under my shell beyond my normal baselayer, and R1 microfleece. Would the Generator Vest be a good midlayer for winter climbing? I have a Patagonia puffball vest that does fit under my goretex fine if it's really cold. Then maybe consider getting something with a hood for a summer alpine/cragging booster layer. Hoods make a huge difference I find.

Didn't Jack review the Stratus last winter? I had the impression that's more of a full on belay jacket.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: I'm pretty sure the fill weights for the Rab Generator Alpine, Photon Hoody and Generator are all the same — 100gsm in the body and 60gsm in the arms — so they'll offer very similar levels of warmth. I think the Generator Alpine might use a different type of Primaloft fill, which might make a bit of a difference, and hoods also boost warmth a lot, but I reckon that to get something appreciably warmer than the Generator you'd have to go up to something like the Rab Belay jacket.
The Belay is a good jacket but way too warm for active use, ime. In fact I find most synthetic fill jackets too hot except for when I'm static, including the Generator jacket. They're reckoned to give more insulation than a 300gsm fleece, which I can easily believe.
Primaloft vests work well when you're moving in very cold conditions tho -- let a bit of air at the armpits and give great freedom of movement. They can also be worn under something like the Generator when static to give a very warm combination.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: Not cheap but I would definately try on some of the new Arc'teryx Atom series. Combining synthetic insulation and powerstrech gives a close fitting but very warm mid layer.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
I'm using a photon hoody which must be the best piece of clothing that i've ever had, though it seems that's almost the same as the generator.
The 'set-up' i've been using both in the Alps and in Alaska and which have worked perfectly is a merino base layer, a second base layer (Patagonia R1 type) and the Photon hoody on top, and i have to say i've yet to feel cold, bar some lengthy belays.
I'm considering getting a second Photon to add on top as a belay jacket, so i think a second generator or a Photon on top of the vest you already got should be a very warm, flexible and light combination.

In reply to TobyA:

Good tip. One of the reasons I want to go to a shop and try jackets on is so I can bring in a range of my current clothes that I'd wear under/over it to see what layers well, how much mobility I still have, etc.


Well I used it in Norway, the Pyrenees and Scotland last Winter. Combined with a merino baselayer + softshell over the top. Seemed to do the trick, but weather conditions were nice, so I'm looking for something warmer in case I'm not so lucky this season.


Ah yes, he did:
- http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=849

and some bloke called Toby did a nice round up of heavy duty belay jackets too
- http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1375

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: I've got the photon hoodie and really do not like the hood on and i future i think i would rather have the generator smock but despite the fact i hate the hood it is still one of my most used pieces of kit and through out the winter i wear it almost daily (cycling, coxing, cold at school etc...)

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

TNF Redpoint (Optimus) jacket is another option. I bought the summit series one with the hood, though with second thoughts I think it would be more useful without the hood, unless you plan to be somewhere exceedingly cold. The hood does not stow or have a keeper - so can blow in the wind. North Face sizing tends to be a bit large if you are small build.

In reply to mountainsheep:
What's up with the hood. You may just have saved me from buying the hooded version !
Figured the hood would be great for stopping spindrift etc?

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

Anyone tried a Haglofs Barrier Hood??

Priced at £107, seems like a good deal. How warm compared to 'the others'

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: i find when not wearing a helmet or it under a shell hood over then it never really seems to move with your head plus it has no weight so it often gets blown about in the wind. Plus it has no rigidity and does not have a wired peak so it's all floppy. My friend likes the hood so try it on mess with the hood and see how you find it.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

I still have a Berghaus Aqtash Extreme and after many years i can`t think of any reason why i would want to change it for anything else.

In reply to MaxWilliam:


I've got one as well - pretty decent jacket but I reckon way to big to use as a mid layer. I use it as a standard belay jacket over a shell/softshell as well as my everyday winter coat.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:


That sounds quite a lot to me - depends on how thick your softshell is though. I'd just go for a full on suffer-fest belay jacket to go over everything, and climb in what you have.

One top tip would be to try a very light, very basic highly breathable windproof of some sort (pertex) over your merino baselayer and below the softshell. If you have a non-membrane soft shell they can get some wind through them, and the windproof can make a big difference in warmth, whilst weighing less than 100 grams.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

Must be the Montane Extreme Smock.

It is the DOGS dangly things.

Super warm, great fit, versatile, tough, long lasting, and did i say very warm?

In reply to MaxWilliam:


I've had one of these for a few years, still warm. I just stuff the hood down the back of my neck or between my back and rucksack. The really annoying thing about the hood is that it isn't wired, at all, and there's no cord to cinch it up. I keep meaning to rig a cord/wire in the hood but never get round to it....Other than that its my belay jacket of choice when its damp/wet/scottish.

In reply to rusty_nails:
>


Agreed! I also have a Montane Extreme, but mine is the jacket. Absolutely brilliant kit.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: I bought a Rab Photon Hoody a few weeks ago and have been very impressed with it so far. The cut is great for me (6 foot 4 and fairly slim), as I often have problems with the sleeves being too short for the obdy size. On the photon however the sleeves are perfect, even on the bike they're the right length but don't get in the way when belaying etc. The hood is great as well, very warm and spacious and has the added benefit of working like a scarf when it's rolled up. It kept the rain off very well (and there's a lot of it in Cardiff) and dried out quickly. Don't know how it'll last but really pleased with it so far. Good pockets as well.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

I've got the Montane Toasty jacket. Same primaloft fill power as the Rab Belay jacket but no hood. It was about half the price of the Belay jacket, and I stitched on a strip of velcro round the collar and can put on a Buffalo or Montane hood.

PeterM

Mountain equipment Fitzroy, served me well so far.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
I've had a couple of Montane jackets which have served me very well. When I needed to replace one recently, I looked at everything in British shops and found that only the Montane Prism had a two way zip and napoleon pockets. (I think I've got the name right; the website is down. It weighs ca. 300gms and is blue outer, orange inner.) Both those are high on my list of essential design features and it amazes me that eg Rab, Berghaus, TNF don't do a light belay jacket that has them.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
I picked up a paramo torres smock last year and have been hugely impressed with it. Easy to lob on and faff-free as it's a pullover and the hood's awesome! Much warmer than my old lightline and I'm not scared to get it soggy.
Was tempted by a rab belay jacket but the torres was so much cheaper and is uber-warm. Too warm for all year round use but I have a rab generator smock for less severe stuff.

In reply to Solaris:

I managed to pick up a Montane Prism 2.0 for £45 from Sportdirect.com
Excelent jacket - I wear it everyday. Warm, waterproof, light, good hood, good pockets.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: Another vote for the monatne extreme smock here, def the best £80 i ever spent! So warm and comfy. plus the hood is removable so if you dont want it on...

In reply to Daniel Duerden:
Good one! Don't know why anyone buys fleeces nowadays -- or anything else, for that matter!

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

I've got a Rab Photon Hoodie

Warm, waterproof and doesn't take up much room love it.

In reply to johnnorman:



I have to agree with you mate, the Montane Smock is brilliant. Mine is nearly 10 years old and the only problem is that the pile is now getting a bit thin in places. But it is bombproof, great fit - with long arms which is great for climbing in.

In some cases however it has been too warm!!

Ive just 'replaced' it with the prism 2.0 jacket although now with winter approaching and all these posts about belay jackets on the outside, i know ive bought a size too small...

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
I have 3 synthetic jackets, and I like them all.

Oldest is a Berghaus something. 20 years old, very sturdy, cosy, but not too light - about a kilo.

At the other extreme is my Montane Solo, nearly 10 years old now. This is much lighter, has no hood, and is not so hot (obviously). It is Primaloft filled and pertex outer, which seems to me to be the lightest for the warmth combination.

In between I have a MH Compressor jecket, with hood. The hood makes a big difference to warmth.

In general I find Prialoft jackets can be quite sweaty if I am active, unless the wind is very strong. So I wouldn't use any of these as a mid layer unless I was stationary or I was in a real hooly.
Mostly these jackets go over the top of my outer layer.

My outer layer of choice is the Paramo Velez light smock - brilliant bit of kit. Waterproof and as breathable as a jumper.

My layering system would be to wear base layer and close-fitting jumpers or fleeces under this according to warmth. Once we get below freezing, then the primaloft jackets come on as belay jackets, ie fling them on top of the Paramo. This works very well.

In reply to MaxWilliam:

Yep, I like my Redpoint Optimus jacket a lot.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: I'm so confused now! grin

Perhaps I should be thinking in terms of lightweight belay jackets that I can sling over the top of my outer shell jacket, rather than using it as a mid-layer underneath the shell jacket.

In the past I've used a big heavy down jacket for belaying, which is fine if all you are doing is single pitch ice cragging, but a complete pain on mountain routes or longer multi-pitch climbs.

Of the belay jackets I've tried on so far, the Rab Generator Alpine and Mountain Equipment Fitzroy stand out as being warm, comfortable and a good fit.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

Does the Generator Alpine have a bigger hood than Photon Hoody?

Stuart

In reply to Stuart the postie: Don't know about the Photon Hoody, but I tried the Generator Alpine on in the shop whilst wearing a normal helmet, and it fitted well.

In reply to TobyA:


The other advantage of this approach is that it acts as a gliss* interlayer between the merino and the insulation layer of the soft shell, so eases movement of the soft shell over the base layer.

* seems to be a rather obscure fabric term that I've picked up somewhere; gliss is the property that makes a fabric slippery. Either that, or I've made it up... (handle, drape, gliss are fabric terms that come to mind)

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

mountain hardwear alcove jacket - WANT!

looks v good. good amount of insulation, conduit outer, nice fit, not so great price (£185ish)

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

Patagucci DAS, absolutely brilliant jacket with everything in the right place, and without hassle.
My favourite thing in winter...

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

Have a look at a Montane Prism 2 and think how it'd be when used with a harness -- either under or over -- compared with the ones you mention. That's where, as I implied above, the napoleon pockets and two-way zip really come into their own.

Of course, none of these will be as warm for a forced bivi as a big down jacket...

In reply to captain paranoia:


Yep this is totally true (and why a driclime or equivalent make really good baselayers as well). I think gliss is lovely sounding word.

In reply to TobyA:


Does this not just trap sweat and negate the point of the softshell?

(I'm not having a go, just seems like a sweaty solution. I've got a Rab windproof made from Pertex Endurance and it's not exactly that breatable)

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

Not read all replies so this may have been said already.

I wanted a new belay jacket this year for multi pitch Winter, so it had to be warm but also pack down small. I tried: RAB photon - not warm enough. RAB belay - too big and heavy but would be nice for single pitch stuff. ME Fitzroy - nice but not cut very long, i like to have a warm lower back/bum. Patagonia micro puff - recommended to me and was nicely cut/made and seemed warm enough, packed down small, unfortunately the hood was absolutely pants with a helmet on.

I eventually went for a haglofs barrier hoody. Excellent cut in arms and body even when reaching up. Superb hood - possibly best i've come across on this type of coat. Seems warm enough ( in the shop anyway ) and packs down really small for it's size. It's sized to be worn over your other layers and i've not been out in super cold weather with it but i've worked in the pouring rain all day in it stood around belaying kids and it only wetted out on the shoulders and was still plenty warm.

Certainly worth trying one on. Internet deals for about £107 and £120 in shops.

In reply to galpinos:

Hmmmm, interesting - because no, not at all. I've always found Pertex to be perfectly breathable - it can get wet if I'm biking or running hard but that's only because I wet out the base layer below, everything soon start drying once I ease off the gas a bit. I've only had good experience with pertex*, from my 20 year old Buffalo shirt onwards. I wonder if Equilibrium is different?

*I should say other fabrics are available. I have a marmot windshell that I've reviewed for UKC and their new fabric seems to work just as well but I had an old Marmot windshell that looked identical but was as breathable as a bin bag and hence rubbish.

In reply to TobyA:

I'll give it a go this winter and see what happens. If I get sweaty, I'll blame you!

I normally wear a base layer, R1 and softshell (winter guide) in winter. Not sure whether to drop the R1 for the windproof or add the windproof.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

easy, alpkit.com are doing a new belay jacket, for £45 quid at the moment.

full zip and hood, around 600grms I think and bloody warm.

http://www.alpkit.com/colab/projects/0hiro/

In reply to Paulcmountain:

zips burst and he hasn't even got it out the shop yet . .
mind you at £45 its difficult to complain.

Enjoying the JC clips btw - much appreciated

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: i recently bougth an ME fitzroy and its brilliant its been pretty cold here in north wales recently and ive just worn a t-shirt underneath and been reli toasty warm

In reply to Paulcmountain: Unfortauntely none in stock unless you are after a small.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: Rab photon is excellent. small enough to pack into your rucksack/camelbak and v warm. very diverse bit of kit.

In reply to biscuit:

Does the Haglofs hood swallow your helmet?

Stuart

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: I've got a PHD Zeta and can't fault it.

In reply to Stuart the postie:

best fitting hood i've come across with a helmet. Lots of room in it. Adjusts easily and sticks to the helmet like glue. Doesn't obstructvision and moves with your head. it's on of the main things that swung it for me - as well as the pack size, cut, warmth and weight of course.

Don't get the windstopper version though. Pointless and sweaty.

In reply to Paulcmountain:

got one - haven't used it yet, but the hood only covers half of my head when wearing a helmet

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC: This turned out to be much harder than I expected! I've tried on at least 10 different jackets, and considered several more...

In the end I went for the Mountain Equipment Fitroy jacket, with the Rab Generator Alpine a very close second. Of course the only meaningful test will be out on the hill.

Thanks for all the suggestions

In reply to highaltitudebarista:

Isn't the Zeta a bit overkill in the UK?

I'm tempted but put off by the weight- almost a kilo. Think I'm erring towards the Fitzroy or Barrier Hoody at present.

Does anyone use a Berghaus Combust jacket? Looks interesting too.

RPG

In reply to Richard Gilbert:

Yes, but I'm training for the Rupal face.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
I've had a Patagonia Puffball pullover for ages - incredibly warm for the weight; I think the spec is more like the current Nano version though - new Puffball heavier than what I have.
I also just had my annual kit blowout and bought an Arcteryx Fission SL jacket at an absurd price. The reason is that if you're out for 2 - 3 days in Scotish winter and you want a 'belay jacket' extra layer - the pertex shelled synthetics will get wet through. I have seen Mammut Stratus tops drenched and heavy with all the water; don't fancy that much so the SL has a Goretex Pro shell, as well as helmet friendly hood all at just over 600g.

In reply to Richard Gilbert: I have a Combust. Very well featured and toasty! Very good value aswell.

In reply to Solaris:

Good for you. This thread was about belay jackets for summer alpine and scottish winter mountaineering.

In reply to speedysi:

Thank you.

I finally found one in Cotswold last weekend. Too big and in black unfortunately. Trendy but useless if you want to be seen and rescued!

RPG

In reply to Richard Gilbert:
Ah, the bliss of being literal minded. Are you an American?

(Oh, and your question was addressed Mr K who is not a ventriloquist, so far as I am aware, and nor am I a ventriloquist's doll.)

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

I've just bought a Quechua synthetic duvet in the Foix Decathlon store for €39 and it is rapidly becomming the jacket I can't do without. Lovely features, a good hood and nice and warm. They come in black or orange.

La Sham

In reply to A9:

When I got mine, the zip was a bit 'sticky', but I guess that's because it was new. After using it a lot, it's worn down a bit and works fine.

In terms of the hood, mine fits over a helmet fine, but that might depend on the helmet...

I have a few issues with it in terms of the toggle placement inside the hood, and the adjuster at the back of the hood, but the cut/warmth/weight etc are all spot on for me. It has become my most used bit of kit...

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
Here you go Nick found one for you
http://www.klattermusen.se/produkt.php?lang=EN&curr=EUR&id=52&m...

tad expensive! used some of their gear before though and its awesome!

In reply to Stash:

No hood.

In reply to galpinos:

Well done!

In reply to La Shamster:

I've got an orange one of those - I got it in the sale and it's one of my favourite ever bits of outdoor kit. Utterly brilliant, warmer than my down jacket (which, to be fair, might just be knackered), bright orange in an inducing-envy-in-Control-Freak way - and only £35!

In reply to galpinos:

Personally if im using it as an extra mid layer i find a hood gets in the way.
The great hood debate goes on,,,,,,

In reply to Stash:

Wasn't trying to be facetious, just thought Nick was after a hood!

(Personally, if I want a thick-ish synthetic, like the one you posted seems to be, I’d want a hood, as it’d be worn as an outer layer mostly. If I was after a synthetic without a hood, it’d be something like the Patagonia Nano pullover, http://www.patagonia.com/web/eu/product/mens-nano-puff-pullover?p=84020-0-6... I’m a sucker for Patagucci kit though!)