UKC

i have seen this done two ways the first way is to go on the outside of the knot and follow around the outside and the other way is to go round the inside of the knot just wandering if there was a best way to do it or whether it does not matter??

In reply to woodybenwood:

I fall into the "doesn't matter" category as long as the end result doesn't look like a dogs dinner. I'm sure someone on here will tell you one method is stronger or easier to untie than the other but not me.

s

In reply to woodybenwood:
If I've understood what you're describing correctly I'm not sure that there's any actual difference in the knot once you've pulled it tight.

In reply to woodybenwood: no difference i don't think test it and let us know.

In reply to Slugain Howff:

the live rope around the outside is stronger (bigger radius) but only marginally so.

no idea if easier to untie as i am mainly a bowline man.

In reply to woodybenwood: Don't think it matters, personally I run on the basis of as long as it looks like a double figure of 8 and you feel comfortable with it it should be good

In reply to lithos: what is a live rope are we talking the retracing rope or the origninal firgure of eight knot

In reply to woodybenwood:

http://www.animatedknots.com/fig8follow/index.php?LogoImage=LogoTotalAccess...

In reply to woodybenwood: was just wondering because i always go around the outside and always have and i ain't been hurt yet was just wondering how other people do it

In reply to woodybenwood: outside for me to.

In reply to woodybenwood:

sorry for dealy - the live rope is he one the load is on, so in a fo8
the one you tie the inital 8 in befoe rethreading/ hope tht makes sense

In reply to Chris.Allott:

Not noticed before, but if you look closely at the slow motion video, the rope follows the inside of the top half of the knot, and then around the outside of the bottom half (i.e the second half), and the tail is outside'ish as it finishes through, so unless I'm seeing it wrong..there is not a complete inside or outside.

Steve

In reply to moonraker:

what I was thinking.

when you let the two cross over it not only doesn't look as obviously 'right' but can be harder to untie.

In reply to woodybenwood: I personally wouldn't think it matters but would think it would be easier to untie if the re-threaded part was on the outside as it's less likely to get squished if it was on the inside by the 'live' rope. But then maybe, not as strong, but really no one has mentioned it before so it cant be that big of a deal.

In reply to woodybenwood:

you could always learn to tie a Bow-line as well. Its just as safe as a Figure of Eight know with the added bonus of being easy to undo when loaded.

In reply to nikinko:

I was always told 'Don't cross the streams' it leads to Total protonic reversal.

In reply to moonraker:

I can't see how you could keep it always outside or inside without crossing the rope..
however the last bit of that animation page...
"Inspection: Ensure that there are two strands beside each other at each part of the knot. Some texts suggest ensuring a perfect, flat, knot with two strands lying parallel at each point. It does make a very attractive knot. In reality, however, it is impractical as the strands find their own position under load - and that is not "flat". "

I don't reckon it matters which way you go - I guess if loaded it will always end up something in between.

They are clumpy great knots anyway... I use a Bowline

In reply to Chris.Allott: Yes, your right, of coarse once loaded the live side of the knot will pull tighter and compact, and climb over or under the other unloaded side thus giving a less that perfect looking knot anyway.

In reply to Chris.Allott:

Bowline everytime, I sometimes think I'm the only one who uses it (is there something I don't know?) and you can tie them one handed.

A

In reply to A Chorlton Climber: Yes - the competition knot. Have been using the Bowline for years but recently discovered the competition knot which is fantastic - it's basically a water knot. It's compact, will not slip undone, is easier to untie than an 8 and leaves the rope coming out of your harnes pointing down just like a bowline... since I've used it, about 4 of my climbing mates have been sufficiently impressed to swap!

In reply to mike kann:

Are they still alive?
Show us a picture of it...please?
A

In reply to A Chorlton Climber: they are indeed .haven't got a picture but there are some around on the net. will try to find one.

In reply to woodybenwood: Hi i'm still on my introductory course and its doesn't matter as long as the result is a healthy looking eight, which is soooo tight you cant see the light through it! ;0)

In reply to mike kann:

Glad to hear it!

It's when you get to the top of a climb and discover that you haven't tied any kind of knot in the rope that worries me...

In reply to A Chorlton Climber: Finally found it. http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfxv4svj_0f8xtcfdt&hl=en
I don't think many people use it, but I can say that it is quick, neat and uses little rope, is easy to untie, doesn't need a stopper... it seems to do all you could ever want from a tie in knot... it's certainly worth a look as an alternative tie in method...

In reply to mike kann:

Cheers for that, looks worth remembering.
I wonder how strong it is compared to a fig 8 or bowline?
No, forget that, yet another can of worms...

In reply to mike kann:

Interesting.

Its main disadvantage over the bowline I'd say is that when you untie from your harness, you are left with the original overhand; like a rethreaded figure of eight has the original fig 8.

I like the bowline because I dont have to remember to untie that extra knot. It's quicker and no chance of getting the rope stuck.

In reply to A Chorlton Climber: Well it's a water knot so I would have thought strength reductions would be similar to that? That is a bit of a speculative guess though... reduction for that is 60-70% compared to an 8 which is 75-80 and a bowline which is 70-75%. However you must bear in mind that 60-70% of the strength of a rope is still massive!

In reply to jonny2vests: The thing I really like about it over the bowline is how compact it is... it takes up so little rope!

In reply to mike kann:

Might give it a try for a while. Nice one Mike.

In reply to mike kann: Surely that knot is just a double overhand isn't it, or am I missing something?

There was a BMC video some years ago which showed a bowline inverting itself and coming undone when the wearer slid down a slab with the knot between his belly and the rockface. It was enough to convince me to stop using a bowline.

In reply to Hillwalker: yes you are... try tying a rethreaded overhand and you will see...

In reply to mike kann: Sorry but you have lost me, I just tied it and basically it is a rethreaded overhand knot. If it isn't how is it different?

In reply to Hillwalker:...well...if I can explain it right....with the knot in the diagram, the waterknot or ringbend...the dead end comes out of the harness and follows the "live" rope into the knot and travels parallel around the knot and exits alongside the rope entering the "loop", i.e with the dead/tail-end facing towards you.

With a retraced overhand – “a double overhand” – the rope coming out from the harness loops, lays parallel to the dead rope (the rope entering the harness) and follows the knot and parallel to it, then exits the knot parallel to the “live” rope, i.e point away from you, (as in a retraced “8”).

Two completely different knots.

In reply to Hillwalker: If you look at a rethreaded overhand the rope to the climber and the loose end come out at the same point. With a ring/water knot you start rethreading where the live rope comes out of the starter knot and ends up looking like a round loop rather than a teardrop shaped loop. Effectively you have tied a sling into the end of the rope if that makes any sense? see below for a guide to rethreaded overhand and compare with the ring bend... http://www.outdooridiots.com/features/200606/pitchingatarp/pitchingatarp2.a...

In reply to moonraker: I understand that completely, the threaded end merely starts and finished the opposite way round, but the knot itself remains a double overhand.

I am not sure that justifies its description as 'a completely different knot.

In reply to woodybenwood:

Another one to try is the rethreaded bowline. Super easy to tie, and definitely won't come undone. My knot of choice if I am working a hard sports route, but I still prefer the rethreaded figure of eight for trad.