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I hate indoor climbing!

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 Howard J 18 Nov 2009
At the wall the other night I realised how much I dislike climbing indoors. Apart from a chance to meet up with my friends, it gives me none of the things I go climbing for. It just seems to be a lot of effort for little reward.

I don't find most of the routes very interesting. Outdoors I'll pick a route because it follows an attractive line, or because of its history, or sometimes just because of its name. Indoors, it's just an anonymous sequence of holds which might not be there next week. Because I feel nothing for the route, I feel little sense of satisfaction when I get to the top, and if I hit a problem I feel little incentive not to cheat and use a different colour hold. It just doesn't interest me enough to take it seriously.

I don't even find the climbing style relates very much to what I do outdoors. It doesn't help that I keep forgetting it's OK to fall off, or stop for a rest. I keep trying to climb as if it's trad (which is also how I approach sport climbs).

It's worse than going to the gym - at least there I can listen to music or watch telly while I'm exercising, but when I'm climbing or belaying I have to pay attention.

And it's only November! There's months of this until the evenings get lighter. Even though I'm free during the day at the moment, the weather's shite and my usual partner's injured, so I can't get outdoors much.

I accept it does help me to keep supple and used to vertical movement, which helps when I start outdoors properly in the spring. And I do need the exercise, especially because being at home all day I've nothing to do but eat cake.

How can I get myself motivated to enjoy going to the wall, at least until I can get back to proper climbing?

 David Hooper 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

I feel your pain brother - as the years go on , the feel of the wall is becoming more and more distanced and alien to the outdoor experience.

I appreciate that a hell of a lot of people enjoy the wall for its own sake, but to me its very much just a means to an end ie trying to keep moderately fit for real rock climbing.

Good to meet up with friends there though.

To be honest, I much prefer even hillwalking and scrambling or getting out on my mountainbike to going to the wall - its just being in the outdoor environment I guess.
 Ewan Russell 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:
well turn up drunk, try arrange trad gear on the holds(don't use the clips), solo some of the routes(with rope attached so you can get down at the end!). Or get a massive tarpulian(I mean massive) and cover it over the good crags so you can then climb all year round on them.
HMMM
 Kevster 18 Nov 2009
In reply to The third:
ytou mean go to ratho?
 tallsop 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J: Fair enough, each to their own i guess? Yeah, i suppose the style of climmbing will be different indoors, its pretty hard to simulate VS jammin cracks/chimneys etc... indoors.

To be fair though, if you hate indoor climbing so much, 'man up', throw on your waterpoofs and work on your wet weather technique, i reckon VDiffs at Birchen/Stanage etc feel about VS/HVS in the wet. Your obviously more into the 'Adventurous vibe' rather than the actual climmbing aspect - i reckon climbing inn the rain adds to this. Plus, in the wet you dont even notice the polish cos its all slippy

On a more helpful note, perhaps if you used indoor walls as an opportunity to really push yourself, and try things that are really hard for you, you might get a bit more out of it??? Get flyin man! - but make sure you go for a decent pint afterwards!!!
 Ybot Htulk 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

Yes, ive not been to an indoor wall for over a year now. I was getting less and less enjoyment out of visits untill i decided to stop going.

Ive realised that climbing for me is very much about the aesthetic. Not the dificulty, so why train? A sweaty over crowded wall, shirtless poseurs, feeling crap cos i cant get up a 6b, the noise. Fu+k that, I'll just carry on bumbling around on VS's on beautifull sea cliffs

My advise is to completely give up climbing indoors
 vincentvega 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

Climbing at the wall is what it is, as simple as that. Take from it what you can.

Why not get on something well above you grade and have a little projet.?

Things like that give me the desire to climb inside when there isnt much other optiion, as personaly if i fail at something, if it be climbing or something else, i strive to complete it. You never know you may even suprise yourself!
 David Hooper 18 Nov 2009
In reply to vincentvega:

Hello mate - dry yet?

But what about when you have been working that slightly too hard route for a couple of weeks - you feel that you nearly have it cracked - and then next time you rock up at the wall - yep youve guessed it - those bloody route setters have "disappeared" you project
 jkarran 18 Nov 2009
In reply to David Hooper:

Pick another similar one from the new setting and get on that. It's a mild disappointment for sure but no reason not to try

jk
 otziiceman 18 Nov 2009
I prefer indoor to outdoor, but the routes at the foundry in sheffield arent usually too bad, even some interesting ones like the jamming crack (graded at VS 5a) and a layback on an overhang. I think that walls need to be seen as a means to an end - to keep fit or train for the outdoor routes.
 Caralynh 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

Also hate indoor stuff, and haven't been for ages (maybe once in the last 2yrs +.

Autumn is for walking, scrambling etc.
Winter is for walking and easy winter routes.

 vincentvega 18 Nov 2009
In reply to David Hooper:

Hey David, hope your well, Im just about dry, but the rope isnt, lol!!!

Yeah, that does happen but if your that psched you will be down there and getting in nailed well before there due for changing!! Thats in theory anyway!!

On a serious note,you could always ask when they are going to be next changed!!

Allan
 David Hooper 18 Nov 2009
In reply to vincentvega:

Nah only joking - doesnt bother me really - more bothered about the one Ive got wired and can pose on

Flue fitter and stove coming in next week - will be warm and cosy again.

Incredible flooding down there at the mo apparently.
 vincentvega 18 Nov 2009
In reply to David Hooper:

I can imagine, it hasnt bleeding let up!!

Chewy will be in his element lay infront of that!!
 NorthernRock 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

Its a mean to an end, nowt more.

I just clip the bolts and take whippers on routes that I can do at the bottom, but halfway up run out of steam.

Preferring the bouldering walls though, you can work a problem that you can relate to weird gritstone bulgy corner. much better than 25m of bolt clipping.

I just dont understand people who think that it is worthwile to quote what you climb indoors. Its like saying I killed 50 people on playstation today...total divorce from the real thing.
 tallsop 18 Nov 2009
In reply to David Hooper:
> (In reply to vincentvega)
>
>
>
> But what about when you have been working that slightly too hard route for a couple of weeks - you feel that you nearly have it cracked - and then next time you rock up at the wall - yep youve guessed it - those bloody route setters have "disappeared" you project

Shouldve pulled ur thumb out ur arse an got it done quicker
 vincentvega 18 Nov 2009
In reply to NorthernRock:

I agree, it is a total divorce from the real thing.
Another way to look at it though, is that indoor climbing is a discipline in its own right.
 pete87abs 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:
I too had the post summer hate of indoor climbing and decided id go surfing instead of dreaded indoor climbing but last weekend i did my first winter route and now im so psyched to get to the indoor wall and do big juggy overhanging things to get strong for winter routes. So my advice is move to scotland and take up winter climbing its inspiring!
Derbyshire Ben 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

>How can I get myself motivated to enjoy going to the wall?

Have you led Left Wall, Mousetrap, The Strand, Suicide Wall, The Rasp, Vector, Pincushion, White Slab, Vember, Gogarth, The Bat etc?

If not, all those classic routes are well within your reach with a bit more fitness which could easily be acquired in a winters training. Indoor Climbing is just about training to get fitter and stronger for outdoors but it won't come without setting goals and putting a plan together.

What are your climbing goals for next year? Why not say "Im going to lead Left Wall next Summer' and put your mind to it. Imagine all those route possibilities if you could onsight E2 comfortably. Surely that's motivation enough?

Oh and it might not always be enjoyable either but imagine the feeling pulling onto the top of the Cromlech or belaying your mate up Pincushion as the sun sets next July...
 David Hooper 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Derbyshire Ben:

Good post
 Spenner 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

I'm not a big fan of the indoors, too many people with their shirts off stood in front of everything not doing very much BUT as I am new to climbing it's a means to an end so I do it thinking of getting out after more training.
 mattrm 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

Indoor walls are okish, but I do feel your pain to an extent. However as far as I'm concerned they're just an enjoyable alternative to the gym. It's all about getting fitter for next year so I can climb harder outdoors.
 bouldery bits 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Derbyshire Ben:
> (In reply to Howard J)
>
> >How can I get myself motivated to enjoy going to the wall?
>
> Have you led Left Wall, Mousetrap, The Strand, Suicide Wall, The Rasp, Vector, Pincushion, White Slab, Vember, Gogarth, The Bat etc?
>
> If not, all those classic routes are well within your reach with a bit more fitness which could easily be acquired in a winters training. Indoor Climbing is just about training to get fitter and stronger for outdoors but it won't come without setting goals and putting a plan together.
>
> What are your climbing goals for next year? Why not say "Im going to lead Left Wall next Summer' and put your mind to it. Imagine all those route possibilities if you could onsight E2 comfortably. Surely that's motivation enough?
>
> Oh and it might not always be enjoyable either but imagine the feeling pulling onto the top of the Cromlech or belaying your mate up Pincushion as the sun sets next July...

Top post mate!

Pan Ron 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

That's how I feel about bouldering. I love indoors though.
 teflonpete 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:
I go to a couple of walls (indoor during the winter, indoor / outdoor in the summer). I live 2 1/2 hrs drive away from real rock and want to be in reasonable nick when I get to a crag. So I climb at indoor walls, it's better than going to the gym because it's still climbing movement combining stretching with efficient body position whilst improving strength at the same time. Sure, you're not going to be able to train specifically for a jamming crack in a roof but you'll keep your general fitness strength and stamina up to a level to give you a flying start to next summer season.
That said, I'd happily give up a wall session to go and climb a V.Diff in the pouring rain in November or December in the Lakes or North Wales.
 nikinko 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Derbyshire Ben:
>
> If not, all those classic routes are well within your reach with a bit more fitness which could easily be acquired in a winters training. Indoor Climbing is just about training to get fitter and stronger for outdoors but it won't come without setting goals and putting a plan together.

that is one of my only motivations for indoor climbing. It keeps me rocking up a couple of times a week in winter. I do find it harder to get motivated if I'm just back from a trip to the hills though, even if I've been rained off onto grade1 scrambles all weekend.

other motivations are a good group of people to climb with. I go to womans session which involves coaching, laughing, falling, finding the best climber in the group to do that 'bloody stupid thing that can't possibly only be 6a' falling a bit more, laughing a bit more, before drinking tea and eating cake.

 Pekkie 18 Nov 2009
In reply to otziiceman:
> I prefer indoor to outdoor

A mistake? If not, you need help.
 bouldery bits 18 Nov 2009
In reply to David Martin:
> (In reply to Howard J)
>
> That's how I feel about bouldering. I love indoors though.



oh...
 David Riley 18 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:
My thoughts as well.
You missed out the bit about paying lots for something you don't enjoy.
 teflonpete 19 Nov 2009
In reply to nikinko:
> (In reply to Derbyshire Ben)

> other motivations are a good group of people to climb with.

Too true, I've got a bunch of about 6 to 8 people I climb with indoors and outdoors.
We go to the wall, do some training, have a laugh and grab a pint and a chat afterwards.
It's a social thing as much as a training thing.

OP Howard J 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:
When I started climbing no one talked about training, indeed that was one of its attractions after years of school sports and gym sessions. There were hardly any climbing walls, and they were rubbish. Climbers went to the pub, drank beer and smoked fags instead of training.

Then Pete Livesey came along with his fancy runner's ideas about getting fit, and spoiled it for everyone.
 Trangia 19 Nov 2009
In reply to tallsop:
> (In reply to Howard J) >
> To be fair though, if you hate indoor climbing so much, 'man up', throw on your waterpoofs and work on your wet weather technique, i reckon VDiffs at Birchen/Stanage etc feel about VS/HVS in the wet. Your obviously more into the 'Adventurous vibe' rather than the actual climmbing aspect - i reckon climbing inn the rain adds to this. Plus, in the wet you dont even notice the polish cos its all slippy
>
>

Good advice, that's what we did in the days before walls.

Walls make folk soft whimps when it comes to weather.....
 Snowboy 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

> I don't even find the climbing style relates very much to what I do outdoors. It doesn't help that I keep forgetting it's OK to fall off, or stop for a rest. I keep trying to climb as if it's trad (which is also how I approach sport climbs).

Who says it's ok? Onsight, Ground up EVERY Route EVERY time! Surely that is the aim? to climb as if you get one chance, to climb as if you're not using gear/bolts?
Of course I've fallen a few times but I always come back down furious with myself as I feel I've failed and should be dead.

Which leads me to another thought maybe for another thread: Is Red-pointing/Head-pointing stealing clean ground-up FA's from future generations?

 NorthernRock 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Snowboy:

Ha Ha Ha.

I think you should climb above your grade at a wall. That way you make tenuous moves, above good gear, that outside you would be thinking twice about, then you realise how long you can hold on when youre at the edge of your ability, and realise what is possible.
To climb at walls within your ability may get you stamina, but doesnt push you

Ground up first ascents at climbing walls? Are you OK?
 ahaynes 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J: Stop moaning and stop eating the cake. The walls are there if you want to use them otherwise don't and go get yourself a fingerboard / campus board and some free weights for home. Indoor walls provide different opportunities for different people and you don't have to go to them you know - it's your choice.
Perhaps over the winter (as well as fingerboarding) you could work on cardio fitness by running/cycling?
 MeMeMe 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:
> (In reply to Howard J)
> Climbers went to the pub, drank beer and smoked fags instead of training.

Just do that instead of going to the wall?

Climbing is a fairly pointless activity and even more so if you aren't even enjoying it.

> Then Pete Livesey came along with his fancy runner's ideas about getting fit, and spoiled it for everyone.

I like climbing indoors (and out)!
I just like climbing and any kind of climbing is better than no climbing.
 Snowboy 19 Nov 2009
In reply to NorthernRock:
I do climb above my grade as much as possible and yes I do take falls but my anger over my failure is a massive contributor to my improvement. Sorry if I wasn't clear but I was expressing a pure ideal, a perfection of the art to strive towards.


> Ground up first ascents at climbing walls? Are you OK?

Come on, my whole post was talking about climbing in general, I was agreeing with the OP that I approach indoor routes with the same mentality as outdoors.

Derbyshire Ben 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

Howard, you asked a question about how to motivate yourself and a few have answered with good suggestions. Maybe dignify them with a reply or were you just seeking agreement with your position?
 Richard Horn 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:
> Apart from a chance to meet up with my friends

I think thats the most important part of it for me as well - climbing indoors is a good social activity and personally if I turn up to the wall and no-one is there that I know (thankfully pretty rare) then I get bored pretty quickly and go home after an hour or so.

Like you I have no real interest in success/failure on indoor routes - I really couldnt care less whether I get to the top of the pink 7a or not, but what I do enjoy about indoor climbing is the feeling at the end of the night of having had a good 'burn', and of course plenty of wall talk of climbing trips etc is usually enough to crank up the motivation.
 abarro81 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:
I'll rewrite your post for you...

"I'm lazy, weak and uninterested in sport climbing, bouldering or hard trad. I only enjoy climbing for the adventurous aspects, not for the sporting pleasure or enjoyment of the movement. Can you help me justify this outlook to myself so that I don't wonder too much about if I should do some training?"
 Harry Holmes 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J: stop complaining and see it as a challenge
Pan Ron 19 Nov 2009
In reply to David Riley:
> (In reply to Howard J)
> My thoughts as well.
> You missed out the bit about paying lots for something you don't enjoy.

I happily pay my monthly fee to have shortish climbs avaiable 10 minutes cycle ride from my home.

On the other hand, outside means at least a two-hour drive to Southern Sandstone, some quarry or a 3 hour drive to sea cliffs or the Peak Limestone. Hardly feasible after work, limited by weather and weather.

Indoor is great.
OP Howard J 19 Nov 2009
In reply to abarro81:
> (In reply to Howard J)
> I'll rewrite your post for you...
>
> "I'm lazy, weak and uninterested in sport climbing, bouldering or hard trad. I only enjoy climbing for the adventurous aspects, not for the sporting pleasure or enjoyment of the movement. Can you help me justify this outlook to myself so that I don't wonder too much about if I should do some training?"

Yes, that just about sums it up

I don't really feel a need to train for the level of climbing I do. However I used to get at least some enjoyment from climbing indoors (although nowhere near us much as from outdoors). I seem to have lost that. Perhaps its the walls I go to, which seem to be more about physical challenges than interesting routes. However, I climb with a club and go to whichever wall my friends will be at.

I want more from climbing than simply a physical workout. I find I prefer features which simulate real rock, even on top-rope, rather than lead walls with nothing but bolt-ons.

I think the real problem as that I don't feel indoor routes matter, so they're not worth making an effort with. I need to persuade myself that it does matter that I get up this route without cheating.



 Quiddity 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Derbyshire Ben:

Good post.

To the OP:

The argument 'indoors isn't like outdoors, therefore it's rubbish' is missing the point, a bit. It assumes that indoor experience has to be an approximation of the experience you'd have outdoors, which is inherently going to be disappointing if days out on the hill is your thing. Sure, that's one way to look at it, but another way is 'what can I do to make my wall sessions more relevant to what I want to achieve outdoors?' and suddenly you can use the fact it's not like outdoors to work on a whole host of things. Physical fitness, getting a bit stronger, learning new techniques, learning mental tactics, etc. etc. etc. all in a relatively safe and comfortable environment while the weather outside is too unpleasant to be worth bothering with.

Or, you can genuinely enjoy indoor climbing as a thing that's different to real rock but still enjoyable in its own right.

Indoors is a tool, you can choose to make use of it or you can not bother. No one will tell you what to do, that's the beauty of climbing.

Or you can carry on being grumpy and feeling hard done by and 'isn't this all rubbish' because you feel like you have to do it. You pays your money, you takes your choice.
 Sean Bell 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:
> (In reply to abarro81)
> [...]

>
> I want more from climbing than simply a physical workout. I find I prefer features which simulate real rock, even on top-rope, rather than lead walls with nothing but bolt-ons.
>

The joy of moving over steep terrain, solving problem sequences along the way and getting stronger keeps me happy enough on the indoor walls during winter.Trad is my main thang but I still enjoy pulling on le Plastique..

 Sean Bell 19 Nov 2009
In reply to SeanB: So its not only always 'just' a physical workout, there are many things to be gained from climbing indoors
 WB 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J: I kind of agree. Indoor climbing is just not interesting. Harder routes might be more physically challenging, but they rarely offer a technical difficulty/interest. You just grab the hold and pull, or have to reach further. For me part of the enjoyment of climbing is the uncertainty. Partly offered by not knowing what holds will feel like, or a foot on an insecure edge. Bolt on holds (with possibly the exception of pusher) dont provide that level of interest. It doesn't mean indoor climbing can't be technical or interesting, it just seems there is more emphasis on pulling harder.
 mux 19 Nov 2009
In reply to SeanB:
> (In reply to SeanB)

I would agree with that ...

I even do it with axes in order to hone my skills when placing picks and knowing what they can and can't be trusted on. On a friends wall that is not the local one.

yes the climbing at a wall is different but if you think of it as training for the bigger picture then you get a buzz from a good session and after a while you achieve a bench mark for your fitness and as this increases so does your confidence.

plus it's a good aperitif before hitting the pub.
Derbyshire Ben 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

>I don't really feel a need to train for the level of climbing I do

Did you read my earlier post? You've clearly got the skills and experience to climb regularly at the E2 level and I'm curious as to why you don't want to or appear to think you can't do the classic trad adventure routes at that grade.

>I think the real problem as that I don't feel indoor routes matter.

I don't think they do either, the route doesn't matter at all, it's what I do with them and how I'm using them to get fitter that counts.

Rather than just treating a wall session like a day out tradding, moving around route after route why not take a more structured approach to what you want get out of a visit or series of visits.

>I want more from climbing than simply a physical workout.

You're not going to get that indoors. It's just not like a day out at the crag.
In reply to Howard J: I agree with many of your sentiments. The only thing that motivates me to climb indoors is a desire to climb outdoors harder than I currently can. That's it.

If you don't like climbing indoors, are happy operating at the grade you do and enjoy the history, environment and general experience of climbing outdoors just get on with it and accept that you are more limited in winter.

Unlike you I find the wall more interesting than a gym and far more beneficial but if I did not want to climb harder routes outdoors I would not go.

It may be stating the obvious but you either climb indoors because it's fun and/or because you want to get better. For the latter you need to cultivate your ambition for outdoor routes and push yourself, who knows you may even start to enjoy it indoors as you will undoubtedly reap the benefits if you apply yourself to it.

Al
fijibaby 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J: I love, absolutely obsessively love, the feeling I get from the gymnastic side of climbing. The satisfaction you get from pulling off a hard move, especially the ones that leave you thinking “how did I do that?”.
I live too far from anything worth climbing to be able to get on real rock all that much, then family and work commitments get in the way, throw in a few wet weekends and I manage to get outside once a month. So indoor climbing is my means of getting a fix. It’s my methadone. If I can get it together to meet with a few mates at the wall it’s a really enjoyable session, and often something to look forward to during the day. It never compares to a good day outside, followed by a beer and bigging up of the day’s events, but it will do, and it means I still get that buzz from climbing hard moves.
loopyone 19 Nov 2009
In reply to fijibaby: are you out (or should that be in) tonight

fijibaby 19 Nov 2009
In reply to tatty112: Hi mate, nope work has got in the way. Coupled with Mrs having the car. Sunday might be ok. Next week'll be fine, get the car (and wife) back!
OP Howard J 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:
Reading all these replies makes me realise I've got into a very negative mindset about it. The trouble is, at my age I have to work twice as hard to get the same results. I don't see many benefits from indoor climbing transferring to outdoors. Even when I was younger, lighter and fitter I didn't climb any harder than I do now. I don't find the techniques of indoor climbing translate to outdoors either.

The suggestion that I work on a project is an interesting one. However I visit the wall after work, when its busy, so hogging a route isn't really acceptable, neither would it be acceptable to my partners. And to be honest, the idea of working away at a single route isn't appealing.

The thing is, I used to enjoy it more than I do now. So is it me? Or have the walls changed their emphasis from providing an indoor climbing environment to providing a facility which is aimed much more towards training?
In reply to Howard J: You could be right about the age thing but I'm trying not to get too hung up on that (I'm 61 by the way). The benefit that I get from the wall is that it makes me stonger and gives me more stamina. My technique is not bad, I'm good at slabs and vertical walls but I am and always have been weak on overhangs which require good upper body strength. Having said that some technique is specific to overhanging stuff so there is still something to be gained there by practising more. Your body learns to do these techniques more instinctively.

Al
Pan Ron 19 Nov 2009
In reply to WB:

With all due respect, what grade do you climb indoors? With routes up to F8a at my wall there is more than enough "uncertainty" and feet on "an insecure edge" as outdoors.

The only difference between indoor and outdoor for me is the uncertainty over where the actual hold is. But unless you are onsighting or climbining a route that hasn't been chalked up, even that challenge is often missing.
Derbyshire Ben 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

Don't take this the wrong way, but It's really up to you Howard. Climbing indoors isn't going to make any difference if you want to stick at the level you climb at given your degree of experience. I hate to say this but climbing clubs and sticking to who and what you know best is often really detrimental to your performance level and what you are capable of.

My nextdoor neighbour is 57 and wants to do Positron (E5) at Gogarth next year and has just come back from a two week holiday in Yosemite and climbed several big alpine peaks this Summer. We climb regularly together and only go indoors when the weather is bad but he is as keen as mustard to improve even as he approaches the big six-o.

Anyway, my last post on this thread. I've been generous enough without receiving a reply.
i.munro 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

> The thing is, I used to enjoy it more than I do now. So is it me? Or have the walls changed their emphasis from providing an indoor climbing environment to providing a facility which is aimed much more towards training?

Very much the opposite I'd say at least in the London area.
As more walls open they need to get people in so they push their product more to non-climbers who have no interest in training because they only climb at walls, so, for them, a wall isn't training for a sport it actually is the sport.

So walls are becoming progressively less places to train & more substitute crags.

 Tris.w 19 Nov 2009
Go to a better wall, make sessions fun, be positive. smimple.

worse than the gym?!
 tistimetogo 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:
"Worse than the gym"! Take that back.

Admit that you can't beat a trad day out...

But really set some subtle decent routes/boulder problems if your bored, this can make or break a wall.

In reply to Howard J:

> It's worse than going to the gym - at least there I can listen to music or watch telly while I'm exercising

You're obviously not working very hard if you can watch the telly

Seriously, I feel your pain but it's better than nothing during the bad weather.
 JayK 19 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

I'm just glad I can still climb when its raining, dark, cold and generally miserable. I get to climb at least 4times a week because there is an indoor wall! Obviously it's not as good as outdoors but I'm addicted to climbing and it's a way of feeding my habit....
 Chris F 20 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J: What would you do for exercise if you didn't go to the wall then? I think you would be surprised how quickly your climbing went backwards if you stopped.
OP Howard J 20 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

Yes, I can't believe I said "worse than the gym". I really hate the gym, I'm merely bored with the wall. Of course it's not worse than the gym. I think what I was trying to say was at the gym there are at least distractions from the boredom. I used to enjoy indoor climbing a lot more than I do at the moment.

I'm thinking I should try some different walls in the hope of finding somewhere more suited to my style and approach. I will try going for harder routes, although one of the things that troubles me is that the small holds at climbing walls put a great strain on the fingers, and as I'm a semi-professional musician I'm always anxious to avoid any risk of injury to them.

I've never really thought of climbing as being a "sport", for me it's just one element of experiencing and enjoying the hills. So all the very good advice about training and objectives doesn't really touch a chord with me. Of course, it would help to be stronger and fitter, but the real obstacles preventing me climbing harder are mental rather than physical.

Nevertheless, I think this thread has generated some really useful ideas, and those which perhaps don't suit me will I'm sure be helpful to others.







OP Howard J 20 Nov 2009
In reply to Derbyshire Ben:
> (In reply to Howard J)
>
> Don't take this the wrong way, but It's really up to you Howard. Climbing indoors isn't going to make any difference if you want to stick at the level you climb at given your degree of experience. I hate to say this but climbing clubs and sticking to who and what you know best is often really detrimental to your performance level and what you are capable of.

Ben, I accept that what you say is right, and apologies if I've not offered you a direct reply, but I thought I'd responded to your points in more general terms.

In an earlier post, you said "You've clearly got the skills and experience to climb regularly at the E2 level and I'm curious as to why you don't want to or appear to think you can't do the classic trad adventure routes at that grade." Partly, it's due to a lack of bottle, but it's also because to climb at anything like that grade I'd have to get a lot stronger, which would require a lot of work to achieve and maintain. I'm not convinced that I'd get any more out of climbing at that grade than I do at my current grade. One of the great things about climbing is that the challenge is to your own limits, not anyone else's, and if you're pushing your limit that's just as real whether that limit is V Diff, VS or E2.

 Quiddity 20 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

> Partly, it's due to a lack of bottle, but it's also because to climb at anything like that grade I'd have to get a lot stronger, which would require a lot of work to achieve and maintain.

The point many on this thread are trying to make, is that this is what we see climbing indoors over the winter as primarily being *for*. It's a great place to get stronger, and if you are already investing the time (as you seem to go there regularly to socialise with club members) then it comes at the cost of no additional effort. Getting stronger doesn't always have to involve a herculean effort, if you have got stuck into a routine (which it sounds like you have) than your body will have totally adapted to the demands you are asking of it. Just shaking up your routine might be enough to encourage it to get stronger. Ben has suggested taking a more structured approach, but it could be as little as spending 30 minutes or an hour at the end of every session doing something you wouldn't normally do, like challenging bouldering (if you are a route climber) or maybe hanging off a fingerboard for a bit. The other thing is that gains tend to maintain themselves (providing you don't stop for any length of time) as if you up your grade you tend to keep climbing at the new level.

If this is too big a time investment or you really have no interest, than fair enough. It just sounds like you have settled into a routine with your indoor climbing, which you are bored of but disinclined to do anything about. No one is suggesting it has to be a vast amount of work, just using the time you already invest in a more structured or more motivated manner.

> One of the great things about climbing is that the challenge is to your own limits, not anyone else's, and if you're pushing your limit that's just as real whether that limit is V Diff, VS or E2.

Possibly, but you can't deny that each new grade opens up a wealth of new adventures, many of which you can't really appreciate or access unless you climb at a particular grade. Gogarth, say, is not really worth bothering with unless you are having a stab at HVS, but at that level it is absolutely mind-blowing. Plenty of classic lines and historic routes which open up to you.

No one is going to tell you that you should be climbing harder than you want to, and if you don't find the level of psych required for pushing your grade enjoyable, than fair enough.

The other choice is to accept climbing for what it appears to be to you - an enjoyable way of spending time out on the hill, in good company - and leave it at that. But you are clearly not happy about something (hence this thread) so the question has to be - What do you want?!
 Chris F 20 Nov 2009
In reply to plexiglass_nick: Wise words.
OP Howard J 20 Nov 2009
In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Interesting points. I'd realised I'd fallen into a routine, but it hadn't occurred to me that this means I'm not putting sufficient demands on my body - it certainly doesn't feel like that at times, but I understand what you mean.

What do I want? I used to find that climbing indoors was an acceptable substitute for the real thing for those times when it was impossible to get outside. Now I don't, and I'd like to get that back. That was at a wall which I don't often visit now, because newer walls have opened nearby and my friends prefer to go there. I've come to the conclusion that these walls don't really suit me and I should make the effort to go back to the original one, and perhaps try some others.

Thanks to everyone for their advice and comments.
Derbyshire Ben 20 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

Just keep enjoying it Howard that's what counts.

Cheers,

Ben
 sarahlizzy 20 Nov 2009
There are those of us who pretty much only climb indoors, and as has been said previously, we don't see it as "training" for climbing outside, we see it as an end in itself. Occasional trips outside to climb on rock are seen as something of an occasional curiosity, especially when one has to drive hours to get there. At a good wall with a variety of talented route setters and a variety of different wall types, including featured walls, slabs, overhangs, etc. there's always lots to do, especially if the routes change often. It's a sociable and enjoyable sport in its own right, and it's a pity that some people seem to be displaying such a snobbish attitude, looking down their noses at it. Climbing is ultimately, just a hobby, so what's wrong with enjoying indoor climbing for its own benefits?
 Fatboyteesside 20 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J: I like climbing indoors. The girls are all in one place.
 Ybot Htulk 21 Nov 2009
In reply to sarahlizzy:

> Climbing is ultimately, just a hobby, so what's wrong with enjoying indoor climbing for its own benefits?

Nothing, but rock climbing is better








 sarahlizzy 21 Nov 2009
In reply to Toby Kluth:

Can your dad beat up mine though?
 Ybot Htulk 21 Nov 2009
In reply to sarahlizzy:

Probably
 valentinesbabe 21 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J: I've come to the conclusion I'm just gonna go to the gym and climb outdoors whenever there's a glimmer of sunshine
 stp 23 Nov 2009
In reply to sarahlizzy:

> what's wrong with enjoying indoor climbing for its own benefits?

Spot on.

Personally I'd much prefer to climb in France or Spain most of the time but with various time commitments I'm lucky to even venture outside these days.

I think modern climbing walls (with decent routesetters) are great. Back in 80s climbing walls were crap and in Sheffield there weren't any that were even worth visiting. So we'd happily climb on brick edge walls and do pull ups instead.

If you're not enjoying your climbing I'd suspect it's more to with your attitude rather than where you climb - unless you live somewhere with really crap walls.

You said the newer walls your friends like don't suit you. Why is that? Maybe that just means you're not very good at those? If so see them as more of a challenge. You might have to eat humble pie for a while but in the end working one's weaknesses is the best way you can improve - and it should be anything but dull.
 catt 23 Nov 2009
In reply to sarahlizzy:
> Climbing is ultimately, just a hobby...

Burn the heretic!!

 riddle 23 Nov 2009
In reply to catt: Can we stone the heretic instead? Just so we can all quote Monty Python.
 galpinos 23 Nov 2009
In reply to Derbyshire Ben:

> My nextdoor neighbour is 57 and wants to do Positron (E5) at Gogarth next year and has just come back from a two week holiday in Yosemite and climbed several big alpine peaks this Summer. We climb regularly together and only go indoors when the weather is bad but he is as keen as mustard to improve even as he approaches the big six-o.

Using Brian as an example is not fair. He's kicks my butt now and still will do in 30 years time!

 JFort 23 Nov 2009
In reply to sarahlizzy:
Total;y agree with you there, why do some folk have such an attitude? Ach well healthy debate is good for the soul -

For those of us not able to get out on real rock for all the reasons there is, indoor is great and is a discipline in its own right, if you hate it so much then bugger off and leave the busy routes for people who appreciate it!
 Pete 23 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J: Interesting post. I can appreciate a lot of the points on both sides of the argument. As an avid outdoor trad climber who has had a lot to do with walls (worked with a manufacturer, designed, built, done routesetting, run one for a year, taught on one part-time for sixteen years and used loads of different ones) I have very much a love-hate relationship with them. They provide valuable excercise/training when I can't get outside, but I won't go near one between April and October even if the weather is bad. They do provide a valuable service, hovever, and it is narrow-minded to knock them completely.

What I would say is that most of them could be better. It is possible to set good routes, even by outdoor standards, on a decent wall, but it rarely happens because of the mindset of the routesetters. The prevailing style, regardless of grade, of a large majority of routes is 'thugging' up overhanging walls. I often see grooves, where subtle bridging routes could be made, totally ignored so that 'thugfests' can be put up either side. If it can't be dynoed, hasn't got long reaches and strenuous moves it ain't worth putting often seems to be the prevailing attitude. Maybe a lot of routesetters have never climbed outside because with the skills you can put up decent routes that will please everybody.

Lastly, with regard to grades, most indoor routes bear little relationship to outside equivalents so why use the same system that makes people think that they can climb to a similar grade outside? There is a separate system for bouldering, which is a complete mystery to me, so why not one for inside? (Perhaps "I have just done a W5+" would not have the same ring about it and be bad for egos?
In reply to Howard J:

Why do so many people hate indoor walls so much? It makes no sense. 2 years ago I had exactly the same problem, I used to think that it was just for posers who wanted to show off. I have now come to love the wall as it offers a place to train hard and get fit so when the weather is good I know I can get out there and push it; whether that be trad, sport, or bouldering.

The numerous people on here that complain, generally do so becasue they don't want to put in the effort to train and push their limits. Don't get me wrong; I'd rather get on the real stuff any day, but living in england this is not the case. It also seems that way too many people are bothered about what people will think cause your struggling up a 6a, who gives a sh*t, just ignore them as its probably not the case anyway.

So why not get down the wall, push yourself, use it as a training aid and then come the spring you'll be romping up those trad, sport or bouldering routes that at the end of summer you wouldn't even of dreamed having a go at.Ignore the people who are there and just get on with it, you'll most likely find, as I did, that these people are generally pretty cool and more than willing to help you out with your climbing!

i.munro 25 Nov 2009
In reply to crag_hopper_Jay:

Well I do use them for training as you suggest (or at least try) & sort of even enjoy the process. However if somebody invented an 'instant climbing fitness' pill I'd never set foot in one again.
steve webster 26 Nov 2009
In reply to i.munro:
> (In reply to crag_hopper_Jay)
>
> Well I do use them for training as you suggest (or at least try) & sort of even enjoy the process. However if somebody invented an 'instant climbing fitness' pill I'd never set foot in one again.

what would the point of that be.maybe you should try steroids or epo if you arn't prepared to put the effort in to get the rewards.
 George Ormerod 26 Nov 2009
In reply to Pete:
> What I would say is that most of them could be better. It is possible to set good routes, even by outdoor standards, on a decent wall, but it rarely happens because of the mindset of the routesetters. The prevailing style, regardless of grade, of a large majority of routes is 'thugging' up overhanging walls. I often see grooves, where subtle bridging routes could be made, totally ignored so that 'thugfests' can be put up either side. If it can't be dynoed, hasn't got long reaches and strenuous moves it ain't worth putting often seems to be the prevailing attitude. Maybe a lot of routesetters have never climbed outside because with the skills you can put up decent routes that will please everybody.

You touch on an important point here - are wall routes serving the great unwashed punterdom of British climbing (the trad climber operating in the VS to low E numbers) as a training resource?

Personally, I've noticed that when I've been climbing at my (relative) best indoors it's made no noticable difference to my climbing outdoors. This alone leads to a general demoralisation as to the whole point of 'training' at a wall, when to all intents and purposes you seem to be better served by going out running and keeping your weight under control when the weather's shitty.

I'm sure someone will come along and say that I haven't been training properly, or methodically, and they're probably right.
Sensual Lettuce 26 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J: this topic makes me laugh as i was ranting about indoor climbing the other night. i can only see the point in climbing indoors to improve technique and thats it. as to climbing to the coloured holds whats the point, you tend to grab whatever you can outdoors.

also is it just me or is it that each time you spend over an hour climbing the holds tend to rub your skin so that it hurts or about 3 days after? probs just me

ICEMAN
 AJM 26 Nov 2009
In reply to George Ormerod:

Someones got to be first...

Most people at Walls don't train on them. They may think they do but they do so in a way which doesn't really do them much good in the long run. If you train methodically you should improve physically. The thing that's less trainable for trad is a lead head, but identifying that as your main weakness would allowyou to do something at least at the wall to improve it.

AJM
 Scarab9 26 Nov 2009
In reply to The Iceman:
> (In reply to Howard J) this topic makes me laugh as i was ranting about indoor climbing the other night. i can only see the point in climbing indoors to improve technique and thats it. as to climbing to the coloured holds whats the point, you tend to grab whatever you can outdoors.
>
> also is it just me or is it that each time you spend over an hour climbing the holds tend to rub your skin so that it hurts or about 3 days after? probs just me
>
> ICEMAN


nope me too! Have been climbing on grit for most of the year, then go in doors a week and a half ago and lost several layers of skin on the bends in my fingers and had to wear finger tape for a couple of days at all times cos so painful. Been going every other night ish and it's got better but if you saw the state of my hands from last night you'd think I'd been in a fight!

 George Ormerod 26 Nov 2009
In reply to AJM:

I've identified my weaknesses: Weak, cowardly, piss-poor technique and no endurance. Somehow this hasn't helped.

 staceyjg 26 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

I found that during the summer months, I rarely visited the wall, prefering to spend most weekends outdoors climbing, however, when I did return to the wall, I found that climbing outdoors had left me a little weak as I don't push myself that hard when trad climbing, so although I had been doing what I enjoyed most, my strength had slipped.

I have since found that I have a good balance of indoor and out, but that during the winter months, the balance tips more towards indoor than outdoor and I relish the time I get to spend doing any sort of climbing, taking me away from work, house work and other boring aspects of life.

Stacey
 davidwright 26 Nov 2009
In reply to George Ormerod:
> (In reply to AJM)
>
> I've identified my weaknesses: Weak, cowardly, piss-poor technique and no endurance. Somehow this hasn't helped.

That isn't identifying weaknesses, its just a long winded way of saying "i'm cr@p". That is helpful to training. When the analysis is done usefully weakness is a term relative to you and you alone. Thus you can't be week in all 4 areas for that to be true you would have no strengths. Strong is not strong relative to others its an area where you perform better than would be expected for a climber of your level a weakness is an area which you under perform in compared to your overall performance. If you are by that standard weak in all 4 areas you ought to be judging against a lower standard of performance.

As for your best crag performances not coralating with your best wall sessions I suspect that has a lot to do with when you do your climbing. i.e a winter at the wall after which you are climbing well on the wall followed by a summer on the crags. It takes a few days out for your lead head to come back and so your best trad leads will lag your best wall sessions a bit.
 Pete 27 Nov 2009
In reply to George Ormerod:
> (In reply to Pete)
> [...]
>
> You touch on an important point here - are wall routes serving the great unwashed punterdom of British climbing (the trad climber operating in the VS to low E numbers) as a training resource?

The short answer to that is no. These overhanging 'jugfests' merely have some limited value in increasing stamina. This can just as easily be done by training on the back of a ladder as I used to do before walls. However, as I said there are some good routes on walls. You just have to look hard and they need to be set by good old-fashioned outdoor climbers who appreciate them.

Let's take the much-used 6A grade. If you look at equivalent grade tables in guidebooks it is supposed to equate to E1 5b. The average E1 5b outside will have a fair bit of 5a (rarely juggy and overhanging), some perhaps even easier, with a one or two move 5b crux. Indoor 6A routes inside often overhang ridiculously with big jugs, massive reaches and few rests with little technical merit. You don't have to work out the next hold; it's there highlighted in the appropriate colour. I call them V diffs in an E4 situation. I have often failed completely on such routes because of not having the necessary strength. In comparison, in 41 years of climbing outside, since reaching the E1 grade after a year of climbing, I have rarely failed on an E1. So to equate the two grades is ridiculous in my view; hence my suggestion for a totally separate grading system.

But, I continue my once weekly 'thugging' during winter. It does simulate the movement of climbing to an extent, its a social occasion, it keeps me fit, I pick and choose the routes I do and take the experience with a large pinch of salt. Also, living in the south west, I continue doing a fair bit of climbing outside in winter on deserted crags as I always have done and I have my week climbing in the sun abroad. So maybe, just maybe, the experiences complement each other.
 WB 27 Nov 2009
In reply to Pete:
That is exactly my problem with indoor walls. An overhanging jug haul is neither interesting or good training. However, reading this thread I have taken some inspiration and decided to 'train'. In the last week i visited a couple of walls. One was a perfect example of what can be done. Great routes, varied, interesting and not juggy. The other was exactly what you talked about. Big moves on big holds. Guess which is closer... Anyway cheers Ben for the inspiration. I will continue to visit the wall this winter and if my grade doesn't go up I will be coming to you for a refund
 Quiddity 27 Nov 2009
In reply to Pete:

> The short answer to that is no. These overhanging 'jugfests' merely have some limited value in increasing stamina.

I'm sorry, but this is quite a parochial view. If one is going to Kalymnos, Rodellar, El Chorro, Antalya, Mallorca, Costa Blanca, Thailand, China, etc. etc. then steep climbing on good holds may be very relevant.

> Indoor 6A routes inside often overhang ridiculously with big jugs, massive reaches and few rests with little technical merit. [...] I call them V diffs in an E4 situation. I have often failed completely on such routes because of not having the necessary strength.

Come on, your prejudices are showing. You are falling into the trap of assuming that if you can't get up a particular style of route then you are not strong enough, and hence the route must be technically easy. I have seen many climbers weaker than me gracefully crushing steep routes I can't get near, through having immaculate steep rock technique.
 stp 27 Nov 2009
In reply to Pete:

> I have rarely failed on an E1. So to equate the two grades is ridiculous in my view;

Well the equation is based on the model of typical all round climber who has equal ability in all styles of climbing. The 'overhanging jugfests' are not a style often found on British rock so it's not surprising if you're weak in that style.

Personally I think certain angles lend themselves much better to certain grades. It sounds like your wall is quite limited. At the two lead walls in Sheffield there's quite a bit of vertical stuff and gently overhanging stuff which will be more like an outside E1.

The other thing is that if you only climb once per week you're unlikely to improve much anyway. I think you need a minimum of two days (not consecutive) to really get much fitter and stronger in climbing and 3 is even better.

You might be better off bouldering rather than route climbing if you can find a decent bouldering wall. Apparently there's a good one in Bristol.
 elephant0907 27 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J:

What about the routes that aren'y overhanging jug fests...

I hate overhanging walls so never use them...
 hilty 27 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J: Hating the indoor stuff too, can anyone explain wy i can climb f6c+ onsight outside but only 6b+/6c indoors. can never get psyched for an indoor route an find it very boring. Don't know how people prefer indoor climbing.
 teflonpete 27 Nov 2009
In reply to Pete:

I use two different walls for training and do a mixture of thuggy, juggy, steep routes and more technical, fingery, vertical (more like outdoor UK) routes. In general it's just to maintain fitness and it's the opportunity to engage in some climbing-like movement every week when you live too far away and the weather's too poor to get out on real rock.
I normally climb outdoors on grit and I have to say, most indoor walls are rubbish for training for grit as there are rarely any jamming routes.
 teflonpete 27 Nov 2009
In reply to hilty:
> (In reply to Howard J)Don't know how people prefer indoor climbing.

Do people "prefer" indoor climbing or is it more down to an opportunity to climb "something" due to the constraints of location and weather.
loopyone 27 Nov 2009
In reply to Howard J: I like to do a combination of jug fest's and leading 6a's for stamina, and time on the wall, and then do crimpy routes and 7a's on top rope for technique and finger strength.
 Pete 27 Nov 2009
In reply to plexiglass_nick:
> (In reply to Pete)
>
> [...]
>
> I'm sorry, but this is quite a parochial view. If one is going to Kalymnos, Rodellar, El Chorro, Antalya, Mallorca, Costa Blanca, Thailand, China, etc. etc. then steep climbing on good holds may be very relevant.

Of those I have been several times to Costa Blanca and Mallorca and not found many routes in that category. Can't comment about the others although going to El Chorro in Feb. However, I think you have missed my point. I am not objecting to steep routes, just the style in which they are set, using little imagination. My favourite crag has always been Boulder Ruckle. Many of the first pitches overhang horrendously, but you can invariably save your arms by bridging, jamming and using lots of other subtleties that indoors doesn't provide. The Sloth is another example. For years I avoided it thinking it 'not my style'. When I finally did it I found it an utter doddle because you can jam and use your feet to good effect.. As I said, on indoor walls, I often see bridging techniques totally neglected for the sake of doing a set of dynos up an overhanging wall with no subtlety whatsoever.

> Come on, your prejudices are showing. You are falling into the trap of assuming that if you can't get up a particular style of route then you are not strong enough, and hence the route must be technically easy. I have seen many climbers weaker than me gracefully crushing steep routes I can't get near, through having immaculate steep rock technique.

The 'dyno' type routes up grooves are technically easy. It is painfully obvious what you have to do. Outside I would bridge on the groove walls finding my own holds. Indoors you have to adhere to the style of the particular routesetter and use the coloured holds. And yes, we do have our own particular favourite styles. Mine have always been technical wall and slab climbing. These are somewhat under-represented on indoor walls.

 Pete 27 Nov 2009
In reply to stp:
> (In reply to Pete)
>
> [...]
> Personally I think certain angles lend themselves much better to certain grades. It sounds like your wall is quite limited. At the two lead walls in Sheffield there's quite a bit of vertical stuff and gently overhanging stuff which will be more like an outside E1.

No, the wall isn't limited, but the point I have been making is that the routesetting is. I also made the positive point that good routes have been set so the example is there to see. Perhaps some of the routesetters 'need to get out more!'
 sebf 27 Nov 2009
I am in the minority it seems, and I love climbing indoors. Outside is good too, but I climb for the physical challenge more than anything. I started climbing as a training aid for my mountain bike racing, and it's still very much that. I climb outside maybe 2-3 times a year - I'm always on my bike, don't get the time. So indoors in the week it is, and I love it. Infinitely more fun/sociable than going to the gym.
mae 28 Nov 2009
In reply to tallsop: if you aint flyin you aint tryin!
 Quiddity 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Pete:

Ok, I do take your point now you have taken the time to explain it a little. I suppose indoors is always going to lack the subtlety of real rock, but I am a firm believer that indoor climbing is what you make of it.

> As I said, on indoor walls, I often see bridging techniques totally neglected for the sake of doing a set of dynos up an overhanging wall with no subtlety whatsoever.

Hmm, well I would agree that bridging opportunities are often neglected by those who are into steep climbing (guilty as charged) though I don't agree that there is a clear division between subtle 'clever' techniques which basically consist of static techniques, and your characterisation of dynamic climbing as 'doing a set of dynos up an overhanging wall with no subtlety whatsoever'. Also I hate to point it out, but being able to see the move and being able to execute it are not the same thing, and if the former is easy it doesn't necessarily make it an easy but pointless move. With respect, I think you might be limiting your horizons by negatively characterising a style for tackling overhanging routes. Though climbing is a broad church and you are clearly entitled to do this, particularly if your style of climbing indoors matches what you do outdoors.

in my experience (and apologies if this is not what you mean) any sort of move which uses dynamic movement (ie. intelligent use of momentum to move from position to position) gets referred to as a 'dyno' by people who mostly only climb statically. You quite often see people who mostly climb vertical technical walls failing on these, because they are not used to co-ordinating the movement, and are unwilling to 'bounce' a little to unweight a limb in order to advance it. They also usually focus with 'pulling' with their arms rather than 'pushing' with their feet. Proper 'dynos' are an actual jump which result in lower limbs losing contact with the rock and (again, IME) really don't get used that much for routes (boulder problems tend to be different) unless you are/think you are chris sharma, as it almost always isn't an efficient way to climb.

Static climbing has its place, it is controlled and defensive and more useful for uk trad climbing as you usually retain the option of reversing the moves, and it gives you more time to latch small holds properly. Dynamic climbing is more committing and aggressive but it really is the most efficient way to move on steep rock in many cases, as you bypass the often strenuous static positions between holds, and catch each new hold at the 'deadpoint' where your body is momentarily motionless at the top of each dynamic movement. When you watch monkeys or apes climbing, they all make intelligent use of momentum because it is the most efficient way to move, and I don't think you could realistically say that there is 'no subtlety whatsoever' in the way they climb.

I can't see your logbook so can't see which crags you went to on the CB, but did you try anything at Gandia or the Wild Side at Sella? Mallorca and Chorro I can't comment. Kalymnos is the prime example of what I mean, where holds can often be huge given the grade, because the climbing is ludicrously steep. They can be very technical, with success/failure being determined by spotting creative rests and bridging/drop knee opportunities, but much of the 'bread and butter' of the climbing is short dynamic boulder problem style climbing between creatively contorted rests, or sprinting through long sections of relatively straightforward climbing before your arms pump out. Interestingly, part of Kaly's reputation for soft grades comes from people who train indoors getting out there and finding it easy, as the styles of climbing translate quite well.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree to an extent. You clearly like styles of climbing which emphasise static movement, ie. technical walls and slabs, bridging and jamming opportunities, probably mostly trad. Whereas personally I like steep dynamic climbing, usually sport, because I am weak and climbing dynamically is a way to move through ground that you would have to be a lot stronger than I am to tackle statically.

In terms of how walls cater for each style, it will clearly depend on your wall and route setters. Personally I think the walls I go to regularly cater well to most styles, with technical wall routes and overhanging routes on good holds (I would say 'jug fests' though to be honest as o/h routes get harder the holds get smaller as they do on vertical walls, and you need to be just as technical to advance your grade) and hybrid routes thereof. I agree there is often a tendency (more on the boulder walls) for things to be steeper and holds to be bigger than is useful for training for outdoor routes. But if you aren't happy with what gets set, why not make up routes or circuits using your own choice of holds? You can adjust the difficulty and style to whatever you want.
 Pete 01 Dec 2009
In reply to plexiglass_nick: Very lucidly put and I don't disagree in the main. I was brought up on your stated methodology of static climbing through a mainly trad background, coming to walls and sport climbing later in my climbing career. I always admired the style of climbing epitomised by Johny Dawes in 'Stone Monkey', which is more or less what you have been describing. I enjoy sport climbing (especially in warm countries in the depths of English winter!) and, sometimes to an extent, indoor wall climbing. As you say there is room for all styles and I would never utterly condemn wall climbing like the original poster on this thread. My main point really is that the routesetting on most walls seems to produce a preponderance of climbing of one particular style and that is not largely relevant to the style of climbing that I and a lot of others enjoy.
 David Coley 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Pete: All though it's a bit far from you, one wall that might fit more closely with the type of climbing you like would be the Barn Climbing Centre (Goggle it). Several technical slabs and walls with hard crux-like moves. The Climbing Academy in Bristol also has a lot of non jug-like boulder problems at UK5c and upward.

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