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I went to Mt Blanc and my 45 liters wasn't large enough. I am looking to replace that with a 55 liter rucksack - which I would also use for weekend rock-climbing trips. What rucksack would you recommend? Would you buy one of those foldable, frameless, lightweight ones (which are around 1.5 kg), or a full frame, 3-3.5kg rucksack?
In reply to alps_p:
Unless you are bivvying or doing something unconventional, you are carrying too much. Be ruthless about what's in and on your bag.
> I went to Mt Blanc and my 45 liters wasn't large enough. I am looking to replace that with a 55 liter rucksack - which I would also use for weekend rock-climbing trips. What rucksack would you recommend? Would you buy one of those foldable, frameless, lightweight ones (which are around 1.5 kg), or a full frame, 3-3.5kg rucksack?
Unless you are bivvying or doing something unconventional, you are carrying too much. Be ruthless about what's in and on your bag.
In reply to peterd:
I agree, that's far too large for 2/3 day routes.
In summer get away with 35 l (plus a mat) for a trip like that where I have a bunch of camera kit and a few comforts with me. I suppose I could strip it back to 30 ish but the bivi would be cold and the photos not so great. 30 l is still heavy, I am sure some guys on here will be like "whoa 30 l is way too much for MB" but I am a wimp.
What are you carrying may I ask? Are you using the hut systems or digging holes? What time of year and how many in your group?
Cheers
PS I may add that its awesome that you still carry that sort of load, I think the shear training and bloddlymindedness something the UK climbers are losing.
I agree, that's far too large for 2/3 day routes.
In summer get away with 35 l (plus a mat) for a trip like that where I have a bunch of camera kit and a few comforts with me. I suppose I could strip it back to 30 ish but the bivi would be cold and the photos not so great. 30 l is still heavy, I am sure some guys on here will be like "whoa 30 l is way too much for MB" but I am a wimp.
What are you carrying may I ask? Are you using the hut systems or digging holes? What time of year and how many in your group?
Cheers
PS I may add that its awesome that you still carry that sort of load, I think the shear training and bloddlymindedness something the UK climbers are losing.
In reply to peterd: well we had a tent between us (strapped to the outside of the sack, that is to say), sleeping bag itself (these are huge aren't they?) took more than half the space in my 45l sack,fleece, hardshell, gloves, hat, helmet, camera, water bottle.. I don't think you can do without many of these setting off from Gouter at 1 in the morning, when it's rather cold? Then on the other hand, when walking back to Chamonix, it can be roasting, so you really want all of this stuff in your bag, and just a t-shirt and sunglasses on you..
In reply to alps_p:
You need a new sleeping bag not a new rucksack by the sounds of that what make and modle are you using?
> (In reply to peterd) sleeping bag itself (these are huge aren't they?) took more than half the space in my 45l sack,
You need a new sleeping bag not a new rucksack by the sounds of that what make and modle are you using?
In reply to Ricky Martin: haha I don't know, it's an old one. It's a good warm down-filled sleeping bag, but admittedly rather bulky.
In reply to Ricky Martin: haha I don't know, it's an old one. It's a good warm down-filled sleeping bag, but admittedly rather bulky.
In reply to alps_p:
Assuming summer not winter then you only need a snug 2 or 3 season sleeping bag which will compress down to maybe 3 litres (and that's for synthetic bags). I've never bothered with camping high in the alps - leave the tent in the valley and bivvy.
For sleeping mat, get a cheap foam one and cut out three sections that will slip into the sleeve at the back of your sack (taking out the useless "bodyform" system that's in there). Tape them together if needs be.
Getting what you need (not want) into a small rucksack isn't hard, you just need to be ruthless about things. If your wallet is prepared to suffer the cost then using the huts makes sense and will lessen your load even more.
ALC
Assuming summer not winter then you only need a snug 2 or 3 season sleeping bag which will compress down to maybe 3 litres (and that's for synthetic bags). I've never bothered with camping high in the alps - leave the tent in the valley and bivvy.
For sleeping mat, get a cheap foam one and cut out three sections that will slip into the sleeve at the back of your sack (taking out the useless "bodyform" system that's in there). Tape them together if needs be.
Getting what you need (not want) into a small rucksack isn't hard, you just need to be ruthless about things. If your wallet is prepared to suffer the cost then using the huts makes sense and will lessen your load even more.
ALC
In reply to alps_p: Sounds like that may be the place to start My -10 bag only takes up about 1/4 of my 45 sack and my summer bag even less
In reply to Ricky Martin: anyway I still need a rucksack, my old one has broken (no zips work, for example, although I'm fully prepared to be told by hardcore alpine climbers to duck-tape the pockets instead
Do these lightweight, frame-less rucksacks work well?
Do these lightweight, frame-less rucksacks work well?
In reply to alps_p: If you want something all purpose Have a look at POD's cragsac or black Ice would be my suggestion I have a cragsac and they are really good IMHO simple and comfy. Macpac Pursuit is another good one Lowe Alpine mountain pro's and if you on a budget the Berghaus Arete 45 is dificult to beat for value although the harness isnt to everyones taste. all of these should be good for Alpine/Scottish Winter/Cragging/Lightwight backpacking etc. Beware of too many whistles and bells as they add unnecessary weight one that can be striped down is nice but not essential.
and Beware of those who tell you tell you that you only need a 30 liter sac. as seems to be the fashion. Yes some people can manage but I always find it difficult to get all my gear back in a crap weather. the weight difference between a striped 45 and an unstriped 30 (Most of which cant be) isnt huge certainly no enough to worry about for me.
and Beware of those who tell you tell you that you only need a 30 liter sac. as seems to be the fashion. Yes some people can manage but I always find it difficult to get all my gear back in a crap weather. the weight difference between a striped 45 and an unstriped 30 (Most of which cant be) isnt huge certainly no enough to worry about for me.
In reply to alps_p: What do you mean by Frameless rucksacks?
In reply to alps_p:
modern sacs come either without a back system, boned like a corset with plastic in the back or with two Al rods running up the back. I haven't seen an X system (like the Cyclops III) or a cradle in a long time.
The style used depends on the size and expected load and degree of comfort required (over other uses like weight or fitting - many others)
you will find that sacs at the 50 l ish tend to not have more than a touch of stiff foam in the back and considering the "normal heavy" weight uasage for a sac that size is sub 25 kg there would never be a problem (if the bag fits right - yes you need to get a sac fitted).
so yes they work well.
As for the 30 l thing. It all depends on whats in your bag and whats round your waist and what route you are on. I am lucky enough to have good kit.
modern sacs come either without a back system, boned like a corset with plastic in the back or with two Al rods running up the back. I haven't seen an X system (like the Cyclops III) or a cradle in a long time.
The style used depends on the size and expected load and degree of comfort required (over other uses like weight or fitting - many others)
you will find that sacs at the 50 l ish tend to not have more than a touch of stiff foam in the back and considering the "normal heavy" weight uasage for a sac that size is sub 25 kg there would never be a problem (if the bag fits right - yes you need to get a sac fitted).
so yes they work well.
As for the 30 l thing. It all depends on whats in your bag and whats round your waist and what route you are on. I am lucky enough to have good kit.
In reply to alps_p:
Firstly, despite what Ricky Martin says, I do all my guiding work with a 30l sac. This includes day routes, two-day routes, up to six day tours on skis or on foot. It makes you discipline yourself a bit and question whether you need so and so... BUT I use huts. However, what on earth on Mont Blanc couldn't you get into a 45l sac???
Secondly, I also have a 60l (ish) Golite sac for multi day hikes in the States like the John Muir Trail, where you need tent, sleeping gear, food in a bear barrel etc, for up to maybe ten days at a time. Big sacs don't have to weigh a lot - mine is just over half a kilo.
Seriously, take a good hard look at what you are carrying. Then chuck half of it away... A light sac makes things far more enjoyable.
Firstly, despite what Ricky Martin says, I do all my guiding work with a 30l sac. This includes day routes, two-day routes, up to six day tours on skis or on foot. It makes you discipline yourself a bit and question whether you need so and so... BUT I use huts. However, what on earth on Mont Blanc couldn't you get into a 45l sac???
Secondly, I also have a 60l (ish) Golite sac for multi day hikes in the States like the John Muir Trail, where you need tent, sleeping gear, food in a bear barrel etc, for up to maybe ten days at a time. Big sacs don't have to weigh a lot - mine is just over half a kilo.
Seriously, take a good hard look at what you are carrying. Then chuck half of it away... A light sac makes things far more enjoyable.
In reply to jon: In all seriousness what do you carry to manage that? I can just manage that for winter hill walking but not climbing. Perhaps its just another reason I need to loose weight so I can buy smaller clothes. and I dont think that I am carry too many things I am carefull to only carry the essentials
In reply to alps_p: Ive got the osprey mutant - large back length is about 42l i think. It's great i really like it, well made. The silly racking system seems a bit ott tho. Also my 3/4 season down bad gets lost in it when compressed!
In reply to alps_p:
I've noticed one manufacter's 45l can seem to be quite different from another's. Perhaps this is the source of some people's "I get all my stuff in a 30l sac" talk.
I've noticed one manufacter's 45l can seem to be quite different from another's. Perhaps this is the source of some people's "I get all my stuff in a 30l sac" talk.
In reply to Ricky Martin:
Maybe it's more what I don't carry that makes the difference. I never carry any bivvy gear. I don't carry 'just that other spare fleece', just in case... I don't carry spare cothes. I don't take War and Peace with me. I use huts and buy all food - on a six day trip I'll buy lunch food there as well.
What I do find makes a lot of difference is my approach to clothing now. I take one long sleeve shirt which I wear all the time. I wear a thin pair or stretchy trousers, sometimes over shorts. I take a wind stopper gilet - I try to wear that all the time. Then I have two synthetic insulated jackets (Nano and Infinity), one of which lives in the bottom of my sac. Then a Paclite top and overtrousers - both of these only if the meteo is dodgy - if it's fine I'll ditch the O'trousers and maybe the jacket as well, but not always. Couple of pairs of gloves or a pair of mitts if I'm going high. Woolly hat and sun hat - I'll be wearing one all the time. Small first aid kit with space blanket, and mobile phone. Used to carry a radio but these have gone out of fashion. Bit of food and half a litre of water. Rope goes over my shoulders. Crampons just under the lid. Axe on the outside (and helmet if I take one). Harness under the lid with the crampons, when I'm not wearing it. Any gear in beyond a glacier kit goes in the sac. Sac cover but NO sac liner. Important thing to remember is that if you stuff all your things into separate stuff bags they'll take up twice the space they take up if you just stuff them into any empty spaces in the sac...!
Basically, I try to work it so that when I'm actually climbing, the only things left in my sac are food, water bottle, one of the hats and my second insulation layer - then I tuck the lid into the sac a cinch it all down and it's so small I forget about it. In summer, ie not skiing i'll remove or fold away the waist belt as I can't stand clutter around my waist. The only time the sac seems full is walking up to a hut. I have an old Karrimor Hot Earth and a Deuter 30L Guide - both weigh just over a kilo and are so far indestructible. God knows what I'll do when they finally die!
Maybe it's more what I don't carry that makes the difference. I never carry any bivvy gear. I don't carry 'just that other spare fleece', just in case... I don't carry spare cothes. I don't take War and Peace with me. I use huts and buy all food - on a six day trip I'll buy lunch food there as well.
What I do find makes a lot of difference is my approach to clothing now. I take one long sleeve shirt which I wear all the time. I wear a thin pair or stretchy trousers, sometimes over shorts. I take a wind stopper gilet - I try to wear that all the time. Then I have two synthetic insulated jackets (Nano and Infinity), one of which lives in the bottom of my sac. Then a Paclite top and overtrousers - both of these only if the meteo is dodgy - if it's fine I'll ditch the O'trousers and maybe the jacket as well, but not always. Couple of pairs of gloves or a pair of mitts if I'm going high. Woolly hat and sun hat - I'll be wearing one all the time. Small first aid kit with space blanket, and mobile phone. Used to carry a radio but these have gone out of fashion. Bit of food and half a litre of water. Rope goes over my shoulders. Crampons just under the lid. Axe on the outside (and helmet if I take one). Harness under the lid with the crampons, when I'm not wearing it. Any gear in beyond a glacier kit goes in the sac. Sac cover but NO sac liner. Important thing to remember is that if you stuff all your things into separate stuff bags they'll take up twice the space they take up if you just stuff them into any empty spaces in the sac...!
Basically, I try to work it so that when I'm actually climbing, the only things left in my sac are food, water bottle, one of the hats and my second insulation layer - then I tuck the lid into the sac a cinch it all down and it's so small I forget about it. In summer, ie not skiing i'll remove or fold away the waist belt as I can't stand clutter around my waist. The only time the sac seems full is walking up to a hut. I have an old Karrimor Hot Earth and a Deuter 30L Guide - both weigh just over a kilo and are so far indestructible. God knows what I'll do when they finally die!
In reply to alps_p: I use the deuter guide light 45+, it is quite bulky, but really well balanced when it come to getting accross rough stuff, I has an x system frame which is removeable and it also has the advantage of the customisable inside.
In reply to jon:
Exactly! I tend to carry crampons on the outside of the sack, just habit I suppose.
OK, it does depend on the route and the altitude but most (British) folk take far too much kit on alpine routes. I'd pack a different sack for a route on l'M than for say the Walker Spur or the Peuterey Ridge.
Folk seem to take kit on a "what if" basis and then complain that they can't fit it into a small sack and complain about the weight. The problem is really that you need some experience of what is useful and what isn't before you can start leaving stuff behind.
Different people have different likes and dislikes and levels of comfort but you shouldn't be looking at hotel style comfort on bivvies. The only time that you should be carrying full bivvy kit is if you are expecting to bivvy on-route or you are descending via a different side of the mountain, at other times a couple of chocolate bars and a bivvy bag will get you through the night even if in a bit of discomfort.
ALC
Exactly! I tend to carry crampons on the outside of the sack, just habit I suppose.
OK, it does depend on the route and the altitude but most (British) folk take far too much kit on alpine routes. I'd pack a different sack for a route on l'M than for say the Walker Spur or the Peuterey Ridge.
Folk seem to take kit on a "what if" basis and then complain that they can't fit it into a small sack and complain about the weight. The problem is really that you need some experience of what is useful and what isn't before you can start leaving stuff behind.
Different people have different likes and dislikes and levels of comfort but you shouldn't be looking at hotel style comfort on bivvies. The only time that you should be carrying full bivvy kit is if you are expecting to bivvy on-route or you are descending via a different side of the mountain, at other times a couple of chocolate bars and a bivvy bag will get you through the night even if in a bit of discomfort.
ALC
In reply to jon: OK I see your point some interesting comment in there which I'll bear in mind. a Hot Earth is 40 Liters by the way but indeed the hot series are almost indistructable apart from the buckles mine have broken . But its not carrying the bivi gear that makes it a posiblity then which is where I fail as soon as Sleeping Bag (ME Dewline so not big), Bothy, Stove small pan and gas arrive I cant mange that in 30ltrs
In reply to Ricky Martin:
My apologies... my mistake, my sac is Hot Rock 30L. I'm not surprised you can't fit all that in 30L! Think light.
My apologies... my mistake, my sac is Hot Rock 30L. I'm not surprised you can't fit all that in 30L! Think light.
In reply to jon: I am thinking Light your just thinking bloody light
In reply to Ricky Martin:
No I'm not - I'm thinking of my poor old body!
> (In reply to jon) I am thinking Light your just thinking bloody light
No I'm not - I'm thinking of my poor old body!
In reply to alps_p: Once upon a time, I could pack gear for a scottish winter trip of a couple of nights, including full rack, ropes, stove, tent, shared between two, and all the usual gear, about 500 spair pairs of socks, spare clothes and a lot of food, often fresh fruit and heavy stuff like that, into a 35l sack. I don't know how I did it but it would inevitably fit, after a lengthy ramming session.
Nowadays, I have a 100l pack, and use it a lot, packing is so easy. I take less gear than I used to, but, depending on the route, and if we'll be setting a base camp, I will take along a lot of unneccasary food and stuff, it might make me a little slower, but the increase in moral is worth it.
I have occasionally gone to the opposite extreme when not planning to bivy in alpine summer, but where it might happen, one small bag (25l) between two, one bivy bag shared in it, a jumper, map and compass, no sleeping bag, one sandwich each, maybe a bar of chocolate, a pack of emergency nuts, headtorch, reel of zinc oxide tape, a bandage, a pair of gloves and one mitts each, bottle of water, other guy just carries the rope and skeleton rack. Helmets are worn all the time.
Nowadays, I have a 100l pack, and use it a lot, packing is so easy. I take less gear than I used to, but, depending on the route, and if we'll be setting a base camp, I will take along a lot of unneccasary food and stuff, it might make me a little slower, but the increase in moral is worth it.
I have occasionally gone to the opposite extreme when not planning to bivy in alpine summer, but where it might happen, one small bag (25l) between two, one bivy bag shared in it, a jumper, map and compass, no sleeping bag, one sandwich each, maybe a bar of chocolate, a pack of emergency nuts, headtorch, reel of zinc oxide tape, a bandage, a pair of gloves and one mitts each, bottle of water, other guy just carries the rope and skeleton rack. Helmets are worn all the time.
In reply to alps_p:
sounds like the s/bags the issue. but been thru all that already.
packs:
yep, you can go 35L, so long as you spend another few hundred pounds getting all the ultralight stuff to go in it, unless youve got that already but i doesnt sound like it.
i like the 65l exped from millet. yep, its huge. expands to about 85L. BUT whole things cinchs down to about 40, weighs 1.5kg (bit less stripped) and has a full length-ways zip that gives you easy access.
with its size you can ditch a full mat and chuck a 3/4 thermarest inside, using the pack for the lower half. hell, its even big enough to use as half a bivvy set up!!
just unzip it chuck all youre stuff in like a duffle.
other stuffs smaller, maybe a bit lighter. but ill carry an extra 100gms if it equals ease of use and adaptability.
sounds like the s/bags the issue. but been thru all that already.
packs:
yep, you can go 35L, so long as you spend another few hundred pounds getting all the ultralight stuff to go in it, unless youve got that already but i doesnt sound like it.
i like the 65l exped from millet. yep, its huge. expands to about 85L. BUT whole things cinchs down to about 40, weighs 1.5kg (bit less stripped) and has a full length-ways zip that gives you easy access.
with its size you can ditch a full mat and chuck a 3/4 thermarest inside, using the pack for the lower half. hell, its even big enough to use as half a bivvy set up!!
just unzip it chuck all youre stuff in like a duffle.
other stuffs smaller, maybe a bit lighter. but ill carry an extra 100gms if it equals ease of use and adaptability.
In reply to ice.solo:
It's interesting how different people address the rucsac question... Personally, the longer and harder the route, the smaller and lighter my pack. Speed is everything. I've never had to bivvy (unplanned), er, except at the top of DNB in Yosemite, but thats another story!
The topic title included the words 'short alpine trips'. Can't see why you need the kitchen sink for that...
It's interesting how different people address the rucsac question... Personally, the longer and harder the route, the smaller and lighter my pack. Speed is everything. I've never had to bivvy (unplanned), er, except at the top of DNB in Yosemite, but thats another story!
The topic title included the words 'short alpine trips'. Can't see why you need the kitchen sink for that...
In reply to alps_p: i go as light as i can so i use my crux AK47 which when I'm actually on a route tends to be empty because if it's in there for the walk in i intend to use it and don't really tend to bother with what if kit so when on a climb all i have in there is belay jacket (if I'm not belaying) a platypus, small first aid kit, silk sleeping bag liner if I'm staying in a hut and a light weight silver bivi bag things, head torch stays on helmet all day that way if you do take too long you don't have to rummage around for it in the dark.
In reply to alps_p: Hi for day trip climbs I've used a petzl bug at 18L and 500g and if a bivi out planned, a 40L sac at 1.3kg which would have about ten litres spare if out for one night.Thats 2L of juice on a day trip with one of these replaced with with a jetboil for bivi.I try to keep the weight as low as but find it's more effective for balance and movement to target compactness.
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