/ Access and 'long walk ins' in Scotland

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
lummox - on 30 Nov 2009
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/8385936.stm

anybody pick up on this ? According to the article, only 'very fit people ' can access crags like those on Beinn Dearg ( Emerald Gully ) near Ullapool.FFS.It`s only two hours under heavy snow for an unfit, lazy barsteward like me.

Thin end of the wedge as far as I`m concerned.

fishy1 - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to lummox: Totally opposed. Improving tracks to make them more cyclable would be a good idea in some cases though.
eroica64 - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to lummox: No, a thousand times no. Don't do this. We don't want to step aside for effing 4X4s and smell their diesel and hear their noise and see their effing tracks in the boggy parts of tracks. Enough already.
woodybenwood - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to eroica64: damn right mate
prog99 on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to fishy1:
Indeed , especially as the Beinn Dearg path is already waymarked and a straightforward cycle.
andrew ogilvie - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Mike_Watson_99: Quite the reverse please...I'd be all for a gate on Glen Etive,like the ones at Strathfarrar and Loch Fannich: the long walk is part of the adventure.
Lone Rider - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to eroica64: Why not I've got an X-trail for that very reason!
prog99 on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to andrew ogilvie:
> (In reply to Mike_Watson_99) Quite the reverse please...I'd be all for a
I think thats what I meant?

Andy Nisbet - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to lummox:

I have the opposite opinion. Walking along some forest track is not part of the adventure, it's just a drag and takes time when you could be enjoying the scenery and climbing out in the open. Not everyone is young, fit and has the latest mountain bike. So let us enjoy it and a few walkers or climbers hardly damages the environment. No new tracks but lets make use of the existing ones.
Gav M - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Andy Nisbet:

I partially agree with you Andy, but it's not just walkers and climbers who would use the tracks for access - how would you keep the 'off-roaders' out once you'd removed the gates?

Recently I was asked at work if I knew of any off road tracks in the Cairngorms. The questioner did not want to cycle or walk, he wanted to hoon around in his new 4x4. I've no doubt that the person concerned would go out of his way to drive through puddles at speed so he could splash walkers or climbers with muddy water.

fishy1 - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Andy Nisbet: If you're allowing cars in, surely you also have to allow motorbikes and other such things?

Amused me that the only one in favour so far is a guide. :P
Andy Nisbet - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to fishy1:

You used to be allowed to drive up. It's only more recently that the gate has been locked. I've been up that road at least 10 times, and only once was I guiding. I was only thinking of us poor climbers walking up while the forestry workers drive past us. The Beinn Dearg suggestion is a combination lock system like Strathfarrar, not just opening up to the public.
prog99 on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to lummox:

I guess the comments should be directed to here?

http://www.mcofs.org.uk/pitch-in-messages.asp?s=2&id=MCS-X10006
MG - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
> (In reply to lummox)
>
> I have the opposite opinion. Walking along some forest track is not part of the adventure, it's just a drag and takes time when you could be enjoying the scenery and climbing out in the open. Not everyone is young, fit and has the latest mountain bike. So let us enjoy it and a few walkers or climbers hardly damages the environment.

I don't think that's true. The more accessible an area is the less wild it feels and the more problems such as erosion occur. Compare the Northern Corries to say the depths of Ben Alder Forest. There are plenty of accessible cliffs and mountain areas for those who want them. There is no need to make everywhere easily accesible.
fishy1 - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Andy Nisbet: I am even more opposed to just letting climbers up than opening the road to the public.
Geoffrey Michaels on 30 Nov 2009 - host86-157-166-168.range86-157.btcentralplus.com
In reply to andrew ogilvie:

I can see where you are coming from but disagree. I don't think many others who actually need to use these areas on a non-tourist basis would agree either.

Personally I'd like to see many more people able to gain access to the hills in Scotland but I don't think opening up forestr tracks to cars is the best way to do it.
fishy1 - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Donald M: What do you think is the best way?

andrew ogilvie - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Donald M: I'd be happy to give keys to non tourist users.
andrew ogilvie - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Mike_Watson_99:I can see that we were in agreement earlier I think I just lazily failed to direct my reply . Apologies.
Geoffrey Michaels on 30 Nov 2009 - host86-157-166-168.range86-157.btcentralplus.com
In reply to fishy1:

Education and a change in emphasis away from viewing based activity such as football. An expansion of outward bound types of experiences for young people also.
ads.ukclimbing.com
fishy1 - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to andrew ogilvie: What do you mean, what's an example of a non-tourist user? Even stuff like deer management, that's all tourist related.
Geoffrey Michaels on 30 Nov 2009 - host86-157-166-168.range86-157.btcentralplus.com
In reply to andrew ogilvie:

Cool but I think your view of wild land is fairly specialist. Many people like driving up Glen Cannich and such places to see the views and feel the place. I don't think that should be taken away from them.
fishy1 - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Donald M: You could argue that climbing is a viewing based activity to an extent, we watch videos of people climbing, we watch footballers playing on tv.
Geoffrey Michaels on 30 Nov 2009 - host86-157-166-168.range86-157.btcentralplus.com
In reply to fishy1:

You could but I think you would loose that argument.
fishy1 - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Donald M: I'm sure there's plenty of middle aged men who like watching a video of dave mac or johnny dawes doing hard stuff, just like there's plenty of the same type who like watching chelsea arsenal on a sunday afternoon.

One will occasionally get out for a park kickabout, the other ticks off a few vs's when he can.



Geoffrey Michaels on 30 Nov 2009 - host86-157-166-168.range86-157.btcentralplus.com
In reply to fishy1: Cool, sell your idea to Sky then as it might make money.
I think the reality is that climbing viewing is a tiny industry.

Anyway, back to thread. More mountain bike tracks please!
fishy1 - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Donald M: But so is the amount of people getting out climbing.

millions watch football, millions play it.
thousands climb, thousands watch it.
andrew ogilvie - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Donald M: Further to all this when I visited Strathfarrar I did not drive up, I cycled up and camped and feel the experience was richer for it. In the same way I feel the walk in to Culra Bothy (which would be perfectly possible to drive)adds an extra dimension to the experience of these hills.So I say again the long walk in is part of the adventure, or at least changes the adventure.
I'm not really sure how the hills could be made much more accessible , look at Arrochar, Schiehallion, Stac Pollaidh, Cairngorm, Glen Coe, Beinn Eighe, Ben Lomond, Glen Shee, Ben Lawers etc.
fishy1 - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to andrew ogilvie: You could drive to culra bothy in a car? Unless you mean 4WD, I see it being difficult. It's a difficult cycle on a road bike.

I dunno if bothies could function if roadside, heard of one near aviemore that appartently gets trashed every so often.
Geoffrey Michaels on 30 Nov 2009 - host86-157-166-168.range86-157.btcentralplus.com
In reply to andrew ogilvie:

I agree but I don't think you should limit the access that currently exists. The history of much of the BMC and MCofS is one of fighting for, amnd winning access. Then denying that to people but putting a locked gate across the glen goes against that.

It also doesn't take account of the fact that many people enjoy the hills without walking on them.

I enjoyed Strathfarrar the last 4 times I went there, each one at a different time of day and by different means.
fishy1 - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to andrew ogilvie: Well, just thinking about it, apparently they used to drive cattle through the lairig ghru, so at one time the track must have been reasonable ish.
Guy "Fawksey" Wilson - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Donald M: Donald while I respect it is your countryside and you are entitled to your opinion, do we really need to encourage more cars into places that are the last difficult places to get to? Shouldnt we not protect the last long walk ins from vehicles and those like guides who are driven by commercialism?

F. MCofS member.
Geoffrey Michaels on 30 Nov 2009 - host86-157-166-168.range86-157.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Fawksey:

You have completely misunderstood what I said. I said I didn't want to limit access which currently exists. I didn't say I wanted to encourage car use.

If you are against commercialism then you are against this site. Guides and instructors add to the economy.
fishy1 - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Donald M: Out of interest, are you pro bolting in the mountains?
Guy "Fawksey" Wilson - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Donald M:
> (In reply to Fawksey)
> If you are against commercialism then you are against this site. Guides and instructors add to the economy.

absolutely

Guy "Fawksey" Wilson - on 30 Nov 2009
In reply to Donald M:

Im not against guides per se but I am against commercial interests being above everyone elses.
Geoffrey Michaels on 01 Dec 2009 - cnag4.gotadsl.co.uk
In reply to fishy1:

No
Geoffrey Michaels on 01 Dec 2009 - cnag4.gotadsl.co.uk
In reply to Fawksey:

Agreed but that is a hypothetical scenario as guides and instructors' interests or commercial ones are not above everything else.
lummox - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Andy Nisbet: Last time I walked into Beinn Dearg, a bloke set off in front of us on a mountainbike and got to the big deer fence/gate about twenty metres ahead of us. We aren't young or fit : )
Erik B - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Donald M: i think part of the deal for allowing hydro development should be that the public can use the roads, it actually annoys me the attitude to private roads in scotland. The strathfarrar example works, folk who put the effort in get access and filters out the buckied up radges. and for the billionaire owned estates you could have a small fee for upkeep of the roads/tracks as we wouldnt want them to dig into their huge pockets, and forestry commission...bla bla

While I am at it, lets encourage more hydro development instead of bloody wind farms! I tell you, wind farms are a money spinner, any young folk wondering what industry to go into, I would say avoid IT (which is dead and buried) and get into wind turbine installaton! Hydro can be done without ruining wilderness, the only one I have voted against was the one near baosbheinn as it was poorly thought out, much better places than that.

lets get independence and sell green electricity to the flat plains of albion

rant over
Trangia - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to lummox:

I have mixed feelings about this. I agree with Andy Nisbet that long forestry tracks are not really part of the adventure and can be a drag. I also speak as an older climber with knee joints which are past their sell by date who wants to get the most out of a mountain adventure without too much pain resulting from a monotonous walk in. Whilst still capable of long walks in most older people are slower which reduces the quality time on the hill.

On the other hand the very fact of a long walk in increases the sense of remoteness and decreases the numbers on the hill which is part of the appeal of it.

As you say it may be the thin end of the wedge, but at 39 you speak as a relatively young person still, although you admit to some creaking! Try and put yourself in the shoes of people 25 - 30 years older than you and imagine what it is like to see your choices shinking?

As with most things in life it's a matter of balance. Maybe the scheme should be tried on a trial basis for a couple of years? If the dreaded hordes over run the crags and the trail gets churned up by cars and motorbikes, then revert to the status quo, but at least give it a try?
Erik B - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Trangia: I have found the answer, I dont have creaking joints but I do hate walking on tracks. the answer is a trials bike and stay well clear of tracks and houses ;-)
Geoffrey Michaels on 01 Dec 2009 - cnag4.gotadsl.co.uk
In reply to Erik B:

Aye but I have yet to see any jakies up Glen Cannich. Agree with you, there are proposals for two pump-storage hydro schemes at Loch Ness by SSE. Only at proposal stage though.

When the big hydro scheme were developed upgrading the roads was major part of the works. As far as I know, the agreement re Strathfarrar was made on the understanding the then owners would not object to the hydro schemes.
Erik B - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Donald M: dont be fooled, radges are a scurge, speak to any estate factor or park ranger. the radges are spreading their sphere of influence
Geoffrey Michaels on 01 Dec 2009 - cnag4.gotadsl.co.uk
In reply to Erik B:

I my mind radges and jakies are not the same. I see jakies as having less roaming capability and less destructive.
Tom Last - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Donald M:

For your southern cousins trying to follow this thread, please explain jackies and radges! Cheers :-)
Erik B - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Queequeg: jakies are people like me, radges are nasty destructive individuals prone to violence and vandalism
IainRUK - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Trangia: Hard one, I think their are situations when access could be improved, for example through to some of the lodges, on tarmacced or surfaced roads. It just takes away that 10-15 k mundane walk in.

But then looking at the other side of the coin, I enjoyed a cracking few days in Ben Alder region, saw very few because it's so innaccessible and a allowing car access up the loch would undoutably threaten that solitude.


Tough one, pro's and con's and I could probably change my mind each time I think about it.
ShinyDiscoBalls on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to lummox:

Could you imagine the size the small car park at the foot of the north face (Ben Nevis) would need to be if we could all drive straight up there!

As nice as it sounds is it really a good idea?

SDB
IainRUK - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to ShinyDiscoBalls: Is that what they mean? I think they mean the longer access roads which are currently walked after the locked gates.
Tom Last - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Erik B:

OK cheers Erik.

I wonder how this would all impact on safety and numbers of accidents in these areas? Obviously accidents would go up proportionately as usage of the areas in question increased.
However, areas that previously would have required a general level of fitness and self reliance to access could potentially become traps for the unprepared. Just look at Crib Goch, surely a correlation between the number of accidents and the closeness of the car park at Pen-Y-Pass?

I think it's rather forcing the issue to let everyone drive up, more in favour of Donalds approach of education and encouragement.

Andy Nisbet: Is the carpark further up the path from the Ben Nevis north face car park for instructors and such like? Perhaps provision could be made for this sort of arrangement in other areas, ie if you want to use the track, you apply for a key thereby keeping folk who are just there to 'off road' etc off of the hill?
In reply to IainRUK:
At one time you could drive a car to Loch Pattack - risky business as the estate ponies were inclined to chew your bumpers.
Andy Nisbet - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Donald M:

The anti-guides part of this thread is a red herring. The motivation for guides is the same as for individuals, just whether the day will be improved. And I can see that easier access allows more folk to visit and spoils it for those who want to be alone. I guided someone once on Beinn Dearg in 1995, and most guides will visit similarly rarely. In fact the person who raised the Beinn Dearg issue with the MC of S lives on the estate and has his own key. So the issue is purely to let more folk enjoy the advantage he has.
The issue for keen winter climbers is slightly different. The longer the walk-in, the more tired you'll be and the less chance of doing another route the next day. Whereas the person who wants to go to a remote place will maybe stay there several days and the long walk-in matters less.
Andy Nisbet - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Queequeg:
> Andy Nisbet: Is the carpark further up the path from the Ben Nevis north face car park for instructors and such like? Perhaps provision could be made for this sort of arrangement in other areas, ie if you want to use the track, you apply for a key thereby keeping folk who are just there to 'off road' etc off of the hill?

The Ben Nevis car park is for anyone who pays 200 a year (or a season?). Not sure if the amount is correct, because only someone who goes up the Ben often will pay. That is, local instuctors/guides and bigger organisations. And yes, I dislike that system as much as some here do for Beinn Dearg. If it was (say) 5 a day (10 a car), then I would use it. But so would many, so the parking space is too small. I think a payment system is a possibility for Galloway but not Beinn Dearg.

In reply to lummox:
I wonder if there's anybody old enough to remember what the walk to the Northern Corries was like before the ski road was built. The nearest I've got to this experience were the occasions when the road was blocked by snow - I once walked from Loch Morlich to Coire nan Lochan, did a route and walked back. It was an 18 hour day - but I was young then!!
Erik B - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Andy Nisbet: I think a system based around phoning for access to roads and tracks is a good one, means forestry commission and estates etc can still manage the access for bone fide reasons. But this would require said land owners to be more open to the idea of allowing access to their roads. Obviously if it was my land I would only allow winter climbers on my roads and I wouldnt allow any new route competitors on the roads either.
Tom Last - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to lummox:


Fair enough, that does sound pretty prohibitive.

"If it was (say) 5 a day (10 a car), then I would use it. But so would many, so the parking space is too small."

Fairly indicative of attitudes to traffic as a whole really, we all gotta use it, but none of us like it en masse!

Tricky one.
Andy Nisbet - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Erik B:

It's only the Forestry Commision who would consider it at present, because they have a remit for public activities. Having said that, the estate allows you to drive up their road from Oykell Bridge towards Seana Bhraigh
lummox - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to The Watch of Barrisdale: We had a similar experience back in about 93/94- just did a route in Schneachtda (sp) and then walked out again and it was tiring !
In reply to lummox:
It was even worse in the bad old days when the pubs closed at 10 and you knew you hadn't a hope of making it back in time!
ads.ukclimbing.com
Erik B - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Queequeg: build a bigger car park,improve the road put passing places in and have a coin operated barrier, 10 a pop x 100 cars = 1000 a day. thats a bloody good business plan!
Tom Last - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Erik B:

At that, you could even afford a few backhanders for the naysayers!
Geoffrey Michaels on 01 Dec 2009 - cnag4.gotadsl.co.uk
In reply to The Watch of Barrisdale:

Well put and it always makes me laugh to hear climbers droning on about destruction of the mountain with ski tows. You don't hear a single one though advocating the removal of Coire Cas carpark which is the biggest "scar" on CairnGorm. I wonder why that is ;-)
MG - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Donald M:
> (In reply to The Watch of Barrisdale)
>
> Well put and it always makes me laugh to hear climbers droning on about destruction of the mountain with ski tows. You don't hear a single one though advocating the removal of Coire Cas carpark which is the biggest "scar" on CairnGorm. I wonder why that is ;-)

Would anyone bother climbing there much if you had to walk from Loch Morlich? I wouldn't object to the car-park going but am happy to use it while it is there.

Geoffrey Michaels on 01 Dec 2009 - cnag4.gotadsl.co.uk
In reply to MG:

No and I don't want the car park to go but the point I am making is that words to the effect of the destruction caused by skiing are irrelevant if those speaking those words are keen to retain the biggest scar of all, the carpark. Hypocritical.
MG - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Donald M:
> (In reply to MG)
>
Hypocritical.

Yes, a bit. But it is reasonable to use existing infrastructure while not wanting any more.
Geoffrey Michaels on 01 Dec 2009 - cnag4.gotadsl.co.uk
In reply to MG:

In fact I would go as far to say the existance of the Coire Cas car park has benefitted generations of hill goers, massively boosted the economy and meant that many hundreds of thousands of people have been able to become climbers and hill walkers.

I don't want another one but I am glad it's there.
DR - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to lummox:
Mmm, it's a tough one. I can see both sides of the argument (yours and Andy N's) and while I wouldn't want to see it happen on all forest tracks across the Highlands, I think there is scope for roads like Beinn Dearg to be given a try.

Evidence against - the amount of crap along the Loch Arkaig road at every available camping spot really despoils the feel of the glen. In contrast, Glen Strathfarrer, with managed access, is pretty much pristine and all the more beautiful for it. The people who walk and cycle in to camp aren't the type to leave rubbish behind and the drivers obey the rules and come in and out in a day. Same goes for those staying at Strawberry Cottage in Glen Affric - one or two cars don't spoil the splendour of the glen (especially as there are always a few FC and estate vehicles around anyway). But I would guarantee that if the forest road was opened to the public, the place would be trashed. So some places do need managing and protecting.

Evidence for - like Andy said, it takes out the drag and boring bit of the day, lengthens time for climbing and will keep you fresher for more days on the hill. That might sound selfish but who hasn't wished they could park at the top Ben Nevis car park if they could. Me for one! Any cars parked up there would be screened by the trees so little or no landscape impact. I've always wanted to climb Emerald and Penguin Gullies too so if there's any chance of making a long trip from the South Lakes a bit easier then bring it on. Lock the gate with a combination lock and get people to contact the MCofS for it - then review after winter.

For other routes, improve for mountain bikes - wider and shallower drainage ditchs and easier gradients if possible.

Laters,
Davie

MG - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Donald M: Agreed. I wonder if Garbh Corrie etc would be like the Northern Corries in the proposed ski development there had ever been built.
Geoffrey Michaels on 01 Dec 2009 - cnag4.gotadsl.co.uk
In reply to MG:

Which development is that? I'd never heard of one in there. An Garbh Choire I mean.
Gav M - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Andy Nisbet:

>
> Having said that, the estate allows you to drive up their road from Oykell Bridge towards Seana Bhraigh

It's surprisingly generous of them. Last time I was up there a gamekeeper swung by in a landrover and asked us if we were poachers, he said they'd had some bother the previous weekend.

Quite unsettling when I thought about it later. He probably had a shooter on his lap in the cab and I wouldn't be surprised if his backup had their sights trained on us.

MattDTC on 01 Dec 2009

Make your opinion known where it counts;

http://www.mcofs.org.uk/news.asp?s=2&id=MCS-N10384&nc=Pitch-in
MG - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Donald M: I understood the track that almost goes to the top of Beinn a Bhuird was a part of planned ski centre that never went ahead. I think was quite a while ago and never had a chance of planning permission but the estate was trying things on. It is now NTS land and they have put a lot of effort in to making the track a path again. This included laying boulders lichen side up towards the top!
Geoffrey Michaels on 01 Dec 2009 - cnag4.gotadsl.co.uk
In reply to MG:

We are talking about two different Coires but I think the info you have there is wrong. That track, as far as I know, was built by the estate for stalking and shooting puposes.

History of skiing developments that didn't go ahead here: http://www.highland-instinct.co.uk/skiresorts/history/index.php
MG - on 01 Dec 2009
In reply to Donald M: The restoration part is correct

http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/access/bhuird_track.html


Not certain about the ski part but there is something about it here (search for "ski" in the pages. Apparently from the 1960s

http://www.sub3000.com/Section8/MonadhRuadh.html
http://www.nemt.org.uk/views/46/46_4.htm
Geoffrey Michaels on 01 Dec 2009 - cnag4.gotadsl.co.uk
In reply to MG:

Got you, I was thinking of that under a different name. Check out Highland Instinct for more info on that and pictures.
dumblonde on 03 Dec 2009 - host86-179-122-22.range86-179.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Erik B:
>
> While I am at it, lets encourage more hydro development instead of bloody wind farms! I tell you, wind farms are a money spinner, any young folk wondering what industry to go into, I would say avoid IT (which is dead and buried) and get into wind turbine installaton! Hydro can be done without ruining wilderness, the only one I have voted against was the one near baosbheinn as it was poorly thought out, much better places than that.
>
> lets get independence and sell green electricity to the flat plains of albion
>
> rant over

how about the kilometres long new, really obvious and ugly 2.5m wide tracks going into the wild areas - dont they count as having an impact irrespective of if they go to a windfarm or hydro - been anywhere near Glen Doe hydro scheme lately, jees!
Michael Ryan - on 03 Dec 2009
In reply to lummox:

Comments too:

Comments should be sent to hebe(at)mcofs.org.uk by 15 December - please specify whether you are a Scotland resident and/or a member of MCofS.

Vehicle Tracks in Scotland - Have Your Say

http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=2311
Seocan - on 04 Dec 2009
Please no vehicular access, have you seen the sides of Loch Tay, Glen Clunie, Loch Lomond etc etc. The great British public has no respect. Bonfires everywhere, litter, booze, confine them to loch Lomond side and preserve the rest.
If I would ever plead, I would plead for this.
Pete Main - on 04 Dec 2009
To all: There is nothing worst than walking miles along a road that would have taken your car. Lets not forget there are plenty already no need to add more but it is frustrating!
ads.ukclimbing.com
fishy1 - on 04 Dec 2009
In reply to Erik B: I think more wind than hydro, although both have their place, hydro destroys so many lovely glens. e.g Loch ericht, and that shit loch (trieg?) over by fort william that has 30ft height varietations and a deathtrap bank.

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.