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After an epic walk in to Garbh Choire this April I bought a Garmin Oregon 300 GPS with a 1:50,000 OS map for the whole of Scotland uploaded for about £300. Battery life is >6 h. Saturday we did Mitre ridge and walked off as it got dark in poor visibility. The GPS showed our exact position and also potentially dangerous cliffs (i.e. the screen shows the position on a proper OS map). The walk out was fast and seemed safe. We had plenty of batteries and map and compass as back up.
Is it time to recommend a new generation GPS with map and compass as back up as the best way to navigate off the hill especially after a winter climb? Of course the use of a map and compass should be trained and not everyone wants to buy or can afford a GPS.
Is it time to recommend a new generation GPS with map and compass as back up as the best way to navigate off the hill especially after a winter climb? Of course the use of a map and compass should be trained and not everyone wants to buy or can afford a GPS.
In reply to hwackerhage:
for a walker/climber and if you carry a paper map (and you should) you only need the cheapest GSP you can find.
its not the tool its how you use it.
for a walker/climber and if you carry a paper map (and you should) you only need the cheapest GSP you can find.
its not the tool its how you use it.
In reply to hwackerhage: yes. surely if it is good enough for the military to use then it is good for a bunch of hillwalkers.
i think recommending not using a gps is like how we had to do maths without a calculator at school (my generation anyway) i challenge the average user of a map and compass to navigating in a whiteout with as much safety and accuracy as with a gps.
obviously spare batteries, and a map and compass as backup for when the satellites are turned off makes sense, but the only rational for using a map and cmopass over gps is because you enjoy using the skill. don't think there is any safety or practicality argument.
i think recommending not using a gps is like how we had to do maths without a calculator at school (my generation anyway) i challenge the average user of a map and compass to navigating in a whiteout with as much safety and accuracy as with a gps.
obviously spare batteries, and a map and compass as backup for when the satellites are turned off makes sense, but the only rational for using a map and cmopass over gps is because you enjoy using the skill. don't think there is any safety or practicality argument.
In reply to seaofdreams:
you are missing the point a bit though, why use the map unless the GPS fails if the GPS has a map and compass and a route mapped out inside it already
you are missing the point a bit though, why use the map unless the GPS fails if the GPS has a map and compass and a route mapped out inside it already
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Not really missing the point at all.
you can have the best of both worlds by using both. no problems with batteries no problems with programmed route error no programs in the cloud and the weight of a map and compass can be less than 100 g.
also a 3 cm x 3 cm map isnt the greatest for seeing the terrain around you
Not really missing the point at all.
you can have the best of both worlds by using both. no problems with batteries no problems with programmed route error no programs in the cloud and the weight of a map and compass can be less than 100 g.
also a 3 cm x 3 cm map isnt the greatest for seeing the terrain around you
In reply to hwackerhage:
Well, I trained old-skool (GPS is only a luxury, keep your map and compass skills sharp.)
Then in the last couple of years I did some ski touring, some self-taught in a white-out on the Moine Mhor, some on courses. And I learned that ski-tourers consider it impossible to do any significant distance in white-out conditions without a GPS and will place a trail of "breadcrumbs" through crevasse fields that they anticipate needing to travel back through. ie. a completely different philosophy.
So, although I'm sticking to old-skool for my non-ski mountaineering (because I need to use every day out to try to keep my skills sharp) I certainly changed my attitude to GPS. It's a tool in the box. Keep it prepped.
BTW, I wouldn't follow military analogies too far. They're trying to do a very different thing from mountaineers: pushing a totally different set of limits, for the most part.
Y
Well, I trained old-skool (GPS is only a luxury, keep your map and compass skills sharp.)
Then in the last couple of years I did some ski touring, some self-taught in a white-out on the Moine Mhor, some on courses. And I learned that ski-tourers consider it impossible to do any significant distance in white-out conditions without a GPS and will place a trail of "breadcrumbs" through crevasse fields that they anticipate needing to travel back through. ie. a completely different philosophy.
So, although I'm sticking to old-skool for my non-ski mountaineering (because I need to use every day out to try to keep my skills sharp) I certainly changed my attitude to GPS. It's a tool in the box. Keep it prepped.
BTW, I wouldn't follow military analogies too far. They're trying to do a very different thing from mountaineers: pushing a totally different set of limits, for the most part.
Y
In reply to seaofdreams:
I was to some extent playing devils advocate but I think the point henning made was:
You could refer to the paper map from time to time. But if you have a route in the GPS there would rarely be the need. You can zoom in and out on modern GPS. You rarely need a larger map to see more than the GPS displays reasonably for thr terrain around you as if you have a route preprogrammed in the GPS with a map loaded in to memory - you don't need to see features on the hill to see if you are going on or off course.
Its a bit like saying that under normal conditions you'd still use a road atlas when you have a top of the range sat nav and only use that for GPS positions. Yes a paper map would be usefull from time to time, but for most journeys it would redundant.
I have a GPS with the whole of britain on it 1:50000 but I must admit I tend not to take it out unless I think I'll need it as it was very pricey and I don't want to loose or break it. Also I tend to only use it when I need to, as firstly my navigation is probably only a bit above average and I enjoy the practice and secondly I don't want to run the batteries down incase they are needed in anger.
I was to some extent playing devils advocate but I think the point henning made was:
You could refer to the paper map from time to time. But if you have a route in the GPS there would rarely be the need. You can zoom in and out on modern GPS. You rarely need a larger map to see more than the GPS displays reasonably for thr terrain around you as if you have a route preprogrammed in the GPS with a map loaded in to memory - you don't need to see features on the hill to see if you are going on or off course.
Its a bit like saying that under normal conditions you'd still use a road atlas when you have a top of the range sat nav and only use that for GPS positions. Yes a paper map would be usefull from time to time, but for most journeys it would redundant.
I have a GPS with the whole of britain on it 1:50000 but I must admit I tend not to take it out unless I think I'll need it as it was very pricey and I don't want to loose or break it. Also I tend to only use it when I need to, as firstly my navigation is probably only a bit above average and I enjoy the practice and secondly I don't want to run the batteries down incase they are needed in anger.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
What do you do with your GPS if you don't tend to take it out?? Whats the point??
What do you do with your GPS if you don't tend to take it out?? Whats the point??
In reply to ab tat:
there is something quite typical about that as a UKC reply. Where did I actually say I don't take it out? I said quite the opposite.
there is something quite typical about that as a UKC reply. Where did I actually say I don't take it out? I said quite the opposite.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Quote:
'there is something quite typical about that as a UKC reply'
As was your reply to the chap posting about conditions re. the Lairig Ghru.
Ab
Quote:
'there is something quite typical about that as a UKC reply'
As was your reply to the chap posting about conditions re. the Lairig Ghru.
Ab
In reply to Tobias at Home:
'i think recommending not using a gps is like how we had to do maths without a calculator at school (my generation anyway) i challenge the average user of a map and compass to navigating in a whiteout with as much safety and accuracy as with a gps.'
Not sure I would agree there by giving kids calculators to use instead of their heads would mean that they loose the ability to add up with their brains? Similar with the GPS although I think they have their place and can be a very useful tool on the hill however they are an example of how we become ever more reliant on gizmo's to do things for us ! Using a map and compass is a good skill to have nothing can go wrong with a map unlike a piece of electronic kit it's the sort of skill that to do well and with accuracy takes some time and experience and I cant help feel that by heading straight for the gizmo's people are taking a short cut from learning essential stuff ! Similar to the sat nav a £2.99 road atlas will tell you just as well where you need to go than a £200 pound gizmo!
If you use a map and compass well you will be just as accurate as a GPS !
That said I think they have their place but just not replacing the ability to use a map and compass !
Aye Dan
'i think recommending not using a gps is like how we had to do maths without a calculator at school (my generation anyway) i challenge the average user of a map and compass to navigating in a whiteout with as much safety and accuracy as with a gps.'
Not sure I would agree there by giving kids calculators to use instead of their heads would mean that they loose the ability to add up with their brains? Similar with the GPS although I think they have their place and can be a very useful tool on the hill however they are an example of how we become ever more reliant on gizmo's to do things for us ! Using a map and compass is a good skill to have nothing can go wrong with a map unlike a piece of electronic kit it's the sort of skill that to do well and with accuracy takes some time and experience and I cant help feel that by heading straight for the gizmo's people are taking a short cut from learning essential stuff ! Similar to the sat nav a £2.99 road atlas will tell you just as well where you need to go than a £200 pound gizmo!
If you use a map and compass well you will be just as accurate as a GPS !
That said I think they have their place but just not replacing the ability to use a map and compass !
Aye Dan
In reply to hwackerhage:
I've been in a couple of places where if I had purely relyed on my GPS I would have been in big trouble.
The signal bouncing of cliffs etc threw my position 120m when I was descending of the Aiguille du Plan a few years ago. Also when trying to find Crag X up deeside, signal at the crag was out by a long shot compared to the map I had.
Map and compass for sure, with the GPS as a back-up.
I've been in a couple of places where if I had purely relyed on my GPS I would have been in big trouble.
The signal bouncing of cliffs etc threw my position 120m when I was descending of the Aiguille du Plan a few years ago. Also when trying to find Crag X up deeside, signal at the crag was out by a long shot compared to the map I had.
Map and compass for sure, with the GPS as a back-up.
In reply to Dan Goodwin - Mountain Plan:
Cheers for the comment and yes, a GPS can break down. But do you remember the tragic death of two Aberdonian climbers 20 min away from the Coire Cas car park in 2006 (I think)? Would a GPS have saved their lives? I think there is a good chance that it would have.
I think that a point has come where GPSs with OS survey maps are safer for the average hillwalker/climber than map and compass. In other words, if you would have 1000 folk with a GPS (and map and compass as back up) and 1000 folk with map and compass alone doing similar climbs/walks then the accident rate would be less in the GPS with map backup group.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy navigation with map and compass but I feel that the new GPSs work very well and would prevent accidents.
Cheers for the comment and yes, a GPS can break down. But do you remember the tragic death of two Aberdonian climbers 20 min away from the Coire Cas car park in 2006 (I think)? Would a GPS have saved their lives? I think there is a good chance that it would have.
I think that a point has come where GPSs with OS survey maps are safer for the average hillwalker/climber than map and compass. In other words, if you would have 1000 folk with a GPS (and map and compass as back up) and 1000 folk with map and compass alone doing similar climbs/walks then the accident rate would be less in the GPS with map backup group.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy navigation with map and compass but I feel that the new GPSs work very well and would prevent accidents.
In reply to Smelly Fox:
Hi Tris, I don't know about your GPS and obviously if they are that much out then there is no discussion. However, I am really impressed with the new GPS with Ordnance survey maps.
Hi Tris, I don't know about your GPS and obviously if they are that much out then there is no discussion. However, I am really impressed with the new GPS with Ordnance survey maps.
In reply to hwackerhage:
It's been hinted that the OS will freeing up their data next year, hopefully this means that we will soon be able to load up accurate contour maps to GPS enabled smartphones.
My phone GPS gives excellent lat / long accuracy but can be miles off (well tens of metres anyway) on altitude - don't know if it's the quality of the chip or the number of sats they use - can anyone shed any light?
It's been hinted that the OS will freeing up their data next year, hopefully this means that we will soon be able to load up accurate contour maps to GPS enabled smartphones.
My phone GPS gives excellent lat / long accuracy but can be miles off (well tens of metres anyway) on altitude - don't know if it's the quality of the chip or the number of sats they use - can anyone shed any light?
In reply to hwackerhage:
Hi Henning!
I don't think it matters which unit you have, when you are near cliffs or in forest the accuracy will be affected. It's only happend a few times when I've used the GPS in anger, but still people should be aware of any limitations.
My primary navigation piece would not be the GPS, but I agree to there uses occasionally for sure. Topping out onto the plateau after a climb, for example. But all you need from the thing are the numbers. Then its back to the map, compass and or altimeter.
Hi Henning!
I don't think it matters which unit you have, when you are near cliffs or in forest the accuracy will be affected. It's only happend a few times when I've used the GPS in anger, but still people should be aware of any limitations.
My primary navigation piece would not be the GPS, but I agree to there uses occasionally for sure. Topping out onto the plateau after a climb, for example. But all you need from the thing are the numbers. Then its back to the map, compass and or altimeter.
In reply to hwackerhage:
Not sure how you draw the association here. The press reported they were 20mins from safety but in the dark, in waist deep drifts, in a whiteout with 150mph winds we all know it would take considerably longer than 20mins. They knew where they wanted to get to and had been heading in the right direction so unfortunately I don't think a GPS would have made the slightest bit of difference in this particular case. Exhaustion and hypothermia rather than navigation issues.
Iain
> But do you remember the tragic death of two Aberdonian climbers 20 min away from the Coire Cas car park in 2006 (I think)? Would a GPS have saved their lives? I think there is a good chance that it would have.
Not sure how you draw the association here. The press reported they were 20mins from safety but in the dark, in waist deep drifts, in a whiteout with 150mph winds we all know it would take considerably longer than 20mins. They knew where they wanted to get to and had been heading in the right direction so unfortunately I don't think a GPS would have made the slightest bit of difference in this particular case. Exhaustion and hypothermia rather than navigation issues.
Iain
In reply to IainMunro:
Iain, I may well be wrong and realise that the conditions were very bad so this was probably not the right example. But having a navigation aid that allows you to know exactly where you are under all condition can in my opinion prevent accidents and possibly save lives.
We were caught in this last year:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=111908
and because of that I bought one of the new generation GPSs. I am impressed with it and think that it can make things safer. Thus the debate.
Iain, I may well be wrong and realise that the conditions were very bad so this was probably not the right example. But having a navigation aid that allows you to know exactly where you are under all condition can in my opinion prevent accidents and possibly save lives.
We were caught in this last year:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=111908
and because of that I bought one of the new generation GPSs. I am impressed with it and think that it can make things safer. Thus the debate.
In reply to hwackerhage: I would 100% agree with you. At work we have invested in the Airo A25. A PDA with military accurate GPS and memory map built in. The accuracy is incredible. I trialled this while out with an ML training group a couple of months ago, and the unit could easily find micronav points at ML level. Since then I have tried it all around the country in various crap conditions and the accuracy is perfect everytime. Carrying plenty of batteries, and with the backup of a map and compass incase I think next generation GPS sets are the way forward. Obviously carrying a map and compass and knowledge of how to use it is always essential, as no one can predict something like dropping the unit off a ridge. However with Units the Garmin Oregon, Satmap active 10 and various rugged PDA units with GPS and memory map coming into the market, I think we are more and more moving towards becoming more reliant on GPS handsets for navigation. As someone has already pointed out, if its good enough for the military and what they do, its good enough for us.
However, I believe that a sound knowledge of navigation should be a pre-requisit for using a GPS set. My reasoning for this is that there may come a point where for some reason technology may fail you (batteries, environment, cracked screen etc), and an absence of map and compass and the knowledge to use them could well lead to a serious problem. For example I teach a lot of DofE students, and I would never allow them to use a GPS handset alone, firstly because it ruins the spirit of DofE to some extent, and secondly because if I gave them a GPS they would not be relying on the map skills that I believe are so important.
I think the OP makes a good point that not everyone can afford/use a GPS, however I think they will become increasingly prevailant in the outdoors as time goes on, especially with GPS now becoming increasingly available on phones, however it should be noted that the accuracy on the majority of phones is not sufficiently accurate to navigate safely in poor conditions, and it is this that I see becoming a problem with novice hill walkings thinking (wrongly) that a GPS is a magical device that will keep them safe. "Pathfinder" software featuring vector mapping and OS mapping is now becoming available on mobiles, I hope that people using this are made aware that GPS on phones can often drop to an accuracy of 10m+ which in poor weather could be the difference between safety and a steep drop!
However, I believe that a sound knowledge of navigation should be a pre-requisit for using a GPS set. My reasoning for this is that there may come a point where for some reason technology may fail you (batteries, environment, cracked screen etc), and an absence of map and compass and the knowledge to use them could well lead to a serious problem. For example I teach a lot of DofE students, and I would never allow them to use a GPS handset alone, firstly because it ruins the spirit of DofE to some extent, and secondly because if I gave them a GPS they would not be relying on the map skills that I believe are so important.
I think the OP makes a good point that not everyone can afford/use a GPS, however I think they will become increasingly prevailant in the outdoors as time goes on, especially with GPS now becoming increasingly available on phones, however it should be noted that the accuracy on the majority of phones is not sufficiently accurate to navigate safely in poor conditions, and it is this that I see becoming a problem with novice hill walkings thinking (wrongly) that a GPS is a magical device that will keep them safe. "Pathfinder" software featuring vector mapping and OS mapping is now becoming available on mobiles, I hope that people using this are made aware that GPS on phones can often drop to an accuracy of 10m+ which in poor weather could be the difference between safety and a steep drop!
In reply to hwackerhage:
Yeah I know and I fully understand (and agree with) your point, I was just saying there are better examples to illustrate it though. I now carry a GPS to compliment my map and compass for times when I want to double check my location or identify my height etc. For an experienced navigator with the right gadgets I guess you can get away with relying on a GPS but I should imagine someone less experienced with a basic GPS could easily get themselves into trouble if they are not aware of the limitations and possible errors that could crop up on a more basic tool.
It's an inspiring photo and I have spent many a minute this summer looking at it and thinking about the winter!
I similarly got a GPS (albeit the most basic available) after spending several hours in the dark, in a whiteout a little bit cold a disorientated after doing a route in Coire Loch an Eun a couple of years ago! It sits at the bottom of my rucksack along with my bothy bag and spare head torch, rarely used but I wouldn't want to head out without any of them!
Iain
> Iain, I may well be wrong and realise that the conditions were very bad so this was probably not the right example. But having a navigation aid that allows you to know exactly where you are under all condition can in my opinion prevent accidents and possibly save lives.
Yeah I know and I fully understand (and agree with) your point, I was just saying there are better examples to illustrate it though. I now carry a GPS to compliment my map and compass for times when I want to double check my location or identify my height etc. For an experienced navigator with the right gadgets I guess you can get away with relying on a GPS but I should imagine someone less experienced with a basic GPS could easily get themselves into trouble if they are not aware of the limitations and possible errors that could crop up on a more basic tool.
It's an inspiring photo and I have spent many a minute this summer looking at it and thinking about the winter!
> and because of that I bought one of the new generation GPSs. I am impressed with it and think that it can make things safer. Thus the debate.
I similarly got a GPS (albeit the most basic available) after spending several hours in the dark, in a whiteout a little bit cold a disorientated after doing a route in Coire Loch an Eun a couple of years ago! It sits at the bottom of my rucksack along with my bothy bag and spare head torch, rarely used but I wouldn't want to head out without any of them!
Iain
In reply to Dan: interesting comment about gizmos, its not that long ago in relative terms that the plastic compass and OS map where seen as gizmos remember, the lowly compass has flaws eg cuillins. Also more chance of human error. Use technology I say.
In reply to hwackerhage:
It all started going downhill with the introduction of writing. Then maps with contours on.
Back in the day you learned the routes by talking to those who had been before, and then you went exploring. Going without map, compass, or guidebook meant that we had to hone our terrain memory, and learn to navigate by using all our senses.
I blame the Romans. If it wasn't for them we would still have an oral culture, and we would still be guided by bards.
GPS is just the latest in a long line of dumbing down.
It all started going downhill with the introduction of writing. Then maps with contours on.
Back in the day you learned the routes by talking to those who had been before, and then you went exploring. Going without map, compass, or guidebook meant that we had to hone our terrain memory, and learn to navigate by using all our senses.
I blame the Romans. If it wasn't for them we would still have an oral culture, and we would still be guided by bards.
GPS is just the latest in a long line of dumbing down.
In reply to almost sane:
"I blame the Romans."
Yeah! Like what have they ever done for us....
p
oil get moi coat!
"I blame the Romans."
Yeah! Like what have they ever done for us....
p
oil get moi coat!
In reply to almost sane:
On the Weakest Link there was someone who failed to divide 26 (or 34) by 2, calculators have a lot to answer for. GPS however has made navigation in poor conditions very much more safer but they are not immune to failure like most devices we create. Probably still safer to use GPS and have maps and compass as backup than not to use one. Haven't got one yet but will when I can afford a decent one.
> GPS is just the latest in a long line of dumbing down.
On the Weakest Link there was someone who failed to divide 26 (or 34) by 2, calculators have a lot to answer for. GPS however has made navigation in poor conditions very much more safer but they are not immune to failure like most devices we create. Probably still safer to use GPS and have maps and compass as backup than not to use one. Haven't got one yet but will when I can afford a decent one.
In reply to cringeworthy: you forget the simple rule that the majority of people are thick
In reply to hwackerhage:
I really hate the idea of carrying a GPS. Aesthetically, I find them abhorrent because they cross the well defined line from being self reliant in the hills to relying on a man made infrastructure (a network of satellites) which is not carried in my rucksack; they are not just a part of the gradual dumbing down of the outdoor experience but a quantum leap downwards. I (partly) go to the mountains to get away from all the nasty little insidious digital gadgets which increasingly cut us off from reality. It is with considerable misgivings that I sometimes now carry a mobile. And if I ever buy a car with a satnav installed, I shall take great pleasure in destroying it with an ice axe. Quite frankly I would rather get lost occasionally than drive mindlessly around without knowing where I actually am. Rant over.
I really hate the idea of carrying a GPS. Aesthetically, I find them abhorrent because they cross the well defined line from being self reliant in the hills to relying on a man made infrastructure (a network of satellites) which is not carried in my rucksack; they are not just a part of the gradual dumbing down of the outdoor experience but a quantum leap downwards. I (partly) go to the mountains to get away from all the nasty little insidious digital gadgets which increasingly cut us off from reality. It is with considerable misgivings that I sometimes now carry a mobile. And if I ever buy a car with a satnav installed, I shall take great pleasure in destroying it with an ice axe. Quite frankly I would rather get lost occasionally than drive mindlessly around without knowing where I actually am. Rant over.
In reply to ab tat:
Actually if you read the whole sentance it says
"but I must admit I tend not to take it out unless I think I'll need it as it"
as you can easily see that doesn't say I don't take my GPS out, it says I only do when I think I'll need it. For example winter walking in poor visibility in areas that are hard to navigate because of either infimarity or complex terrain.
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)
>
> See your post above:
>
> Quote:
>
> 'but I must admit I tend not to take it out'
>
> See your post above:
>
> Quote:
>
> 'but I must admit I tend not to take it out'
Actually if you read the whole sentance it says
"but I must admit I tend not to take it out unless I think I'll need it as it"
as you can easily see that doesn't say I don't take my GPS out, it says I only do when I think I'll need it. For example winter walking in poor visibility in areas that are hard to navigate because of either infimarity or complex terrain.
In reply to Robert Durran: if my mate didnt have a mobile phone and didnt know that there is a signal at the top of sgurr na clach geala his friend would be dead. technology has its uses
In reply to Robert Durran:
If you did have GPS & mobile switched off at the bottom of the rucksack (along with bivvy bag and an ancient mars bar) it would be a massive advantage if you encountered an emergency (assuming both GPS & phone work).
It does though reduce the self-reliance factor.
If you did have GPS & mobile switched off at the bottom of the rucksack (along with bivvy bag and an ancient mars bar) it would be a massive advantage if you encountered an emergency (assuming both GPS & phone work).
It does though reduce the self-reliance factor.
In reply to hwackerhage: It would depend on why you go outdoors, if you take the adventure out of adventure what is the point. You could have just put the route into your laptop and view where you would have gone, saving yourself from going anywhere.
If your willing to trust your electronics whilst walking anywhere near steep drops, then on you go, but first tell those in your group that 'you' don't actually know where you are and are totally reliant on your GPS.
Granted it should be accurate, but how much do you want to risk everything?
If your willing to trust your electronics whilst walking anywhere near steep drops, then on you go, but first tell those in your group that 'you' don't actually know where you are and are totally reliant on your GPS.
Granted it should be accurate, but how much do you want to risk everything?
In reply to summo: hmm strange argument... you top out of a route into the teeth of a white out blizzard, you get your map out and you have to figure out where you are. I would rather trust a gps than a human who could be close to exhaustion, hungry, scared. But thats just me
In reply to Erik B:
I actually do carry a mobile largely for the very reason that if its lack endangered my climbing partner then I might feel guilty. But I can't ever imagine getting a GPS.
> (In reply to Robert Durran) if my mate didnt have a mobile phone and didnt know that there is a signal at the top of sgurr na clach geala his friend would be dead. technology has its uses
I actually do carry a mobile largely for the very reason that if its lack endangered my climbing partner then I might feel guilty. But I can't ever imagine getting a GPS.
In reply to Robert Durran: ill have to admit I dont either, or even a map and compass! I am a prime candidate for national tabloid sensational front page spread
In reply to md@r:
Even switched off, the aesthetic objection remains. (like soloing with a rope convenoently hanging within reach)
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> If you did have GPS & mobile switched it would be a massive advantage if you encountered an emergency
> If you did have GPS & mobile switched it would be a massive advantage if you encountered an emergency
Even switched off, the aesthetic objection remains. (like soloing with a rope convenoently hanging within reach)
In reply to Erik B:
So how do you navigate!!
> (In reply to Robert Durran) ill have to admit I dont either, or even a map and compass!
So how do you navigate!!
In reply to Erik B:> (In reply to summo) hmm strange argument... you top out of a route into the teeth of a white out blizzard, you get your map out and you have to figure out where you are. I would rather trust a gps than a human who could be close to exhaustion, hungry, scared. But thats just me
NO, When I top out my map is pre folded in my jacket pocket, with my compass, I have also spoken to my climbing partner on the last stance to agree a plan. I don't figure out where I am, I already know where I am. If it's wild we might just not de-kit and walking straight out, with or without rope, until we are out of the wind or lost some height, improved vis etc etc.
Exhaustion - no food lives in pockets for stances too, and more in bag.
Hungry - As above
Scared - Ecstasy or relieve perhaps, scared no. Navigation is a controlled environment. If you are fit healthly and competent YOU hold all the aces. Provided you are clothed correctly you can take your time and get it right, every time. No need to worry about electronics, broken screens or blind faith.
NO, When I top out my map is pre folded in my jacket pocket, with my compass, I have also spoken to my climbing partner on the last stance to agree a plan. I don't figure out where I am, I already know where I am. If it's wild we might just not de-kit and walking straight out, with or without rope, until we are out of the wind or lost some height, improved vis etc etc.
Exhaustion - no food lives in pockets for stances too, and more in bag.
Hungry - As above
Scared - Ecstasy or relieve perhaps, scared no. Navigation is a controlled environment. If you are fit healthly and competent YOU hold all the aces. Provided you are clothed correctly you can take your time and get it right, every time. No need to worry about electronics, broken screens or blind faith.
In reply to Robert Durran: in bad weather? visualise mate, visualise. become at one with nature like the nomadic hunters stalking their prey
In reply to Robert Durran:
As I said, it does reduce the self reliance factor but mobile and/or GPS could be a life saver. It's a personal choice.
As I said, it does reduce the self reliance factor but mobile and/or GPS could be a life saver. It's a personal choice.
In reply to summo: jesus h man, you rock! for me personally there is nought more scarey than being on a remote exposed ridge in the dark in a white out blizzard unable to stand, with cornices looming and windslab waiting.....
In reply to Erik B:
It's more about just being prepared and competant, mountaineers have done it for generations (as you know).
I'm sure you do, but you should know what and where the hazards are. I bet your straight line GPS doesn't know where the windslab might be, or can pick a line that protects them from the worst of the wind.
> (In reply to summo) jesus h man, you rock! for me personally there is nought more scarey than being on a remote exposed ridge in the dark in a white out blizzard unable to stand, with cornices looming and windslab waiting.....
It's more about just being prepared and competant, mountaineers have done it for generations (as you know).
I'm sure you do, but you should know what and where the hazards are. I bet your straight line GPS doesn't know where the windslab might be, or can pick a line that protects them from the worst of the wind.
In reply to Erik B:
Sounds perfect for a luddite like myself. I shall throw away my compass and maps and practice on deer in the Cairngorms this weekend. Lets hope for really crap weather. No gun either - just my bare hands.
> (In reply to Robert Durran) in bad weather? visualise mate, visualise. become at one with nature like the nomadic hunters stalking their prey
Sounds perfect for a luddite like myself. I shall throw away my compass and maps and practice on deer in the Cairngorms this weekend. Lets hope for really crap weather. No gun either - just my bare hands.
In reply to Erik B:
Potentially scary, but doesn't a large part of the essence of mountaineering lie in being in control in situations which appear (at least to the inexperienced) utterly terrifying! A fine line though....
> for me personally there is nought more scarey than being on a remote exposed ridge in the dark in a white out blizzard unable to stand, with cornices looming and windslab waiting.....
Potentially scary, but doesn't a large part of the essence of mountaineering lie in being in control in situations which appear (at least to the inexperienced) utterly terrifying! A fine line though....
In reply to Robert Durran: yes terrifying but strangely enjoyable. To be honest the key to this whole subject is chosing your days and dont go out when its shite or there is any sign of a front coming through. i hope i dont sound like a preacher, but instead of using your map at the top, visualise the map and terrain from the comfort of your centrally heated home, visiualise the lie of the land as your walking in, visiaulise your escape route, visualise the windslab scowling at you, visulaise the wind and what side of you it will be blowing when you get to the top, keep visualising the weather and wind during the day and make necessary changes to your previous visualisation
visualise man, visualise
visualise man, visualise
In reply to Erik B:
I do, I do...... And don't forget to visualise every potential abseil anchor on the way up - they might come in handy later. Being old and wary, I am particularly good at this bit.
> (In reply to Robert Durran) yes terrifying but strangely enjoyable.
> visualise man, visualise
> visualise man, visualise
I do, I do...... And don't forget to visualise every potential abseil anchor on the way up - they might come in handy later. Being old and wary, I am particularly good at this bit.
In reply to Robert Durran: the spirit of the nomad is clearly with you maaaaan.
In reply to Erik B:
I use GPS (non-mapping) but it's switched on and referred to when I need to. I use the map 99% of the time and can back it up with compass though don't practice it as often as I should. In a whiteout on the Strathfarrar hills when I was tired and feeling it was getting a bit dodgy I used the GPS with pre-programmed route from Memory-Map, things went fine. GPS does have it's limitations if you recognise them they are fantastic bits of kit. I once had a map blown out my hands, I've had batteries fail on GPS - both have drawbacks. Although I can, I've never once had to triangulate my position using map and compass. I'll settle for both - though if I were to get one of the newer mapping GPS maybe I'd not need to carry a map. I'd still carry one as backup because a side of me remains old-school I suppose.
I use GPS (non-mapping) but it's switched on and referred to when I need to. I use the map 99% of the time and can back it up with compass though don't practice it as often as I should. In a whiteout on the Strathfarrar hills when I was tired and feeling it was getting a bit dodgy I used the GPS with pre-programmed route from Memory-Map, things went fine. GPS does have it's limitations if you recognise them they are fantastic bits of kit. I once had a map blown out my hands, I've had batteries fail on GPS - both have drawbacks. Although I can, I've never once had to triangulate my position using map and compass. I'll settle for both - though if I were to get one of the newer mapping GPS maybe I'd not need to carry a map. I'd still carry one as backup because a side of me remains old-school I suppose.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Absolutely fine. The aim of the post was not to force anyone to bag Munros like cyberman but to recommend a safer practice than the current one if evidence supports that.
I am against a nanny state in the outdoors but I think that recommendations should be updated when new evidence or technology emerges. That's why you get a beta blocker or pace maker when you have arrythmias instead of a fur-clad GP doing a healing dance in front of you like in the good old days.
Absolutely fine. The aim of the post was not to force anyone to bag Munros like cyberman but to recommend a safer practice than the current one if evidence supports that.
I am against a nanny state in the outdoors but I think that recommendations should be updated when new evidence or technology emerges. That's why you get a beta blocker or pace maker when you have arrythmias instead of a fur-clad GP doing a healing dance in front of you like in the good old days.
In reply to hwackerhage:
Personally I don't like using GPS or SatNav for two reasons.
Firstly, because you loose a sense of where you actually are. You are just following directions and not aware of where you are in relation to your surroundings. Somehow a map gives me a greater sense of my surrounds and where I am.
Secondly, I spend all week being controlled by computers and technology. The last thing I want when I head for the hills is more of the same. I go there to escape that sort of thing.
If GPS is your thing then they should be used as an emergency backup in case shit hits the fan, not the other way around.
Personally I don't like using GPS or SatNav for two reasons.
Firstly, because you loose a sense of where you actually are. You are just following directions and not aware of where you are in relation to your surroundings. Somehow a map gives me a greater sense of my surrounds and where I am.
Secondly, I spend all week being controlled by computers and technology. The last thing I want when I head for the hills is more of the same. I go there to escape that sort of thing.
If GPS is your thing then they should be used as an emergency backup in case shit hits the fan, not the other way around.
In reply to summo:
I must admit to organising my days like this as well. Failure to prepare / prepare to fail and all that...
I do have a basic GPS that is programed with the WPs off the hill should I need it. I'll occasionally switch it on and play about - on Tower ridge while waiting for a slow party on the ET I switched mine on and while waiting for it to fix sats, I had a brew and backbearing'd my position (Even though I knew where we were) and noted the 6 fig GR. The GPs gave me a very close GR as well so they work brilliantly when conditions are good but are limited with battery life/inexperienced users etc
Its handy coming off the ben, I don't bother with a route programed in as such, just the WP's. I'll have the summit, the 'dogleg', each point of the zigzags, then a line across the moors. I'm happy with my map and comp but have the gizmo as a 'just in case'.
I have Memory Map and print 2 copies of that days map off on A4 photopaper and laminate them. I also inclue text boxes on the map page showing WP abbreiviations, bearings etc. I also save the map overlay file once the WP's are done. If I climb in the area again, I'll have the map/WPs already. Its a good system that works for me.
I also have a tomtom and use it purely for the speed camera warnings and the miles to go/arrival time estimates.
I don't rely on my GPSs but put them to use to assist me should I need them. Exactly what they are for then!
I must admit to organising my days like this as well. Failure to prepare / prepare to fail and all that...
I do have a basic GPS that is programed with the WPs off the hill should I need it. I'll occasionally switch it on and play about - on Tower ridge while waiting for a slow party on the ET I switched mine on and while waiting for it to fix sats, I had a brew and backbearing'd my position (Even though I knew where we were) and noted the 6 fig GR. The GPs gave me a very close GR as well so they work brilliantly when conditions are good but are limited with battery life/inexperienced users etc
Its handy coming off the ben, I don't bother with a route programed in as such, just the WP's. I'll have the summit, the 'dogleg', each point of the zigzags, then a line across the moors. I'm happy with my map and comp but have the gizmo as a 'just in case'.
I have Memory Map and print 2 copies of that days map off on A4 photopaper and laminate them. I also inclue text boxes on the map page showing WP abbreiviations, bearings etc. I also save the map overlay file once the WP's are done. If I climb in the area again, I'll have the map/WPs already. Its a good system that works for me.
I also have a tomtom and use it purely for the speed camera warnings and the miles to go/arrival time estimates.
I don't rely on my GPSs but put them to use to assist me should I need them. Exactly what they are for then!
In reply to blanchie14c:
I have an old school variation. I have an a4 or smaller fabloned(spelling?) of the main climbing areas, the full map lives in the bag. The once or twice folded A4 fits easily in a jacket without the bulk. You can go all blue peter and put on different bearings for places, like the various top of routes or gullies on the Ben too.
If teaching you can draw on it, mark locations or nav legs, pacing stuff, stick avalanche snow card data on the back of it, whatever your thing is.
> (In reply to summo)
> Its handy coming off the ben, I don't bother with a route programed in as such, just the WP's. I'll have the summit, the 'dogleg', each point of the zigzags, then a line across the moors. I'm happy with my map and comp but have the gizmo as a 'just in case'. I have Memory Map and print 2 copies of that days map off on A4 photopaper and laminate them. I also inclue text boxes on the map page showing WP abbreiviations, bearings etc. If I climb in the area again, I'll have the map/WPs already. Its a good system that works for me.
> Its handy coming off the ben, I don't bother with a route programed in as such, just the WP's. I'll have the summit, the 'dogleg', each point of the zigzags, then a line across the moors. I'm happy with my map and comp but have the gizmo as a 'just in case'. I have Memory Map and print 2 copies of that days map off on A4 photopaper and laminate them. I also inclue text boxes on the map page showing WP abbreiviations, bearings etc. If I climb in the area again, I'll have the map/WPs already. Its a good system that works for me.
I have an old school variation. I have an a4 or smaller fabloned(spelling?) of the main climbing areas, the full map lives in the bag. The once or twice folded A4 fits easily in a jacket without the bulk. You can go all blue peter and put on different bearings for places, like the various top of routes or gullies on the Ben too.
If teaching you can draw on it, mark locations or nav legs, pacing stuff, stick avalanche snow card data on the back of it, whatever your thing is.
I think they should paint lines on all the footpaths and put up more signs. No more should mountaineering be a hobby only for those able to look after themselves and navigate safely from a map. They should have machines selling cheap cagoules for £1 at the bottom of hills, and coke/chocolate machines up the top - save you carrying the weight.
Remember... Fatties and Numpties like mountains too.
Remember... Fatties and Numpties like mountains too.
In reply to summo:
I've bought a box of 3x6 photo cards and printed the route for the Welsh 3000's and the Cuillin when I did them this year. i make the laminates double sided and punch a hole in one corner of each one. Then reinforce the puched holes with the sticky 'polo's' and use a keyring / split ring to join them all. They hang with a light crab to the gear loop on my sack. every bit of the route close to hand, waterproof yet no bulk at all.
Keep yer mapcases!
As opposed to GPS, I'd say the digital mapping has made the biggest difference to me. I've also taken to photocoping route descriptions / topo's and laminating them into the other side of the map sheet. It saves taking a book but does limit you, best when you know exactly which route you are going to do.
I've bought a box of 3x6 photo cards and printed the route for the Welsh 3000's and the Cuillin when I did them this year. i make the laminates double sided and punch a hole in one corner of each one. Then reinforce the puched holes with the sticky 'polo's' and use a keyring / split ring to join them all. They hang with a light crab to the gear loop on my sack. every bit of the route close to hand, waterproof yet no bulk at all.
Keep yer mapcases!
As opposed to GPS, I'd say the digital mapping has made the biggest difference to me. I've also taken to photocoping route descriptions / topo's and laminating them into the other side of the map sheet. It saves taking a book but does limit you, best when you know exactly which route you are going to do.
In reply to the real dr gav:
As above, anyone know what limits the accuracy of phone GPSs?
> My phone GPS gives excellent lat / long accuracy but can be miles off (well tens of metres anyway) on altitude - don't know if it's the quality of the chip or the number of sats they use - can anyone shed any light?
As above, anyone know what limits the accuracy of phone GPSs?
In reply to summo:
What do you draw on laminates with (if at all?) Are they called 'clay pencils' or something? You know, draw on, wipe off...
What do you draw on laminates with (if at all?) Are they called 'clay pencils' or something? You know, draw on, wipe off...
In reply to the real dr gav:
Can't speak for phones but any gps is going to vary depending how many sats it finds. Mine can show accuracy from -+ 10M to maybe -+40M. The work around I use <well say use, I don't use mine too often but plan this way anyway!> is to have close WP's taking in as many identifiable features on the ground as poss. When planning routes don't just make straight lines either, use normal route planning tricks - handrailing streams etc. It'll narrow down the margin of error, GPS or user.
Can't speak for phones but any gps is going to vary depending how many sats it finds. Mine can show accuracy from -+ 10M to maybe -+40M. The work around I use <well say use, I don't use mine too often but plan this way anyway!> is to have close WP's taking in as many identifiable features on the ground as poss. When planning routes don't just make straight lines either, use normal route planning tricks - handrailing streams etc. It'll narrow down the margin of error, GPS or user.
In reply to blanchie14c:
Permanent markers, fine tip, then use metal polish or similar to clean off.
> (In reply to summo)
> What do you draw on laminates with (if at all?) Are they called 'clay pencils' or something? You know, draw on, wipe off...
> What do you draw on laminates with (if at all?) Are they called 'clay pencils' or something? You know, draw on, wipe off...
Permanent markers, fine tip, then use metal polish or similar to clean off.
In reply to the real dr gav:
When I am mapping at a scale of 1:25000 (ie relevant to this group of people) my system of choice is acurate to (best) +-4 m in XY and 10 m in Z (noraml hill use with DGPS 10 m XY 30 m Z). The diffrence btween loaction and elevation is due to the satalites "location" in the sky.
I assume that your phone GPS is DGPS enabled? therefore i see no reason why if you are using it correcly that you cannot get a reading of +- 10 m ish in XY with the diffrence between my unit and phone being the processor speed and how I use my system compared to the numpties on the hill.
I hasten to point out that this is all irrelvant becasue the accuracy of a normal OS landranger sheet is 150 - 200 m so your error vanishes in the wash.
When I am mapping at a scale of 1:25000 (ie relevant to this group of people) my system of choice is acurate to (best) +-4 m in XY and 10 m in Z (noraml hill use with DGPS 10 m XY 30 m Z). The diffrence btween loaction and elevation is due to the satalites "location" in the sky.
I assume that your phone GPS is DGPS enabled? therefore i see no reason why if you are using it correcly that you cannot get a reading of +- 10 m ish in XY with the diffrence between my unit and phone being the processor speed and how I use my system compared to the numpties on the hill.
I hasten to point out that this is all irrelvant becasue the accuracy of a normal OS landranger sheet is 150 - 200 m so your error vanishes in the wash.
In reply to seaofdreams:
I suspect that the OS and many people on here would like to see proof of that. I reckon a 1:25 probably has maybe a 10m accuracy, sometimes better. If you loose your GPS and get naving for real, you might be surpised just how incredibly well mapped our country is.
> (In reply to the real dr gav)> I hasten to point out that this is all irrelvant becasue the accuracy of a normal OS landranger sheet is 150 - 200 m so your error vanishes in the wash.
I suspect that the OS and many people on here would like to see proof of that. I reckon a 1:25 probably has maybe a 10m accuracy, sometimes better. If you loose your GPS and get naving for real, you might be surpised just how incredibly well mapped our country is.
In reply to summo:
as a geologist i will tell you this:
If i put a 0.5 mm line on a map at 1:50000 scale that line becomes 25000 mm on the ground.....
as a geologist i will tell you this:
If i put a 0.5 mm line on a map at 1:50000 scale that line becomes 25000 mm on the ground.....
In reply to seaofdreams:
Didn't know about DGPS, thanks for telling me about it.
So my phone is actually pretty accurate? I was surprised that it was accurate to 3 M in XY and still out by 30 M in Z.
I'll do a side by side comparison with my etrex and report back.
> (noraml hill use with DGPS 10 m XY 30 m Z).
Didn't know about DGPS, thanks for telling me about it.
So my phone is actually pretty accurate? I was surprised that it was accurate to 3 M in XY and still out by 30 M in Z.
I'll do a side by side comparison with my etrex and report back.
In reply to the real dr gav:
for you me and the next hill user its not which unit you own its how you use it.
Simple rules if you need a really good fix.
Do not move it
put the GPS down and walk away
give it time
for you me and the next hill user its not which unit you own its how you use it.
Simple rules if you need a really good fix.
Do not move it
put the GPS down and walk away
give it time
In reply to seaofdreams: I read your post as saying the OS is only accurate to 200m or so, which or course it isn't - UK mapping is much better than that. I think what you are saying is that you can't make use of that accuracy on a 1:50,000 scale map.
In reply to seaofdreams:
So when I'm stood on the tip of nice pointy spur, i could really be 25m away, so if I did a few legs at night, various lengths to compound an error, how come I don't get lost or miss a feature.
ps. 25000mm or 25m is quite different to the hundred plus you mentioned 1 post ago. Are geologist prone to exaggeration and not accuracy?
> (In reply to summo)> If i put a 0.5 mm line on a map at 1:50000 scale that line becomes 25000 mm on the ground.....
So when I'm stood on the tip of nice pointy spur, i could really be 25m away, so if I did a few legs at night, various lengths to compound an error, how come I don't get lost or miss a feature.
ps. 25000mm or 25m is quite different to the hundred plus you mentioned 1 post ago. Are geologist prone to exaggeration and not accuracy?
In reply to the real dr gav:
It varies a bit, but for a Nokia thingy it is comparable with a handhled GPS, as good as a couple of metres in X,Y when outside (as judged against google maps), and rarely worse than a few 10s of metres even when in a building. Altitude can be out by up to a few 10s of metres, but I've found it to be less than that.
>
> As above, anyone know what limits the accuracy of phone GPSs?
> As above, anyone know what limits the accuracy of phone GPSs?
It varies a bit, but for a Nokia thingy it is comparable with a handhled GPS, as good as a couple of metres in X,Y when outside (as judged against google maps), and rarely worse than a few 10s of metres even when in a building. Altitude can be out by up to a few 10s of metres, but I've found it to be less than that.
In reply to toad:
ahhhh
the mapping data is very very good but the finished product - ie the real printed sheet that you an i see - has roads which are 3 mm or more printed onto them and rivers which are way bigger than in real life...
hence 150 - 200 m (worst) at 1:50000
this is nothing to do with the actual mapping data its about the product
ahhhh
the mapping data is very very good but the finished product - ie the real printed sheet that you an i see - has roads which are 3 mm or more printed onto them and rivers which are way bigger than in real life...
hence 150 - 200 m (worst) at 1:50000
this is nothing to do with the actual mapping data its about the product
In reply to seaofdreams:
Clearly a footpath has to be big enough to be seem on the map, a trig point is not really tens of metres wide on ground, but if you take yourself as being in the middle of the feature, which you should, you are never ever 150m out!
It's a bit like changing the markings of a stream or river on the map due to its width on the ground. At some point in the process it's a human decision.
> (In reply to toad)> the mapping data is very very good but the finished product - ie the real printed sheet that you an i see - has roads which are 3 mm or more printed onto them and rivers which are way bigger than in real life...
> hence 150 - 200 m (worst) at 1:50000
> this is nothing to do with the actual mapping data its about the product
> hence 150 - 200 m (worst) at 1:50000
> this is nothing to do with the actual mapping data its about the product
Clearly a footpath has to be big enough to be seem on the map, a trig point is not really tens of metres wide on ground, but if you take yourself as being in the middle of the feature, which you should, you are never ever 150m out!
It's a bit like changing the markings of a stream or river on the map due to its width on the ground. At some point in the process it's a human decision.
In reply to seaofdreams:
Another way to think is that it isn't really possible or practical to be more precise than a 6 figure grid reference on a 1:50k map, but that reference (a 'point' on the map) is actually a 100m square on the ground. A GPS will give you 10 figures (1 metre), but you can't actually use that level of accuracy with the map.
Another way to think is that it isn't really possible or practical to be more precise than a 6 figure grid reference on a 1:50k map, but that reference (a 'point' on the map) is actually a 100m square on the ground. A GPS will give you 10 figures (1 metre), but you can't actually use that level of accuracy with the map.
In reply to summo:
thats the thing that most people forget about error, you can't use the middle of the road or trig point becasue the real loaction is just somewhere in that area. not the middle.
so yes you can be 150 m out...
Ill say no more either listen to what i am saying or don't its not important becasue even if you think that a printed sheet is good to +-25 m you GPS error is still smaller than that.
thats the thing that most people forget about error, you can't use the middle of the road or trig point becasue the real loaction is just somewhere in that area. not the middle.
so yes you can be 150 m out...
Ill say no more either listen to what i am saying or don't its not important becasue even if you think that a printed sheet is good to +-25 m you GPS error is still smaller than that.
In reply to johnSD:
I disagree, are you saying you can't tell for certain where you are within 100m?
On 1:50000, I would say 25m or less, depending on the features etc.
On 1:25000, half the above.
You can have a 1-2mm knoll, spur, etc. and you shoulf know with total certainty if you are on the top or NESW part of it.
If these errors you talk of exist, there will have been a lot of very competent navigators walking off the top of big hills like the Ben and Meagaidh, or falling into Corrie Cas. I know some have but there probably did not have a map and compass in their hand at the time.
> (In reply to seaofdreams)> Another way to think is that it isn't really possible or practical to be more precise than a 6 figure grid reference on a 1:50k map, but that reference (a 'point' on the map) is actually a 100m square on the ground. A GPS will give you 10 figures (1 metre), but you can't actually use that level of accuracy with the map.
I disagree, are you saying you can't tell for certain where you are within 100m?
On 1:50000, I would say 25m or less, depending on the features etc.
On 1:25000, half the above.
You can have a 1-2mm knoll, spur, etc. and you shoulf know with total certainty if you are on the top or NESW part of it.
If these errors you talk of exist, there will have been a lot of very competent navigators walking off the top of big hills like the Ben and Meagaidh, or falling into Corrie Cas. I know some have but there probably did not have a map and compass in their hand at the time.
In reply to the real dr gav: dont know if using phone a good idea. probably cheap electronics and not designed for sole use as a gps, therefore higher risk of it malfunctioning. also, are phones waterproof? keep your phone zipped up safe in case you need it and use a waterproof, bombproof gps
In reply to summo: you are assuming maps are correct, its quite common for whole cliffs to be missing from a map, let alone other anomalies
In reply to Erik B:
I am, there might be odd outcrop of 1 or 2m high and very short length missing, but not really encountered anything bigger missing. Any examples of this 'quite common' error? There was a carpark on top of one of Fans in the Brecons many years ago, but I think it's closed now!
European maps, now they are poor at times.
> (In reply to summo) you are assuming maps are correct, its quite common for whole cliffs to be missing from a map, let alone other anomalies
I am, there might be odd outcrop of 1 or 2m high and very short length missing, but not really encountered anything bigger missing. Any examples of this 'quite common' error? There was a carpark on top of one of Fans in the Brecons many years ago, but I think it's closed now!
European maps, now they are poor at times.
In reply to Erik B:
In the main the OS is very reliable, though there are some locations (like my fathers old house) which are intentionally mis-mapped for copyright fraud detection. However some of the mountains are mapped indicatively - ie "this is an area of rocky / boggy ground" rather than " this is the precise line of the cliff edge"
A friend using surveying dGPS in Uganda said that roads and buildings were routinely 10s of metres out on the definitive maps, and certainly when you are using that kind of GPS, you'll find anomalies in minor features in the UK - I've found misplaced water courses (only by a couple of metres) in the Peak. Ironically the majority of trig points are now obsolete, replaced by dGPS reference points.
> (In reply to summo) you are assuming maps are correct, its quite common for whole cliffs to be missing from a map, let alone other anomalies
In the main the OS is very reliable, though there are some locations (like my fathers old house) which are intentionally mis-mapped for copyright fraud detection. However some of the mountains are mapped indicatively - ie "this is an area of rocky / boggy ground" rather than " this is the precise line of the cliff edge"
A friend using surveying dGPS in Uganda said that roads and buildings were routinely 10s of metres out on the definitive maps, and certainly when you are using that kind of GPS, you'll find anomalies in minor features in the UK - I've found misplaced water courses (only by a couple of metres) in the Peak. Ironically the majority of trig points are now obsolete, replaced by dGPS reference points.
In reply to summo:
I heard tell that the Spanish mark paths in some areas as a statement of intent - if they mark a path, maybe people will follow the line and make one.
> (In reply to Erik B)
>
> European maps, now they are poor at times.
> European maps, now they are poor at times.
I heard tell that the Spanish mark paths in some areas as a statement of intent - if they mark a path, maybe people will follow the line and make one.
In reply to summo: take up exploratory new routing and you will find plenty of examples
In reply to summo:
You can be accurate to within 25m or less, but you can't state your location with greater precision than 100m... (maybe a bit less if you get the ruler out and estimate an 8 figure grid reference, but I'm not that confident with tenths of a mm).
Yes, of course. And your reading of an accurate grid reference on the map could still be scores of metres different to the location given by your GPS. Neither is in error.
> I disagree, are you saying you can't tell for certain where you are within 100m?
You can be accurate to within 25m or less, but you can't state your location with greater precision than 100m... (maybe a bit less if you get the ruler out and estimate an 8 figure grid reference, but I'm not that confident with tenths of a mm).
> You can have a 1-2mm knoll, spur, etc. and you shoulf know with total certainty if you are on the top or NESW part of it.
Yes, of course. And your reading of an accurate grid reference on the map could still be scores of metres different to the location given by your GPS. Neither is in error.
In reply to toad:
Yeah, often it's the mappers call where does a boulder field begin, or what is marsh or just a bit damp!
A few metres error sounds about right to me. Most trig points are still intact though thanks to the adopt a trig.
> (In reply to Erik B)
> [...]. However some of the mountains are mapped indicatively - ie "this is an area of rocky / boggy ground" rather than " this is the precise line of the cliff edge"
> [...]. However some of the mountains are mapped indicatively - ie "this is an area of rocky / boggy ground" rather than " this is the precise line of the cliff edge"
Yeah, often it's the mappers call where does a boulder field begin, or what is marsh or just a bit damp!
> certainly when you are using that kind of GPS, you'll find anomalies in minor features in the UK - I've found misplaced water courses (only by a couple of metres) in the Peak. Ironically the majority of trig points are now obsolete, replaced by dGPS reference points.
A few metres error sounds about right to me. Most trig points are still intact though thanks to the adopt a trig.
In reply to summo:
if you are up for it i will show what we are talking about with a challange.
If you can locate yourself on an OS 1:50000 scale sheet (in middling terrain) and give me an 8 fig refrence without the use of GPS and get it right 9 times out of 10 when i compare your grid ref to that of my GPS ill back down...
shall we say, ardnamurchan the next weekend the weather isnt great for climbing. reason being that i have sheets enlarged to 1:5000 (from 1:10000) for that region and i know the ground very well. you can use my site compass and calculator plus any bits of string or flags that you want.
if you are up for it i will show what we are talking about with a challange.
If you can locate yourself on an OS 1:50000 scale sheet (in middling terrain) and give me an 8 fig refrence without the use of GPS and get it right 9 times out of 10 when i compare your grid ref to that of my GPS ill back down...
shall we say, ardnamurchan the next weekend the weather isnt great for climbing. reason being that i have sheets enlarged to 1:5000 (from 1:10000) for that region and i know the ground very well. you can use my site compass and calculator plus any bits of string or flags that you want.
In reply to johnSD:
That's the thing if they we both in error (1 through the printing process, the other satellite) say + and - 10m , you might by chance be spot on! My argument was with the posters saying that map based naving was 150-200m out or that you can't navigate accurately with a map and need a GPS to be safe, or enjoy winter mountaineering. Some very impressive feats of navigation have been carried out around the world and through the ages, using just maps and human skills. No batteries involved at all!
> (In reply to summo)
> You can be accurate to within 25m or less, but you can't state your location with greater precision than 100m... (maybe a bit less if you get the ruler out and estimate an 8 figure grid reference, but I'm not that confident with tenths of a mm).
Of course, but I'm sure any competant naver, could get it better than 6fig, even if it's only within 20-50m accuracy, this of course very much depends on the feature your stood on. > You can be accurate to within 25m or less, but you can't state your location with greater precision than 100m... (maybe a bit less if you get the ruler out and estimate an 8 figure grid reference, but I'm not that confident with tenths of a mm).
> Yes, of course. And your reading of an accurate grid reference on the map could still be scores of metres different to the location given by your GPS. Neither is in error.
That's the thing if they we both in error (1 through the printing process, the other satellite) say + and - 10m , you might by chance be spot on! My argument was with the posters saying that map based naving was 150-200m out or that you can't navigate accurately with a map and need a GPS to be safe, or enjoy winter mountaineering. Some very impressive feats of navigation have been carried out around the world and through the ages, using just maps and human skills. No batteries involved at all!
In reply to summo:
hold on just a moment
I NEVER said you need a GPS to be safe...
I also never said that you can't navigate accurately as navigation is far MORE than where you are or where tha maps says you are. Like Rob Durran suggested, theres a lot of know how involved too.
please dont put words in my mouth.
hold on just a moment
I NEVER said you need a GPS to be safe...
I also never said that you can't navigate accurately as navigation is far MORE than where you are or where tha maps says you are. Like Rob Durran suggested, theres a lot of know how involved too.
please dont put words in my mouth.
In reply to hwackerhage: I think I partly agree with the OP. If you draw a comparison to other areas where old technology has replaced by new you can see it coming. Who remembers the first digital watches ! How many yachts carry a sextant these days ? Who admits to have carried an old brass altimeter? Story: When i was a student i learn to dive and my buddy bought one of the first diving computers, we had this same arguement then. "They'll never replace the depth gauge and tables", said I, was I wrong , every diver has them these days.
It's just a question of cost, when they become 'cheap enough' people will buy them, use them and the old ways will be parked with a few ludites harping on about the good old days and how a map feels right and his skills are more reliable that this new fangled technology. A few teathing problems along the way will highlight short-comings and everyone will learn. Robustness, resilience and High availabilty will get designed in and they will become the norm.
"there's an app for that".... Tubbs
It's just a question of cost, when they become 'cheap enough' people will buy them, use them and the old ways will be parked with a few ludites harping on about the good old days and how a map feels right and his skills are more reliable that this new fangled technology. A few teathing problems along the way will highlight short-comings and everyone will learn. Robustness, resilience and High availabilty will get designed in and they will become the norm.
"there's an app for that".... Tubbs
In reply to seaofdreams:
If only my life was that flexible, I think i could get close to 25m accuracy, on reasonable featured terrain. If it was mapped on 1:10000 (a good orienteering scale if there ever was) then it 'should' be do-able! How will I know your GPS is right though
Once raced on similar terrain to the interior of the Ardnamurchan ring in Sweden, only it was forested, 1:7500 map with 2.5m contours, quite tasty at times!
> (In reply to summo)> If you can locate yourself on an OS 1:50000 scale sheet (in middling terrain) and give me an 8 fig refrence without the use of GPS and get it right 9 times out of 10 when i compare your grid ref to that of my GPS ill back down...>
> shall we say, ardnamurchan the next weekend the weather isnt great for climbing. reason being that i have sheets enlarged to 1:5000 (from 1:10000) for that region and i know the ground very well.
> shall we say, ardnamurchan the next weekend the weather isnt great for climbing. reason being that i have sheets enlarged to 1:5000 (from 1:10000) for that region and i know the ground very well.
If only my life was that flexible, I think i could get close to 25m accuracy, on reasonable featured terrain. If it was mapped on 1:10000 (a good orienteering scale if there ever was) then it 'should' be do-able! How will I know your GPS is right though
Once raced on similar terrain to the interior of the Ardnamurchan ring in Sweden, only it was forested, 1:7500 map with 2.5m contours, quite tasty at times!
In reply to seaofdreams:
I know, I said 'posters' and should have specified, like Eric B when talking about topping out scared etc.. Sorry.
> (In reply to summo)> hold on just a moment> I NEVER said you need a GPS to be safe...> I also never said that you can't navigate accurately as navigation is far MORE than where you are or where tha maps says you are. Like Rob Durran suggested, theres a lot of know how involved too.> please dont put words in my mouth.
I know, I said 'posters' and should have specified, like Eric B when talking about topping out scared etc.. Sorry.
In reply to the real dr gav:
good question
i read that it's actually an accepted limitation of GPS
the system was designed to be accurate lon and lat wise but altitude wasn't part of the original spec. so you get discrepancies compared to the map data which is surveyed and so pretty accurate.
good question
i read that it's actually an accepted limitation of GPS
the system was designed to be accurate lon and lat wise but altitude wasn't part of the original spec. so you get discrepancies compared to the map data which is surveyed and so pretty accurate.
In reply to rallymania:
It's more just down to the geometry of the triangulation. There is an uncertainty in the GPS measurement meaning that it locates you in a volume of space rather than at a point - and because the satellites are a long way above us, it means that volume of uncertainty is bigger in the up/down direction than side to side.
> > the system was designed to be accurate lon and lat wise but altitude wasn't part of the original spec.
It's more just down to the geometry of the triangulation. There is an uncertainty in the GPS measurement meaning that it locates you in a volume of space rather than at a point - and because the satellites are a long way above us, it means that volume of uncertainty is bigger in the up/down direction than side to side.
In reply to Tubbs:
Cheers for your reply and I agree.
Btw. I enjoy map and compass navigation but in poor conditions on the cairngorm plateau on the Ben after a climb I would go straight for the GPS rather faff with map and compass.
Cheers for your reply and I agree.
Btw. I enjoy map and compass navigation but in poor conditions on the cairngorm plateau on the Ben after a climb I would go straight for the GPS rather faff with map and compass.
In reply to Tubbs:I'd be interested to know if recreational yachtsmen pondered over whether it was right or wrong to use a gps when they became available to them?
In reply to summo:
Whilst I agree that our country is incredibly well mapped, 1:25,000 isn't all that accurate. I'm sure some features are spot on, but things like the rights of way marked on Explorer maps, when displayed over Mastermap (1:1250) are way out.
Whilst I agree that our country is incredibly well mapped, 1:25,000 isn't all that accurate. I'm sure some features are spot on, but things like the rights of way marked on Explorer maps, when displayed over Mastermap (1:1250) are way out.
In reply to Tubbs:
You're bang on there, I am just emerging from my luddite cave and am very excited at the technological possibilities of the next decade.
I previously scoffed at GPS with digital mapping, thinking that it was good to get at least some respite from screen based activity.
Then I got a GPS phone a couple of weeks ago and walked my dog while following my progress on google maps. I then thought wouldn't it be great if this device had accurate contour maps saved to its memory?
ie wouldn't a GPS with digital mapping be great?
Just as digital music has become universally accepted, books and maps will soon replace their paper predecessors. I think that both are very close indeed.
> Robustness, resilience and High availabilty will get designed in and they will become the norm.
> "there's an app for that".... Tubbs
> "there's an app for that".... Tubbs
You're bang on there, I am just emerging from my luddite cave and am very excited at the technological possibilities of the next decade.
I previously scoffed at GPS with digital mapping, thinking that it was good to get at least some respite from screen based activity.
Then I got a GPS phone a couple of weeks ago and walked my dog while following my progress on google maps. I then thought wouldn't it be great if this device had accurate contour maps saved to its memory?
ie wouldn't a GPS with digital mapping be great?
Just as digital music has become universally accepted, books and maps will soon replace their paper predecessors. I think that both are very close indeed.
In reply to Gripped:
I doubt it, charts were/are expensive, they are tedious and time-consuming to keep up to date. For anyone who travels further than their local shoreline the number required and storage is not insignificant and sourcing charts on route might not be too easy if not onboard when setting out. Electronic mapping is rather more friendly and can be integrated with radar and other systems. Overall if the electronics is reliable then there is no contest. Knowing how to navigate without electronics is necessary and there is always the risk of total power failure but most yachts would have backup systems.
> (In reply to Tubbs)I'd be interested to know if recreational yachtsmen pondered over whether it was right or wrong to use a gps when they became available to them?
I doubt it, charts were/are expensive, they are tedious and time-consuming to keep up to date. For anyone who travels further than their local shoreline the number required and storage is not insignificant and sourcing charts on route might not be too easy if not onboard when setting out. Electronic mapping is rather more friendly and can be integrated with radar and other systems. Overall if the electronics is reliable then there is no contest. Knowing how to navigate without electronics is necessary and there is always the risk of total power failure but most yachts would have backup systems.
Quote 'Under a worst-case replenishment scenario foreseen by the recent U.S. Government Accountability Office report, the number of operational GPS satellites might drop below 24 in the next two years due to procurement delays'
there's a lot of comments made here about the benefits of GPS, as somebody that works in that industry I wouldn't venture on the hills without a map and compass for love nor money. the military use different signals from that used in your garmin, if its good enough for them isn't a valid arguement. do you think they send in bunker busters using a £150 gps unit running on triple A's. No, i didn't think they did either. If GPS was infallible why are the Russians rebuilding GLONASS, the EU spending billions on GALLILEO, the Chinese launching COMPASS, the Indians, Japanese etc etc etc.
A useful tool, but no adequate supplied toolbox has only one tool in it.
there's a lot of comments made here about the benefits of GPS, as somebody that works in that industry I wouldn't venture on the hills without a map and compass for love nor money. the military use different signals from that used in your garmin, if its good enough for them isn't a valid arguement. do you think they send in bunker busters using a £150 gps unit running on triple A's. No, i didn't think they did either. If GPS was infallible why are the Russians rebuilding GLONASS, the EU spending billions on GALLILEO, the Chinese launching COMPASS, the Indians, Japanese etc etc etc.
A useful tool, but no adequate supplied toolbox has only one tool in it.
In reply to Seocan: Come on, when the GPS konks out you just use the map, no problem! Oh, so you you werent really paying attention as you had the GPS and now you you are not quite sure 'cus you hadnt looked for a while (as you had the GPS)...oh thats a real pity....
In reply to hwackerhage:
No need to spend so much money on a GPS with maps. It is very simple to run Memory Map on a cheap car sat nav. Search google and you will see. I have a sat nav for under 50 quid from ebuyer with OS maps and GPS.
No need to spend so much money on a GPS with maps. It is very simple to run Memory Map on a cheap car sat nav. Search google and you will see. I have a sat nav for under 50 quid from ebuyer with OS maps and GPS.
In reply to Wainers44:
i'm not sure what you're saying. are you saying gps is good or bad, oor agreeing with what i said
i'm not sure what you're saying. are you saying gps is good or bad, oor agreeing with what i said
In reply to Seocan: Agreeing with you. GPS have their limitations and can also be great bits of kit. I just dont think its as easy as some on here would have you believe, ie just start using the map again if the GPS fails for some reason. I have seen them lead to people becoming lazy with their nav. Wouldnt affect everyone that I way I dare say, but a GPS isnt the navigation answer to all problems.
In reply to Seocan:
I should think the fact that they don't like being reliant on the USA is sufficient for them to develop alternative systems - not that the USA ever plays the bully boy.
Quite! Common sense is a must in most toolboxes and the GPS unit might have the addition of a barometer and altimeter which would also help in aiding navigation. A good navigator should use the best tools at his disposal and eliminating one of the most useful is probably unwise. That some would use GPS and have maps as backup and some the other way round is mainly down to transition. I would place my bets on the GPS for all future use as it is now taking over for yacht navigation.
> Quote 'Under a worst-case replenishment scenario foreseen by the recent U.S. Government Accountability Office report, the number of operational GPS satellites might drop below 24 in the next two years due to procurement delays'
>
> there's a lot of comments made here about the benefits of GPS, as somebody that works in that industry I wouldn't venture on the hills without a map and compass for love nor money. the military use different signals from that used in your garmin, if its good enough for them isn't a valid arguement. do you think they send in bunker busters using a £150 gps unit running on triple A's. No, i didn't think they did either. If GPS was infallible why are the Russians rebuilding GLONASS, the EU spending billions on GALLILEO, the Chinese launching COMPASS, the Indians, Japanese etc etc etc.
>
> there's a lot of comments made here about the benefits of GPS, as somebody that works in that industry I wouldn't venture on the hills without a map and compass for love nor money. the military use different signals from that used in your garmin, if its good enough for them isn't a valid arguement. do you think they send in bunker busters using a £150 gps unit running on triple A's. No, i didn't think they did either. If GPS was infallible why are the Russians rebuilding GLONASS, the EU spending billions on GALLILEO, the Chinese launching COMPASS, the Indians, Japanese etc etc etc.
I should think the fact that they don't like being reliant on the USA is sufficient for them to develop alternative systems - not that the USA ever plays the bully boy.
>
> A useful tool, but no adequate supplied toolbox has only one tool in it.
> A useful tool, but no adequate supplied toolbox has only one tool in it.
Quite! Common sense is a must in most toolboxes and the GPS unit might have the addition of a barometer and altimeter which would also help in aiding navigation. A good navigator should use the best tools at his disposal and eliminating one of the most useful is probably unwise. That some would use GPS and have maps as backup and some the other way round is mainly down to transition. I would place my bets on the GPS for all future use as it is now taking over for yacht navigation.
In reply to hwackerhage: Call me tight but gps for £300, map and compass £30 ish quid. Ill stick to the maps, cheaper and they are better for just picking of the bookshelf and looking at.
I now carry a basic GPS in my pack after spending a night in a snow coffin on the top of the Cairngorm plateau in a storm which peaked at 117mph gusts. 30 hours were spent from setting off until returning to the car after my mate lost the bearing he so positively insisted that he could follow. In a bad storm on a plateau a GPS can be a lot more reliable than following a bearing by pacing.
GPS - It's all on the i-phone, both as a map or if you prefer as a Google Earth image, so that's the way to go.
My last GPS resides in a box in a cupboard. It got somewhat moist on one walk, packed up and never worked again .... good job I could use a map and compass I guess.
My last GPS resides in a box in a cupboard. It got somewhat moist on one walk, packed up and never worked again .... good job I could use a map and compass I guess.
In reply to zukator:
I have an iphone I personally wouldn't see it as a replacement to a GPS. The maps that I am aware of are downloaded real time so will not be available without phone reception (although there may be an app I don't have yet), you can get an app to give you map based coords, but the GPS is pretty weak and not as good as a garmin anyway. Also its a fragile phone not meant for outdoor pursuits. Furthermore in low temperatures the touch screen seems to stop functioning and it is not rated for temps below zero either.
I have an iphone I personally wouldn't see it as a replacement to a GPS. The maps that I am aware of are downloaded real time so will not be available without phone reception (although there may be an app I don't have yet), you can get an app to give you map based coords, but the GPS is pretty weak and not as good as a garmin anyway. Also its a fragile phone not meant for outdoor pursuits. Furthermore in low temperatures the touch screen seems to stop functioning and it is not rated for temps below zero either.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
If you don't mind me asking, what model and how much did it cost (including the mapping)?
Ta
> (In reply to seaofdreams)
>
> I have a GPS with the whole of britain on it 1:50000
>
> I have a GPS with the whole of britain on it 1:50000
If you don't mind me asking, what model and how much did it cost (including the mapping)?
Ta
In reply to hwackerhage: For my hiking trips, if they are not longer than 7, 8 hours I use this application installed on my phone http://www.sportypal.com , it records the route, and the map. Or if I go with someone that has garmin we always post those trips on http://www.everytrail.com .
I think those two websites are not that bad for analyzing the performances and routes.
I think those two websites are not that bad for analyzing the performances and routes.
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