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corporate jaunts - 12 go wild on Mont Blanc

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Milla 22 Aug 2001
OK, here's a question. What do people think about companies using mountaineering and climbing as "corporate bonding" tools?

I'm a journalist and just got sent a press release from a company crowing about a recent trip up Mont Blanc, which was an exercise designed to prove it was "a dynamic, ambitious and team-orientated organisation".

"It was essential that every team member made it to the top, since each one had brought a different part of a special banner to wave at the top," said the release.

I guess the reason this made me feel uncomfortable was the assumption that everyone would be able to make the summit, therefore suggesting a sense of blow-it-all heroicism, and the fact that I hadn't realised how popular these types of trips are.

Am I being pathetic, or does it annoy others that multinational companies want to get their brands on the top of mountains just for the sake of it?

Shall I get my coat now?
Anita 22 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla: Afew years ago I was on the Ben and there was a team building exercise group of Unilever managers doing the three peaks! (groans all round) They had a group on the Ben and another on Snowdon and the two were meeting in the lakes. Funnily enough they got lost on the tourist down to the Youth Hostel!!! Oh I laughed!
OP AndrewB 22 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla:
Haven't they even seen Vertical Limit yet. We all know where that got them.
 Lummox 22 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla: Corporate Team Building translation : load of old bollocks.Not sure much else needs to be added.
Sloper 22 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla: Brillaint Idea.

If only I could persuade my director to organise a trip to Yosemite to facilitate the integration of corporate functions while conforming to cohesive and yet dynanic interpersonal objectives.

Don't mock the dozen lucky souls who probably spent months scheeming for a freebie to the alps.
Milla 22 Aug 2001
In reply to Lummox: Yeah, it may be a load of old balls, but they're all at it.

How long before a coachload of bankers get thrown up Everest to wave flags and tell the world how great their company is?

And if they've got the cash, who's going to protest?
Milla 22 Aug 2001
In reply to Sloper: I wasn't mocking the people who, indeed, would have been kissing botty for a while to get to go. It's more to do with companies encroaching on yet more areas to promote themselves.

Liking your management babble though - been watching The Office?
 Lummox 22 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla: err, think that has already happened wasn`t one of the people Anatoli Bukreev et al rescued on Everest a writer for Cosmo NY and NY "celebrity" or something ?
Sloper 22 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla: No I think its shit.

By the way that was without even thinking. You should see what i can produce when I really turn my mind to it!
 andy 22 Aug 2001
In reply to Lummox: That'd be the 'New York Socialite' woman, name escapes me, though.

Have you seen the new anti-perspirant ad featuring 'top mountaineer' Bear Grills (which I'm sure is some kind of burger)? Very windswept, I must say.
Milla 22 Aug 2001
In reply to Lummox: You're right. Sandy Pitt-someone was the New York socialite and women's mag writer.

I guess it's a fine line between private clients paying an arm and a leg to climb those kind of peaks and companies forking out for people to do it for publicity.
Milla 22 Aug 2001
In reply to andy: I was thinking about that today. Is he still the youngest Briton to climb Everest?
 andy 22 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla: So it says - 23, I think - although didn't a younger one die on the way down then his dad tried to sue the guides?
felix 22 Aug 2001
i have to admit i organised a team to enter one of those Childrens Aid Direct events in the Lakes for three years running when i worked in the City. before anyone says, i know (now) that there are a lot of very valid criticisms of these events, such as the erosion impact, the disturbance to local communities etc. but, as well as the considerable amounts raised for 'charidee, mate', putting a group of people from varying backgrounds with experience of the outdoors ranging from 'top-level fell-runnner' to 'hyde park, but not out of sight of Macdonalds' is an excellent way to build a team, and improve working relationships. sad, but true. there's no point in saying its bollocks just out of a general antipathy towards corporate life. i would agree that insisting on people getting the top of Mt Blanc is over the top, but as its a press release its obviously just cack made up after the event.
Philippe 22 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla:
I work for a coporate company and I have been using 'climbing' as a tool to develop team (not just team building). It is very powerful when used properly. I coupled this with identifying character and personality as well as 'managing a situation'. For example: knowing that you are doing a very difficult climb (ie you try an E1 when you can normaly lead only S). You are certain to fail. However, you need to do it in a way that you 'fail to learn' and not 'fail to fail'. Other stuff can include leadership. When you are roped with a team and make an attempt on a peak, people can react differently. You need (as a leader) to take in account a lot of things:rResponsible, being involve, consulting.. etc.. Hence, it helps to think about your skills outside a 'classic' environment and give you an opportunity to to reapply in your daily job.... BUT it is not (inmho) a branding excercise (again, if done properly).

Hope this help the debat.
Chris H 22 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla:
Why dont they do something useful like picking up litter or helping the homeless. Climbing MBlanc proves bugger all except that they are reasonably fit.
Chris H 22 Aug 2001
In reply to Philippe:
"For example: knowing that you are doing a very difficult climb (ie you try an E1 when you can normaly lead only S). You are certain to fail. However, you need to do it in a way that you 'fail to learn' and not 'fail to fail'"


What does this mean ?
stonemaster 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Chris H: Possibly fail in order to learn instead of failing inorder to learn how to fail. Or is it learning how to fail instead of failing how to learn to fail. But not learning not how to fail. I think...... or maybe I don't......
Rob Naylor 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla:

I don't think Bear Grylls ever was the youngest Brit to climb Everest. I seem to recall some controversy at the time, and comments that at least 2 younger Brits were there before him. Can't get up the interest/enthusiasm to chase down details, though.
 Adam Lincoln 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla:

I think you absolutely right Milla! What a shambles!


 Monk 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

I've got friends who are not allowed to go on outdoor activity team building exercises as they would "enjoy it too much"!
Ninian 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla: You're quite right, this sort of thing is a pile of abject pish...goals orientated...natural self starter...thinking out of the box...hungry...team players...excellent communication skills blah blah.

That said I have got to say that I would be glad to be sent on such a jaunt rather than spending the week in the office ~anyone who thinks otherwise must have an unnaturally high level of job satisfaction or is clearly a very sad individual!
 Horse 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Ninian:

Of course it all a load of bollocks but it isn't new and is it really that different to Barclays bank sponsoring Old Bonio and his mates up the side of that Himalayan refuse tip in the '70's.

Would I go on one, probably but once I got there I would do my level best to go missing with a mate and do my own thing. It's just so easy to get lost in the mountains
felix 23 Aug 2001
you lot are a bunch of miserable gits! have you never been part of a group of people who have had some epic adventure together and felt a sense of increased empathy, achievement, and bonding as a result? i bet you have, climbing has all that in abundance. so it is just as useful for others, including those in a corporate environment.

as for saying 'why dont they go an do something useful like feed the homeless' why pick on these guys to throw that criticism about? that could be aimed just as much, if not more so, at everyone else on this site who spends so much time, money and effort just having a fun and indulging themselves.
 Lummox 23 Aug 2001
In reply to felix: don`t feel that grumpy today Felix- it`s looking good for tonight bouldering- I just absolutely hate the whole charade that is carried out in the name of "team building". Have you watched "The Office" with Ricky Jervaise at all? I can kind of understand it in America or Japan...
Flip 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla:

Ever seen those job ads in the papers "wanted high achiever 50k p.a." with a picture of a mountaineer on it. Any one ever applied and got such a job cos' they can climb?
That's the advertising industry for you ...hah. Not a clue.
Chris H 23 Aug 2001
In reply to felix:
Sorry Felix I am very grumpy this morning!
"have you never been part of a group of people who have had some epic adventure together and felt a sense of increased empathy, achievement, and bonding as a result?"

Do these corporate training days actually involve epic adventure ? Or just a days toproping somewhere. No doubt if the MBlanc team actually did have an epic, they would be sueing the guides / leader.



"as for saying 'why dont they go an do something useful like feed the homeless' why pick on these guys to throw that criticism about? that could be aimed just as much, if not more so, at everyone else on this site who spends so much time, money and effort just having a fun and indulging themselves."

Because we`re having fun and indulging ourselves and they are using MBlanc as a tool for company advertising.
Chris H 23 Aug 2001
In reply to stonemaster:
But if you fail to fail ....then as a double negative you have succeeded. Or am I not looking at the whole pie?
 Lummox 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Chris H: think you have to sing from the same hymn sheet, look at the key players yada yad yada ..
Rob Naylor 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Chris H:

<<Do these corporate training days actually involve epic adventure ? Or just a days toproping somewhere.>>

For a lot of the people that go on these things, top-roping somewhere *is* an epic adventure. The sheer incomprehension I get from a lot colleagues and neighbours when they see me going off climbing somewhere is a real eye-opener about what a lot of people consider "adventurous".

As for your last point, I agree that a company using Mt Blanc for corporate publicity is an entirely different kettle of fish to people out there having a larf. Don't think Felix is really referring to that sort of thing, though...more the kind of group exercises that might get a photo in the company mag, rather than forming a mainstay of the marketing dept.

What I wonder is how the participants are selected for these bonding exercise programmes that are starting to clog up the TV schedules? Caught odd bits of a couple of them recently and the teams generally seem to have been selected for maximum "numptiness" quotient. Couple of damp nights in Scotland and some of them are ready to jack it in before they've started.

Don't suppose the entertainment value (such as it is)would be so high if those selected turned out to be competent!



OP Andy Myles 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla:

That'll be Fujitsu then ? (I think it was them.)

Why should company employees be any less eligible to go to the top of some mountain than
any other joe soap ? Has someone contacted the owner of Mont Blanc to ask their opinion ?

Andy
Milla 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Andy Myles: T'was Hitachi.

I'm not getting at the individuals. As people, of course they're free to do what they want as long as they're safe and competent.

My point was the fact that, frankly, as far as the company's concerned, they don't really give a shit who does on this type of publicity-drumming exercise, because the real reason for doing it is so they can give their brand more profile.

And, hey, we should really be doing their PR, as it's got coverage here...!
Chris H 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla:
If I heard that a company had organised a litter pick up or made its employees work with the homeless I would be really impressed and possibly buy their products. Hearing some Hitachi people have climbed Mt.Blanc has unfortunately ensured I will actively avoid buying their products in the future.
stonemaster 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Chris H: Sorry, brain circuits overloaded a while ago. Unable to deal with negatives of positive taht are positves when negative of negative is.....aaargh.
OP Andy Myles 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Milla:

Was there evidence to suggest that they were not competent, were coerced, or some such ?

Is there evidence to suggest that only mountaineers who are not on comany jollies are fully
competent and hence only they should be eligible to be on the hill ? What if the Hitachi party
had been comprised of very competent mountaineers (dunno...). I'm sure that they would have
been ecstatic at being given a chance to go there on company money.

What I'm really trying to get to here is: assuming that they didn't do any (more than a normal
party would cause) damage to the mountain, cause inconveniece to the local rescue services
or such, then what's the problem ? Of course, I realise that this is a general thing, so we have
to ask "on average, do work outings cause more of some mystery bad quantity X than other
types of expiditions ?". Is there evidence of this ?

I should state that my reason for jumping in on this thread was that I just have to play Devil's
advocate (so don't take it personally, Milla!) when I see folks saying "THEY shouldn't be allowed
to do THAT" (often with an implicit "in MY playground") when I don't see any evidence of "THAT" being particularly harmful. If they didn't cause any erosion or inconvenience to others greatly
outwith what an "average" party would cause (and I don't know if they did or didn't) then I say "Good
luck to you, you jammy gits, on your company jollie to the Alps."

I've got no problem with this being a corporate thing provided that no particular harm arose (or could be
shown to be more likely to arise in general) as a direct consequence of that (e.g. greater than average
chance of a rescue services call out).


Andy
OP Andy Myles 23 Aug 2001
In reply to Andy Myles:

Geez! I think I must have repeated the same points about 3 times in that last post. Please accept my
apologies for how tedious it looks!

Lesson to learn here kids - think and type *away* from the computer first.

Anyhows, it's way past home time...

Andy

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