UKC

Something I've been thinking about for quite some time, being a Lochaber-based, year-round hill runner. Must work with running shoes, so talking about things like Kahtoola MICROspikes or KTS and more limited models like Charlet Moser Spikys and Grivel Spiders (which I'm aware are *not* crampons and *not* recommended for real hills). But interested to hear from anyone who uses such things... what you've got, how well they work, how much/little faff to get them on and off, how durable etc?

In reply to petestack:

Get in touch with PTC via his blog; he's into that sort of thing.


http://www.petesy.co.uk/

In reply to petestack:

been thinkin about it but not actually done anything yet.
have seen that dean karnazes had a set up in antartica or somewhere - horizontal fronts, alloys, with a spring steele bar.

probably only can be done with strap ons.

In reply to petestack: We've got the kahtoolas KTS. Not used them in anger yet. Spoke to a few of the lakes runners who have used them.

I have a light ski mountaineering axe as well, something like few hundred grams. Used it more than the crampons, very light so a bit of a weak swing, but has got me up solid snow slopes no problem.

So far all the snow we've approched have been very gentle or short section si if I approach a snow bank running, I'd tend to gran the axe and use that rather than get the crampons.

In reply to petestack:

Check out the FRA forums: www.fellrunner.org.uk

They have some info on running crampons, though it may take a bit of digging.

In reply to petestack:

someone on another forum mentioned these as an option for running on icy surfaces. Thought I'd share as I'd not heard of them before: http://www.yaktrax.co.uk/shop/index.php

In reply to petestack:the yaktrax might be fine walking, not sure the rubber would last long though, if running.

Studded orienteering shoes might be your thing, but its not like have crampon points, but would be Ok on short sections of ice or frozen neve.

http://www.compasspoint-online.co.uk/acatalog/Metal_Studded_Orienteering_Sh...
http://www.ultrasport.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=50_52

In reply to ash2020:

Thanks, I will. Although, funnily enough, I was looking at that site last night after Googling lightweight axes and still have it open in my browser.

Also know two of the team from February's sub-24 winter Tranter's Round, so must ask what they used:
http://www.shr.uk.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=204

In reply to IainRUK:

Steel or alloy KTS, Iain? (Needle Sports sell alloy, but suggest that they might not last long on UK terrain.)


Something else I'm looking into!


Sure, but it's not just about slopes. Got quite a few hill paths up here that freeze readily (eg An Cumhann on the way to Loch Eilde Mor, which is usually the first) but where an axe wouldn't help.

In reply to George Ormerod:

Will do.

In reply to Tall Clare:

Another option to consider, although I suspect I'm looking for something more robust.

In reply to summo:

If it's just rubber studs, like most hill runners I've already got quite a choice of appropriate shoes. If you're suggesting the metal-tipped ones, I doubt I'm wanting to take that route ATM, but thanks for the idea.

In reply to petestack: alloy, for north wales use they are fine, up north, colder, longer periods of winter weather, i'd have considered steel.

We don't get that many days of freezing weather or snow so they will last OK.

In australia at the moment, running in 30 deg heat at 1000m on dusty roads, Killing me. Even at 1000m its enough to make running just that little bit harder.

In reply to petestack:

I've used the Kahtoola crampons on Salomon XA's faff to setup up at home, but fine when being used. I bought Microspikes last year and personally think they are brilliant, have walked on ice (frozen river) with no slips, dead easy to fit, minimal weight, £40, I prefer them to the Kahtoola crampons.

Anatoli boukreev used to use cross country spikes lower down on the mountains, might be a thought?

In reply to petestack:

No, in a polite tone, "if you had followed my links you would have found metal studs, steel I believe."

In reply to petestack:

Anyone tried Icebug Pythos:

http://www.gear-zone.co.uk/eshop/Icebug-Pytho-Bugrip.html

In reply to summo:

In an equally polite tone, I had followed your links (before posting my reply) and found both! Hence the first part of my reply:
'If it's just rubber studs, like most hill runners I've already got quite a choice of appropriate shoes.'

And the second:
'If you're suggesting the metal-tipped ones, I doubt I'm wanting to take that route ATM, but thanks for the idea.'

In reply to Turdus torquatus:

If I remember rightly, Shane Ohly used a version of the Icebugs when he beat 30 hours for the winter Ramsay Round. He seemed to suggest that grip etc was impressive, but that after 30 hours on frozen ground his joints were pulverised by the additional hardness of the studs. Possibly not an issue for the average weekend run?

Sure Google will throw up some of his comments.

Mark

In reply to petestack:

Bought a pair of Spiders today to try because I can get them locally (at The Ice Factor), they're light, relatively inexpensive and worth a gamble (or maybe gambol?) while researching and contemplating some of the other options...

Whether they're really what I'm looking for (have my doubts about the instep-only pattern) or robust enough for my needs is another matter, but might get some idea tomorrow!

In reply to petestack:
Hi Pete, a few years ago my brother and I had a brief flirtation with the Grivel Spiders for winter walking. We concluded that the strapping system was incredibly fiddly and the units were prone to falling off just when you didn't want them to. Of course, it's quite possible they may have improved the binding since them, but we thought they were a pain in the behind! Good luck with your set.

In reply to petestack:

Now, still researching as usual after buying something, I've just discovered a simultaneous discussion on another forum suggesting that MICROspikes might just be the bee's knees as well as addressing my principal concerns about the Spiders:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_disp...

So maybe I'll end up trying them too and writing a review or two of my own to add to the number I've read tonight!

In reply to petestack:

Didn't need anything today despite choosing a route I'd have expected to be icy because everything (including the ice) was under soft, fresh snow providing good traction for hill shoes. But have ordered the MICROspikes as well after becoming convinced from yet more reviews and Kahtoola's video that they're going to take some beating as a convenient on/off system:
http://www.kahtoola.com/microspikes_video.html

No real regrets about the Spiders because I could have needed them today (and might yet in the meantime), but still have reservations about their instep/strap-on design and the MICROspikes look pretty well optimum short of something altogether more substantial (with more straps!) like the steel KTS, which I'm not currently convinced will 'run' as well and therefore not desperate to add to my existing four pairs of 'proper' crampons. So now obviously going to try both Spiders and MICROspikes and maybe review them for my blog sometime...

In reply to petestack:

For the record, I carried the Spiders up two snowy hill/trail routes on Sunday/Monday without using them before finally giving them a whirl on an icy 12-mile run from Kinlochleven to the Blackwater Dam and back tonight. So this is what I've just posted to the parallel 'Shoe snow chains' thread:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=386138

'First impressions are surprisingly positive because they stayed put on my shoes (Asics 2130 trainers), allowed me to put my feet anywhere I wanted (including passages of pure ice), brought me safely down a significant hill and back along the pavement to my house, didn't interfere with my gait at all and are still in one piece. If you're crossing cleared roads from one icy pavement to another, you'll feel/hear the unit under your instep, but it's not tall enough to cause problems and not worth taking them off for that. Having said that, I think the MICROspikes look better in just about every way (especially very clever, quick 'binding' system and better distribution of spikes), but didn't find the instep-only pattern of the Spiders as limiting as I expected tonight on ground that's probably pushing their remit. So they're clearly suitable for a town environment (where the instep design should be even less of an issue and short spikes are what you want), except that I'm still expecting to discover that the MICROspikes have them beat for everything except weight and price.'

To which I might just add that I did the straps up once (snugly but not over-tight because I was needlessly concerned about creating circulation cold spots) and left them, but never had any problem with the things moving. While they seemed to rotate slightly to find their natural position (aligned with the inside edges of my soles and the inside back spikes maybe toed in a touch), they really did stay put at that (on my running shoes anyway) and let me just run. And made a reassuring and satisfyingly 'crampony' crunch on the crispest/iciest stuff, which certainly would have had me flat on my back or picking my way at a snail's pace without them!

In reply to petestack:

Got my MICROspikes today, so had to head out for another run (this time an 8-mile round trip to Tigh-na-sleubhaich in the Lairig Mor) to try them out. Which gave me the chance to run on everything from ribbons of pure ice (where the bottom end of the path forms a natural drainage line) through following existing footsteps in the softer snow to chasing down more compacted Landrover tire tracks on the west (Fort William) side of the highest point. And they did it all as well or better than the Spiders, with the most obvious differences being the ease of fitting with that strapless/buckleless design and the added (possibly partly psychological?) confidence stemming from the more extended spike pattern. Apart from that, both Spiders and MICROspikes benefit from spikes of just the right length, meaning long enough to bite but not long enough to cramp your running style or ball up in softer stuff, which also means you can just fit and forget unless you're taking them off for obvious stretches of bare ground. Where the Spiders clearly score is in being lighter (NB light enough to carry as emergency spares!), cheaper and 'one-size-fits-all', with the MICROspikes (still pretty light!) getting the nod for the brilliant 'harness' and more crampon-like performance (think I'd be happy to run over many real hills in these). While the elastomer harness was softer than I expected, it seems to be pretty durable by all accounts and could obviously be patched on the hill with a length of shockcord or similar if any of the eyes did go. So they're looking pretty well perfect for my needs if their durability matches their functionality!

Hope to do some more testing of both yet, but my interim verdict says the MICROspikes are a seriously clever bit of kit that really works and the Spiders will do if budget (a few pounds) or weight (a few grams) really matters that much.

In reply to petestack: Many thanks for all the info. I may have to get myself some of those MICROspikes

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

Review (based on what I've written here, but somewhat expanded) now up at:
http://www.petestack.com/blog/running/running-crampon-review.html

Maybe sometime I'll get some Spikys and Yaktrax to evaluate as well for a more complete job, but there's no real need just now with what I've got well-suited to the task and really just curiosity to satisfy there!

In reply to petestack: Thanks - based on the strength of your initial comments, I've bought the MICROspikes and ran in them for the first time along an icy Curbar yesterday. Very impressed:

• Amazingly fast to take on and off. I took them off & carried them for part of the Froggatt path because there wasn't really any ice


• Running motion felt completely natural, and I could run uphill and downhill without any problems


• MICROspikes didn't stop me on small dry boulders, which I was surprised by. Obviously not as grippy on rock as clean rubber, but I didn't "skate" on the rock


• Worked well in semi-frozen mud as well as the ice


• Much lighter than I thought they would be


• Even in fresh snow where you sink in with every step, they still grip as you push off, so you aren't getting the same few inches of foot slip backwards with each stride

I haven't tried them on hard sheet ice yet.

Only negative I've found so far is that if your stride gets sloppy and you accidentally knock a foot against the opposite ankle... ouch!

Cheers

In reply to petestack and others:
Great posts; very informative. The only problem is that you are making me very envious! Oxford doesn't quite have your conditions!