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Professional coaching

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 muppetfilter 08 Jan 2010
I cant help but notice the way the BMC has taken on a "professional coaching" mentality.
I cant help but feel sad as it seems to be moving away from the ethos of climbing as a freedom activity. Rules regulations NICAS sheets and ticked boxes seem alien to the concept of going out and doing it for yourself. The rich history and ethics are eradicated by scientific coaching stratergys and taught technique to create automatons and homogenised wall climbers.The sheer lack of depth to the CWA is testament to this, having seen two people pass this who couldnt even set up a belay system with ropes!!!
For most of us our introduction to climbing probably an experience that sparked a passion and hunger to get out and do more.Not a regulated delivered coaching framework pushing for improvement but an activity in life that offers freedom and choice for self determination to take in any direction that pays back in so many different ways.
 tom84 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter: nicas is great scheme for getting young people to improve and learn and get more out of their climbing. i agree in principle to what you are saying, but ultimatly think you might be trolling.
 galpinos 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:
> The sheer lack of depth to the CWA is testament to this, having seen two people pass this who couldnt even set up a belay system with ropes!!!

The CWA is the climbing wall assesment yes? At what point indoors would you need to "set up a belay system with ropes"?

The sport/hobby/lifestyle/waste of time (according to the missus) is changing. You can see this as a good or bad thing but it's making climbing more accessible to people who wouldn't have been exposed to it. Not a bad thing in my opinion. The fact that it's through indoor walls and coaching isn't the end of the world scenario that you seem to think it is.

OP muppetfilter 08 Jan 2010
In reply to thomasfoote: Sorry im not trolling.

I dont like the whole ethos of coaching, i feel it is the role of an instructor to give the client the safe supportive environment for them to discover climbing for themselves rather than to quantify and analyse technique and movement. I remember talking to a old guide who refered to the privelidge of showing his guests new things in the mountains. This ethos sits a lot more comfortably with what i feel climbing is to the majority of us.
finleyevan 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter: Good points, well made. The 'Sport' is changing though. CWA is a gap in the market.. Good or bad, it's here to stay. Wait till we get started on the teaching leading debate. Another can o worms i think. Glad to be on the periphary these days and just doing my own thing cos i enjoys it.
 martin heywood 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:

Hopefully this "professional coaching mentality" will go some way to balancing the bias of the traditional British Climbing qualifications where anything but professional coaching is pushed. By the way, these qualifications were based on a lot more rules and regulations than anything "performance based"
In reply to muppetfilter: It depends what you interpret Coaching as. I would itrepret its meaning as teaching someone more skills on top of what they already know i.e. they [the mentee] should have some basic knowledge of climbing and the coach should be well qualified to coach.
I the CWA brings down the ladder a couple of rungs to make easier for people to progress to high qualifications. But, being qualified (CWA, SPA etc) doesn't mean that you are qualified to to Coach. Coaching is a whole different thing to supervising.
 AlisonS 08 Jan 2010
In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I think this issue of what people understand by "coaching" is crucial. I work in IT and was recently sent on a a coaching awareness workshop that is accredited by the International Coaching Federation.
This is an extract from the introduction:


"Coaching" means different things to different people, so some brief guidelines on what it is and isn't in this context:

It is:
helping people achieve their personal and professional goals through a combination of active listening and open questions
helping to build self-awareness, self-belief and personal responsibility
action-oriented
confidential and non-judgemental
driven by the "coachee"'s agenda

It isn't:
mentoring - passing knowledge or expertise from an "expert" to a "novice".
directive - giving advice, telling someone what they should do or solving their problems for them
counselling or psychotherapy;


I started mountaineering through hillwalking, but quickly reached a point where I felt hampered through lack of skills and knowledge. My first Alpine trip was preceded by a BMC course. After that I joined the Bremex mountain expedition training group, so for the first three years my mountaineering was frequently in the company of more experienced instructors. Far from diminishing personal responsibility, the whole ethos was about skills transfer and taking on greater and greater personal responsibility, and in time I became a Bremex instructor myself. For me the objective of a course is to gain the confidence to take personal responsibility from a standpoint of self-knowledge. If coaching can provide that, then those people who can benefit should be able to have that opportunity if they want it.
 Yanis Nayu 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:
> I cant help but notice the way the BMC has taken on a "professional coaching" mentality.
> I cant help but feel sad as it seems to be moving away from the ethos of climbing as a freedom activity. Rules regulations NICAS sheets and ticked boxes seem alien to the concept of going out and doing it for yourself. The rich history and ethics are eradicated by scientific coaching stratergys and taught technique to create automatons and homogenised wall climbers.The sheer lack of depth to the CWA is testament to this, having seen two people pass this who couldnt even set up a belay system with ropes!!!
> For most of us our introduction to climbing probably an experience that sparked a passion and hunger to get out and do more.Not a regulated delivered coaching framework pushing for improvement but an activity in life that offers freedom and choice for self determination to take in any direction that pays back in so many different ways.

I said exactly the same thing to my mate last night.
 woodenwealth 08 Jan 2010
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
These are much my sentiments also. I do aggree with you, muppetfilter, that ones own experience and impressions of climbing should be gained through one's own experience and exploration of climbing, but i don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with coaching and quals. If anything they bring much needed places in industry to the sport and country.

There are people crying out to become qualified instructors so that they can do and explore what they love more - climbing. I myself may fall into this category if the opportunity was available.
 Yanis Nayu 08 Jan 2010
In reply to wayno265: Although I was talking about the "badge-hunting" culture rather than coaching per se.
 john arran 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:

Coaching in climbing usually refers to any kind of instruction beyond that of learning the safety nuts and bolts. There's a good argument that if you're going to pay for any instruction at all then the safety basics are where you probably should be looking at first. Thereafter however people's opinions become more polarised.

There's an old but disappointingly enduring idea among British people in general - and climbers in particular - that sporting success is seen as fantastic but doing what is nowadays needed to achieve it is somehow not cricket. Even admitting to trying hard can be frowned upon and in some circles people risk being scoffed at heartily if they choose to pay for advice rather than paying the same amount to climb for longer making the same mistakes as ever and getting no better!

Beyond a basic introduction I learned virtually everything myself, the hard and slow way. It gave me a great grounding and has allowed me to climb all sorts of great and diverse things in all sorts of great and diverse places. I don't regret a bit of it. But if I was starting out now and had the chance to accelerate some of this learning by getting top tips from people who had the knowledge, enthusiasm and communication skills to help me I think I would jump at the chance
 timjones 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:
> (In reply to thomasfoote) Sorry im not trolling.
>
> I dont like the whole ethos of coaching, i feel it is the role of an instructor to give the client the safe supportive environment for them to discover climbing for themselves rather than to quantify and analyse technique and movement. I remember talking to a old guide who refered to the privelidge of showing his guests new things in the mountains. This ethos sits a lot more comfortably with what i feel climbing is to the majority of us.

Showing people new things, if by "showing his guests new things" you teaching them skills then that is exactly what coaching is.

Coaching isn't a problem commercialisation may be a problem and your "old guide" is a big part of that problem!
 Fraser 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:

Coaching is only a facility for those who wish to obtain such a service. It's not compulsory.
 Justin T 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:

Climbing has over the past few decades become a much broader church. Climbing walls for their own sake not just for training, competition climbing, many more specialisms that open up new and accessible possibilities for many people.

That doesn't, however, take anything away from the adventure, ethics or any other aspect of the traditional branches. There are enough hard, dangerous, adventure routes being put up by those operating independently to confirm that.

The BMC has a finger in every diverse aspect of this and appears to be trying to support ALL participants, in my opinion, fairly. While you may bemoan them for focussing on coaching young indoor talent they are still providing grants, for example, for adventurous alpine first ascents.

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=3454

The existance of the CWA does not need to concern you. The more "homogenised wall climbers" out (or in) there, the less at the crag polishing the holds and wearing the gear placements.
OP muppetfilter 08 Jan 2010
In reply to john arran: I would say that my primary concern is the BMC a gouverning body representing us all is becoming polarised. The structuring of indoor coaching for performance maybe looses some of the most valuable lessons to the individual that climbing can offer. There is nothing more rewarding as you will know than the grin someone gives you when they work something out for themselves.

I have to say even when im doing it wrong .. Im still out there doing it and loving every minute...

By overly regimenting climbing we are cutting off the wealth of other lessons and rich experiences it has to offer as an activity.
I worry that there will be a generation introduced without an apreciation of history or ethics. If it is packaged as "X-treme or "adventure" it isnt true to the heart and soul of such a diverse activity.

Another argument is that there will always be those of us that once bitten by the bug will chase climbing insatiably , regardless of logbooks or badges or schemes. Mums washing line and a pair of converse allstars.. :0)
 Chris the Tall 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:
Just to let you know the NICAS scheme was not dreamt up, and is not managed, by the BMC. It came from the ABC. So the cynics would say it was just a way for them to sell courses. But lets face it, parents who know little or nothing about climbing will see a dangerous sport and expect to see some safeguards, structures, progression in place before they hand over their kids.

The BMC does endorse the NICAS scheme - the national council approved it a couple of years ago and I was impressed by the fact that it did include stuff on the history of climbing and progression to outdoors.

So every now and then someone like yourself comes along and claims we're are all going to hell in a handcart. That soon every crag will be bolted, you'll need a certificate and insurance to go on the crags and written permision from Dave Turnball to climb anything over E5

Has anyone mentioned "Broad Church" yet ?
 timjones 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:
> (In reply to john arran) I would say that my primary concern is the BMC a gouverning body representing us all is becoming polarised. The structuring of indoor coaching for performance maybe looses some of the most valuable lessons to the individual that climbing can offer. There is nothing more rewarding as you will know than the grin someone gives you when they work something out for themselves.

Good coaching is about helping people work it out rather than telling them how to do it IMO.
OP muppetfilter 08 Jan 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall: I have had first hand knowledge over the last 6 months of a Sheffield based outfit that has had people delivering the NICAS without qualifications to instruct and being paid cash in hand while the courses are run at the Foundry. One of the individuals running the course had not been climbing themselves for more than 2 months ....

Handcart.... you tell me, not very well regulated in my book !!
 Chris the Tall 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:
So are you now suggesting there should be tighter regulation ?
OP muppetfilter 08 Jan 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall: Regulate the people working with children.. absolutely.


Standardise and regulate the introduction of climbing into a sylabus..NO.

Its inherently an activity of freedom and choice.
 scott titt 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:

I have had first hand knowledge over the last 6 months of a Sheffield based outfit that has had people delivering the NICAS without qualifications to instruct and being paid cash in hand while the courses are run at the Foundry. One of the individuals running the course had not been climbing themselves for more than 2 months ....
>
Then do something about it! Go to the ABC http://www.abcclimbingwalls.co.uk/ (the owners of the scheme)and tell them what you know; it will be more effective than waiting 6 months and then complaining about the BMC who have nothing to do with the scheme. Nor do the BMC have a lot to do with the CWA, that is a MLTUK award!

As for the "cash in hand" here is the link to report it to HMRC, it really is that easy to act rather than moan.... http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/tax-evasion/index.htm
 Chris the Tall 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:
I think that is precisely what the NICAS scheme is trying to do, but at no stage is anyone saying that this is the only way into climbing, or that you must have this award before you can go on to do something else.
Would any wall say that they would only allow people to climb there if they had this award - no, they'd have no customers

Its there for people you want it

And as someone who came into climbing via the classic method of starting of with fell-walking, leading it to getting dragged up a cold/wet route, scareing myself silly at black rocks etc, I don't think there's anything wrong with people learning the basics of movement indoor. I'm just jealous that I didn't have that opportunity.

And I wish I hadn't waited for 15 yearsbefore I got some professional coaching - it made a huge difference both to my performance and my enjoyment of climbing
 john arran 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:
> There is nothing more rewarding as you will know than the grin someone gives you when they work something out for themselves.

I know. I've seen that grin often ...




... when I've been coaching!


It may help to view it as targeted, accelerated learning rather than being handed stuff on a plate.

And as for there being inexperienced, unqualified 'coaches' out there working with young people, that may well be the case. But surely it would be better to focus on improving the standard of coaching provision (which doesn't have to mean increased regulation and yet more qualifications) rather than throwing out all the positives of coaching simply because there may be a few people abusing the system.
 nikinko 08 Jan 2010
In reply to AlisonS:

> It isn't:
> mentoring - passing knowledge or expertise from an "expert" to a "novice".
> directive - giving advice, telling someone what they should do or solving their problems for them

true in that context. I'm not sure this applies to sports coaching though? Surely a sports coach would be a little bit more directive?
 Oceanrower 08 Jan 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to muppetfilter)
>you'll need a certificate and insurance to go on the crags and written permision from Dave Turnball to climb anything over E5
>

Cheddar Gorge south side?
 Mark Reeves Global Crag Moderator 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter: I personally think that you are confusing an instructional qualification CWA, which I would admit is a poor award, considering that the SPA wasn't exactly difficult to achieve. With the BMC and MLTUK move towards Coach Awards.

The Coaching awards are intended to run in conjunction with the current awards, and cover a host of skills that even the MIA (currently the highest rock climbing only qualification in the UK) doesn't cover. I wrote a piece on my blog about the 'Coaching Process', that was subsequently used by the MLTUK to illustrate the coaching process.

http://climbingcoach.blogspot.com/2009/04/coaching-new-buzz-word-but-what-d...
(The MLTUK copy of the article is down on there website)

The great thing with climbing and the BMC is they are only trying to offer some kind of standardisation to coaching. As currently there is no way to recognise good coaching. What tends to happen is 'celebrity' coaches get the business.

They great thing with this system if you don't want to engage with a coach as a climber then you don't have to, and the same is true of instructors and exsisting coaches.
 Rich Guest 08 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:
> I cant help but notice the way the BMC has taken on a "professional coaching" mentality.
> I cant help but feel sad as it seems to be moving away from the ethos of climbing as a freedom activity. Rules regulations NICAS sheets and ticked boxes seem alien to the concept of going out and doing it for yourself. The rich history and ethics are eradicated by scientific coaching stratergys and taught technique to create automatons and homogenised wall climbers.The sheer lack of depth to the CWA is testament to this, having seen two people pass this who couldnt even set up a belay system with ropes!!!
> For most of us our introduction to climbing probably an experience that sparked a passion and hunger to get out and do more.Not a regulated delivered coaching framework pushing for improvement but an activity in life that offers freedom and choice for self determination to take in any direction that pays back in so many different ways.

There's currently nothing stopping anyone from going out and learning to climb whatever way they want, in any way they want, from whomever they want and wherever they want. Is there?

By themselves
Through a mate
In a club
By taking a course
Experimentation
Daftness
Naivity
Trial and error
Learning 'the hard way'
From an expert
From a complete idiot
From a novice
From someone who climbs hard
From a book
From their Dad

So I don't understand where there might be a loss of freedom and choice, regardless of any initiative the BMC adopts.

OP muppetfilter 08 Jan 2010
In reply to Mark Reeves: Absolutely there are two threads, the lack of depth of knowledge required to easily obtain the CWA and how quickly one can be introducing climbing to others with little or no experience.

And the move towards coaching as the promoted method of introducing climbing, celebrity coaching is a phenomenon that has surfaced in recent years.

To be honest good on you if you want a few days with one of your hero's they climb hard and have a good idea what it takes to perform so why not?

The idea of a small number of individuals deciding what is a relevent stratergy i find alien to climbing... 15 years ago i sat in the pub with Ken Wilson ranting about how climbing would become comercialised and regimented and i guess he was right.

I wonder why there has to be a push to make climbing a mainstream activity to be promoted and further comercialised... To who's benefit?


 timjones 09 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:
> (In reply to Mark Reeves) Absolutely there are two threads, the lack of depth of knowledge required to easily obtain the CWA and how quickly one can be introducing climbing to others with little or no experience.
>
> And the move towards coaching as the promoted method of introducing climbing, celebrity coaching is a phenomenon that has surfaced in recent years.
>
> To be honest good on you if you want a few days with one of your hero's they climb hard and have a good idea what it takes to perform so why not?
>
> The idea of a small number of individuals deciding what is a relevent stratergy i find alien to climbing... 15 years ago i sat in the pub with Ken Wilson ranting about how climbing would become comercialised and regimented and i guess he was right.
>
> I wonder why there has to be a push to make climbing a mainstream activity to be promoted and further comercialised... To who's benefit?

I'm not sure that the BMC, MLTUK etc are promoting a major push to increase
participation and commercialisation. The reality is that with a rise in the number and quality of indoor walls, more pro instructors and the ease of gathering info from sites such as UKC there is a significant rise on people trying climbing. At that point I suspect it is in all of our interests to ensure the novice/beginner climber has access to a good safe intro to our sport. Would you care to hazard a guess at the consequences of a rise in injuries, along with an increase in the number of folks who had a poor intro and percieve climbing as a crap sport?

I may be wrong but I think that the BMC are responding to this need rather than creating it. I would like to see them doing a lot more to make it possible for more good experienced volunteers to achieve higher awards and operate schemes such as NICAS in order to curb the influence of the commercialcommercial operations. I also feel that whatever level instructors are operating at a greater focus on coaching along with the safety aspects is a good thing. If anyone is introducing others to climbing with no element of coaching then they should be doing something more useful like stacking shelves in Tesco IMO!
 Mark Reeves Global Crag Moderator 09 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter: With regards the coaching Muppet.

I am an outdoor instructor, and since there was no climbing based course for me to inprove my coaching skills, I turned to mainstream education, and have just completed an MSc in Applied Sport Science.

I did it because just as I like to climb as well as possible, I also want to be the best instructor I can be. I guess in any other profession it would be Continuing Professional develop. To you I am obvious a commercial sell out.
OP muppetfilter 09 Jan 2010
In reply to Mark Reeves: The thing about being the best instructor you can be Mark you will obvioudly realise is that climbing is a great tool when working on a wode variety of aspects of learning. Just concentrating on the physical aspect of climbing the LTAD "Long Term Athlete development" is blinkered to all the other benefits that can be delivered. Obsessing about physical performance and achievement is utterly alien to an activity so geared to the indivduals own personal experience.It doesnt matter how well you climb , it matters what you get out of it on a personal level. Climbing shouldnt be disected into sports science...Should we turn climbing into a regimented activity.... NO. Climbing is whatever you want it to be, bouldering on a 60's concrete wall to an 8,000 meter mountain.
Anarchic and free.

(you only needed an E at a-level to get onto a sports science course at my Uni)
 UKB Shark 09 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter: Obsessing about physical performance and achievement is utterly alien to an activity so geared to the indivduals own personal experience.It doesnt matter how well you climb


Speak for yourself
 Rich Guest 09 Jan 2010
In reply to muppetfilter:
> (In reply to Mark Reeves) The thing about being the best instructor you can be Mark you will obvioudly realise is that climbing is a great tool when working on a wode variety of aspects of learning. Just concentrating on the physical aspect of climbing the LTAD "Long Term Athlete development" is blinkered to all the other benefits that can be delivered. Obsessing about physical performance and achievement is utterly alien to an activity so geared to the indivduals own personal experience.It doesnt matter how well you climb , it matters what you get out of it on a personal level. Climbing shouldnt be disected into sports science...Should we turn climbing into a regimented activity.... NO. Climbing is whatever you want it to be, bouldering on a 60's concrete wall to an 8,000 meter mountain.
> Anarchic and free.
>
> (you only needed an E at a-level to get onto a sports science course at my Uni)

What the f*ck are you on about?
The level of confusion as to what you're driving at and what your point is... is mind boggling!
lamsterblane 11 Jan 2010
In reply to john arran:
John
You're quite obviously wrong to assert that the ancient English tradition of Amateurism still has any traction in sport today. Football, golf, tennis, just to name three sports, are beladen with managers, coaches, and trainers, and nobody manifests the slightest chagrin at the situation.

Sadly for people who want to live off climbing such functions offer thin pickings in our sport. The reasons are pretty obvious – when a [match-based] sport becomes big business offering ridiculous rewards to the top participants, any potential competitive advantage can mean serious money for the professional. The amateur will want to win the match too, and maybe a little training/coaching will help.

But there's not much money in climbing, and except for competitions it isn't match-based, is it? Outside the elite, climbers do it mainly for the experience, learning informally from each other, their own introspections, possibly books, and any competitiveness is largely with themselves. Doesn't buying expertise start to give the experience a calculating edge?

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