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I was climbing at pot scar today trying to battle my way up a HVS at about 30 feet I couldn’t figure out the next sequence and ended up slumping on the rope. At this point the nut I put in which I thought was bomber, popped and I fell about 4 feet to my previous bit of gear which also popped, and then the next bit went and I hit the floor. Unbelievably (to me) I walked away with a few cuts and bruises and a bit of rope burn.
It was particularly scary as I didn’t really have time to realise what was happening until I hit the floor, but I got really angry with myself that my gear all ripped when I thought it was good.
The point of my story is that I haven’t been climbing long (leading maybe 8 months)and come from a background of indoor climbing as many do. I believe that this led to a situation where my ability to climb was not matched by my ability to judge gear placements etc. I didn't spend long enough consolidating at each grade and really taking time to "learn" what bomber gear really is. Fortunately I was lucky but it could have easily gone the other way.
I just wanted to share the experience as a word of caution to other climbers in a similar learning curve to me that it really makes sense not to try and rush through the grades and become fixated with the grade(as I maybe have lately) and spend time getting to basics right, it might save you hitting the ground!
Cheers G
It was particularly scary as I didn’t really have time to realise what was happening until I hit the floor, but I got really angry with myself that my gear all ripped when I thought it was good.
The point of my story is that I haven’t been climbing long (leading maybe 8 months)and come from a background of indoor climbing as many do. I believe that this led to a situation where my ability to climb was not matched by my ability to judge gear placements etc. I didn't spend long enough consolidating at each grade and really taking time to "learn" what bomber gear really is. Fortunately I was lucky but it could have easily gone the other way.
I just wanted to share the experience as a word of caution to other climbers in a similar learning curve to me that it really makes sense not to try and rush through the grades and become fixated with the grade(as I maybe have lately) and spend time getting to basics right, it might save you hitting the ground!
Cheers G
In reply to gcandlin: Thanks for sharing and glad you are ok. Sounds like a very educational experience. Nothing like a fall to learn about gear placements.
In reply to gcandlin: Glad you got away with relatively unscathed and have learned from your mistake. I think it 's a pretty common problem unfortunately, and you are lucky it happened now rather than further down the line with potentially worse circumstances. It may feel newbieish, but if you have time on your own, worth going to a crag with a rack and just practicing placing gear at ground level, clipping in and weighting it to see what happens. Helmet and safety goggles advised in case it goes!!
In reply to gcandlin: At the very same crag I learnt that cams on wet limestone don't work. (but my nut did). I knew it was not good and could not get it right or back out, so decided to come down. At which point it did pop! but my nut on the other rope held so well, it's probably still in there.
Then spent some time playing with cam placement at ground level, and didn't bother taking them up again.
I'm pleased that you learnt this with only minor pain obviously. For me it was pleasing to know I had read my placements well.
As I have a mate who died having slipped whilst walking back to camp, never be complacement about the risks and your ability but keep explorng!
Then spent some time playing with cam placement at ground level, and didn't bother taking them up again.
I'm pleased that you learnt this with only minor pain obviously. For me it was pleasing to know I had read my placements well.
As I have a mate who died having slipped whilst walking back to camp, never be complacement about the risks and your ability but keep explorng!
In reply to gcandlin: glad you're OK... But at least you recognised what's gone wrong, sounds like you're spot on. Good luck going back to basics!
In reply to gcandlin:
Glad you're OK and a gutsy post recognising a mistake you'd made. Know any trad climbers who have fallen on good gear that you can second for a while to get a feel for good placements?
Glad you're OK and a gutsy post recognising a mistake you'd made. Know any trad climbers who have fallen on good gear that you can second for a while to get a feel for good placements?
In reply to gcandlin:
Limestone is just very difficult to place gear on...
(As has been mentioned above) cams are less reliable in parallel sided cracks.
The rock is more likely to break than on grit or igneous rock.
The routes are more likely to have overhangs which can contribute to gear lifting out if you weight the top runner (were you climbing on double ropes?).
I pretty much learnt all of the above the hard way.
Experience in placing gear obviously helps, but the only real solution is not to fall off!
Limestone is just very difficult to place gear on...
(As has been mentioned above) cams are less reliable in parallel sided cracks.
The rock is more likely to break than on grit or igneous rock.
The routes are more likely to have overhangs which can contribute to gear lifting out if you weight the top runner (were you climbing on double ropes?).
I pretty much learnt all of the above the hard way.
Experience in placing gear obviously helps, but the only real solution is not to fall off!
In reply to gcandlin:
A scary experience but at least you've learnt from it! Limestone is deceptive---a friend once rested on two well placed cams on Windy Ledge and they both just slid out and he decked!
Cams work by transferring energy into friction (basically---please don't pull me up on the exact physics/mathematics of that---that's how the mathematician who invented Friends explained it!). In a low friction rock like limestone this process is less effective. Priming them by tugging on them before moving on (with a good hold for your other hand!) seems to help a bit.
I suppose this shows the value of what used to be called an Ogwen apprenticeship (sort of jokingly by the early eighties when I was going through this stage, but the principal was still the same) where you go out day after day in any weather, climbing routes where you're not struggling with the moves and where you learn to place gear really well so that when you do move on to a route with harder moves you're cofident with gear placements.
A scary experience but at least you've learnt from it! Limestone is deceptive---a friend once rested on two well placed cams on Windy Ledge and they both just slid out and he decked!
Cams work by transferring energy into friction (basically---please don't pull me up on the exact physics/mathematics of that---that's how the mathematician who invented Friends explained it!). In a low friction rock like limestone this process is less effective. Priming them by tugging on them before moving on (with a good hold for your other hand!) seems to help a bit.
I suppose this shows the value of what used to be called an Ogwen apprenticeship (sort of jokingly by the early eighties when I was going through this stage, but the principal was still the same) where you go out day after day in any weather, climbing routes where you're not struggling with the moves and where you learn to place gear really well so that when you do move on to a route with harder moves you're cofident with gear placements.
In reply to gcandlin: Thanks for your openness and glad you are OK
In reply to gcandlin: but there more reliable that any nut placements youll get in parralel cracks (none)
In reply to gcandlin: I had a very similar experience when i first started climbing 4 years ago. I think in the long run its done me a lot of good.
In reply to Offwidth:
That is an absolute cracker!!
Enty
> (In reply to Oceanic)
>
> "cams are less reliable in parallel sided cracks" wonderful!!!
>
> "cams are less reliable in parallel sided cracks" wonderful!!!
That is an absolute cracker!!
Enty
In reply to gcandlin:
Top man for taking a step back and looking at what went wrong.
There are many people in your position and many of those seem oblivious to how good or bad their gear may be - just pop up to Stanage Popular on a busy weekend and theres bound to be a few examples.
The main thing is you're ok.
Good recommendations in getting yourself out on a quiet afternoon and just placing / testing gear, it'll help give an idea of whats good and whats not.
Hope it hasnt put you off and that you get out and have some good climbing soon.
Top man for taking a step back and looking at what went wrong.
There are many people in your position and many of those seem oblivious to how good or bad their gear may be - just pop up to Stanage Popular on a busy weekend and theres bound to be a few examples.
The main thing is you're ok.
Good recommendations in getting yourself out on a quiet afternoon and just placing / testing gear, it'll help give an idea of whats good and whats not.
Hope it hasnt put you off and that you get out and have some good climbing soon.
In reply to joem:
No, a properly placed hex is as good as, if not better than cams in a parallel crack.
> (In reply to gcandlin) but there more reliable that any nut placements youll get in parralel cracks (none)
No, a properly placed hex is as good as, if not better than cams in a parallel crack.
In reply to Oceanic: It's just the usual case of people on UKC, reading what they want to read.
To the OP, limestone gear is an art. I'd perhaps 'return to basics' for Limestone but i would try not to let an event like this dent your confidence too much. Consolidation at grades is a good idea, mind you.
To the OP, limestone gear is an art. I'd perhaps 'return to basics' for Limestone but i would try not to let an event like this dent your confidence too much. Consolidation at grades is a good idea, mind you.
In reply to gcandlin:
You got away lucky falling from that height, could have been quite a bit worse. Dont let it put you off though, just stay safe in the future!
You got away lucky falling from that height, could have been quite a bit worse. Dont let it put you off though, just stay safe in the future!
In reply to Oceanic:
seems eminently obvious what you meant to me, the whole list is relating to limestone versus other rocks, right?
seems eminently obvious what you meant to me, the whole list is relating to limestone versus other rocks, right?
In reply to gcandlin: Thanks for all the helpfull advice guys, on reflection I think where I went wrong is I tested the nuts for a downward force but the reality of the fall generated more of an outward force, something to bear in mind. Also I placed them behind a flake (substantial but still a flake)and I suspect that under the force it may have expanded slightly thus letting my nuts rip easily.
I must admit that as other have said I do find judging gear in limestone much more tricky that Grit where I started out on. Luckily it hasn't dented my confidence to badly, I am trying to look at it as a positive learning experience that will make me a more competant climber in the long run. It was my first proper fall!
might give that sport climbing thingy a go
I must admit that as other have said I do find judging gear in limestone much more tricky that Grit where I started out on. Luckily it hasn't dented my confidence to badly, I am trying to look at it as a positive learning experience that will make me a more competant climber in the long run. It was my first proper fall!
might give that sport climbing thingy a go
In reply to gcandlin:
A lucky escape!
I know of several incidents where people have come to grief at Pot Scar over my years living near the Dales...
My comment in addition to the above is that popular limestone routes suffer from trashed placements as much as polished holds... to that end a large variety of different nut types is invaluable, especially WildCountry 'Superlights' that can be the only type to fit in very worn placements.
PP.
A lucky escape!
I know of several incidents where people have come to grief at Pot Scar over my years living near the Dales...
My comment in addition to the above is that popular limestone routes suffer from trashed placements as much as polished holds... to that end a large variety of different nut types is invaluable, especially WildCountry 'Superlights' that can be the only type to fit in very worn placements.
PP.
In reply to pog100:
Yes thanks, that is what I meant.
> (In reply to Oceanic)
>
> the whole list is relating to limestone versus other rocks, right?
>
> the whole list is relating to limestone versus other rocks, right?
Yes thanks, that is what I meant.
In reply to gcandlin:
One thing to take from it is your gear was well enough placed to slow you down enough that you hit the ground without damage.
Great post btw. Good points well made.
One thing to take from it is your gear was well enough placed to slow you down enough that you hit the ground without damage.
Great post btw. Good points well made.
In reply to Fredt: oh right i can see how a hex could work, using a camming motion, but ive never found a perfectly paralel crack to try it in i only have one fixed stem friend in my rack so im heavally relient on hex's is it only in flared placements that friends work but hexes dont?
In reply to Offwidth:
Lighten up. You were a beginner once.
> >
> "cams are less reliable in parallel sided cracks" wonderful!!!
> "cams are less reliable in parallel sided cracks" wonderful!!!
Lighten up. You were a beginner once.
In reply to gcandlin:
I've never climbed on limestone, so I ask: what about tri-cams? Anybody used them on Limestone? How did they work?
I've never climbed on limestone, so I ask: what about tri-cams? Anybody used them on Limestone? How did they work?
In reply to almost sane: I find Tricams and Superlight rocks are very effective on Limestone.
In reply to gcandlin:
Excellent, courageous post.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned in your post or elsewhere on the thread is your second. It might be worth thinking about the effect of his/her position relative to the first piece of gear, as often the top piece holds and the lower piece(s) are subjected to an outward / upward pull from the resulting tight rope, which can unzip the rest of the gear.
Excellent, courageous post.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned in your post or elsewhere on the thread is your second. It might be worth thinking about the effect of his/her position relative to the first piece of gear, as often the top piece holds and the lower piece(s) are subjected to an outward / upward pull from the resulting tight rope, which can unzip the rest of the gear.
In reply to 999thAndy: The nature of the base of the route meant that he was a fair way back from the crag, I put a directional cam in near the base to try and prevent the unzipping effect (learnt this the hard way previously)
In reply to gcandlin:
Lot's of people don't think about placing a piece to protect the rest, so well done. Again, it sounds to me like you're going about things in the right way.
Lot's of people don't think about placing a piece to protect the rest, so well done. Again, it sounds to me like you're going about things in the right way.
In reply to gcandlin:
Nooooo, stick with Trad! Geez you'll mention bouldering next!
Great post btw, I have a cracking scar on my wrist where I learnt a similar lesson. Glad you were able to dust yourself off and walk away.
>
> might give that sport climbing thingy a go
> might give that sport climbing thingy a go
Nooooo, stick with Trad! Geez you'll mention bouldering next!
Great post btw, I have a cracking scar on my wrist where I learnt a similar lesson. Glad you were able to dust yourself off and walk away.
In reply to gcandlin: I prefer leading with 9mm rope on limestone, less impact on the gear but don't underestimate how much stretch there can be.
In reply to gcandlin: The BMC publishes a free booklet called Climbing Outside. It is aimed at climbers like you, who are heading outside from the climbing wall. It includes information on placing gear and building belays.
You can download it here: http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=17
Alternatively, drop me an email and I'll post you a copy: jon@thebmc.co.uk
You can download it here: http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=17
Alternatively, drop me an email and I'll post you a copy: jon@thebmc.co.uk
In reply to gcandlin: Firstly glad you survived, just make sure it doesn't hold you back. Take from it the valuable lesson you have posted about and get on with it because these sorts of things can and will affect your psyche and the only way round it is to pick up the batton and keep running.
I do find it odd/interesting that people seem genuinely more perturbed by Limestone, by cams in limestone, by cams, by flakes breaking etc.
I do 90% of my climbing on Lime, and can genuinely say that I have never had a cam pop on me, or a nut, or a flake break since I started climbing on the stuff in 1996. Surely this has to do with learning to read rock, understanding how to place gear so that it cannot come out whenever possible, what constitutes good placements and learning to continually assess your placements. It is simply not as simple as "Cams+limestone = bad". Gear is only as good as the person placing it - if you are not very experienced at placing it then you need to make sure that you take your time and play with different equipment at ground level so that you can begin to understand it's limits. Bounce testing is one good way of doing this - place gear and then jump up and down on it with a sling... once you've fallen on you ass a few times you will soon learn
I do find it odd/interesting that people seem genuinely more perturbed by Limestone, by cams in limestone, by cams, by flakes breaking etc.
I do 90% of my climbing on Lime, and can genuinely say that I have never had a cam pop on me, or a nut, or a flake break since I started climbing on the stuff in 1996. Surely this has to do with learning to read rock, understanding how to place gear so that it cannot come out whenever possible, what constitutes good placements and learning to continually assess your placements. It is simply not as simple as "Cams+limestone = bad". Gear is only as good as the person placing it - if you are not very experienced at placing it then you need to make sure that you take your time and play with different equipment at ground level so that you can begin to understand it's limits. Bounce testing is one good way of doing this - place gear and then jump up and down on it with a sling... once you've fallen on you ass a few times you will soon learn
In reply to gcandlin:
Any chance that a sling around the flake would have been possible?
I'm aware of unzipping and try to place gear that will take a bit of an outward pull but I've not deliberately placed a bit of gear primarily for a possible horizontal pull at the bottom - good idea that.
> Also I placed them behind a flake (substantial but still a flake)and I suspect that under the force it may have expanded slightly thus letting my nuts rip easily.
Any chance that a sling around the flake would have been possible?
I'm aware of unzipping and try to place gear that will take a bit of an outward pull but I've not deliberately placed a bit of gear primarily for a possible horizontal pull at the bottom - good idea that.
In reply to gcandlin:
when I first learnt to place gear, I went on a course (def reccomend it) and heard the phrase, climbing is like eating pringles, once you pop, you dont stop.
Which seems to be what you learnt. one thing it didnt teach me was what to do in situation like at Red Wall in Pembrokshire where the belay stance can be (due to tide) above the first bit of gear palcement, so the rope pulls it up - the pro was bomber in a downwards motion, but not upwards.
which meant, as I was climbing each time a new piece of gear went in, the bit before came out - thankfully, my belayer didnt tell me this (it was 01.00hrs and it woulda made me v nervous) and I managed to go up the route nicely.
but glad you ok, ive fallen a similar height and decked it but i was soloing on rubbish rock at the time (my own stupid fault for climbing on rock that crumbled in fingers) and that hurt! so I share your pain, I too was very suprised I managed to walk off and carry on to Penzance (this happened half way between Penzance and Lands End at end of day 1 - lovely walk def reccomend it!)
when I first learnt to place gear, I went on a course (def reccomend it) and heard the phrase, climbing is like eating pringles, once you pop, you dont stop.
Which seems to be what you learnt. one thing it didnt teach me was what to do in situation like at Red Wall in Pembrokshire where the belay stance can be (due to tide) above the first bit of gear palcement, so the rope pulls it up - the pro was bomber in a downwards motion, but not upwards.
which meant, as I was climbing each time a new piece of gear went in, the bit before came out - thankfully, my belayer didnt tell me this (it was 01.00hrs and it woulda made me v nervous) and I managed to go up the route nicely.
but glad you ok, ive fallen a similar height and decked it but i was soloing on rubbish rock at the time (my own stupid fault for climbing on rock that crumbled in fingers) and that hurt! so I share your pain, I too was very suprised I managed to walk off and carry on to Penzance (this happened half way between Penzance and Lands End at end of day 1 - lovely walk def reccomend it!)
In reply to Gandalf:
Place a good cam low in the crack pointing towards the second man - job sorted.
Chris
>
> Which seems to be what you learnt. one thing it didnt teach me was what to do in situation like at Red Wall in Pembrokshire where the belay stance can be (due to tide) above the first bit of gear palcement, so the rope pulls it up - the pro was bomber in a downwards motion, but not upwards.
>
> which meant, as I was climbing each time a new piece of gear went in, the bit before came out - thankfully, my belayer didnt tell me this (it was 01.00hrs and it woulda made me v nervous) and I managed to go up the route nicely.
>
> Which seems to be what you learnt. one thing it didnt teach me was what to do in situation like at Red Wall in Pembrokshire where the belay stance can be (due to tide) above the first bit of gear palcement, so the rope pulls it up - the pro was bomber in a downwards motion, but not upwards.
>
> which meant, as I was climbing each time a new piece of gear went in, the bit before came out - thankfully, my belayer didnt tell me this (it was 01.00hrs and it woulda made me v nervous) and I managed to go up the route nicely.
>
Place a good cam low in the crack pointing towards the second man - job sorted.
Chris
In reply to gcandlin:
Glad you're ok. Something you might want to consider doing is aiding up some free or A1 route. It will force you to make a lot of placements, and since you will load all of them, you will get an idea of how good your gear really is. The only caveat is that you'll only load them with bodyweight, so it doesn't actually guarantee that they would hold a fall.
Basically, it's a way to quickly gain mileage in gear placement (plus it can also be fun).
Glad you're ok. Something you might want to consider doing is aiding up some free or A1 route. It will force you to make a lot of placements, and since you will load all of them, you will get an idea of how good your gear really is. The only caveat is that you'll only load them with bodyweight, so it doesn't actually guarantee that they would hold a fall.
Basically, it's a way to quickly gain mileage in gear placement (plus it can also be fun).
In reply to Alex Buisse:
Also worth rembering how liable gear is to pulling out horizontally in a fall, so what may have seemed a good vertical, pull-down placement may come out when outwards forces come into play.
Also worth rembering how liable gear is to pulling out horizontally in a fall, so what may have seemed a good vertical, pull-down placement may come out when outwards forces come into play.
In reply to Pekkie:
Lighten up? I thought I was being light hearted pointing out how lovely that phrase was, but I should have put a smiley on it I guess Oceanic a beginner?? Read his profile.
In reply to Oceanic
Not meaning to get at you. I often say things that with hindsight don't come out the way I intended... we all do. Cams were of course designed to be optimial in parallel sided cracks.
Lighten up? I thought I was being light hearted pointing out how lovely that phrase was, but I should have put a smiley on it I guess Oceanic a beginner?? Read his profile.
In reply to Oceanic
Not meaning to get at you. I often say things that with hindsight don't come out the way I intended... we all do. Cams were of course designed to be optimial in parallel sided cracks.
In reply to Alex Buisse:
Hmmm good idea may find somewhere quite to practice that.
> (In reply to gcandlin)
>
> Glad you're ok. Something you might want to consider doing is aiding up some free or A1 route. It will force you to make a lot of placements, and since you will load all of them, you will get an idea of how good your gear really is.
>
> Glad you're ok. Something you might want to consider doing is aiding up some free or A1 route. It will force you to make a lot of placements, and since you will load all of them, you will get an idea of how good your gear really is.
Hmmm good idea may find somewhere quite to practice that.
In reply to gcandlin: I imagine myself in a similar situation, but very rarely venture outdoors unless with a guide or experienced leader.
>"learn" what bomber gear really is
I have a problem learning what constitutes a hold.
mh
>"learn" what bomber gear really is
I have a problem learning what constitutes a hold.
mh
In reply to gcandlin:
what!!! You can hit the ground whilst climbing, why didn't anyone ever tell me this before. Thanks to the op for bringing this to my attention. Hope you get back out to some hard crushing again soon.
when I teach people how to place gear I use the 1-10 bomber scale, with 1 being no more than eye candy, 10 being so good that it ain't going anywhere in a million years and 5 should hold a fall but you don't really want to test it. May also be worth your while to think about where your belayer was standing and the length of extenders on your gear(what was the rope drag like?)
Best of luck
what!!! You can hit the ground whilst climbing, why didn't anyone ever tell me this before. Thanks to the op for bringing this to my attention. Hope you get back out to some hard crushing again soon.
when I teach people how to place gear I use the 1-10 bomber scale, with 1 being no more than eye candy, 10 being so good that it ain't going anywhere in a million years and 5 should hold a fall but you don't really want to test it. May also be worth your while to think about where your belayer was standing and the length of extenders on your gear(what was the rope drag like?)
Best of luck
In reply to Offwidth:
Yep - sorry for any offence - that's why I nearly fell off my chair too.
Enty
> In reply to Oceanic
>
> Not meaning to get at you. I often say things that with hindsight don't come out the way I intended... we all do. Cams were of course designed to be optimial in parallel sided cracks.
>
> Not meaning to get at you. I often say things that with hindsight don't come out the way I intended... we all do. Cams were of course designed to be optimial in parallel sided cracks.
Yep - sorry for any offence - that's why I nearly fell off my chair too.
Enty
In reply to gcandlin:
Yeah, I got off pretty lightly last year on Derwent edge, when I thought 'surely it'll be ok to put a cam behind this THICK flake they must only be talking about thin ones when they say never do it - it'll never happen to me' it opened and closed like a book - Thank God it didn't do a right unconquerable!
Luckily for me, the bit of gear below meant the rope was nearing the end of its stretch when I decked.
Yeah, I got off pretty lightly last year on Derwent edge, when I thought 'surely it'll be ok to put a cam behind this THICK flake they must only be talking about thin ones when they say never do it - it'll never happen to me' it opened and closed like a book - Thank God it didn't do a right unconquerable!
Luckily for me, the bit of gear below meant the rope was nearing the end of its stretch when I decked.
In reply to gcandlin: I'm happy you came out of this in one piece. I am always having this discussion with friends who go out trad climbing and get onto E1 and above because they can climb F7A and above inside, fairenough they can climb the trad route itself but are terrible at placing gear. I myself spent 1 year on VS routes and then another year on HVS before going into my first E grade. All to train myself for good gear placement.
I hope this doesn't discourage you from further Trad adventures
I hope this doesn't discourage you from further Trad adventures
In reply to The third:
Interesting but I'm curious, how do you actually differentiate? I really struggle to differentiate placements beyond: Perfect, Good enough, Questionable and Worthless. Worthless not being something I'd bother with so only really 3 levels of trustworthiness. I can't imagine how I'd go about rating gear meaningfully on a 1-10 scale.
jk
> when I teach people how to place gear I use the 1-10 bomber scale, with 1 being no more than eye candy, 10 being so good that it ain't going anywhere in a million years and 5 should hold a fall but you don't really want to test it. May also be worth your while to think about where your belayer was standing and the length of extenders on your gear(what was the rope drag like?)
Interesting but I'm curious, how do you actually differentiate? I really struggle to differentiate placements beyond: Perfect, Good enough, Questionable and Worthless. Worthless not being something I'd bother with so only really 3 levels of trustworthiness. I can't imagine how I'd go about rating gear meaningfully on a 1-10 scale.
jk
In reply to jkarran:
Your probably right tbh, however I've always found people think better in simple concepts they already understand. I guess if you have two cams in a break for whatever reason and both are good placements however for whatever reason one looks like it may walk. Or equally you may have two nuts and one may have slightly less contact with rock or not really have a long enough extender. So I would say it isn't impossible to have a 1-10 continuous scale of gear quality, but basically you are right it doesn't matter too much. The only important thing is that you can look at a piece of gear, decide how good it is and use that piece of information to decide what to do next which is what I think that teaches people to do.
Your probably right tbh, however I've always found people think better in simple concepts they already understand. I guess if you have two cams in a break for whatever reason and both are good placements however for whatever reason one looks like it may walk. Or equally you may have two nuts and one may have slightly less contact with rock or not really have a long enough extender. So I would say it isn't impossible to have a 1-10 continuous scale of gear quality, but basically you are right it doesn't matter too much. The only important thing is that you can look at a piece of gear, decide how good it is and use that piece of information to decide what to do next which is what I think that teaches people to do.
In reply to jkarran:
Don't worry about him. Ewan's the biggest trad punter going. Getting his wallnuts stuck all over the show. Has to get old salts like me to sort him out.
Anyway, to the OP. Limestone is a bit tricky with the gear. Glad your OK though. Seriously consider checking other factors such as how far away your belayer was standing, whether you were using double ropes properly, how long your extenders were etc etc.
Don't worry about him. Ewan's the biggest trad punter going. Getting his wallnuts stuck all over the show. Has to get old salts like me to sort him out.
Anyway, to the OP. Limestone is a bit tricky with the gear. Glad your OK though. Seriously consider checking other factors such as how far away your belayer was standing, whether you were using double ropes properly, how long your extenders were etc etc.
In reply to gcandlin: Glad you are ok. It is funny really because I remember a period of about a year when I started climbing where most of my placements would ping out. I have also seen this in other beginner. I guess I was just lucky that I never fell in this time.
In reply to jkarran:
I use a 1 to 10 scale also - I can't possibly see how you can only use a 3 level scale. (Don't take that comment seriously but still I feel it is as applicable as yours)
Actually any scale for how good a bit of trad gear based on visual inspection and a bit of pulling, is not a science so its more based on a feeling about how good the gear is based on other gear you've placed before or seen placed. It doesn't have to be that accurate! But i would find a 3 point scale a little limiting.
For me a 10/10 bit of gear is a large nut in a crack slotted in such a way it really would be very hard for it to lift out. Most bits of gear I place are probably a 6-8 on the scale but it's always nice to get the 9's and 10's in, 5 or less is certainly getting dodgier but I've seen a 3/10 nut hold a slip before (small peanut only having contact on a single corner of the nut on each side of it)
Stevo
I use a 1 to 10 scale also - I can't possibly see how you can only use a 3 level scale. (Don't take that comment seriously but still I feel it is as applicable as yours)
Actually any scale for how good a bit of trad gear based on visual inspection and a bit of pulling, is not a science so its more based on a feeling about how good the gear is based on other gear you've placed before or seen placed. It doesn't have to be that accurate! But i would find a 3 point scale a little limiting.
For me a 10/10 bit of gear is a large nut in a crack slotted in such a way it really would be very hard for it to lift out. Most bits of gear I place are probably a 6-8 on the scale but it's always nice to get the 9's and 10's in, 5 or less is certainly getting dodgier but I've seen a 3/10 nut hold a slip before (small peanut only having contact on a single corner of the nut on each side of it)
Stevo
In reply to The third:
I see what you're saying but looking at those two cams to me it boils down to them being 'good enough' or 'questionable' individually and probably 'good enough' or 'perfect' as a cluster. Beyond that I'm wasting my time, that's all the info I need for the section ahead.
I suppose I can see merit in taking more time to assess and describe/quantify (to yourself and others) placements while you're learning in a low stress environment. It wasn't meant as a criticism, I just genuinely don't think I'd be able to put a meaningful number on how good a particular piece is.
jk
> Your probably right tbh, however I've always found people think better in simple concepts they already understand. I guess if you have two cams in a break for whatever reason and both are good placements however for whatever reason one looks like it may walk. Or equally you may have two nuts and one may have slightly less contact with rock or not really have a long enough extender. So I would say it isn't impossible to have a 1-10 continuous scale of gear quality, but basically you are right it doesn't matter too much. The only important thing is that you can look at a piece of gear, decide how good it is and use that piece of information to decide what to do next which is what I think that teaches people to do.
I see what you're saying but looking at those two cams to me it boils down to them being 'good enough' or 'questionable' individually and probably 'good enough' or 'perfect' as a cluster. Beyond that I'm wasting my time, that's all the info I need for the section ahead.
I suppose I can see merit in taking more time to assess and describe/quantify (to yourself and others) placements while you're learning in a low stress environment. It wasn't meant as a criticism, I just genuinely don't think I'd be able to put a meaningful number on how good a particular piece is.
jk
In reply to gcandlin:
Not sure if anyone's mentioned this but to the OP nuts are supposed to cam in. Which means you have to give them a tug. Did you do this? I normally give me nuts a good tug or 3 (ooh-err).
A stuck nut is the second's concern...
Not sure if anyone's mentioned this but to the OP nuts are supposed to cam in. Which means you have to give them a tug. Did you do this? I normally give me nuts a good tug or 3 (ooh-err).
A stuck nut is the second's concern...
In reply to Wilbur:
Well placed nuts barely need a tug. Onless the leader is rich the problem is only uniquly the second's concern if they are his nuts.
Well placed nuts barely need a tug. Onless the leader is rich the problem is only uniquly the second's concern if they are his nuts.
In reply to Offwidth:
Maybe so, and i don't wedge all of mine in, but modern nuts are designed to cam in a bit. they seat best when you give them a few good tugs in my experience. Especially important to do so if you're inexperienced and don't recognise a good placement or a bad placement as with this chap
> (In reply to Wilbur)
>
> Well placed nuts barely need a tug. Onless the leader is rich the problem is only uniquly the second's concern if they are his nuts.
>
> Well placed nuts barely need a tug. Onless the leader is rich the problem is only uniquly the second's concern if they are his nuts.
Maybe so, and i don't wedge all of mine in, but modern nuts are designed to cam in a bit. they seat best when you give them a few good tugs in my experience. Especially important to do so if you're inexperienced and don't recognise a good placement or a bad placement as with this chap
In reply to Offwidth:
Oh, and on your second point, of course that's true to a degree. But again if you're not sure what the placment is like on the sharp end wouldn't you rather lose a tenner than face the prospect of decking from 30 ft?
> (In reply to Wilbur)
>
> Well placed nuts barely need a tug. Onless the leader is rich the problem is only uniquly the second's concern if they are his nuts.
>
> Well placed nuts barely need a tug. Onless the leader is rich the problem is only uniquly the second's concern if they are his nuts.
Oh, and on your second point, of course that's true to a degree. But again if you're not sure what the placment is like on the sharp end wouldn't you rather lose a tenner than face the prospect of decking from 30 ft?
In reply to jkarran:
No offence took mate.
No offence took mate.
In reply to Wilbur:
I'd rather place the nut properly than seat it using excessive force. Everyone wins that way. Sometimes when overly yanking a nut it will come out and in your scenario you could be flying from 30feet where with more gentle treatment you would probably still be on the rock.
I'd rather place the nut properly than seat it using excessive force. Everyone wins that way. Sometimes when overly yanking a nut it will come out and in your scenario you could be flying from 30feet where with more gentle treatment you would probably still be on the rock.
In reply to Offwidth:
Common sense dictates that you hold on with your other hand to prevent that from happening! It's generally what I do...
> (In reply to Wilbur)
>
> I'd rather place the nut properly than seat it using excessive force. Everyone wins that way. Sometimes when overly yanking a nut it will come out and in your scenario you could be flying from 30feet where with more gentle treatment you would probably still be on the rock.
>
> I'd rather place the nut properly than seat it using excessive force. Everyone wins that way. Sometimes when overly yanking a nut it will come out and in your scenario you could be flying from 30feet where with more gentle treatment you would probably still be on the rock.
Common sense dictates that you hold on with your other hand to prevent that from happening! It's generally what I do...
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