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How many climbers on here use direct belaying technique and why? If you don't why not?
I started using it on multi-pitch sport abroad and in the Alps but now I find myself looking for opportunities to use it everywhere I go, even UK trad. I use a Reverso 3 and would only use it when the belay anchor points are sound to bring up a second. In this context I can't for the life of me think of any good reason not to do so and numerous reasons why it is better. I've not seen many Brits use this method and I would be interested to know why. Am I missing something?
Al
I started using it on multi-pitch sport abroad and in the Alps but now I find myself looking for opportunities to use it everywhere I go, even UK trad. I use a Reverso 3 and would only use it when the belay anchor points are sound to bring up a second. In this context I can't for the life of me think of any good reason not to do so and numerous reasons why it is better. I've not seen many Brits use this method and I would be interested to know why. Am I missing something?
Al
In reply to tradlad:
I do whenever possible - so much easier bringing up a second on a reverso 3 this way.
I do whenever possible - so much easier bringing up a second on a reverso 3 this way.
In reply to tradlad: No problems I can see if the anchors are bomber
In reply to tradlad:
i kinda half do it, in stead of clipping to my belay loop i tend to do it to the rope loop which means the fall is on the anchors without me in the system, but it does mean i cant escape from the system safely, but thats never been an issue yet
i kinda half do it, in stead of clipping to my belay loop i tend to do it to the rope loop which means the fall is on the anchors without me in the system, but it does mean i cant escape from the system safely, but thats never been an issue yet
In reply to tradlad: I agree, its great being able to eat, get clothes etc.. I don't do it when the anchors are at ground level, seems easier to sit down and belay from the waist.
In reply to tradlad:
Agree that there are a number of reasons why a direct belay is useful. However, if your second is likely to need to be pulled up the crux, a belay from the harnessis easier.
Agree that there are a number of reasons why a direct belay is useful. However, if your second is likely to need to be pulled up the crux, a belay from the harnessis easier.
In reply to tradlad: i do as well. the only drawback is if you use the reverso3 in guide function, lowering a second or giving slack if there is any load on the anchor can be a hassle.
In reply to nniff:
Really? I'd argue completely the other way - a direct belay with a 'guide plate' type device is far, far easier to use to aid a second ('hauling them up' as it were) than a belay device on the harness where you are at an instant disadvantage in terms of your range of movement and the angles at which you are pulling.
Really? I'd argue completely the other way - a direct belay with a 'guide plate' type device is far, far easier to use to aid a second ('hauling them up' as it were) than a belay device on the harness where you are at an instant disadvantage in terms of your range of movement and the angles at which you are pulling.
In reply to tradlad:
Are you doing all the leading or do you swap to a different device/system when the other guy gets in front?
Chris
Are you doing all the leading or do you swap to a different device/system when the other guy gets in front?
Chris
In reply to portlandclimber:
It used to be a hassle with older devices (esp. Reverso 1) but the Reverso 3 makes it really easy, simply hook the tip of a carabiner or a skinny sling in the small ring at the bottom of the device and gently pull towards the anchor. Fast, safe and foolproof.
It used to be a hassle with older devices (esp. Reverso 1) but the Reverso 3 makes it really easy, simply hook the tip of a carabiner or a skinny sling in the small ring at the bottom of the device and gently pull towards the anchor. Fast, safe and foolproof.
In reply to Chris Craggs: I would only belay a second in this way. If we are leading through I transfer the device, the same device that is, to the tie-in loop and belay the leader in the more traditional way. The other habit I have got into, if I am doing all the leading, is to use a cordlette/snake sling as this makes changing over much easier. I'm even thinking about getting one of those Metolious thingies (the one with all the inter-linked loops like a daisy chain) but I think I'll hang on a bit longer to see if something a little more user friendly comes along.
Al
Al
In reply to groovy_nut: Agreed you are also better placed to construct the pulley/rigging safely.
Al
Al
In reply to tradlad:
Is that one of those new DMM thumbs...?
> (In reply to Alexandre Buisse) I find that I can manage this with my thumb.
>
> Al
>
> Al
Is that one of those new DMM thumbs...?
In reply to jon: Yes you can also put it behind your top teeth and pull it violently forward like the Italians to show displeasure.
Al
Al
In reply to tradlad:
No - you miss the point entirely. If you are seated/squatting with a belay from a harness, you can stand up and bodily lift a second. As you squat down you take in the rope in. And repeat. It helps if the second makes some effort and takes his weight when you sit down. It's easy to boost a second up by about a foot with one pull doing this.
You can't do that from a direct belay.
No - you miss the point entirely. If you are seated/squatting with a belay from a harness, you can stand up and bodily lift a second. As you squat down you take in the rope in. And repeat. It helps if the second makes some effort and takes his weight when you sit down. It's easy to boost a second up by about a foot with one pull doing this.
You can't do that from a direct belay.
In reply to Gandalf: You mean semi indirect?
In reply to nniff: It's also easier to set up an assisted or unassisted hoist off the harness than it is off of a guide plate. At least I find it easier.
In reply to nniff:
Run the rope though the 1st bolt on the next pitch, then you can give some serious 'assistance'.
Chris
Run the rope though the 1st bolt on the next pitch, then you can give some serious 'assistance'.
Chris
In reply to nniff: No it's not me missing the point. I've done what you suggest many times but you have put your finger on the problem by pointing out that the second needs to help by taking weight off the rope albeit just for a moment. Friction in the system can make this all but impossible in some situations. With a direct belay it is very easy to set up a pulley system to pull a dead weight and use your legs rather than risk putting your back out.
Al
Al
In reply to nniff:
Given that you need to overcome rope stretch and any drag over the rock and through the gear between you and your second I can only assume that the folks you climb with are as light as a feather
If the second doesn't take his weight as you sit back down you're not going to go anywhere. Have you ever done this in real life or just read about it on a dodgy web forum
> (In reply to tradlad)
>
> No - you miss the point entirely. If you are seated/squatting with a belay from a harness, you can stand up and bodily lift a second. As you squat down you take in the rope in. And repeat. It helps if the second makes some effort and takes his weight when you sit down. It's easy to boost a second up by about a foot with one pull doing this.
>
> You can't do that from a direct belay.
>
> No - you miss the point entirely. If you are seated/squatting with a belay from a harness, you can stand up and bodily lift a second. As you squat down you take in the rope in. And repeat. It helps if the second makes some effort and takes his weight when you sit down. It's easy to boost a second up by about a foot with one pull doing this.
>
> You can't do that from a direct belay.
Given that you need to overcome rope stretch and any drag over the rock and through the gear between you and your second I can only assume that the folks you climb with are as light as a feather
If the second doesn't take his weight as you sit back down you're not going to go anywhere. Have you ever done this in real life or just read about it on a dodgy web forum
In reply to timjones: Communication can also be a major problem. I've only really managed this on short sections where I can see and/or hear the second and we are able to co-ordinate actions.
Al
Al
In reply to tradlad:
In reply to tradlad:
I do both.
The indirect means you take some of the shock of the fall. How bomber is bomber? Is it really bomber? Are you sure? Really, really sure?
If a second falls you are unlikely to move much with an indirect belay, and the anchors are never even tested. They only get tested with a big fall. Really you should only test your anchors if you have to.
In reply to tradlad:
I do both.
The indirect means you take some of the shock of the fall. How bomber is bomber? Is it really bomber? Are you sure? Really, really sure?
If a second falls you are unlikely to move much with an indirect belay, and the anchors are never even tested. They only get tested with a big fall. Really you should only test your anchors if you have to.
In reply to tradlad:
>"I can't for the life of me think of any good reason not to do so"
Does it not mean there's a requirement extra gear? One lot of gear to anchor you then another lot to rig the belay device.
When your second gets to the stance isn't it then a time consuming faff to keep him safe while you hand over the gear and also re-arange the set-up for him to then lead on.
Seems simpler to me just to belay a second the same way you are going to belay him when he's leading which allows you to quickly tie off the dead rope when he reaches the stance.
>"I can't for the life of me think of any good reason not to do so"
Does it not mean there's a requirement extra gear? One lot of gear to anchor you then another lot to rig the belay device.
When your second gets to the stance isn't it then a time consuming faff to keep him safe while you hand over the gear and also re-arange the set-up for him to then lead on.
Seems simpler to me just to belay a second the same way you are going to belay him when he's leading which allows you to quickly tie off the dead rope when he reaches the stance.
In reply to timjones:
Fairly frequently - the crux groove of Venom at Tremadog was particularly memorable for the second's failure to make progress without assistance and the large amount of hauling that was required. And no you can't do it if the second is hanging in space, or if there is too much rope drag. It is, however, perfectly possible to give a second a big boost by lifting with your legs - which you cannot do with a direct belay.
By all means faff around with bits of string, but the expedient thing to do is to give a sodding great heave and see if it has the required effect.
To quote Pete Livesey on Footless Crow with Chris Bonington, 'Hang on, Chris. The winch has run out of petrol'
> (In reply to nniff)
> [...]
Have you ever done this in real life or just read about it on a dodgy web forum > [...]
Fairly frequently - the crux groove of Venom at Tremadog was particularly memorable for the second's failure to make progress without assistance and the large amount of hauling that was required. And no you can't do it if the second is hanging in space, or if there is too much rope drag. It is, however, perfectly possible to give a second a big boost by lifting with your legs - which you cannot do with a direct belay.
By all means faff around with bits of string, but the expedient thing to do is to give a sodding great heave and see if it has the required effect.
To quote Pete Livesey on Footless Crow with Chris Bonington, 'Hang on, Chris. The winch has run out of petrol'
In reply to JLS:
No argument here it probably is a tad easier but I just feel that direct belays do offer some additional benefits. One of the main ones for me being comfort as I'm not getting any younger and quite often I feel as if I'm doing a lot of bending and straightening with an indirect belay.
Al
> (In reply to tradlad)
> Does it not mean there's a requirement extra gear? One lot of gear to anchor you then another lot to rig the belay device.
No, I don't carry or use any additional gear.>
> When your second gets to the stance isn't it then a time consuming faff to keep him safe while you hand over the gear and also re-arange the set-up for him to then lead on.
No it takes seconds.> When your second gets to the stance isn't it then a time consuming faff to keep him safe while you hand over the gear and also re-arange the set-up for him to then lead on.
>
> Seems simpler to me just to belay a second the same way you are going to belay him when he's leading which allows you to quickly tie off the dead rope when he reaches the stance.
> Seems simpler to me just to belay a second the same way you are going to belay him when he's leading which allows you to quickly tie off the dead rope when he reaches the stance.
No argument here it probably is a tad easier but I just feel that direct belays do offer some additional benefits. One of the main ones for me being comfort as I'm not getting any younger and quite often I feel as if I'm doing a lot of bending and straightening with an indirect belay.
Al
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Which also means everything is organised for the new leader to get going with the minimum of fuss/faff.
Chris
>
> Run the rope though the 1st bolt on the next pitch, then you can give some serious 'assistance'.
>
> Chris
> Run the rope though the 1st bolt on the next pitch, then you can give some serious 'assistance'.
>
> Chris
Which also means everything is organised for the new leader to get going with the minimum of fuss/faff.
Chris
In reply to nniff:
If hauling struggling seconds up the hard moves is such a regular event that it influences your choice of belay setup it may be time to excercise a bit more consideration in your choice of the routes you're dragging them up
> (In reply to timjones)
> [...]
> Have you ever done this in real life or just read about it on a dodgy web forum
>
>
> Fairly frequently - the crux groove of Venom at Tremadog was particularly memorable for the second's failure to make progress without assistance and the large amount of hauling that was required. And no you can't do it if the second is hanging in space, or if there is too much rope drag. It is, however, perfectly possible to give a second a big boost by lifting with your legs - which you cannot do with a direct belay.
>
> By all means faff around with bits of string, but the expedient thing to do is to give a sodding great heave and see if it has the required effect.
>
> To quote Pete Livesey on Footless Crow with Chris Bonington, 'Hang on, Chris. The winch has run out of petrol'
> [...]
> Have you ever done this in real life or just read about it on a dodgy web forum
>
>
> Fairly frequently - the crux groove of Venom at Tremadog was particularly memorable for the second's failure to make progress without assistance and the large amount of hauling that was required. And no you can't do it if the second is hanging in space, or if there is too much rope drag. It is, however, perfectly possible to give a second a big boost by lifting with your legs - which you cannot do with a direct belay.
>
> By all means faff around with bits of string, but the expedient thing to do is to give a sodding great heave and see if it has the required effect.
>
> To quote Pete Livesey on Footless Crow with Chris Bonington, 'Hang on, Chris. The winch has run out of petrol'
If hauling struggling seconds up the hard moves is such a regular event that it influences your choice of belay setup it may be time to excercise a bit more consideration in your choice of the routes you're dragging them up
In reply to tradlad:
Yes, do you not watch other climbers when you're out?
Most recreational Brit climbers theses days don't reliably place bombproof gear, so it's a bloody good job they don't use direct belays more.
> I've not seen many Brits use this method and I would be interested to know why. Am I missing something?
Yes, do you not watch other climbers when you're out?
Most recreational Brit climbers theses days don't reliably place bombproof gear, so it's a bloody good job they don't use direct belays more.
1
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Where on earth do you climb in order to encounter so many incompetent climbers?
> (In reply to tradlad)
> [...]
>
> Yes, do you not watch other climbers when you're out?
>
> Most recreational Brit climbers theses days don't reliably place bombproof gear, so it's a bloody good job they don't use direct belays more.
> [...]
>
> Yes, do you not watch other climbers when you're out?
>
> Most recreational Brit climbers theses days don't reliably place bombproof gear, so it's a bloody good job they don't use direct belays more.
Where on earth do you climb in order to encounter so many incompetent climbers?
1
In reply to timjones:
Stanage?
> (In reply to Mark Stevenson)
> [...]
>
> Where on earth do you climb in order to encounter so many incompetent climbers?
> [...]
>
> Where on earth do you climb in order to encounter so many incompetent climbers?
Stanage?
In reply to nniff: I'm afraid what you say about 'hauling' doesn't make the slightest sense. The whole point about a good semi-indirect belay is that you are TIGHT on the belay. Therefore with a correctly set-up belay it is IMPOSSIBLE to squat down to take in.
The only way to squat would be if you deliberately set up a sloppy belay just in case your second needs some assistance which strikes me as a silly idea.
Equally if you have to adjust (i.e. slacken) your connection to the belay anchors in order to squat to 'haul' then you have just lost the claimed speed advantage over rigging a 3:1 system which is extremely easy with either a good semi-indirect or direct setup.
The only way to squat would be if you deliberately set up a sloppy belay just in case your second needs some assistance which strikes me as a silly idea.
Equally if you have to adjust (i.e. slacken) your connection to the belay anchors in order to squat to 'haul' then you have just lost the claimed speed advantage over rigging a 3:1 system which is extremely easy with either a good semi-indirect or direct setup.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
No not impossible, I've certainly done that in the past. Imagine you are sitting on a bank of grass for instance, belay tight and rope to second tight as they've fallen of. The belay device is locked off. If you straighten your legs you'll end up standing up, but the rope to the belay behind you is still tight. You'll have moved your second up about a foot, or a bit more - as long as they are not swinging free. However I'm an advocate of the direct belay and only use the indirect belay if I really have to.
No not impossible, I've certainly done that in the past. Imagine you are sitting on a bank of grass for instance, belay tight and rope to second tight as they've fallen of. The belay device is locked off. If you straighten your legs you'll end up standing up, but the rope to the belay behind you is still tight. You'll have moved your second up about a foot, or a bit more - as long as they are not swinging free. However I'm an advocate of the direct belay and only use the indirect belay if I really have to.
In reply to timjones:
In terms of climbers who can't rock climb to International Mountain Guide standard, then absolutely everywhere.
If you want to call people below that level of ability incompetent then that is your call!
> Where on earth do you climb in order to encounter so many incompetent climbers?
In terms of climbers who can't rock climb to International Mountain Guide standard, then absolutely everywhere.
If you want to call people below that level of ability incompetent then that is your call!
1
In reply to jon: That is a slightly contrived case as it would be a poor setup that you would be trying to avoid in the first place. You always aim for high anchors if they conceivably exist and even at the top of a route I would be thinking about moving back down again to avoid low anchors.
Also the original discussion was in the pros and cons compared with direct belays which are only really an option if high anchors are available.
Also the original discussion was in the pros and cons compared with direct belays which are only really an option if high anchors are available.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
No it's not contrived at all. I've used that a lot on top of the sea cliffs at Pembroke, belaying from stakes. I've also used direct belays in that situation - the Magic Plate lies on the grass.
As for pros and cons, I think we are agreed that if there's the slightest doubt about a belay then a direct belay shouldn't be used.
No it's not contrived at all. I've used that a lot on top of the sea cliffs at Pembroke, belaying from stakes. I've also used direct belays in that situation - the Magic Plate lies on the grass.
As for pros and cons, I think we are agreed that if there's the slightest doubt about a belay then a direct belay shouldn't be used.
In reply to jon:
Thank you, Jon. It is slightly surreal when what has been effectively common practice for me is deemed impossible. As you say, just stand up. Of course there are always configurations in which this is not possible. Perhaps the nay sayers should give it a go.
Personally, I tend to use a direct belay for winter climbing, if it's convenient, as it allows you to sort yourself out a bit more. I use an indirect in summer, for no particular reason beyond habit and the fact that I find it more flexible (i.e. you can give your second more assistance if needed) and because the plate I prefer to use in summer doesn't do auto-lock direct belays.
Thank you, Jon. It is slightly surreal when what has been effectively common practice for me is deemed impossible. As you say, just stand up. Of course there are always configurations in which this is not possible. Perhaps the nay sayers should give it a go.
Personally, I tend to use a direct belay for winter climbing, if it's convenient, as it allows you to sort yourself out a bit more. I use an indirect in summer, for no particular reason beyond habit and the fact that I find it more flexible (i.e. you can give your second more assistance if needed) and because the plate I prefer to use in summer doesn't do auto-lock direct belays.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
You stated that "Most recreational Brit climbers theses days don't reliably place bombproof gear". I think you're wrong but if your statement was true then it would imply that the majority of british climbers couldn't realistically be described as competent.
IMG standard or any if the other instructor accreditation schemes have little relevance to your initial statement. Competence is about far more than mere bits of paper!
> (In reply to timjones)
> [...]
>
> In terms of climbers who can't rock climb to International Mountain Guide standard, then absolutely everywhere.
>
> If you want to call people below that level of ability incompetent then that is your call!
> [...]
>
> In terms of climbers who can't rock climb to International Mountain Guide standard, then absolutely everywhere.
>
> If you want to call people below that level of ability incompetent then that is your call!
You stated that "Most recreational Brit climbers theses days don't reliably place bombproof gear". I think you're wrong but if your statement was true then it would imply that the majority of british climbers couldn't realistically be described as competent.
IMG standard or any if the other instructor accreditation schemes have little relevance to your initial statement. Competence is about far more than mere bits of paper!
In reply to timjones:
Yes, to suggest that anyone who isn't a guide is incompetent, is clearly rubbish. I can think of a few guides.............
Yes, to suggest that anyone who isn't a guide is incompetent, is clearly rubbish. I can think of a few guides.............
1
In reply to tradlad:
I sometimes use a direct belay on an italian hitch for bringing up seconds especially on easy ground, I find it faster to set up and also take in. And often easier on the back.
I sometimes use a direct belay on an italian hitch for bringing up seconds especially on easy ground, I find it faster to set up and also take in. And often easier on the back.
In reply to nniff: I get what you're saying but to be fair, setting up a hoist on an autolocking magic plate is an absolute doddle and takes as long as it takes to put a single prusik on the live rope and clip the dead rope through a carabiner on the prusik...
In reply to CurlyStevo: Yes I've used one in the Alps but they are a faff with twin ropes. I'm sure someone will come on to correct me but I think that you can use an Italian Hitch to belay a leader, I've certainly seen guides using one that way.
Al
Al
In reply to tradlad:
Haven't seen a mention yet of the traditional direct belay: hitching the rope around an absolutely bomber spike. I use this on 'Alpine terrain' (where you are switching between pitching and moving together, or soloing) all the time. Not quite as convenient for leading through though, as you have to construct an anchor to protect the leader when your second gets up to you.
Haven't seen a mention yet of the traditional direct belay: hitching the rope around an absolutely bomber spike. I use this on 'Alpine terrain' (where you are switching between pitching and moving together, or soloing) all the time. Not quite as convenient for leading through though, as you have to construct an anchor to protect the leader when your second gets up to you.
In reply to Only a hill: Yes I've used that method as well. In fact I once held two seconds when one slipped and dislodged the second one.
Al
Al
In reply to tradlad: It is definitely a European thing. They all do it over there. The main reason I can think of to use it is if you are belaying indirectly whilst sat down and your second falls off, they usually cut off the circulation to one of your legs.
In reply to tradlad: Well there's nothing stopping you using two biners each with a hitch on or perhaps only hitch one rope and just pass the second rope through a biner with no hitch, yes not quite as bomber but I often have a second on each rope anyways.
In reply to EeeByGum:
A consequence of often having fixed gear at stances no doubt.
> (In reply to tradlad) It is definitely a European thing.
A consequence of often having fixed gear at stances no doubt.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Italian hitching them both in one crab works ok, especially with skinnier ropes, and they can move independently if you need them to.
> (In reply to tradlad) Well there's nothing stopping you using two biners each with a hitch on
Italian hitching them both in one crab works ok, especially with skinnier ropes, and they can move independently if you need them to.
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