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Hi
So you get 3 layer gore tex and 2 layer gore tex, paclite gore tex, XCR
Xcr being the most breathable
Paclite being the most lightweight but literally just a single layer
So how is 3 layer gore tex put together? what are the 3 layers?
and what layers go into 2 layer gore tex?
So you get 3 layer gore tex and 2 layer gore tex, paclite gore tex, XCR
Xcr being the most breathable
Paclite being the most lightweight but literally just a single layer
So how is 3 layer gore tex put together? what are the 3 layers?
and what layers go into 2 layer gore tex?
In reply to Will1991:
and what about 2.5 layer gortex while we're at it - how does THAT work??
and what about 2.5 layer gortex while we're at it - how does THAT work??
In reply to FrankBooth: 2.5 adds a really thin microgrid to the gore tex which makes it more comfortable against the skin and is only counted as .5 layer because it is so thin.
but again, i dont know what the other two layers are :S
i think thats right anyway
but again, i dont know what the other two layers are :S
i think thats right anyway
In reply to Will1991: In 3 layer the goretex appears to be a single skin fabric. The goretex is laminated to an outer fabric and then protected on the inside by another 'mesh'type fabric stuk to the other side of the goretex. The goretex itself is like a thin white cling film until it is stuck to the outer fabric. In 2 layer the goretex is laminated to the outer fabric in the same way as 3 layer but the inner lining is a seperate unbonded 'drop' lining, normally mesh or very light unproofed nylon.
In reply to Will1991: Dont forget Goretex Performance and proshells...
In reply to Will1991: yesbutnobut... is right here but just to add a bit to his description;
the role of that third layer inner layer on goretex is to protect the goretex from sweat and body oils. The need for this layer comes clear when you explain goretex's history. Is everybody comfortable? Then i will begin...
When goretex was first made it was a two layer fabric, you had the waterproof goretex layer which was punched with tiny tiny hydroscopic holes allowing only air molecules to pass through. This layer was protected by an outer face fabric which could be changed depending on the desired use and is why goretex jackets have very different feels even though they're all goretex. This goretex, being air permeable, was very very breathable however problems arose when sweat and body oils got in contact with the holes - they had a tendency to stick and block up the holes stopping the jacket breathing.
So it was deemed that a third layer was needed to protect the jacket from the inside. This third layer is basically a semi permeable membrane across which water vapour and moisture can travel along a concentration gradient (hence why goretex doesn't work in tropical environments). Although this reduces the breathability of goretex. This sort of goretex has taken a few different shapes the latest being goretex proshell which bonds that third layer onto the goretex in a clever way I've never really looked into - but it is bloody good in comparison to old heavy xcr.
That third layer is what you pay for in expensive jackets, cheaper 2 layer jackets will use a mesh to stop body sweat coming into contact with the goretex - which is not very effective.
eVent (another popular waterproof fabric) arose when one of goretex's patents expired and in response they engineered a waterproof goretex-like material. However before they weave this they coat all it's fibers in a substance which repels sweat and body odour. Essentially they didn't need to apply the third layer. So in theory they made a jacket with similar breathability to original goretex (air permeable) which wasn't effected by sweat. In reality it is still effected by dirt and sweat but not to such an extent as old goretex. This is why eVent needs a lot more looking after - washing, reproofing etc. for it to maintain it's very high level of breathability. Goretex is a little more robust in this sense and it's breathability is not as sentsitive to dirt.
hope that helps illuminate the mystery a bit
sorry about the english but it's late and i can't be bothered to read through it. Also feel free to correct me if i'm wrong on anything - this is just my basic understanding.
the role of that third layer inner layer on goretex is to protect the goretex from sweat and body oils. The need for this layer comes clear when you explain goretex's history. Is everybody comfortable? Then i will begin...
When goretex was first made it was a two layer fabric, you had the waterproof goretex layer which was punched with tiny tiny hydroscopic holes allowing only air molecules to pass through. This layer was protected by an outer face fabric which could be changed depending on the desired use and is why goretex jackets have very different feels even though they're all goretex. This goretex, being air permeable, was very very breathable however problems arose when sweat and body oils got in contact with the holes - they had a tendency to stick and block up the holes stopping the jacket breathing.
So it was deemed that a third layer was needed to protect the jacket from the inside. This third layer is basically a semi permeable membrane across which water vapour and moisture can travel along a concentration gradient (hence why goretex doesn't work in tropical environments). Although this reduces the breathability of goretex. This sort of goretex has taken a few different shapes the latest being goretex proshell which bonds that third layer onto the goretex in a clever way I've never really looked into - but it is bloody good in comparison to old heavy xcr.
That third layer is what you pay for in expensive jackets, cheaper 2 layer jackets will use a mesh to stop body sweat coming into contact with the goretex - which is not very effective.
eVent (another popular waterproof fabric) arose when one of goretex's patents expired and in response they engineered a waterproof goretex-like material. However before they weave this they coat all it's fibers in a substance which repels sweat and body odour. Essentially they didn't need to apply the third layer. So in theory they made a jacket with similar breathability to original goretex (air permeable) which wasn't effected by sweat. In reality it is still effected by dirt and sweat but not to such an extent as old goretex. This is why eVent needs a lot more looking after - washing, reproofing etc. for it to maintain it's very high level of breathability. Goretex is a little more robust in this sense and it's breathability is not as sentsitive to dirt.
hope that helps illuminate the mystery a bit
sorry about the english but it's late and i can't be bothered to read through it. Also feel free to correct me if i'm wrong on anything - this is just my basic understanding.
In reply to Will1991: original gore tex's were xcr, classic and paclite
xcr has been superceded by pro shell, having a smoother finish allowing it to slide over other layers easier, advances in technology have allowed it to be engineered lighter and more breathable. pro shell is 3 layer, the fine grid on the inside is called a micro backer, it picks up moisture and transfers it through the fabric.
classic became performance shell, most often a 2 layer, the 3rd being the inner fabric liner which will undoubtedly be heavier than the micro grid on pro shell, however the idea is the same- to pick up and transfer moisture or spread it over a larger surface area, therefore allowing it to evaporate more easily.
paclite has evolved through several forms, the function remaining the same though, compressability (and so packability) lightweight meaning a lighter face fabric has to be used, often at the expense of durability. paclite has a carbon coating applied over the gore tex membrane which contrary to the popular belief that the actual type of gore tex doesnt breathe that well, its the carbon coating that doesnt deal well with moisture, allowing condensation to build up due to build up of temperature and sweat.
gore tex jackets used to be made without the inner scrim/backer exposing the membrane, however it was easily damaged, even by the users sweat, this resulted in a higher breathability but easily compromised jacket. this obviously been changed now to some sort of backing which has reduced the original level of breathability but increased durability to the level that we expect today, which on some jackets can be incredible *cough*arcteryx*cough*
xcr has been superceded by pro shell, having a smoother finish allowing it to slide over other layers easier, advances in technology have allowed it to be engineered lighter and more breathable. pro shell is 3 layer, the fine grid on the inside is called a micro backer, it picks up moisture and transfers it through the fabric.
classic became performance shell, most often a 2 layer, the 3rd being the inner fabric liner which will undoubtedly be heavier than the micro grid on pro shell, however the idea is the same- to pick up and transfer moisture or spread it over a larger surface area, therefore allowing it to evaporate more easily.
paclite has evolved through several forms, the function remaining the same though, compressability (and so packability) lightweight meaning a lighter face fabric has to be used, often at the expense of durability. paclite has a carbon coating applied over the gore tex membrane which contrary to the popular belief that the actual type of gore tex doesnt breathe that well, its the carbon coating that doesnt deal well with moisture, allowing condensation to build up due to build up of temperature and sweat.
gore tex jackets used to be made without the inner scrim/backer exposing the membrane, however it was easily damaged, even by the users sweat, this resulted in a higher breathability but easily compromised jacket. this obviously been changed now to some sort of backing which has reduced the original level of breathability but increased durability to the level that we expect today, which on some jackets can be incredible *cough*arcteryx*cough*
In reply to heist182:
As far as I understand it the holes are as a result of the manufacturing process which is from stretching the base material. Not actually from any mechanical action or process. If i remember what i read back in the day correctly this process & the effects were discovered by WL Gore accidently when looking for something else.
> When goretex was first made it was a two layer fabric, you had the waterproof goretex layer which was punched with tiny tiny hydroscopic holes allowing only air molecules to pass through.
As far as I understand it the holes are as a result of the manufacturing process which is from stretching the base material. Not actually from any mechanical action or process. If i remember what i read back in the day correctly this process & the effects were discovered by WL Gore accidently when looking for something else.
In reply to withey: it mades from PTFE , the same stuff as plumbers thread tape !
In reply to Frank4short: Yep WL Gore discovered it accidentally, but the company he was working for (DuPont maybe?) wouldn't accept the potential of his discovery, so he quit and started his own company to exploit his discovery.
Goretex itself is expanded (stretched in a specific set of atmospheric condidtions) PTFE (poly tetra fluro ethylene).
Currently it's available in 3 different forrms - Paclite Shell, Performance Shell and Pro Shell. The easiest way to look at these three is by looking at requirements for each category.
Paclite garments are "2-layer" garments. Basically the outer "face" fabric (the stuff you see on the outside of the jacket), the goretex membrane inside, and then a thin protective layer (almost a chemical treatment) to keep oils from damaging the membrane itself. For a jacket to be labeled "Paclite" it must be using this specific "2-layer" technology, and it must weight less than 500g.
Proshell is the best waterproof/breathable fabric out there currently. Rather than using a painted or glued protective layer as in Paclite, a third woven layer (called the Micro Grid Woven Backer) is attached to the inside of the goretex (ie the bit that it up against your inner layers). The MGB is unique, and is the thing that currently sets Pro Shell apart (and above, in my opinion) everything else out there. Event, Goretex XCR etc use what is called a tricott mesh backer. There is no comparison between the micro grid woven backer and the tricott mech, and Pro Shell is the only fabric using the MGB. The MGB is lighter, smoother (less internal friction), more durable, more breathable and faster drying. Couple this with micro seam tolerances (reducing the bulk of the garment by wasting less material in the overlap of a seam) and mini seam tape (increasing the breathable area of the garment), and Pro Shell is obviously the best of what is currently available.
Performance shell is pretty much the category that is used at the catch all for everything else. More traditional 3-layer jackets (ie goretex with a tricott mesh backer) are classed as Performance shell, as are jackets that don't have the micro seam tolerances. Even a jacket that is using Paclite technology but weighs over 500g gets a Performance Shell tag (see the Mountain Hardwear Xenon jacket - its face fabric was heavy duty, meaning the whole jacket weighed in at about 520g, so it missed out on a Paclite tag. Although labeled Performance Shell, it was effectively the burliest Paclite jacket in the world.
Goretex XCR is not considered a current technology for clothing anymore. It's still used on footwear, but any new season Goretex clothing will be labeled Paclite, Performance Shell, or Pro Shell.
Sorry for the long winded reply. I hope this makes sense to everyone.
Goretex itself is expanded (stretched in a specific set of atmospheric condidtions) PTFE (poly tetra fluro ethylene).
Currently it's available in 3 different forrms - Paclite Shell, Performance Shell and Pro Shell. The easiest way to look at these three is by looking at requirements for each category.
Paclite garments are "2-layer" garments. Basically the outer "face" fabric (the stuff you see on the outside of the jacket), the goretex membrane inside, and then a thin protective layer (almost a chemical treatment) to keep oils from damaging the membrane itself. For a jacket to be labeled "Paclite" it must be using this specific "2-layer" technology, and it must weight less than 500g.
Proshell is the best waterproof/breathable fabric out there currently. Rather than using a painted or glued protective layer as in Paclite, a third woven layer (called the Micro Grid Woven Backer) is attached to the inside of the goretex (ie the bit that it up against your inner layers). The MGB is unique, and is the thing that currently sets Pro Shell apart (and above, in my opinion) everything else out there. Event, Goretex XCR etc use what is called a tricott mesh backer. There is no comparison between the micro grid woven backer and the tricott mech, and Pro Shell is the only fabric using the MGB. The MGB is lighter, smoother (less internal friction), more durable, more breathable and faster drying. Couple this with micro seam tolerances (reducing the bulk of the garment by wasting less material in the overlap of a seam) and mini seam tape (increasing the breathable area of the garment), and Pro Shell is obviously the best of what is currently available.
Performance shell is pretty much the category that is used at the catch all for everything else. More traditional 3-layer jackets (ie goretex with a tricott mesh backer) are classed as Performance shell, as are jackets that don't have the micro seam tolerances. Even a jacket that is using Paclite technology but weighs over 500g gets a Performance Shell tag (see the Mountain Hardwear Xenon jacket - its face fabric was heavy duty, meaning the whole jacket weighed in at about 520g, so it missed out on a Paclite tag. Although labeled Performance Shell, it was effectively the burliest Paclite jacket in the world.
Goretex XCR is not considered a current technology for clothing anymore. It's still used on footwear, but any new season Goretex clothing will be labeled Paclite, Performance Shell, or Pro Shell.
Sorry for the long winded reply. I hope this makes sense to everyone.
In reply to mikebee:
My last jacket was a Gortex XCR, which I bought in 2003, and I was more than pleased with its breathability up until the zip broke last December.
During the New Year sales I bought a performance shell jacket and I have to say that this new Goretex jacket is definitely an improvement on what was still a good product.
> Goretex XCR is not considered a current technology for clothing anymore. It's still used on footwear, but any new season Goretex clothing will be labeled Paclite, Performance Shell, or Pro Shell.
>
>
My last jacket was a Gortex XCR, which I bought in 2003, and I was more than pleased with its breathability up until the zip broke last December.
During the New Year sales I bought a performance shell jacket and I have to say that this new Goretex jacket is definitely an improvement on what was still a good product.
In reply to Will1991:
Just to confuse things, '3-layer' is actually 6 layer...
1 face fabric
2 glue
3 ePTFE mebrane
4 PU coating on ePFTE membrane
5 glue
6 scrim fabric
Just to confuse things, '3-layer' is actually 6 layer...
1 face fabric
2 glue
3 ePTFE mebrane
4 PU coating on ePFTE membrane
5 glue
6 scrim fabric
In reply to Will1991: What is the difference in construction then between Paramo and Goretex, other than a lot heavier and feels more comfortable?
In reply to ian2u:
Enormous. Completely different ways of dealing with moisture.
Paramo has no membrane or glue, and it's not a laminate at all, but a two-layer system with a DWR-treated shell fabric and a reversed, DWR-treated micropile inner (i.e. the micropile faces outwards). It's the latter than holds water away from the body (either condensed sweat or water that has made it through the shell fabric).
Unlike shelled micropile items like Rab's VR Trail, Paramo isn't intended to be worn next to the skin, as there's no nice soft, wicking micropile to make you feel comfortable, only the smooth DWR-treated inner face of the micropile, which can feel a little clammy (it won't wick; a function of its water-handling properties).
> What is the difference in construction then between Paramo and Goretex, other than a lot heavier and feels more comfortable?
Enormous. Completely different ways of dealing with moisture.
Paramo has no membrane or glue, and it's not a laminate at all, but a two-layer system with a DWR-treated shell fabric and a reversed, DWR-treated micropile inner (i.e. the micropile faces outwards). It's the latter than holds water away from the body (either condensed sweat or water that has made it through the shell fabric).
Unlike shelled micropile items like Rab's VR Trail, Paramo isn't intended to be worn next to the skin, as there's no nice soft, wicking micropile to make you feel comfortable, only the smooth DWR-treated inner face of the micropile, which can feel a little clammy (it won't wick; a function of its water-handling properties).
In reply to captain paranoia: Paramo say you should use Nikwax washin which must coat both the outside and inside with the DWR but thats OK if as you say the inner is DWR treated.
But it seems wrong to use Washin on Goretex since that must make the inner surface bead sweat and therefore make it difficult to move through the membrane to the outside.
I noticed that Arcteryx on their web site say not to use Washin products on their Shells but spray on ones instead.
So does using Nikwax WashIn on Goretex cause problems?
And if so should I give it a few good washes to try and get rid of the coating on the inside and then hand spray?
But it seems wrong to use Washin on Goretex since that must make the inner surface bead sweat and therefore make it difficult to move through the membrane to the outside.
I noticed that Arcteryx on their web site say not to use Washin products on their Shells but spray on ones instead.
So does using Nikwax WashIn on Goretex cause problems?
And if so should I give it a few good washes to try and get rid of the coating on the inside and then hand spray?
In reply to Will1991:
Gore-tex is expanded PTFE.
All the variations ate basically just different face and liner fabrics.
Gore-tex is expanded PTFE.
All the variations ate basically just different face and liner fabrics.
In reply to Will1991: Interesting test here: http://www.shelby.fi/tips/breathability.pdf
Shame it's not been updated in a while.
Cheers,
FT.
Shame it's not been updated in a while.
Cheers,
FT.
In reply to Will1991: I think you'll find that actually 2 layer Gore-Tex is the most breathable, its all to do with the meshing on the inside that helps wick moisture and to do with the adhesives used in the bonding of the 3 layer fabric together.
The main advantage of using 3 layer Gore-tex is its toughness and robustness. XCR Doesn't exist any more, it has been replaced by Pro-shell.
Paclite is a 3 layer fabric, it has it's nylon outer for strength, the Gore-Tex Paclite membrane and an inner liner that is a PU coating. Now, i know 2 Layer has a PU coating but 2 layers coating is MUCH thinner than that of Paclite, and it is only there for anti-contamination purposes where as on Paclite it takes the place of the meshing or the backer (Pro-shell or XCR)
Personally I am an eVent man through and through.
The main advantage of using 3 layer Gore-tex is its toughness and robustness. XCR Doesn't exist any more, it has been replaced by Pro-shell.
Paclite is a 3 layer fabric, it has it's nylon outer for strength, the Gore-Tex Paclite membrane and an inner liner that is a PU coating. Now, i know 2 Layer has a PU coating but 2 layers coating is MUCH thinner than that of Paclite, and it is only there for anti-contamination purposes where as on Paclite it takes the place of the meshing or the backer (Pro-shell or XCR)
Personally I am an eVent man through and through.
In reply to ian2u: you lose around 7% breathability every time you use a wash in proofer.
In reply to Will1991:
Interesting. Do you have a source for this statement?
> you lose around 7% breathability every time you use a wash in proofer.
Interesting. Do you have a source for this statement?
In reply to captain paranoia: I think what he is trying to say is that spray on proofers are more effective than wash in, which is true.
In reply to Richiehill:
Which is what I worked out as the Jacket got less and less breathable after Wash In treatments. Yet Nikwax claims that Goretex recomends using their Wash In.
> (In reply to captain paranoia) I think what he is trying to say is that spray on proofers are more effective than wash in, which is true.
Which is what I worked out as the Jacket got less and less breathable after Wash In treatments. Yet Nikwax claims that Goretex recomends using their Wash In.
In reply to captain paranoia: no source, just from staff training at work
In reply to ian2u: Nikwax is recommend FOR Gore-Tex, where as Grangers is recommended BY Gore-Tex
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