UKC

Having spent the majority of the last two years sport climbing and the last two summers in Ceuse, i'm looking to do something a bit different this summer. I want some objectives to get psyched for and read up on.

The main things i'm interested in are totally mega classic long 'alpine' rock routes. They can have an easy snow/glacier approach if it's a good enough route to warrant the effort, but i'm only interested in purely rock climbing on the actual route; no snow or ice. Ideally trad, but i won't be put off by a few bolts/pegs here and there or bolted belays etc.

Difficulty: They can be anything up to trad E5/6 i guess but with no lower limit. I expect they'll be done with different partners so i'm looking for suggestions of any grade really (within reason - i'm not interested in scrambling or ridge walks!!)

Location: Anywhere in the central Europe area (France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, Germany(south), Slovenia.

The only stipulation is that they HAVE to be world-class. Mind-blowing routes, good rock, quality climbing, amazing situations etc etc. Ideally i'd like to get a list together of about 10 or 15 of THE best routes in Europe. Please give as much info as possible (i.e. length, difficulty, location, approach etc), as i'm not very clued up when it comes to these sorts of routes. Oh and if possible give a rough UK trad grade cos i have no idea what AD, TD etc actually means

Thanks in advance for any info

I'll start off the list with my main objective for the summer:-

The 'Brandler-Hasse' (E5 6a/F7a+), Dolomites

In reply to ali k: Cassin route on the Piz Badile is a stunning 20+ pitch route and goes at about E1. Would love to do the Brandler-Hasse myself but probably need to get fitter.

In reply to ali k:

The Brandler Hasse in the Picos de Europa is pretty awesome too

In reply to ali k:
Hi Ali,

Near to 'home' you can go to the Ariege can climb the Dent D'Orlu. Mostly below 6c but several routes between 10-20 pitches, and you can stay with John and Anne Arran in their new place, it's nice. There was an article written about on of the routes a few years ago http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=227

Otherwise another classic face (or mountain) which is weekend-driveable for you is Naranjo del Bulnes in the picos, the Rabadá-Navarro has been on my tick-list for years http://bit.ly/8Xb0XQ but there are several other routes on there which are harder.

In reply to ali k:

The Grand Capuchin meets all of your requirements, there are a choice of routes, 8 to 12 pitches, from HVS with a bit of aid to 8b

In reply to ali k:

Salbit, West Ridge, Switzerland. about 40 pitches.....

In reply to ali k:
The Fehrmann route on the Campanile Basso in the Brenta Dolomites is a classic. Links to Photo of the pinnacle and UKC route listing are below
http://c0278592.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/original/134168.jpg
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=72320
Climbing is given Alpine V, so around VS, but pretty sustained over 13 pitches I believe, it's certainly on my wishlist.

In reply to ali k:

Have a look at the Rebuffat on the Aiguille du Midi. 8 pitches up to F6a, probably HVS/E1, and it doesn't get much more classic than that.

In reply to ali k:
Here are a few which spring to mind...
Dolomites:
Brandler Hasse (F7a)
Tempi Moderni (F7a) and The Fish on the Marmolada (F7b+). Both have non-technical approaches and descent by cable car. About 900m. This is an awesome wall with upwards of 50 routes on it.

Chamonix:
Fou South Face (F7b)- Has an involved approach, I posted on here about it a few months back
Divine Providence (F7b+). On the Grand Pillar d'Angle. This bad boy is on the back of mont blanc, is hard and comitting at altitude but has to be one of the best big wall style rock ticks in Europe.
GUlliver's Travels on the Grand Capucin

Switzerland
Le Chat Du Chayne on the Geneva Pillar of the Eiger. F7a+? Looks awesome.

Have a look at www.planetmountain.com There are loads of Topos for all these classic routes.

In reply to ali k:
Depends what you mean by 'long' and 'alpine'. For me, long is more than 10 pitches, ideally more than 15.
There are loads of great, multi-pitch, mountain rock climbs within the Alps. But if I didn't encounter some snow, ice or a glacier on either the approach or descent I not sure they would feel like 'alpine rock routes'.

You should dig out the recent edition (Sept 09?) of Climb magazine where Luca Signorelli wrote about some of the classic rock routes on the Italian saide of Mt Blanc. Better still, get the Giovanni Bassanini guiidebooks (in Italian, but topo drawings) covering Mt Blanc massif alpine rock routes. Published by ALP magazine Vol 1 is the "the Classics" and Vol 2 "the Modern [Classics]". A rough equivalant of our Hard Rock and Extreme Rock.

Obvious creme-de-la-creme routes round Mt Blanc would include: American Direct on the Dru, Anouk on Petites Jorasses, something on Aiguille Noire such as S Ridge (probably too scrambly for you, HVSish) or Ratti-Vitali and something on Grand Capucin. Maybe also Republique Bananiere on Aiguille Republique. That would give you arguably the top five rock spires in area, although you'd also include Freney face of Mt Blanc if you could cope with some snow and ice.

Tony

In reply to ali k: As already said, The American Direct on the Dru needs to be on your list going free at E3. Absolutely stunning line.

In reply to ali k: Lots in the Dolomites obviously but as mentioned above, one of the big classics on the marmolada would be a must.

In reply to Facewest.co.uk:

Several on the Civetta as well, in fact most areas there will have hard multipitch routes done in the last 30 years to test anyone.

In reply to ali k: If you can find it (you're not having mine ) then get a copy of Extreme Alpine Rock.

In reply to Jim Walton:

I too am pleased to see how much Extreme Alpine Rock has appreciated in value over the years

Back to the OP, here's a few that aren't in EAR or the Mont Blanc fun books that I or one of my mates has raved about:
Ecrins, high mountain routes in French Alps:
- S Pillar, Barre des Ecrins
- NW Ridge of the Ailefroide
- S Face Direct of La Meije

Valley "cragging":
- Motorhead, Grimselpass, Switzerland
- La Demande and Ula, Gorge du Verdon, France

Less Frequented Chamonix stuff:
- Marchand du Sable, S Face, Chamonix Aiguilles
- Ryan-Lochmatter, S Face, Chamonix Aiguilles
- 3 x S Face routes of the Petit Dru

Bernese Oberland:
- S Ridge, Schreckhorn

that's enough for one season. Come back when you've done a few of them and tell us how you got on

In reply to ali k:

- Anything on Grand Capucin
- American Direct on Dru (should be still there)
- Salbit West Ridge
- Cassin on Badile
- Septumania and Motorhead on Grimsel
- Gletschersymphonie on Wellhorn
- Anything in Wenden
- Anything in Rätikon
- Luna Nascente and Oceano Irrazionale in Val di Mello
- Pumprisse in Wilder Kaiser

Those would be a good start. Once you learn to like more snow...

Gervasutti Pillar
NE Spur on Droites
Freney Pillar
Contamine on Petites Jorasses
Scheidegg Wetterhorn
Anything on Dru South Face

In reply to ali k: The Madier on the Aiguille de Dibona.Might be at the short end for you but a stunning line on a stunning peak.
sjm

In reply to ali k:

Most of what's listed above plus:

South Ridge of the Aiguille Noire
http://www.summitpost.org/images/original/328184.jpg
(normally far drier than in this image)

Machetto Dihedral, Tour Des Jorasses
http://www.summitpost.org/images/original/334474.jpg

Mellano-Perego dihedral at the Becca di Valsoera
http://c0278592.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/original/425157.jpg

In reply to TonyM:

The Bassanini guides are an excellent way to make a "tick list", as most of the great classics are there, but beware the indications and particularly the grades, as these are quite idiosyncratic. Giò has a very bad case of a typical disease of Italian climbers - grades compression!

In reply to ali k:

Thanks for all these suggestions. Keep them coming! In reply to TonyM - yes i know that strictly speaking 'alpine' routes aren't complete without some snow or ice but i'm a sport-climbing softie these days! As originally said though, i'm not adverse to an easy-ish snow approach, but on the actual route i'd rather just climb rock.

Ok so the list so far is:-

- 'Brandler-Hasse' route , Dolomites (E5 6a/F7a+)
- Tempi Moderni, Dolomites (~F7a)
- The Fish, Dolomites (~F7a)
- Cassin route, Piz Badile (~E1)
- Dent D'Orlu, Ariege?
- Something on Naranjo del Bulnes, Picos de Europa - any other route suggestions on this?
- Grand Capucin - something on this - any suggestions? (Gulliver's travels?)
- Fehrmann route, Campanile Basso, Brenta Dolomites (~VS)
- Rebuffat, Aiguille de Midi (~E1)
- Fou south face, Chamonix (~F7b)
- Divine providence, Mont Blanc (dismissed - looks too much for me!)
- Le Chat du Chayne, Geneva Pillar, Eiger (~F7a+)
- American Direct, The Dru (E3)
- Anouk, Petites Jorasses
- S Pillar, Barre des Ecrins
- NW ridge of Ailefroide
- S Face direct of La Meije
- Motorhead, Grimselpass, Switzerland
- Septumania, Grimselpass, Switzerland
- La Demande, Verdon Gorge
- Ula, Verdon Gorge
- Marchand du Sable, S Face, Chamonix Aiguilles
- Ryan-Lochmatter, S Face, Chamonix Aiguilles
- 3 x S Face routes of the Petit Dru (what are these?)
- S Ridge, Schreckhorn, Bernese Oberland
- Salbit West Ridge (dismissed cos it's a ridge!)
- Gletschersymphonie on Wellhorn
- Anything in Wenden (any recommendations?)
- Anything in Rätikon (sany recommendations?)
- Luna Nascente and Oceano Irrazionale in Val di Mello
- Pumprisse in Wilder Kaiser
- Madier, Aiguille de Dibona
- South Ridge of the Aiguille Noire
- Machetto Dihedral, Tour Des Jorasses
- Mellano-Perego dihedral at the Becca di Valsoera

- Gervasutti Pillar
- NE Spur on Droites
- Freney Pillar
- Contamine on Petites Jorasses
- Scheidegg Wetterhorn
- Anything on Dru South Face

How snowy are these last six? just the approach or on the route aswell?

Extreme Alpine Rock book - names of any mega classics pls?

Are any on the above list ridge climbs/scrambles? (so i can dismiss them) I'd prefer to stick to more-or-less straight up routes.

Any more suggestions/info appreciated

Thanks
Ali

In reply to ali k:


Trident Pillar, Stembert Pillar and the other one - the guidebook is not to hand. I think the Trident is rated as the best of the three but they're all good and involve minimal approach faff with just a quick saunter over the Charpoua glacier from the hut. They're all TD +/- ish, 600-800 m long, south facing and on the Dru. Have never worked out why they ain't more popular.

In reply to ali k: Salbit West Ridge

In reply to ali k:

I was about to post exactly the same request, though top limit for me would be more like E3. Planning a 5 week trip this summer.

The list is building nicely, but it is mostly the usual suspects so far. Like Ali i'm not interested in stuff that's particularly alpine/serious e.g Freney, NE Spur Droites etc

Anybody know more about Austrian areas?, and the Engelhorner?

Specific Rhatikon and Wenden recommendations would be welcome too.

Ali - plenty of great non-ridge routes in Salbit like "Incredible" for example.

In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC:

Wilder Kaiser has quality limestone with very few bolts. In addition you could consider Hochkönig, Karwendel and Wetterstein. Those have limestone routes from 200 to 300 meters in length.


Pick any you can do. In Wenden the easiest routes are very runout 6c'ish and in Rätikon it's about the same. Maybe a little easier in Rätikön.

This is a very good guide covering all of Switzerland, it has all places in one book:
http://www.lakesclimber.com/publications/guide-books/european-rock-guide-bo...

In reply to Duncan I:

There isn't any good guidebook available. The very old Piola book has them but haven't seen them in newer ones. Also, a French quide told me they are old skool routes with big cracks and as such out of fashion.

In reply to adnix:

You're right, they're in the older Piola guides and also the even older Alpine Club guides. There was certainly some up-to-date topo of the face in the Charpoua hut in 2006 and the guides office / OHM will have good info about all the local areas mentioned in this thread.

And don't take a French Guide's word on it - they've never been able to climb wide cracks properly anyway. Maybe they should read Rebuffat's "Neige et Roc" to see how to do it

In reply to ali k:


Perhaps 100 to 150 woud be more meaningful. There must be at least 10 to 15 world class Alpine rock routes within a couple of hour's drive from my house!

Bit like saying "give me one route that sums up British rock climbing" - the choice is so limited it becomes almost arbitrary.

In reply to ali k:

Rank Zerox on Tete D'aval, Ecrins. f6c+/f7a. 700m.
Aurore Nucleare, Northface Pic Sans Nom, Ecrins. f6b. 500m

In reply to ali k:
There are several excellent routes on the Petit Clocher du Portalet, next to the Orny Hut in Switzerland. Although not the longest routes in the world, they more than make up for it in excellent quality climbing and a superb location!

In reply to TobyA:

yeh i know. i don't need convincing of the quality of norwegian granite! i had an amazing summer there a few years ago and can't wait to go back. the routes and rock were outstanding and the place spectacular. i just need a few more years to rid my memory of all the rain and get psyched again

In reply to ali k:


If you're considering the American Direct at the Drus, you should still consider the Mellano-Perego. Better rock, similar feel, and far less objective danger!

In reply to ali k:

At Grimsel Fair Hands Line is an easier classic, a dozen pitches up to 6a+, and an easy walk-off - a good warm-up for some of the harder stuff on that list.

http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/117058240


Chris

In reply to ali k:

So the updated list (purely for my records & further debate) is:-

Dolomites:
- Brandler-Hasse (E5 6a/F7a+)
- Tempi Moderni (~F7a)
- The Fish (~F7b+)
- Fehrmann route, Campanile Basso, Brenta Dolomites (~VS)

Italy:
- Val di Mello - Luna Nascente (F6b) and Oceano Irrazionale (F6b)
- Mellano-Perego dihedral at the Becca di Valsoera (Gran Paradiso?)

Chamonix:
- Grand Capucin (any recommended routes? Gulliver's travels?)
- Rebuffat, Aiguille de Midi (~E1)
- Fou south face (~F7b)
- American Direct, The Dru (E3)
- Anouk, Petites Jorasses
- Contamine, Petites Jorasses
- Marchand du Sable, S Face, Chamonix Aiguilles
- Ryan-Lochmatter, S Face, Chamonix Aiguilles
- 3 x S Face routes of the Petit Dru (Trident Pillar, Stembert Pillar, Contamine route)
- Machetto Dihedral, Tour Des Jorasses

Ariege:
- Dent D'Orlu (any recommended routes?)

Picos de Europa:
- Naranjo del Bulnes (any recommended routes?)

Switzerland:
- Motorhead, Grimselpass
- Septumania, Grimselpass
- Cassin route, Piz Badile (~E1)
- Salbit non ridge routes (any recommended routes? – ‘Incredible’?)
- Wenden (any recommended routes?)
- Rätikon (any recommended routes?)
- Scheidegg-Wetterhorn
- S Ridge, Schreckhorn
- Le Chat du Chayne, Geneva Pillar, Eiger (~F7a+)
- Gletschersymphonie on Wellhorn

Austria:
- Pumprisse, Wilder Kaiser
- Engelhorner (any recommended routes?)

Ecrins:
- S Pillar, Barre des Ecrins
- NW ridge of Ailefroide
- S Face direct of La Meije
- Madier, Aiguille de Dibona
- Rank Zerox on Tete D'aval (f6c+/f7a. 700m.)
- Aurore Nucleare, Northface Pic Sans Nom (f6b. 500m)

Verdon Gorge:
- La Demande (F6a+)
- Ula (F6b)

Dismissed:
- Divine Providence, Mont Blanc (dismissed - looks too much for me!)
- Gervasutti Pillar (too much ice!)
- NE Spur on Droites (too hardcore)
- Freney Pillar (too hardcore)
- South Ridge of the Aiguille Noire
- Salbit west ridge (cos it’s a ridge)


**I think these are all in the correct locations?
Please feel free to add further info or more suggestions
Ali

In reply to Luca Signorelli:

I bow to your greater knowledge and have put it back on the list. I also googled it and found some amazing photos. it looks superb! so thanks for the suggestion

In reply to ali k:

In the dolomites the Phillip-Flamm route (or Andrich-Fae) on the Civetta should be right up there. About 30 pitches up to about E3. Looks extremely impressive.

Also the Pilastro route on Tofana di Rozes is excellent. 20ish pitches with an aidable cux at about E3 again.

On the Wendenstock Excalibur is meant to be excellent. F6b+ I think.

In the Engelhorner (someone mentioned it above) the mega classic is Silberfinger, although I didn't think it was that good. The NE face of the Kingspitze opposite was much easier (HVS) but a better day out.

There are loads of long rock routes in the Bregaglia above Val di Mello, plus a couple of excellent routes in the valley aswell. Particularly good are Luna Nascente (in Mello) and the Via Vinci on the Cengalo, aswell as the Cassin on the Badile thats already been mentioned.

In the Wilder Kaiser the Sud-Ost Verschneidung of the Fleischbank is the mega classic.

If you don't want the Alpine pleasures of loose rock, objective danger, dodgy glaciers etc then I would scrub the following routes off the list: S pillar of the Barre des Ecrins (apparently very loose), S face of the Meije (objective danger plus alpine descent) and the Scheidegg-Wetterhorn (exposed to rockfall and long complicated alpine descent).

Finally, I don't think you should reject the W Ridge of Salbit just as its a ridge. Its one of the very best pure rock routes I've ever done. Google for images of the upper part of the ridge - its brilliant (far better than Fantasic).

In reply to Heike:
I meant Incredible rather than Fantasic on Salbit by the way.

In reply to Heike:

Thanks for this information, it's just what i'm after! Definitely not interested in loose rock, nasty descents etc so think i'll scrub them off the list.

Sounds like you've done a fair bit so if you have any more recommendations then let me know.

Cheers
Ali

In reply to ali k:
We climbed Le Chic, le Cheque, le Choc on the Petit Clocher du Portelet, which goes at ED-/6c, but I guess the route to do is the imposing Etat de Choc
http://www.camptocamp.org/routes/182781/fr/petit-clocher-du-portalet-etat-d...

Whatever route you do, the pillar is impressive!!

In reply to ali k:

So the updated list is:-

Dolomites:
- Brandler-Hasse (E5 6a/F7a+)
- Tempi Moderni (~F7a)
- The Fish (~F7b+)
- Fehrmann route, Campanile Basso, Brenta Dolomites (~VS)
- Phillip-Flamm route (or Andrich-Fae), Civetta (~E3)
- Pilastro route, Tofana di Rozes (~E3)

Italy:
- Val di Mello - Luna Nascente (F6b) and Oceano Irrazionale (F6b)
- Mellano-Perego dihedral at the Becca di Valsoera (Gran Paradiso?)
- Via Vinci, Cengalo

Chamonix:
- Grand Capucin (any recommended routes? Gulliver's travels?)
- Rebuffat, Aiguille de Midi (~E1)
- Fou south face (~F7b)
- American Direct, The Dru (E3)
- Anouk, Petites Jorasses
- Contamine, Petites Jorasses
- Marchand du Sable, S Face, Chamonix Aiguilles
- Ryan-Lochmatter, S Face, Chamonix Aiguilles
- 3 x S Face routes of the Petit Dru (Trident Pillar, Stembert Pillar, Contamine route)
- Machetto Dihedral, Tour Des Jorasses

Ariege:
- Dent D'Orlu (any recommended routes?)

Picos de Europa:
- Naranjo del Bulnes (any recommended routes?)

Switzerland:
- Motorhead, Grimselpass
- Septumania, Grimselpass
- Cassin route, Piz Badile (~E1)
- Salbit non ridge routes (any recommended routes? – ‘Incredible’?)
- Salbit West Ridge
- Wenden (any recommended routes?)
- Rätikon (any recommended routes?)
- S Ridge, Schreckhorn
- Le Chat du Chayne, Geneva Pillar, Eiger (~F7a+)
- Gletschersymphonie on Wellhorn
- Etat de Choc, Petit Clocher du Portalet (~F7a)
- Fair Hands Line, Grimsel (F6a+)
- Excalibur, Wendenstock (~F6b+)
- Kingspitze NE Face (~HVS)
- Engelhorner - Silberfinger (~F6b+)

Austria:
- Pumprisse, Wilder Kaiser
- Sud-Ost Verschneidung of the Fleischbank, Wilder Kaiser

Ecrins:
- NW ridge of Ailefroide
- Madier, Aiguille de Dibona
- Rank Zerox on Tete D'aval (f6c+/f7a. 700m.)
- Aurore Nucleare, Northface Pic Sans Nom (f6b. 500m)

Verdon Gorge:
- La Demande (F6a+)
- Ula (F6b)

Dismissed:
- Divine Providence, Mont Blanc (dismissed - looks too much for me!)
- Gervasutti Pillar (too much ice!)
- NE Spur on Droites (too hardcore)
- Freney Pillar (too hardcore)
- South Ridge of the Aiguille Noire
- S Pillar, Barre des Ecrins (loose rock)
- S Face direct of La Meije (loose rock & alpine descent)
- Scheidegg-Wetterhorn (loose rock & nasty descent)


**I think these are all in the correct locations?
Please feel free to add further info or more suggestions (particularly any i should dismiss due to excessive objective danger or long/nasty descents)
Thanks, Ali

In reply to ali k:

Ali, you're obviously a talented rock climber but in your original post you ask for a list of hard 'alpine' routes. Then you discard a load of routes that are widely considered alpine classics because they are too hard, or have loose rock or "alpine descents". Add to your list of discards pretty much all of the high-mountain stuff around Chamonix and the Ecrins because they offer more of the same. This leaves you with a list of long clip-ups and some big rock walls but isn't exactly what you'd call a list of the best of 'alpine' routes.
Don't get me wrong, there's still a load of fantastic routes left for you to go at for a few seasons, but alpine routes they ain't.

In reply to ali k:

Add these Orco Valley classics to your list. Grades are all NW Italy style (halfway between the French and British scale)

Impressioni di Settembre (Scoglio di Mroz) max 6b
http://panepera.altervista.org/Impressioni.htm

Panorama su Forzo (Ancesieu) max 7a
http://www.gulliver.it/index.php?modulo=itinerari&template=dettaglio_ph...

Diedro Nanchez (Caporal) max 6b
http://www.gulliver.it/index.php?modulo=itinerari&template=dettaglio_ph...

Fessura della Disperazione (Sergent) max 6b - short, but one of Europe greatest cracks
http://www.gulliver.it/index.php?modulo=itinerari&template=dettaglio&am...

Itaca Nel Sole + Rattle Snake (Caporal) max 6c
http://www.gulliver.it/index.php?modulo=itinerari&template=dettaglio&am...

There are dozen of other worthwhile pure rock climbs in the Orco area, including some remote and adventurous stuff. Try locate a copy of "Rock Paradise", the standard guidebook of the area.

In reply to ali k:
That's quite a list! I would probably echo the sentiments of Duncan in that on a lot of the best routes you are likely to encounter some loose rock and snowy/glacial approaches and descents. It's part of the adventure of climbing in the alps. This doesn't have to be a prohibitive factor though, just something to brush up on before you head out.

Second hand knowledge of the Grand Capucin ranks the routes:
Swiss Direct HVS + A2 or E5, this is the most popular route
O Solo Mio - E3
Gulliver's Travels E5
(They are all world class, just like a lot of the granite around Chamonix have a look at http://planetmountain.com/english/rock/routes/itineraries/home.php

I've done the Contamine on the Petit Jourasses and have descended the Dru south face. They are both excellent but TBH they are and probably not what your looking for in terms of world class rock E5-6...

In reply to Heike:

Try one of the routes in Qualido East Face.
http://team.bergfreunde.de/begehungen-expeditionen/bigwall-klettern-im-val-...


Salbit West Ridge is 30 pitches of strenous 5c to 6a. There are short sections of easier climbing in between but not much.
http://www.climberland.net/salbit/salbit_en.htm
http://www.patagonia.fi/salbit/

In reply to Duncan I:

Hi Duncan

I agree entirely with you that my list probably doesn't include any hardcore alpine routes per say. However just to clear a few things up.

I put 'alpine' in inverted commas in my original post so people would hopefully understand that I wasn't suggesting long rock routes with minimal snow approach/descent to be strictly alpine routes. Apologies if this was misunderstood.

I only dismissed one because I thought it was too hard. Divine Providence. Purely because I googled it and found it had F7b+ climbing at ~4000m and only had its 3rd O/S ascent in 2009 (i think) so thought that was biting off a bit more than I could chew for a first season!

Obviously I understand that most of the routes suggested aint gonna be roadside cragging with perfect walls of solid rock and cable-car descent. I was just asking for recommendations of routes with minimal objective dangers. As much as possible i'd like to avoid routes with notorious danger of rockfalls or long and involved approaches/descents.

This is exactly what I was after! Well...preferably more big rock walls than clip-ups. Again, apologies if this was misunderstood from my original post.

what do you mean?...this is all planned for one season

The highlight of my last trip to the alps, about 8 years ago, was a one day (yes, one day!) ascent of cosmiques arete. This also included a cable car ride at the start and end of the day, so i guess we must have been going well at the time. 'Fast and light' was our motto

Seriously though, I know it's not a list of hardcore alpine routes in the strict sense. I just wanted to put together a list of top quality long rock routes in alpine situations but with minimal 'alpine faff'(!) to make the most of my sport fitness.

Hope this clears things up. If anyone has any more suggestions that fit these criteria then i'd love to hear them...

Ali

In reply to ali k:

Gulliver's Travels, Bonatti Route or Directe des Capucins. I've done only the Swiss route but it was good, too. Gullivers Travels looked particularly excellent while abseiling. It's steep as hell.


They say Hammerbruch and Villiger Pfeiler are good.
http://www.afrank.net/Salbitschijen/index.htm

Excalibur is a good start. If you like it, try Sternschnuppe and Patent Oschner.
http://stat.ethz.ch/~dettling/excalibur.html


Galadriel, Sabra and Intifada for starters.


Engelhorner is in Swiss.

In reply to ali k:

Good, I thought that's where you were coming from. And that means that you'll be aware that there's a lot of middle ground in the high mountains as long as you're prepared for a small amount of discomfort. If you're after ~800 m of decent rock, bolt belays, and the possibility of abbing back down then I can whole-heatedly recommend a lot of Michel Piola's / Daniel Anker's routes on the south (and north) faces of the Chamonix Aiguilles that he bolted in the late 80s / early 90s. There's also loads to go at around the Capucin, Petites Jorasses and the Argentiere basin. Yes, the Piola topo is old, but it's certainly useable - the only correction you need to make is usually the gap between the glacier and the first bolt. A 50 m runout above a huge abyss is a great way to start the day and probably the hardest move you'll have to make...until you try to ab back to your sacs.
Further afield for the granite-heads, as has already been mentioned, there's great "mountain cragging" (as I call it) to be had around the Val di Mello and Bregaglia areas, and some of the routes in the Ecrins.
I've climb in various styles on most of these crags - sometimes in a more trad approach and doing the whole mountain for a great alpine experience but sometimes just for some "convenience climbing" (my quotes) where you just go out to climb 10 pitches of fantastic granite and get the last cable car back down to the bar. It's dirty but it's fun
Of the list you have so far, Motorhead was probably one of the most enjoyable rock climbs I've done and a day (okay two including the benightment) on the Dru is one of the most incredible mountain experiences I've had. The great thing about the Alps is that you can do whichever you're in the mood for.

In reply to ali k:

Some comments on Switzerland. I have to say that I'm not very familiar with the British grading system. But when you say that you lead up to E6 trad, I guess you will be able to climb up to "alpine" F7c. You have to know that most good "alpine" multipitch climbs are bolted in Switzerland. The bolts are usually more spaced than at a crag, and placing a few pieces of gear is sometimes required.

You have to go to Wenden: Excalibur is a good introduction. Hard 6b, more 6c-ish in my opinion, and placing gear is required. Other very popular climbs, i.e. must-do's are: Sternschnuppe (6c+) or Patent Ochsner (7a) and Caminando (7a+). A few more recommendations: Lancelot (7a), Blaue Lagune (7b+), Elefantenohr (7c+), Rockmantic (7b+), ... to name but a few - all routes at Wenden are excellent.

Spending a few days at Salbit is also very recommended. The best face routes are IMHO: GKG (7a), Hammerbruch (6b), Härzbaragge (7a+) and Villiger-Pfeiler (6b). The West Ridge is famous and popular, and that for a reason. It's not ridge scrambling, but real climbing, and long! The south ridge goes at about 5c, but is also very worthwhile.

A stay at Rätikon is for sure worthwhile, too: the most popular routes are Galadriel (6c+), Sabra (7a), Intifada (7a+) and Mangold (6c). Harder options include Hannibals Alptraum (7c, runout!), Armacord (7b+, runout), Schatila (7c). The modern routes are all good!

At Eiger, Chant du Cygne (7a) has already been mentioned - impressing route with mostly good rock and a few loose sections. But it can be considered as alpine sport climbing and is safe. Excellent rock but much harder and runout climbing is to be had in Deep Blue Sea (7b+). If you have the level, go for it. In the south face, Märmelibahn (6c) is also an unforgettable adventure, but maybe it doesn't belong to Europes top 10 list.

Don't miss out on a route at Wellhorn. Gletschersymphonie (6c+) has been mentioned already. But in fact, all routes at Wellhorn are similar, and all are very good. Thus, you could also do either Chaosparadies (6c+), Aura (7a), Miracolo (7a) or Adlerauge (6b+). The Engelhörner are just opposite of Wellhorn: Silberfinger (6c) is good but short, Kadenz (7a) can also be very much recommended. I also enjoyed Schmunzelrunzel (6c) much.

There's lots of granite climbing near Grimsel, Furka and Nufenen pass. I would recommend to do a route at Eldorado. Motörhead (6a+) is a big classic and has relatively little in-situ gear. Septumania (6a+) is a relatively easy slab climb, and there are 10-15 more routes at Eldorado which are a bit harder (up to 7a), but all in similar style. Make sure you do at least 1 route there, and if you like it, another one. But then, it might get repetitive.

The best climbing at Furka pass is to be had at Graue Wand: some of the best routes are Conquest (7a) and Eisbrecher (6b+). At Nufenen pass, Torre di Ruino holds a few very good and steep crack climbs. However, they are relatively short with only 5-6 pitches. A worthwhile outing, but not among the top 10 in Europe.

The region around Klausen pass is not very well known on an international scale, but it holds many good limestone climbs. You may wanna try Härzbluet (7a) or Kamasutra (7b+) at Chli Glatten, or Nirvana (7a) at Hinter Glatten. Also the Churfirsten hold a few gems, I would most recommend Chico Mendez (7a) for a nice adventure.

The Cassin route at Badile is a must-do. Petit Clocher du Portalet is supposed to be good - never been there, so I can't give any advice. Schreckhorn south ridge is very nice and worthwile, but be aware that this is more mountaineering than rock climbing.

As a guidebook, the one from www.topoguide.de could serve you very well. It's a selection guidebook covering the "best" "alpine" rock climbs in the alps, from France over Switzerland to Germany and Austria, including also the Dolomites and the region around Lake Garda in Italy.

In reply to ali k:

I can't believe you are dismissing this cos it's a ridge. You have no idea! It is on ridge, but it is by no means a ridge "walk" as indicated in your original post, it's one of my favourite alpine climbs and I have done quite a few of those on your list....Brilliant climbing all the way.

In reply to Heike:

Don't worry, it's back on the list! I just (wrongly) assumed from a few photos i looked at that it was a ridge climb/scramble. i'm just not into those climb a bit...abseil...climb a bit more...abseil type ridge stuff. sounds like this one should definitely be on the list though.

In reply to luketheape:

No it isn't... it as E1 and A0 or E2/3 free... the aid pitch goes free at f6b+idh.

Have you... when? We descended the west ridge!

To the OP: I've done a route most of the way up the south face of the Dru. The climbing was amenable at: f6a+ and A1, but the granite was very solid and gave superb trad climbing - in the sun all day.

The alps is awesome... have a blast.

HTH

In reply to ali k:
Am reading from your discussion with Duncan that you're tending towards pitching on dry, pristine rock (cf moving together sections), no or only small rucsac, all day in rock boots, big boots at the base not on your back, ideally with equipped stances and rap descents. I think of this as 'mountain cragging', definitely not 'alpine'

You've really got enough suggestions already for many season's worth of action particularly since, as you've not done this style of route before, I reckon your tastes will change after you've done a few of them. e.g. you might get interested in something a bit more alpine in nature or yearn for a bit more adventure.

Ultra classic, but invariably horridly crowded in peak season. Loads of other routes to do on S face Midi instead. Not very long. Risk of circus atmosphere.

You'd probably only do one of these in a season. Contamine more traditional (V+) has snow patches early in season, Anouk (F6c+, fully bolted) and ab back down route.


Grade F6a+, E1/2.
Excellent route, but just one of many classics around the Envers des Aigullies. Reckon this place would be right up your street. Buy the Piola guidebook (new 2008, in English), there is probably a lifetime of great routes to do in this area alone. Slightly harder, two classics are Fleur du Mal (F6b+/c) and Dracula (F6c). Trad with bolts on blanker sections. Ab descents generally. A place where it's more about the climbing than the summit. Republique Bananiere up the Aiguille de Republique is there too - by all acounts a modern mega-classic 27? pitches, F6c+ (but easier obligatory grade)


If this recommendation was for the Lochmatter route on the Aig du Plan, I don't think it's for you. (Grade - D, V, VS-ish). Excellent mountaineering route. Some scrappy rock on terraces, and a long walk off (the Midi-plan traverse)

Other Chamonix - the slab routes on the Peigne are excellent - Le Ticket... (E3), Dimanche Noir (E4). Also around on the R side "Le Maillon Manquant" (near Vaucher Route) 50m, F6b+/6c) has fully equipped stances.

Then there's all the other stuff on the N side of the Aiguilles - Crowdier Pillar (oops Cordier), and surely you'd wantto pay hommage to Joe Brown on the British Route on W Fae of Blatiere?


A briliant alpine route, but well to dismiss. Horrid descent - you'd not believe something so loose could be so steep! Plus mostly moving together on the way up.


In Austria, also add the Directissima on S Face of Dachstein. It's about 800m, VII- (E2/3). Cable car down from top if you climb fast enough (we didn't)

In reply to ali k:

The updated monday morning list is:-

Dolomites:
- Brandler-Hasse (E5 6a/F7a+)
- Tempi Moderni (~F7a)
- The Fish (~F7b+)
- Fehrmann route, Campanile Basso, Brenta Dolomites (~VS)
- Phillip-Flamm route (or Andrich-Fae), Civetta (~E3)
- Pilastro route, Tofana di Rozes (~E3)

Italy:
- Val di Mello - Luna Nascente (F6b) and Oceano Irrazionale (F6b)
- Val di Mello - Mt. Qualido East face (any recommended routes?)
- Perego dihedral at the Becca di Valsoera (Gran Paradiso?)
- Via Vinci, Cengalo
- Impressioni di Settembre (Scoglio di Mroz), Orco Valley (~6b)
- Panorama su Forzo (Ancesieu), Orco Valley (~7a)
- Diedro Nanchez (Caporal), Orco Valley (~6b)
- Fessura della Disperazione (Sergent), Orco Valley (~6b) - short, but one of Europe greatest cracks
- Itaca Nel Sole + Rattle Snake (Caporal), Orco Valley (~6c)

Chamonix:
- Grand Capucin (Swiss Direct, O Solo Mio, Gulliver's travels, Bonatti Route, Directe des Capucins)
- Rebuffat, Aiguille de Midi (~E1)
- Fou south face (~F7b)
- American Direct, The Dru (E3)
- Anouk, Petites Jorasses (~F6c+)
- Contamine, Petites Jorasses
- Envers des Aiguilles - Marchand du Sable (F6a+ E1/2), Fleur du Mal (F6b+/c), Dracula (F6c)
- Aiguille de Republique - Republique Bananiere (F6c+ 27 pitches)
- Slab routes on the Peigne - Le Ticket (E3), Dimanche Noir (E4)
- 3 x S Face routes of the Petit Dru (Trident Pillar, Stembert Pillar, Contamine route)
- Machetto Dihedral, Tour Des Jorasses

Ariege:
- Dent D'Orlu (any recommended routes?)

Picos de Europa:
- Naranjo del Bulnes (any recommended routes?)

Switzerland:
- Grimsel - Motorhead (F6a+), Septumania (F6a+), Fair Hands Line (F6a+)
- Cassin route, Piz Badile (~E1)
- Salbit non ridge routes - Incredible, Hammerbruch (F6b), Villiger-Pfeiler (F6b), GKG (F7a), Harzbaragge (F7a+)
- Salbit West Ridge
- Wenden - Excalibur (F6b+), Sternschnuppe (F6c+), Patent Oschner (F7a), Caminando (F7a+), Lancelot (7a)
- Rätikon - Galadriel (F6c+), Sabra (F7a), Intifada (F7a+), Mangold (F6c)
- Chant du Cgyne, Geneva Pillar, Eiger (~F7a+)
- Wellhorn - Gletschersymphonie (F6c+), Chaosparadies (6c+), Aura (7a), Miracolo (7a), Adlerauge (6b+)
- Etat de Choc, Petit Clocher du Portalet (~F7a)
- Kingspitze NE Face (~HVS)
- Engelhorner - Silberfinger (~F6b+), Kadenz (7a), Schmunzelrunzel (6c)

Austria:
- Pumprisse, Wilder Kaiser
- Sud-Ost Verschneidung of the Fleischbank, Wilder Kaiser
- Directissima - S Face of Dachstein (800m E2/3)

Ecrins:
- NW ridge of Ailefroide
- Madier, Aiguille de Dibona
- Rank Zerox on Tete D'aval (f6c+/f7a. 700m.)
- Aurore Nucleare, Northface Pic Sans Nom (f6b. 500m)

Verdon Gorge:
- La Demande (F6a+)
- Ula (F6b)

Dismissed:
- Divine Providence, Mont Blanc (dismissed - looks too much for me!)
- Gervasutti Pillar (too much ice!)
- NE Spur on Droites (too hardcore)
- Freney Pillar (too hardcore)
- South Ridge of the Aiguille Noire
- S Pillar, Barre des Ecrins (loose rock)
- S Face direct of La Meije (loose rock & alpine descent)
- Scheidegg-Wetterhorn (loose rock & nasty descent)
- S Ridge, Schreckhorn (mountaineering!)
- Ryan-Lochmatter, S Face, Chamonix Aiguilles (mountaineering and long walk off?)


**I think these are all in the correct locations?
Please feel free to add further info or more suggestions (particularly any i should dismiss due to excessive objective danger or long/nasty descents)
Thanks, Ali

In reply to ali k:

>Chamonix:
>- Grand Capucin (Swiss Direct, O Solo Mio, Gulliver's travels, Bonatti Route, Directe des Capucins)

For my money the Bonatti looks the best line, though Gulliver's seems to have a similarly good rep, with O Sole Mio not far behind. Swiss is the easiest and hence most popular, the Directe has a lot of off-widths, likely icy higher and is understandably less popular.

In reply to ali k: In reply to ali k: You can dismiss NW Ridge/Spur (Devies-Gervasutti) of the Ailefroide as well: long descent, looseish rock, icy chimneys, waterfalls, a little rockfall. Brilliant route though.
Things on the Aiguille de Sialouze eg. La Diagonale de Fou might be more what you're after. (Ecrins)

Also the S.Face of the Marmolada in the Dolomites, can recommend Don Quixote (E1ish) but there's also the harder stuff like Tempi Moderni or the Fish.

Also other stuff in Pyrenees eg. routes on the Pombie Wall on Pic du Midi D'Ossau or the Aiguille D'Ansabere nr. Lescun.

In reply to ali k:

- 3 x S Face routes of the Petit Dru (Trident Pillar, Stembert Pillar, Contamine route)

They're actually on the Grand Dru, not the petit.

- The Fish (~F7b+)

Good article here: http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/Community/Articles/BenHeason-TheFish/

The Cassin on the Badile is superb, but has a hideous descent down the ridge - take trainers.

I didn't do this, but if you climb the bolted route on the right, Another Day in Paradise, you can abseil back down it. If going again I would do ADIP on day one and rap back down. On day two I would do the Cassin, but rap down ADIP.

I've not done it, but the Comici Route (E3) and the Yellow Edge (E1) are right at the top of my Dolomites ticklist.

HTH

In reply to ali k:

Has to be Piz Badille, Grand Capucin and The Dru

In reply to ali k: As sgl said, you should add Diagonale de Fou on the Aiguille de Sialouze onto your list, 400m, 7a on excellent granite.

In reply to Cellinski:

This is a good point. You should only lead grades you feel very comfortable with in places like Wenden or Wellhorn or Rätikon.

I have a friend who could do 8b sport but fell on the last pitch of Sabra (7a) because he was too tired (mostly in the head). He was scared on both, the 5c and the 6b pitches. The 5c had three bolts in 50 meters and the 6b had four bolts in 50 meters. I've climbed 7c sport but I usually lead 6c max while on mountains. The people who climb harder than 7a in those places are very few.

What an enjoyable thread
I'm starting to warm to the mountain cragging vibe and firstly would echo what's been said about the S Face of the Chamonix Aiguilles: The Ryan-Lochmatter certainly ain't for you but as Tony says there's a stack of similar routes around Marchand du Sable - we did three in one evening and following day.
The Brown Route has suffered a major rockfall and is free at about E4 from what I've heard from some who thugged his way up it several years ago. I've done the alternative start and it gives a good outing at about solid E1 for several pitches of cracks and offwidths. There's loads of other routes on the W Face of the Blaitiere but, of the eight that I've done many years ago, none really stick in my mind. Another must-do route just around the corner is the Ticket (etc) on the Peine as some helpful chap called Tom (Ripley?) has marked out on here:
http://www.wikitopo.com/crag.php?cragId=37 and a remember a couple of other good ones on there too (Aquaplaning?)

Over the Mer de Glace, there's also a load of multipitch fun around the Charpoua hut that's not in any guidebook (that I know of) but good topos exist in the hut and the OHM. Specifically on the Eveque (Emininence Grise at about F6b from what I remember) and another load of stuff on the Flammes du Pierre.
And yes Cassin Ridge / Mr Ripley, it is perfectly possible to ab the S Face of the Dru as I did it in a storm a few years ago and there's tat all the way down.

And over again in the Argentiere Basin there's a whole summer's worth of stuff 30-40 mins above the hut around the Minaret and the Yatagan.

Speaking of the (real) Cassin Ridge, Piz Badile has some fantastic lines on the NE face - I've done "Another Day in Paradise" which is a run-out E2 that you ab back down and there's several others to go at too. It's the left-facing one on the right in this piccie:
http://www.summitpost.org/view_object.php?object_id=344693
The peak on the left is Piz Cengalo which has an awesome line straight up its NW ridge but I can't remember why it's out of fashion - anyone?
Here's some action on the route itself:
http://www.summitpost.org/route/542741/another-day-in-paradise.html
Tom's good advice to do ADIP first so you get a recce of the abseil descent is an oft-used itinerary to get both routes in one hit.

Having just perused Extreme Alpine Rock, it may be of interest to compare and contrast it with the list that is forming in this thread. Bob Wightman (who upset him? I've not seen him on here for ages) comes up with the goods as usual on http://www.bobwightman.co.uk/climb/extreme_alpine_rock.php )
Most of them are in the discounted section on the list so maybe it's time for an Alpine Cragging Funbook ticklist?

And as for the discards, I would quibble over the S Face of the Meije being perceived as any looser than anything else talked about here...and it's perfectly feasible to ab back down the route. Arnaud G will be along soon to discuss the pros/cons of each method of getting off the Meije, I've yet to get more than half way up it and not for want of trying so I can't really add to it. Suffice to say that there's several bolted beside the Allain route on that face. And how come we've left out the Dibona? It's a bit on the short side with routes not much more than 300-400m but they epitomise mountain cragging with the Voie des Savoyardes being a fine example ( http://www.summitpost.org/route/375125/voie-des-savoyardes.html ) of a few dozen worth your attention. It must be all of 5 minutes from the hut!

In reply to adnix:

Thanks for the advice. Don't worry, I fully intend to start off easy and work my way up to harder things...or more likely, start off easy and then get scared and do something even easier!

In reply to ali k:

The updated monday evening list is:-

Dolomites:
- Brandler-Hasse (E5 6a/F7a+)
- Comici Route (E3)
- Yellow Edge (E1)
- Marmolada S Face - Don Quixote (~E1), Tempi Moderni (~F7a), The Fish (F7b+)
- Fehrmann route, Campanile Basso, Brenta Dolomites (~VS)
- Phillip-Flamm route (or Andrich-Fae), Civetta (~E3)
- Pilastro route, Tofana di Rozes (~E3)

Italy:
- Val di Mello - Luna Nascente (F6b) and Oceano Irrazionale (F6b)
- Val di Mello - Mt. Qualido East face (any recommended routes?)
- Perego dihedral at the Becca di Valsoera (Gran Paradiso?)
- Via Vinci, Cengalo
- Impressioni di Settembre (Scoglio di Mroz), Orco Valley (~6b)
- Panorama su Forzo (Ancesieu), Orco Valley (~7a)
- Diedro Nanchez (Caporal), Orco Valley (~6b)
- Fessura della Disperazione (Sergent), Orco Valley (~6b) - short, but one of Europe greatest cracks
- Itaca Nel Sole + Rattle Snake (Caporal), Orco Valley (~6c)

Chamonix:
- Grand Capucin - Bonatti Route (E?), Gulliver's travels (E5?), O Solo Mio (E3?), Swiss Direct (E2/3?)
- Rebuffat, Aiguille de Midi (~E1)
- Fou south face (~F7b)
- American Direct, The Dru (E3)
- Anouk, Petites Jorasses (~F6c+)
- Contamine, Petites Jorasses
- Envers des Aiguilles - Marchand du Sable (F6a+ E1/2), Fleur du Mal (F6b+/c), Dracula (F6c)
- Aiguille de Republique - Republique Bananiere (F6c+ 27 pitches)
- Slab routes on the Aiguille du Peigne - Le Ticket (E3), Dimanche Noir (E4)
- 3 x S Face routes of the Grand Dru (Trident Pillar, Stembert Pillar, Contamine route)
- Machetto Dihedral, Tour Des Jorasses

Pyrenees:
- Dent D'Orlu (any recommended routes?)
- Pombie Wall on Pic du Midi D'Ossau
- Aiguille D'Ansabere nr. Lescun

Picos de Europa:
- Naranjo del Bulnes (any recommended routes?)

Switzerland:
- Grimsel - Motorhead (F6a+), Septumania (F6a+), Fair Hands Line (F6a+)
- Piz Badile - Cassin route (~E1), Another Day in Paradise (~E2)
- Salbit non ridge routes - Incredible, Hammerbruch (F6b), Villiger-Pfeiler (F6b), GKG (F7a), Harzbaragge (F7a+)
- Salbit West Ridge (~6a? E?)
- Wenden - Excalibur (F6b+), Sternschnuppe (F6c+), Patent Oschner (F7a), Caminando (F7a+), Lancelot (7a)
- Rätikon - Galadriel (F6c+), Sabra (F7a), Intifada (F7a+), Mangold (F6c)
- Chant du Cgyne, Geneva Pillar, Eiger (~F7a+)
- Wellhorn - Gletschersymphonie (F6c+), Chaosparadies (6c+), Aura (7a), Miracolo (7a), Adlerauge (6b+)
- Etat de Choc, Petit Clocher du Portalet (~F7a)
- Kingspitze NE Face (~HVS)
- Engelhorner - Silberfinger (~F6b+), Kadenz (7a), Schmunzelrunzel (6c)

Austria:
- Pumprisse, Wilder Kaiser
- Sud-Ost Verschneidung of the Fleischbank, Wilder Kaiser
- Directissima - S Face of Dachstein (800m E2/3)

Ecrins:
- Aiguille de Dibona - Madier, Voie des Savoyardes
- Rank Zerox on Tete D'aval (f6c+/f7a. 700m.)
- Aurore Nucleare, Northface Pic Sans Nom (f6b. 500m)
- Aiguille de Sialouze - La Diagonale de Fou (400m 7a)

Verdon Gorge:
- La Demande (F6a+)
- Ula (F6b)

Dismissed:
- Divine Providence, Mont Blanc (dismissed - looks too much for me!)
- Gervasutti Pillar (too much ice!)
- NE Spur on Droites (too hardcore)
- Freney Pillar (too hardcore)
- South Ridge of the Aiguille Noire
- S Pillar, Barre des Ecrins (loose rock)
- S Face direct of La Meije (loose rock & alpine descent)
- Scheidegg-Wetterhorn (loose rock & nasty descent)
- S Ridge, Schreckhorn (mountaineering!)
- Ryan-Lochmatter, S Face, Chamonix Aiguilles (mountaineering and long walk off?)
- NW ridge of Ailefroide (long descent, loose rock, ice chimneys)


**I think these are all in the correct locations?
Please feel free to add further info or more suggestions (particularly any i should dismiss due to excessive objective danger or long/nasty descents)
Thanks, Ali

In reply to Duncan I:

You better not come and clog up my routes this summer now after you dismissed them as "dirty mountain cragging". stick to yer alpine choss piles


Don't worry, it's on the list.

Thanks for the info.

In reply to ali k:

If you are around in Ailefroide for some of your other options (the Diagonal du Fou, Aurore Nuclaire etc) and have a half day free, you could do worse than do La Vie Devant Soi. Couple of hundred metres long, about 13 pitches, loads of granite slab padding to (in theory) 6b+ (I thought easier), bolted with an abseil descent. My mates who live out there thought it the best route of its grade of the Ailefroide bolted multipitch. Not trad (although I suppose neither is a lot of the other stuff on your list), but enjoyable nevertheless.

AJM

In reply to ali k:

Just caught up with that thread after a Duncan I pointed it out. I just skimed through it so appologies if what I say has already been addressed.

On the topic of loose rock, the Ecrins is all about loose rock management. Except on the Dibona.

On that one, I would stay clear of la Madier. It is a classic but completely over crowded. At the level you're climbing I'd look at the routes next to it on the same face. Lots of harder less busy routes on good rock.

The S face of the Meije is not bad by Ecrins standards a lot better than the S face of the Barre in any case. The Allain-Leininger is an absolutely stunning route that encompass all aspects of alpine rock climbing. Long route, time consuming descent (the traverse of the aretes is a must but contengency plan is required when arriving in the "wrong" valley at dusk), route finding challenge, fantastic climbing and scenery. The rock is only questionable over a few pitches in the top third of the route.
There's also lots of other routes on that face that are more "sporty" such as La Chevauchee des Vaches qui Ripent (800 m 6b) which are worth a look.

Aurore Nucleaire looks like a cracker. However it's only half a route in the sense that it does not top out, which I feel is a large part of alpinism.

I know you're shying away from loose rock but the Gervasutti route on the N face of the Ailefroide looks like an absolute marvel of an adventure. I came very close to doing it on the same summer I did the Meije. That was in 2003 when the summer was so dry that there was hardly any ice keeping the mountain together (and Chamonix was not spared) so we backed off to another loose horror show which was a bit more forgiving, but on a normal year it shouldn't be too bad.

In reply to ArnaudG:

Well thats a fantastic list, unfortunbately probalby only two (Yellow Edge and Cassin are within my abilites! Off to do Yellow edge in Jul and Casssin in Aug.

Is it time for a similar list up to E1?

Gary.

In reply to ali k:

For Austria you could include routes such as:

Locker vom Hocker, Schüsselkarspitze, VIII, FA Kurt Albert and Wolfgang Güllich
Rainer/Aschenbrenner, Schüsselkarspitze, VII
Bayerischer Traum, Schüsselkarspitze, VIII-
Mythomania, Fleischbank, VIII
Dülfer Route, Totenkirchl, VI+
Gloria Patri, Hochkönig, VI+
Freier als Paul Preuss, Großer Bratschenkopf (Hochkönig Massif), VII-

The Pumprisse are incidentally on the Fleischbank Pillar, to the right of the main east face of the Fleischbank.

In reply to Removed User:

A few of the routes listed there do not require high level of technical ability. I did the Meije when I was climbing E1/2. More important is being quick, confortable enough on the easier ground between the hard bits to move together (running belays), have a good route finding and generaly being proficient in the mountains.

La Madier is probably HVS. The Rebuffat on the aig du midi is very non-comitting being a throw stone away from the teleph' and the hard steps can probably be aided if you get stuck. The Contamine route is not too hard but quite remote.
You probably should start another thread for a D/TD list of climbs.

In reply to ArnaudG:

I will, I will get out the guidebooks tonight. I have done lots in the Dollies afew in the Bregalia and some in the Alps.

Will kick off the list tomorrow.

Gary.

In reply to Removed User: Good stuff, I'll look forward to that!

In reply to ArnaudG:

hmmm...not sure i'm liking the sound of that! think i'd rather stick to steeper, harder, (hopefully) more solid stuff.

Any recommended ones?

In reply to alex_th:

thanks for those. keep them coming!

I've just added all the places on my list onto a personalised google map thingy for a clearer itinerary (i didn't know where half the places were...and yes it's raining here!). it makes a satisfying and logical route from spain to austria with plenty to go at in between so it's just what i was after!

now all i need to do is find enough people interested in doing some of the harder stuff on the list...

In reply to ali k:

The most celebrated routes on the Dent d'Orlu are very long (nearly 1000m and sustained) and very clean but generally are fully bolted.
The classic testpieces are probably Les Enfants de la Dalle (940m, 25 pitches, 6a+) and Durendalle (930m, 24 pitches, 6b), both on the South-East Face. Note that these are both slabby routes so the grades are likely to feel harder than similarly-graded steeper pitches. The guide reckons 8 hours or so of climbing for each but that means leading and seconding each 30-40m pitch in just 20 minutes so you would have to be finding the climbing very easy to do it in that time.

Plenty of other big routes to choose from though, mostly bolted but some only semi-equipped, including easier and harder options.

All topos are online at http://cafma.free.fr/Orlu/fr_orlu.htm

Plenty of other major routes around here too, particularly on 400m limestone Sinsat but also on various high granite faces. There are plenty of trad or semi-equipped routes but the harder ones tend to be bolted. Must rectify that one day by putting up some hard trad stuff! See http://cafma.free.fr/plan.htm for topos.

John
http://www.chezarran.com

In reply to ali k:
On the Dibona "Visite Obligatoire" is reccomended but I've never done it.
I'll check my guide for you later.
sjm

In reply to alex_th:

These are in Wetterstein:


These are in Wilder Kaiser:


And these are in Hochkönig:

In reply to ali k:

The Verdon list is very short. Try these

Ticket Danger 6a+
Surveiller et Punir 7a+
La Fete des Nerfs 7a+

In reply to sjminfife:
Just looked it up "Visite Obligatoire" is TD+ 6a max 5+6 oblige 300m
It's in Cambon as having good gear and being a great route.
I'm sure I saw a write up in Vertical about it.
sjm

In reply to sjminfife:
Visite Obligatoire is a good route, Savoyardes is fantastic and I can also recommend the two round the east side - "Martine is on the Rocks" and the one next to that are both about 6a+/6b ish and 300 m. I've heard good reports about the routes on the peak further up the glacier from the Dibona but have never had the motivation to walk-in more than 10 minutes at this particular venue as it's so well-endowed with fantastic climbing.
I think the Dibona is so cool that we have a 4ft framed poster of it above our dining table and I make my children recite the route names and first ascensionists every breakfast time.

In reply to Duncan I: I feel I'm about to be banned from UKC but I think the Dibona IS the finest granite I have ever climbed on. We did "Routes des Nains" plus a bit of the Boell up to the Boell ledges.I've never done any of the harder routes but would love to if I get fit again.
I think you have an excellent approcah to parenting,if children must be heard then at least make it worth listening to!!
But I'm biased,I love the Ecrins.
sjm

In reply to ali k:

The updated Wednesday morning list is:-

Dolomites:
- Brandler-Hasse (E5 6a/F7a+)
- Comici Route (E3)
- Yellow Edge (E1)
- Marmolada S Face - Don Quixote (~E1), Tempi Moderni (~F7a), The Fish (F7b+)
- Fehrmann route, Campanile Basso, Brenta Dolomites (~VS)
- Phillip-Flamm route (or Andrich-Fae), Civetta (~E3)
- Pilastro route, Tofana di Rozes (~E3)

Italy:
- Val di Mello - Luna Nascente (F6b) and Oceano Irrazionale (F6b)
- Val di Mello - Mt. Qualido East face (any recommended routes?)
- Mellano-Perego dihedral at the Becca di Valsoera (Gran Paradiso)
- Via Vinci, Cengalo
- Impressioni di Settembre (Scoglio di Mroz), Orco Valley (~6b)
- Panorama su Forzo (Ancesieu), Orco Valley (~7a)
- Diedro Nanchez (Caporal), Orco Valley (~6b)
- Fessura della Disperazione (Sergent), Orco Valley (~6b) - short, but one of Europe greatest cracks
- Itaca Nel Sole + Rattle Snake (Caporal), Orco Valley (~6c)

Chamonix:
- Grand Capucin - Bonatti Route (E?), Gulliver's travels (E5?), O Solo Mio (E3?), Swiss Direct (E2/3?)
- Rebuffat, Aiguille de Midi (~E1)
- Fou south face (~F7b)
- American Direct, The Dru (E3)
- Anouk, Petites Jorasses (~F6c+)
- Contamine, Petites Jorasses
- Envers des Aiguilles - Marchand du Sable (F6a+ E1/2), Fleur du Mal (F6b+/c), Dracula (F6c)
- Aiguille de Republique - Republique Bananiere (F6c+ 27 pitches)
- Slab routes on the Aiguille du Peigne - Le Ticket (E3), Dimanche Noir (E4)
- 3 x S Face routes of the Grand Dru (Trident Pillar, Stembert Pillar, Contamine route)
- Machetto Dihedral, Tour Des Jorasses

Pyrenees:
- Dent D'Orlu - Les Enfants de la Dalle (940m, 25 pitches, 6a+), Durendalle (930m, 24 pitches, 6b) on the South-East Face)
- Pombie Wall on Pic du Midi D'Ossau
- Aiguille D'Ansabere nr. Lescun

Picos de Europa:
- Naranjo del Bulnes (any recommended routes?)

Switzerland:
- Grimsel - Motorhead (F6a+), Septumania (F6a+), Fair Hands Line (F6a+)
- Piz Badile - Cassin route (~E1), Another Day in Paradise (~E2)
- Salbit non ridge routes - Incredible, Hammerbruch (F6b), Villiger-Pfeiler (F6b), GKG (F7a), Harzbaragge (F7a+)
- Salbit West Ridge (~6a? E?)
- Wenden - Excalibur (F6b+), Sternschnuppe (F6c+), Patent Oschner (F7a), Caminando (F7a+), Lancelot (7a)
- Rätikon - Galadriel (F6c+), Sabra (F7a), Intifada (F7a+), Mangold (F6c)
- Chant du Cgyne, Geneva Pillar, Eiger (~F7a+)
- Wellhorn - Gletschersymphonie (F6c+), Chaosparadies (6c+), Aura (7a), Miracolo (7a), Adlerauge (6b+)
- Etat de Choc, Petit Clocher du Portalet (~F7a)
- Kingspitze NE Face (~HVS)
- Engelhorner - Silberfinger (~F6b+), Kadenz (7a), Schmunzelrunzel (6c)

Austria:
- Wilder Kaiser - Pumprisse (Fleischbank Pillar), Mythomania (Fleischbank), Dülfer Route (Totenkirchl), Sud-Ost Verschneidung (Fleischbank)
- Directissima - S Face of Dachstein (800m E2/3)
- Schüsselkarspitze - Locker vom Hocker, Rainer/Aschenbrenner, Bayerischer Traum
- Hochkönig - Gloria Patri, Freier als Paul Preuss (Großer Bratschenkopf)

Ecrins:
- Aiguille de Dibona - Madier, Voie des Savoyardes, Visite Obligatoire (6a max), Martine is on the Rocks (6a+/b)
- Rank Zerox on Tete D'aval (f6c+/f7a. 700m.)
- Aurore Nucleare, Northface Pic Sans Nom (f6b. 500m)
- Aiguille de Sialouze - La Diagonale de Fou (400m 7a)
- Ailefroide - La Vie Devant Soi (13 pitches F6b+)

Verdon Gorge:
- La Demande (F6a+)
- Ula (F6b)
- Ticket Danger 6a+
- Surveiller et Punir 7a+
- La Fete des Nerfs 7a+


Dismissed:
- Divine Providence, Mont Blanc (dismissed - looks too much for me!)
- Gervasutti Pillar (too much ice!)
- NE Spur on Droites (too hardcore)
- Freney Pillar (too hardcore)
- South Ridge of the Aiguille Noire
- S Pillar, Barre des Ecrins (loose rock)
- S Face direct of La Meije (loose rock & alpine descent)
- Scheidegg-Wetterhorn (loose rock & nasty descent)
- S Ridge, Schreckhorn (mountaineering!)
- Ryan-Lochmatter, S Face, Chamonix Aiguilles (mountaineering and long walk off?)
- NW ridge of Ailefroide (long descent, loose rock, ice chimneys)


** This feels like quite a comprehensive list now and definitely enough for one season!!! However if you do have any more information then please feel free to add more on. Particularly any missing route grades or areas with no recommended routes (Mt. Qualido East face, Naranjo de Bulnes)
Thanks, Ali

In reply to ali k:
Ailefroide has some great easier routes like
Palavar les Flottes 400m D- 5+ with good bolts
Orage D'etoiles 300m D+ 5+ with good bolts
Both have exposed abseil descents and Palavar has a couple of hanging
stances if I remember.We only managed half of Orage as my mate and I take it year about to "crock out" during the trip "age" "knees" "toes" etc.
sjm

In reply to ali k: Salbit West Ridge is F6b, ~E2/3, ~32 pitches. South Ridge looks awesome at around HVS. Incredible is F6a, HVS/E1, 6 pitches and excellent.

In reply to ali k: Hi Ali! That is quite a ticklist! Hope you are well mate and you get at least some of that lot done!!

Let me know next time you are in my neck of the woods, we could do some routes (if its not raining)...

Dan

In reply to ali k:

Qualido East Face: Magic Line 700m, 6b/A1 or 7c free is one of the easiest lines, the rest are harder.

Here you have some more info:
http://www.orme.tv/portfolio/magicline/index2.html
http://www.belclimb.net/article-details.asp?lgid=2&artID=449&sid=1
http://www.paolo-sonja.net/qualido/

In reply to ali k: I see you have La Vie Devant Soi, Ecrins on your list, which is an excellent route. However given the grade you climb at you might be better to do Voie de Maitres which is close by and goes at 6c+ and is probably as good/better.
If you are going to Ailefroide in the Ecrins I can do you some cheap accomodation, check my profile page.