/ PRODUCT NEWS: VIDEO: Dragon Cam versus Weight of Medium Sized Car

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[DMM Dragon Cam in cut boulder, 2 kb]There is nothing like seeing theory in practice to fully appreciate the facts and figures behind how well a product works.

DMM's Technical Director, Fred Hall, had the idea of cutting a parallel sided slot out of a 1.38 tonne boulder, placing a Dragon Cam 5 in the slots and then lifting the boulder via the Dragon Cam. Watch the video.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=2542

Tom_Harding - on 02 Mar 2010
In reply to UKC Gear:

Intresting but not really suprissing, that is their specification.

There looking really good though, just a real shame thay had to make a compramise regarding aid climbing. I have been looking at the american sites and there is a genral concensus of - no thumb loop, no good for aiding.

Shame i would love to own a set.
In reply to UKC Gear:

Quite mpressive, especially as it looked slightly undercammed - I would have gone for the next size (half size?) up!

Chris
Hardonicus - on 02 Mar 2010
In reply to Chris Craggs: That slot don't look parallel.
In reply to Tom_Harding: Presumably if you really wanted, you could just larks foot a loop of 5mm cord around the stem above the thumb rest, and use that to clip in short. It only has to hold body weight after all.
In reply to UKC Gear: I'm impressed by how strong the little forklift is!
Jody - on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to TobyA:

Very impressive video.

Interesting that they have changed the sling eyelet to a dual ring configuration. I wonder if the old version was too close to the Camalots (i.e. infringing patents).
Gripped - on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to Jody: From speaking to a gear shop I understand that the dyneema slings were breaking under load with the thumb loop. It would be interesting to know from DMM?

I think a lack of a thumb loop is a drawback, for me anyway. Thumb loops are good for aid and also I find a thumb loop makes them easier to place both summer and winter with a glove on.
feeblesmith - on 03 Mar 2010
It was the other way around, the thumbloops were breaking, not the slings.
gethin_allen on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to Gripped:
if you search around there's a massive thread about this very thing. Simon Marsh from DMM said the the dyneema was cutting through the wire loop at about 10 kn so it had to be changed. As far as i know the BD patent has expired now.
Gripped - on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to gethin_allen: cheers!
jkarran - on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to Tom_Harding:

> Shame i would love to own a set.

Are you doing a lot of aiding? Can you not just knot in some 3mm cord?
jk
GrahamD - on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to jkarran:

Thumb loop or otherwise a total red herring to me. When I need (?) a new cam, I'll go into a shop and play with a DMM Dragon and if I prefer the feel to my existing Camalots and WC Friends I'll buy and if not I won't. It seems silly to pre-judge.
seaofdreams - on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to Gripped:

I don't think the aid climbing thing is such a big deal for three reasons.

cams in the size range of the dragons will mostly be used on continuous features such as pancake flake where extreme top stepping is hardly an absolute requirement.

when undertaking a section of harder aid 90% of people will have other gear on the rack (such as aliens) which are far better suited (for other reasons) in thin or scarred territory. they would carry dragon to bulk the rack out for the easier sections.

a significant number of routes were climbed before cams and fewer have gone up with the requirement of "thumb loops on cams".

I honestly don't think its a big deal for a UK based climber who wants to truck up the Nose or moonlight buttress which from DMM's point of view is the 95 th percentile of their purchases.
jkarran - on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to GrahamD:

Indeed.

Worrying about thumb loops for aiding when it's probably suncream, skincare and hydration that'll stop the average Brit team on their first wall just makes me smile.

jk
md@r on 03 Mar 2010 - proxy4.uws.ac.uk
It's just a cam working within its spec, but it's still amazing what a few ounces of dyneema, steel and aluminium will do.
Burns - on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to UKC Gear:

Are they any better than existing designs? What makes them more desirable to someone in the market for a new set of cams? Weight? Cost?
pauldr - on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to UKC Gear:

the big question how much of my hard earned cash is this going to cost ?
Bonkers Dog - on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to UKC Gear:

Any news when they'll be in the shops? And price?
gribble - on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to UKC Gear:

And do they come with their own 1.38 tonne boulder? I lost my last one.
Ghastly Rubberfeet on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to gribble:
> (In reply to UKC Gear)
>
> And do they come with their own 1.38 tonne boulder? I lost my last one.

Check into a posh hotel.

Your room key will probably be fastened to one!

JWB - on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to UKC Gear: It is a shame about the lack of a thumb loop. That was one of the main attractions of a Camalot.
Scarab - on 03 Mar 2010
Thumbloops is an important feature in cams, makes it much easier to place!

They are not going to be cheaper than camalots, only 3 gbp difference. Ill stick with the camalots for now, or even the tcus because of said reason.
willoates - on 03 Mar 2010
In reply to UKC Gear: Why are thumb loops better?

Thanks,

Will
wilkie14c - on 04 Mar 2010
In reply to willoates:
Dunno myself, makes little difference to me. I get the strong impression that DMM could have gotten around the problem by either fitting a wider nylon sling or foregoing the extendable sling for a section of doubled up sling that cuts out the breakages <A LA BD> They want the Dragon to be different to the BD rather than a clone and the extendable sling makes the dragon just that. The twin eyes/thumb loop is the only way to increase breaking loads as the sling 'impact' area is halved by being split over 2 points.
I have not seen a dragon in the flesh but gleen this info from the DMM site and previous UKC threads. I'm planning on a full set but am going to play with a couple of sizes to get the feel of them. I'm sure they'll be great.
GrahamD - on 04 Mar 2010
In reply to blanchie14c:

> I'm planning on a full set but am going to play with a couple of sizes to get the feel of them. I'm sure they'll be great.

A marketing man's dream !

mike kann - on 04 Mar 2010
In reply to blanchie14c: The doubled up sling has been patented and is what prevents the sling from cutting the wire - according to Simon Marsh unless I'm misremembering - hence the need for the eyes...
jkarran - on 04 Mar 2010
In reply to willoates:

> (In reply to UKC Gear) Why are thumb loops better?

It's a good question. Most of mine lack thumb loops (excepting Aliens and 3CU). Never dropped a cam in 10+ years. Never needed to clip in short (including aid).

jk
Mark Stevenson - on 04 Mar 2010
In reply to jkarran:
> Never needed to clip in short (including aid).

Having thought about it, I have occasionally but very rarely clipped in short to 4CUs. It has been pretty much just because I could rather than out of any desperate need.

It was never an issue with my previous generation Camelots so can't really see it causing DMM a vast loss of sales.

mike kann - on 04 Mar 2010
In reply to Mark Stevenson: IT'S NOT A DIRECT COPY OF A CAMALOT WHICH IS PERFECT, THEREFORE I'M NOT GOING TO EVER EVER BUY THEM. I will studiously ignore everything that they have gotten right and make spurious claims as to why the DRagons are rubbish and Camalots rock. Come on guy's it's UKC. Don't sit on the fence and start talking sense. This is neither the time nor the place - why would you base your opinion on fact when you could just make stuff up?
the cassin ridge - on 04 Mar 2010
I went climbing with a DMM rep the other day and used one the first Dragon Cams. It seemed very nice and seem to work very well. I won't be flogging my rack to buy a set, but I'd definatley give them serious consideration when I next need to buy a new cam.

The doubled up sling seemed to work very well and I didn't miss the thumb loop, buy saying that I don't miss it on Friends or second generation Camalots.

I'm sure they'll sell like hot cakes.
wilkie14c - on 04 Mar 2010
In reply to mike kann:
Agreed.
Twas a daft statement anyway, Camalots are not perfect. Nothing is ever perfect. If they were perfect, they not only would theyy be free but they'd have an extendable sling and made in the UK! Perfection is only in the eye of the beholder, what is perfect for me may well not be for another.
wilkie14c - on 04 Mar 2010
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to blanchie14c)
>
> [...]
>
> A marketing man's dream !

Hardly, I'm in the market for a full set as my Flexifits are ready for an upgrade. Upgrade is not connected to perfomance at all, they have been brilliant over the last 5 or 6 years, got me out of some tight spots, held my falls and the mech's have never failed. Only gripe is that they'd be better with an extendable sling but these were unheard of when I first got them so it is in fact an aftermarket wish. I was on the verge of buying a full set of tech friends then the dragon announcment happened last year and i decided to wait.
To me cams are the things that hang from my gear loops and once placed, forgotten about. I can make an informed choice and read reviews before buying. I know all about WC Friends and have done for years. I own a couple of Camalots and like them, I don't like twin stem cams and don't like 3CU's so it was pretty much WC or BD. Now DMM offer a serious competitor I can make more choices depending on my wants and needs, i'd be daft not too!
mike kann - on 04 Mar 2010
In reply to blanchie14c: Not aimed at you BTW - more the incessant ramblings of others making standard UKC user style statements that slate something before they've even held the stuff in their hand...
GrahamD - on 05 Mar 2010
In reply to mike kann:

Or, conversely, sing its praises to the rafters without actually having played with it. To my mind whether I buy Dragons or not will come down to how they actually feel relative to Camalots and Friends
mike kann - on 05 Mar 2010
In reply to GrahamD: Exactly - the proof will be in the pudding and it will not be very long until the pudding can be tasted by a wider audience... all I know is that this discussion has been done to death, with a lot of people making assertions either one way or the other which have very little to back them up. The only really relevant comments have been from the few who have held one and from Simon Marsh trying to put right some of the more spurious claims. I know from my own work that compromise is a massive part of what engineers do, and coming to some sort of conclusion about the features of a product will come down to the members of the company making decisions based on testing data, marketing considerations and manufacturing costs. Hopefully they get it right and the balance is perfect but that is a tall order!
IanC - on 05 Mar 2010
In reply to UKC Gear:
How many people would be even thinking let alone talking about the thumb loop if DMM had at first not released an image of a cam with one? I think this is a case of people expecting a product to be one thing and then complaining when the final design does not match the initial impression given.
Also if you really want to tie in short then Iím sure there are a multitude of work rounds.
jon on 05 Mar 2010
In reply to mike kann:

Just out of interest, I wonder what would happen if one of my old - more than 25 years - rigid stem friends, with original slings was used in that test. Would it break? What would break first? Any ideas?

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