In reply to Pete Graham:
> (In reply to Id love to climb.....) Are you suggesting that all mixed climbing on summer routes should be done without crampons? I don't know if you've ever tried to climb verglassed or hoared up rock in boot soles, but you generally have about as much friction as a wet fish on David Cameron's forehead.
>
I remember climbing a sustained VS on Pillar, about 20 years ago, at night with all the ledges totally banked out with well frozen neve and oodles of verglas...toping out at dawn...climbing a vertical wall of crystal clear organ pipe ice...an exceptionally rewarding and memorable experience....all this in a pair of Walsh's and bare hands....(ie; no axes or crampons).....it would of course have been immeasurably easier with tools and a pair of crampons.
> When considering whether the scratches are justified I think it's a balence of what both the winter and summer climbers get out of the routes. All in all, i don't think that a few scratches on a classic vs is going to detract that much from the summer experience and any slight loss in the aesthetics of the climb to the summer climber is easily outweighed by the pleasure that is had by the winter climber.
>
> p.s. if you want to make yourself really angry, go and do bowfell buttress.
I think that you have unwittingly answered this one yourself!
Again I remember soloing Bowfell buttress under heavy snow and ice (about 25 yrs ago) without crampons or axes....and seeing that there was negligible crampon wear on the climb....But now....A very different matter!!
Are you seriously telling me that you would be quite happy to see the likes of Gillercombe Buttress ending up in the same sorry state as Bowfell!!
As I see it there are 2 main causes of climbs rapidly deteriorating;
1. Poor footwork....good climbers climbing tricky routes generally leave negligible marks....poorer climbers end up pedalling quite a lot....
2. Ammont of traffic....1 team climb Gillercombe and leave the climb in a real mess....it takes no imagination at all to see what it will look like after just a very few ascents!!
If we talk about aesthetics....would you call the state Bowfell is now in, as a slight loss in aesthetics....when the enjoyment of a few winter climbers outweighs the enjoyment of litteraly thousands of rock climbers.