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David Lama - A scourge on local ethics!

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 PTatts 01 Jun 2010
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1181099/60-Bolts-drilled-on-Compres...

"The very route that Jim and Steve finished back in 79 just recently got a facelift, the bad kind. In spite of spending close to three months in Chalten, the much publicized free attempt on the Compressor route by David Lama had no positive results (two attempts to the bolt traverse). However it did have some negative results. Lama's film team fixed 700 meters of rope from the glacier to the bolt traverse. The ropes were left for months until three Argentine guides recovered them, although they had to abandon a haul bag full of them above the bergschrund. The worst of it all was that to place those 700 meters of rope the film team placed more than 60 bolts. This in an section of the climb where not even Maestri had placed a single bolt back in 71, and where natural protection abounds. Somehow the 450 bolts that are already on the route were not sufficient for Lama's film team crew."
 Bruce Hooker 01 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts:

"And it's coming to your local crag soon..." if some of the bolt maniacs could have their way. It already has in France!
 Morgan Woods 01 Jun 2010
In reply to Bruce Hooker: Hmmm Bruce. Didn't know you are anti bolts and also have a connection to France :p
 Jamie B 01 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts:

A free ascent of the Compressor Route would be a worthy prize (not sure how realistic though), but it does not justify this. Bend with the mountain, not against it.
 grubes 01 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts:
Wasn't David Lama also part of the team that painted the peak gritstone white with excessive chalk?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=404617
 George Ormerod 01 Jun 2010
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Is this an ironic bit of performance art: Attempt at a free-climb of a famous (bolted) aid route results in more bolts on the mountain!
climbright 01 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts: Sounds like a job for - Joseph Smith. Since the majority of Cerro Torre was free climbed in February, 2007, Joseph should not have too much trouble in freeing the remaining; last 400ft, chopping all of the bolts, including these recent additional bolts, on his way down.
OP PTatts 01 Jun 2010
In reply to grubes:
Indeed. Reports of 60 new bolts on Partian Shot are currently unconfirmed...
 steve456 01 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts: Place 60 bolts and 700m of static on one of the most iconic and controversial mountains on the planet, in an area renowned for fickle horrendous weather and then act surprised when you can't get them down before your flights leave?

Lama and team are either all complete idiots or they did it all despite knowing that the gear could easily have to be abandoned. I imagine he planned on bunging the locals a few quid to sort out their mess, just like last time (although an ab-rope and a toothbrush isn't quite in the same league).
 john arran 01 Jun 2010
In reply to steve456:

Using fixed ropes and contracting local guides to remove them (if that's what happened) isn't the real problem here. The real problem is drilling and fixing yet more gear on a route that's already widely regarded as being an embarrassment to the natural environment and local ethics.

What appears to have happened was that yet more gear was fixed to build a virtual road up the cliff to help shield themselves and their film crew from the realities of the mountain environment so they could more conveniently pursue their designer sport and capture it all in close-up for x-treme tv. At best it can be seen as insensitive cultural imperialism. At worst it's sheer bloody arrogance.

Sadly i didn't drink redbull before this so my boycott won't have any effect at all.
 steve456 01 Jun 2010
In reply to john arran: Yes I definitely understand, placing the bolts is completely and obviously inexcusable and I couldn't be bothered repeating the universal outrage. Fwiw, consider me outraged (my rant would have been less eloquent).

I feel that the team being prepared to leave the whole lot there and pretending otherwise is just as indicative of their massive arrogance and ignorance, but thankfully a lot less permanently damaging. There are however half a dozen exped barrels and an array of tin boxes and other kit sat at the bottom now and they'll presumably stay there till redbull come back and pick it up (and as DL said himself, there are no transport flights which will complicate things further).

From what I can gather the weather forecasts for the area are pretty good so the team must have made a concious decision to keep trying rather than even bother to strip the ropes when the weather came in. They're not 'just' a team bolters, they've done this with utterly no respect for anything or anyone.

I used to be red bull's biggest customer, now I'll never touch the stuff again.*

*This isn't true, it's both horrible and expensive.
 jwi 01 Jun 2010
In reply to john arran: This travesty seems like it is par for the course for climbers from the Alp-region. Robert Jasper did pretty much the same thing in Lofoten, putting up bolted belays for his film crew on the previously unmarred Great Pillar of Vagakallen.
 220bpm 01 Jun 2010
In reply to john arran:

Really well put, couldn't agree more.

The only RB I drink tends to be mixed with vodka, but even that will be off the menu now. I will also withdraw my support from their F1 team, which is a pity as I have admired and grown to love that team over the years.

And Lama *slap* should know better. Fantastically crap effort.
 Bill Davidson 01 Jun 2010
In reply to 220bpm:

Red Bull, Vodka & Tequila!!! Yeeeeeeeeeha
 sutty 01 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts:

Perhaps they should be refused permits to climb anywhere that needs them, and be fined if possible for excessive litter.

I am sure other teams could make sure that happened by cancelling any they paid a lot for to show the authorities they don't like what is happening.
Ackbar 01 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts:

What an idiot. How does he think that it is ok to place bolts and then remove them when you are finished!?!?!!!?! He brings shame on Austrian climbers.

From Redbull.com:

" The current status is that the project is on hold until next year. The entire shoulder and wall have been cleaned, except for bolts used for the production which will definitely be removed after next years attempt. Personally, I don’t believe that we did anything wrong. In fact it was us to remove loads of old, ruined ropes and slings from the mountain which were left behind by others…I know a lot has been discussed about my project and a lot of false information has been spread. Therefore I kindly ask you to judge my project at its end. I’m looking forward to returning next season, Patagonia has impressed me more than anything that I have seen before. Regards, David"

 antoniusblock 01 Jun 2010
In reply to Ackbar:

Mr Lama is also a Mammut sponsored climber. After this and the Peak District Chalk Scandal, anyone up for a Mammut boycot?
 Calum Nicoll 01 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts: How many ascents has cerre torre had that haven't used any pegs or bolts?
 Olli-C 01 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts: This is what he said in his interview with red bull before the climb "Cesare Maestri, who made the first ascent in 1970, left an entire highway of bolts and pitons in the mountain’s south-east face, which has nothing to do with today’s climbing ethics. Still, it’s improbable that more than a dozen climbers would have reached Cerro Torre’s peak if it wasn’t for that bolt-trail." There is more hypocrisy like this in the rest of the article http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/A-Snowballs-Chance-in-He...
In reply to PTatts: ...and international convention according to a post on that thread you posted.

"To add parabolts to an existing route not only is in opposition to one of the good well-known ethical norms not written of the mountain climbing and the scaling, but also on Best Practice in Mountain Sports is written in the famous Tyrol Declaration result of a meeting of mountain climbers, climbers, clubs and bunds in Innsbruck in 2002. In article 8, point 1, is read: "This means that the climbers would not have to increase the number of fixed insurances in a preexisting route";. This declaration recently has been updated with the denominated Declaration of Ethics in the Mountain that the Union the International of Associations of Alpinismo (UIAA) the past made 11 public of December on the occasion of the Day the International of the Mountain. In his article 1 (individual responsibility) one takes shelter: "… To place fixed anchorages in new or old routes cannot automatically be assumed like acceptable". In article 4 (in foreign countries): "… We must respect the ethics and local style of scaling and not drill nor place fixed anchorages in places where there is a traditional ethics in his against or where ” is not an established ethics. In article 8 (style): "… We always must deal with not leaving any sign in a wall and the mountain."
 steve456 01 Jun 2010
anyone going to own up to pasting my comments along with some other peoples in a big ukc rant remix on the red bull blog?
 EZ 02 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts:

Any which way one looks at it ... tw*ts!
 220bpm 02 Jun 2010
In reply to Bill Davidson:
> (In reply to 220bpm)
>
> Red Bull, Vodka & Tequila!!! Yeeeeeeeeeha

The R. Kelly of drinks.

I believe I can fly.....

 Chris F 02 Jun 2010
In reply to antoniusblock:
> Mr Lama is also a Mammut sponsored climber. After this and the Peak District Chalk Scandal, anyone up for a Mammut boycot?

I would go for that, if not for being in the same situation as John Arran about red bull.

 Solaris 02 Jun 2010
In reply to Calum Nicoll:

I don't know, but if you want some inspiration and some sense of what's possible in Patagonia, I suggest you read Simon Yates's "Against the Wall", Andy Cave's "Thin White Line". And if you want inspiration of what a clean ethic can achieve elsewhere, Mick Fowler's "On Thin Ice".
In reply to antoniusblock:
> (In reply to Ackbar)
>
> Mr Lama is also a Mammut sponsored climber. After this and the Peak District Chalk Scandal, anyone up for a Mammut boycot?

I would much rather see Mammut take the high ground and drop Lama
Removed User 02 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts:

I thought it might good to send the story on to the press so I've emailed a few links to Scotland on Sunday (the editor used to climb).

I guess some of the other Sundays might be interested in Red Bull's marketing phuq up.
 Steeve 02 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts:

why boycott? noone will notice.... I say we take a bucket of chalk and a drill to mammut or red bull headquarters and just go crazy.....
 SCC 02 Jun 2010
In reply to Steeve:

You're right - a few climbers boycott Mammut or Red Bull, like they're going to care?

Maybe if Climb, Climber (or even UKC?!) were to run a story on this, asking for Mammut to comment on his actions - then it would reach a wider audience and maybe Mammut would take note of that?

Si
 Bruce Hooker 02 Jun 2010
In reply to SCC:
> (In reply to Steeve)
>
> You're right - a few climbers boycott Mammut or Red Bull, like they're going to care?


As they are sponsoring this person in order to boost their sales they might just care a little bit... especially if those concerned informed them by an email or a letter what they were doing.
 pepperpot 02 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts:

Does anyone think there is any mileage in contacting Red Bull UK to find out anything more on their own stance on this?
 Michael Ryan 02 Jun 2010
In reply to pepperpot:

There has been almost global complaint and comment on this incident. I'm sure in a few weeks comment will be made from Red Bull such has the torrent of criticism been.

I'll do a bit of digging.

Meanwhile, I'm sure this has been linked to but Erik Lambert at Alpinist does provide an objective report:

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web10s/newswire-david-lama-compressor-bolts
 Solaris 02 Jun 2010
In reply to 220bpm:
> I will also withdraw my support from their F1 team, which is a pity as I have admired and grown to love that team over the years.

Well, given the F1 team's capacity for grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory this season, maybe they're aiming to be brand leaders in negative publicity.

And just to confirm that, didn't Adrian Newey understeer his boss's car into a tree whilst attempting a dramatic entry at a sponsor's villa last week?
petejh 02 Jun 2010
In reply to pepperpot:
Does anyone think there is any mileage in contacting Red Bull UK to find out anything more on their own stance on this?

It's worth telling red bull and mammut what YOUR stance is on this. Reputation matters a lot to companies like this, if enough of a minority complain then they'll take notice. I emailed red bull/mammut and david lama's 'promotor', stating something along the lines of how I now associate red bull/mammut with david lama's poor practice on Cerro Torre and so wouldn't be supporting either company with my custom unless they did something positive about the situation. I included part of John Arrans post in my email (with his permission) as I think his words sum up the situation quite concisely.

All for the sake of yet another wank, eye candy film ffs. What happened to good climbers just going climbing? For a great example of some inspiring film of a hard alpine rock ascent, without the commercial circus being involved, check out Favresse/Villaneuva/Hanssens/Vidal's homemade film from their new routes on Mt Asgard.
 Oceanic 02 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts:

Hmm, am I alone in finding this a bit ironic?

Does "outraged of Patagonia" propose the chopping of all of Maestri's bolts and the removal of his compressor? Or is it only the Red Bull bolts that are so offensive?

Shuffles off to write an article - "Murder of the Irrelevant"
 Blue Straggler 03 Jun 2010
In reply to Oceanic:

The Alpinist link that Mick Ryan provided, has a slew of comments. If you can filter out the "genius" shouts of "RED BULL-SHIT" and (clever!) "RED BOLT", someone lucid does suggest that Maestri's bolts be removed so that the "errors" of the past don't end up being used to sanction future debacles.

I think they should watch Scream of Stone (I don't think Werner Herzog needed to even touch the mountain, and he got some good footage!)
 Michael Ryan 03 Jun 2010
In reply to Blue Straggler:
> (In reply to Oceanic)
>
> someone lucid does suggest that Maestri's bolts be removed so that the "errors" of the past don't end up being used to sanction future debacles.

They quite nearly where

NEAR BOLTLESS ASCENT OF COMPRESSOR ROUTE

On February 18, Josh Wharton and Zack Smith made a near-boltless ascent of Cerro Torre's famed Compressor Route (VI 5.10 A2, 900m, Alimonti-Angeli- Baldessari-Claus-Maestri, 1970), Parque Nacional Los Glaciares, Patagonia, Argentina. Wharton and Smith worked out slight variations to the route with natural gear to get to the headwall without relying on bolts (aside from belays, which Wharton said would be "refixed anyway" if the bolts were chopped). Although they reached the top of the route, Wharton and Smith began clipping bolts in the final 400 feet (four pitches) due to weather complications.

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP18/newswire-cerro-torre-compressor-wharton-s...

 Michael Ryan 03 Jun 2010


"Wharton noted that the excessive bolting—there are about 450 bolts on Maestri's line—could, relatively safely, be reduced to fewer than twenty."
 Blue Straggler 03 Jun 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to Blue Straggler)
> [...]
>
> They quite nearly where
>

They quite nearly were what? Removed? Are you saying that Wharton and Smith had fully succeeded, they would then have removed all of Maestri's?
 Will1 03 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts: Not sure Red Bull is to blame here, they're a big company and they sponsor a lot of different sports. If one of their athletes presents them with a proposition to climb the biggest, hardest whatever, they might not scrutinise or understand the minutia. The responsibility for this rests firmly with the climbers and the production company who must surly also be climbers. You can imagine the folk at Red Bull trying to figure out what all the issues, 'So is that bad?'. Not sure if the same can be said for other companies involved.
I cannot understand how the climbers involved in this couldn't foresee the negative response to there actions.
 Bruce Hooker 03 Jun 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to pepperpot)
>
> Meanwhile, I'm sure this has been linked to but Erik Lambert at Alpinist does provide an objective report:
>
> http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web10s/newswire-david-lama-compressor-bolts

Thanks for the link, the comments after the article are worth reading... this one seems to go a way towards looking for one of the causes of today's problems - the desire many have to make their living from what should be just a hobby. It's a bit long but I couldn't see what to cut out.

"Schooner

I see this as a natural consequence of the mainstreaming of climbing and alpinism. So many of you, and don't deny it, are trying as hard as you can to avoid "work" and just be climbers full-time. Head cams, blogs, new GH-1's to film yo'self doing something rad that everybody needs to check-out...including those Mountain Dew sponsors and Nat Geo. Yeah, of course, screw Red Bullshit but also include Black Diamond, Patagonia,Inc., Mountain Hardwear and all those labels that so many like to fill themselves with...dreams of full-time sponsorship and FAME. Of course people will begin to do these stunts to get their name on the bill. Most of us support it and advocate it. Of course, many don't, but that minority is the "old schoolers" and the "old school converts". Remember that guy that used to say ,"Talk minus action equals zilch." (M.T.- used without permission). Well, those days are dead and gone nearly. Rescue helicopters on stand-by in the Himalaya? More and more new grant awards popping up every year, often on the tails of a very dramatic loss, just to get new hopeful sponsorees on the train. It is out-of-control. Where does it end? Well, I think it needs to end here and now with this totally dip-witted- wannabee-completely clueless stunt on one of the Holy Grails of the World. No disrespect to any who have commmented on this issue as I respect everyone who has chimed in on this and I respect most of the soulful and righteous brothers and sisters I have met on my world climbing travels into the hills. Really it just comes down to , " Have some soul." But those ethics are turned around and twisted by so many stickers, labels and false hopes of being a full-time dude. Hey, I got an idea...how about instead of blogging and spraying and bolting, write a book. Even if it is on the heels of failure. And as for this Austrian kid that bolted Cerro Torre.... I got a pretty good idea what would happen to him in the climbing world if he did that in Yosemite. I am not implying threats, I am implying legal action...the way these types of debacles are dealth with in the adult world. Red Bull has a lot of money...maybe Parque Los Glaciares could squeeze a dime from them. And, of course, there is the underworld, or sub-culture. They have their own ways of ostracizing and dealing. Maybe we just need to shut it down for a little. Just like the world fisheries need to be shut down for a little while. To heal, to recuperate, to reflect. Also, my last somewhat point, is that this is also another cry out to the climbing elders to mentor the youngsters. Lead by example. Lead with some soul. This is just downright absolutely shocking and something needs to change......


2010-06-01 23:32:08"


 George Ormerod 03 Jun 2010
In reply to Oceanic:
> (In reply to tatz45)
>
> Hmm, am I alone in finding this a bit ironic?
>
> Does "outraged of Patagonia" propose the chopping of all of Maestri's bolts and the removal of his compressor? Or is it only the Red Bull bolts that are so offensive?
>
> Shuffles off to write an article - "Murder of the Irrelevant"

I think you miss a key point; the bolts were placed to facilitate the filming of the free attempt, not in the climbing. Adding bolts to the route would have been controversial enough; but do you consider bolts, the sole purpose of which is to allow the production of some extreme sports wank-off film, to be acceptable?
 Blue Straggler 03 Jun 2010
In reply to George Ormerod:

George, with respect, I think Oceanic "gets" the point and perhaps you are missing the subtle irony that he refers to.
Maestri's bolts, whilst not placed to allow, in your words, "the production of some extreme sports wank-off film", were inteded to serve an at-the-time similar function - that of elevating (no pun intended) Maestri's status by absolutely ensuring an outcome (summitting CT)

Sorry if I'm not making much sense - not enough coffee yet!
 thommi 03 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts: "Still, it’s improbable that more than a dozen climbers would have reached Cerro Torre’s peak if it wasn’t for that bolt-trail."..... surely thats the point? did lama not consider himself within that dozen? a dozen is still (relatively) alot of super elite climbers! poor show everybody involved.
 Blue Straggler 03 Jun 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Mick - thanks for the other links, and for the sentiment behind providing this latest one, but (just skim reading it) it looks like a lot of quasi-troll gossip. Is there a "key" post from someone lucid and convincing in there? I'm afraid I don't have the heart to read every word in a massive thread peppered with incoherent ranting profanity.

Thanks
 George Ormerod 03 Jun 2010
In reply to Blue Straggler:
> (In reply to George Ormerod)
>
> George, with respect, I think Oceanic "gets" the point and perhaps you are missing the subtle irony that he refers to.

I took his irony to be the complaining about additional bolts on on an already over-bolted route.

Anyway, taking Cesare Maestri claims on face value, the first ascent was done without bolts!
 antoniusblock 03 Jun 2010
In reply to George Ormerod:
> (In reply to Blue Straggler)
> [...]

> Anyway, taking Cesare Maestri claims on face value, the first ascent was done without bolts!

If you do that, then it was Ferrari (?) and his team who did the first ascent. Maestri didn't climb the summit mushroom!

 Michael Ryan 03 Jun 2010
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Skipping Clips on Cerro Torre (2007)
By Dougald MacDonald


Americans Zack Smith and Josh Wharton made a bold attempt to climb the Southeast Ridge of Cerro Torre in Patagonia without using the protection bolts that were power-drilled by Cesare Maestri during his 1970 attempt on the granite needle. Maestri’s “Compressor Route” has become the standard route on the mountain, but it relies on hundreds of feet of artificial bolt ladders.

On February 18, Smith and Wharton climbed the ridge without clipping any protection bolts until the route’s 400-foot final headwall. They avoided Maestri’s 300-foot bolt traverse with a pitch of A2 and two pitches of 5.10+ R face climbing, a variation pioneered earlier by Ermanno Salvaterra. They also bypassed the 230-foot bolt ladder that gains the headwall via an ice chimney, likely a previously unclimbed line. Other bolts were skipped via minor variations or by using removable gear instead of bolts.

At the headwall, however, the weather deteriorated severely. Smith managed to lead the first pitch of the headwall without bolts, but as the wind blew the climbers’ ropes and aiders straight up into the air the two opted to move onto the bolt ladder to finish climbing the spire.

Wharton said in emails that he believes all but the last 100 feet of the headwall on Cerro Torre’s Southeast Ridge could be climbed without bolts quite reasonably in better weather, through a combination of aid and free climbing in corners and flakes on either side of the bolt ladders. However, the final 100 feet below the rime-ice mushroom on the summit is comprised of two sections of very blank rock. Above the gas-powered compressor that Maestri left on the wall, he bolted 70 feet of rock, then smashed his bolts during his descent; in 1978, Jim Bridwell established an A3 variation to the ruined bolts, using copperheads, rivets, and hooking, and this is the line taken by all climbers today. Below the compressor, there is about 30 feet of nearly blank rock that would require runout hooking or very hard and runout free climbing to avoid using bolts.

Still, Wharton wrote, “All told, a route with over 400 holes could be brought down to less then 20 very reasonably, and it would without doubt change the nature of the peak and its difficulty considerably.”

Wharton said he had mixed feelings about their climb. “I’m glad we climbed so much of the route without bolts. I’m also excited to see that the 120-meter headwall (in better conditions) will go with perhaps only 30 meters of aid—20 of which are the legitimate aid climbing of the Bridwell pitch. And I thought we did a great job struggling onto the top in horrendous weather. I’m disappointed, however, that in the end we took the easy way out, using the bolts to gain the top in what would otherwise have been unclimbable conditions. Human laziness and coveting the easy way to the top is a sad piece of the Compressor Route story, and although Zack and I nearly avoided this path, in the end we fell just short.”

http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/boltlesscompressor/
 jwi 03 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts: Will Gadd, who is also sponsored by Red Bull, have a written a bit about the Red Bolt debacle on his blog: http://gravsports.blogspot.com/2010/06/david-lama-red-bull-patagonia.html
 Oceanic 03 Jun 2010
In reply to George Ormerod:
> (In reply to Oceanic)
> [...]
>
> I think you miss a key point; the bolts were placed to facilitate the filming of the free attempt, not in the climbing. Adding bolts to the route would have been controversial enough; but do you consider bolts, the sole purpose of which is to allow the production of some extreme sports wank-off film, to be acceptable?


Yes, you summised rightly that my point is that the Compressor Route is already a bolt ladder, so I'm less concerned about extra bolts on that route than I am by the idea of a first ascencionist adding a single bolt to a new mountain route.

As for filming bolts v. climbing bolts, I guess the bad thing about a filming bolt is that it has a small environmental impact (the same as a piton) where as a climbing bolt has the environmental impact, and drags the route down to the climbing ability level of the person who placed it. I suppose some of the filming bolts may be useful for descent in a storm, so in a way they also reduce the level of adventure of the climb.

My main point was that people are jumping on some big anti multinational company bandwagon with all this "Boycot Redbull" thing, when I think Redbull does a lot to help fund minority adventure sports, and I personally don't think adding 90 bolts to a route that is already a bolt ladder is the end of the world.
 Pino 03 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts: another case of business über alles; sad.
 Jamie B 03 Jun 2010
In reply to Pino: I dont understand why so much of the justified indignation is being aimed at Red Bull. Do we honestly think that anybody in their hierachy made a decision on fixed gear? Or would even have understood the argument? My guess is that somebody sold them on underwriting a climbing and media spectacular and they wrote a cheque. The decisions on use of fixed gear were in all probability made in the field, by mountaineering professionals who should have known better.

Would David Lama have been involved in the decision-making? Not sure; ultimately he is the "talent" not the director. His role was presumably to crank moves up the headwall with the camera running; getting him plus the camera crew into position for this would be a job for far more experienced mountaineers.
 antoniusblock 05 Jun 2010
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

The whole point is that because of the way that Lama has acted, he has destroyed it for the rest of us. He must have suggested to do this, and had a moral obligation as a climber to say to Red Bull, "guys, we shouldnt do this because this, this and this". He should know better. And he should admit that he messed things up! To be honest, they guy has no clue for local ethics (he has been implicated in the Mammut Peak District chalk thing, and some retro bolting in El Chalten. Oh, and have heard stories of him trying to buy a peg for Gaia (!)). As a climber it is his responsibility to learn these things!
sam86 07 Jun 2010
Lama is not a mountaineer, he is a sport climber. He is also from a region where bolting is not up to discussion, at least not the way the rest of the world discuss it. So how do you expect Lama to know anything about mountains and alpinism?

I live in that region and if I talk to climbers about bolts they look like question marks. Many climbers thinks a bolted route is better than if it was not bolted. They can bring less gear, less to learn, move faster and don't risk sleeping outside in the mountains (which they don't like, anything that help you prevent sleeping in a tent is a good thing). No one will react here if you bolt a route with a perfect crack for protection, in fact it's a good think because it makes the route accessible to more people.

Good to get out some frustration about the happy-bolters.

It's obvious that respect for nature and the mountains are less important for Lama than his career. If he cared he would not say putting up bolts was okey because they had permission. Good think they did not get permission to do more damage.

Ethics should be something good, not something that you feel restricts you.
 Jonny2vests 07 Jun 2010
In reply to sam86:

Its not easy to say which side of the fence you sit.

> Ethics should be something good, not something that you feel restricts you.

On the contrary, ethics are often necessarily restrictive.
sam86 07 Jun 2010
In reply to jonny2vests: What I was trying to say was that I hope climbers use good ethics out of own will and with nature in mind, not just to avoid trubble from the climbing community. In other words, your ethics are true and you follow them everywhere. E.g. you don't leave your trash in the mountains just because it's allowed in the country you're visiting. This only works with good ethics, not bad ones.

That's the problem here in Austria, if the bring theire ethics to e.g. UK, they would put up 2000 bolts on Nevis.

More clear?
 uncontrollable 07 Jun 2010
In reply to PTatts:

I find it hard to believe that someone would be stupid enough to place bolts to facilitate the filming of an free climbing ascent, especially on route known to be controversial for it's bolts.
I guess the fault is with Lama and the European Guides, who should have known better, rather than with the sponsors who probably didn't make the decision in the first place but only can clear up the aftermmatch.
But what a stupid deed, just to get it on film.


 uncontrollable 07 Jun 2010
In reply to uncontrollable:

but hey I found David Lama's guest book:
http://www.david-lama.com/en/servicenavigation/gaestebuch.html
 Jonny2vests 07 Jun 2010
In reply to sam86:
> More clear?

Yes Sam, I see where you're coming from now.


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