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if staying with them meant dying yourself?
It's probably a question none of us can answer truthfully unless we've been in such a situation, but I'd like to believe I wouldn't abandon someone to die even if it put my own life at risk. Historically the whole ethos of mountaineering is that you are in it together as a team and you don't abandon people. I don't think I could live with the guilt of leaving someone, but I've never been faced with such a decision, and it's easy to moralise from the comfort of an armchair rather than the harsh reality at high altitude.
How do you think you would react faced with such an agonising decision?
It's probably a question none of us can answer truthfully unless we've been in such a situation, but I'd like to believe I wouldn't abandon someone to die even if it put my own life at risk. Historically the whole ethos of mountaineering is that you are in it together as a team and you don't abandon people. I don't think I could live with the guilt of leaving someone, but I've never been faced with such a decision, and it's easy to moralise from the comfort of an armchair rather than the harsh reality at high altitude.
How do you think you would react faced with such an agonising decision?
In reply to Trangia:
I don't think that is true, as romantic as it sounds. Historically, I think the ethos has been to take calculated (and sometimes truly heroic) risks to rescue team members, but if your best efforts aren't enough, to make them as safe and comfortable as possible, and go and try and get help.
Mind you, I have gained this impression from reading (auto)biographies, so perhaps it's somewhat skewed...
> if staying with them meant dying yourself?
>
> Historically the whole ethos of mountaineering is that you are in it together as a team and you don't abandon people.
>
> Historically the whole ethos of mountaineering is that you are in it together as a team and you don't abandon people.
I don't think that is true, as romantic as it sounds. Historically, I think the ethos has been to take calculated (and sometimes truly heroic) risks to rescue team members, but if your best efforts aren't enough, to make them as safe and comfortable as possible, and go and try and get help.
Mind you, I have gained this impression from reading (auto)biographies, so perhaps it's somewhat skewed...
In reply to Trangia:
I've been in that situation when caving with one other person. They were unconscious and hypothermic, and I suspected that they might die without me there trying to warm them up. I started to wonder what I would do if I started to get really cold, I decided that I would stay, even though I knew that would put my own life at risk. But then again the person was my girlfriend at the time, so that altered the situation.
Fortunately I managed to warm her up.
> if staying with them meant dying yourself?
> unless we've been in such a situation,
> unless we've been in such a situation,
I've been in that situation when caving with one other person. They were unconscious and hypothermic, and I suspected that they might die without me there trying to warm them up. I started to wonder what I would do if I started to get really cold, I decided that I would stay, even though I knew that would put my own life at risk. But then again the person was my girlfriend at the time, so that altered the situation.
Fortunately I managed to warm her up.
In reply to Oceanic:
Bad, bad, man!
;oP
> (In reply to Trangia)
> [...]
>
> the person was my girlfriend ... Fortunately I managed to warm them up.
> [...]
>
> the person was my girlfriend ... Fortunately I managed to warm them up.
Bad, bad, man!
;oP
In reply to Profanisaurus Rex: I like to think of us all sat down there getting cold sitting one out. be liek a scene from Romans in Britain
In reply to Fawksey:
or the last scene of Stalingrad.
Bluestraggler will be along with a critique ......
or the last scene of Stalingrad.
Bluestraggler will be along with a critique ......
In reply to Trangia:
I have dependants and i cant choose to die
may sound trite and convienient but id only be inflicting pain on them
despite the excuse , still wouldn't feel good about it though id imagine
> if staying with them meant dying yourself?
>
>
ultimately the time would come for me to leave them and escape the situation>
>
I have dependants and i cant choose to die
may sound trite and convienient but id only be inflicting pain on them
despite the excuse , still wouldn't feel good about it though id imagine
In reply to Trangia: Tough call but i have to confess that i'd be well away if i actually got to a point where i thought my staying would result in my death!
In reply to Trangia: If it got to the point where staying with them would result in my own death, and I was in a fit enough state to get off the hill, then I think I would try to get help, try to leave them as comfortable as possible. Then attempt to get help, Its the right thing to do in my opinion.
Consider the "Touching the Void" situation, could you cut the rope?
Conversely, if I was climbing a route as a team, and one team member came down with altude sickness, I would definitely not leave them to descend alone, in that situation even if the climber is adamant on going alone I would still go down with them.
Consider the "Touching the Void" situation, could you cut the rope?
Conversely, if I was climbing a route as a team, and one team member came down with altude sickness, I would definitely not leave them to descend alone, in that situation even if the climber is adamant on going alone I would still go down with them.
In reply to Petarghh: agreed, a greater sense of pride and satisfaction in ensuring someone returned to their loved ones than claiming any route or peak on ones personal tick list.
In reply to Petarghh:
Absolutely - that's a no-brainer.
> (In reply to Trangia)
> Conversely, if I was climbing a route as a team, and one team member came down with altude sickness, I would definitely not leave them to descend alone, in that situation even if the climber is adamant on going alone I would still go down with them.
> Conversely, if I was climbing a route as a team, and one team member came down with altude sickness, I would definitely not leave them to descend alone, in that situation even if the climber is adamant on going alone I would still go down with them.
Absolutely - that's a no-brainer.
In reply to Trangia:
Those two scenario's are different. The first you talk about dying yourself (ie this is just a form of suicide if you know you're going to die) the other is a matter of risk assessment and very hard to know without a particular scenario and being there in the middle of it.
> if staying with them meant dying yourself?
>
> It's probably a question none of us can answer truthfully unless we've been in such a situation, but I'd like to believe I wouldn't abandon someone to die even if it put my own life at risk.
>
> It's probably a question none of us can answer truthfully unless we've been in such a situation, but I'd like to believe I wouldn't abandon someone to die even if it put my own life at risk.
Those two scenario's are different. The first you talk about dying yourself (ie this is just a form of suicide if you know you're going to die) the other is a matter of risk assessment and very hard to know without a particular scenario and being there in the middle of it.
In reply to Trangia:
would you as a dying climber wish for another to die with you?
from a 3rd person perspective i think id rather loose one comrade than two.
as the second climber id maybe consider my commitment to others as well to stay alive. to my family, the dead climbers family, the rescue team etc.
as the ailing climber im pretty sure i wouldnt want to die alone.
would you as a dying climber wish for another to die with you?
from a 3rd person perspective i think id rather loose one comrade than two.
as the second climber id maybe consider my commitment to others as well to stay alive. to my family, the dead climbers family, the rescue team etc.
as the ailing climber im pretty sure i wouldnt want to die alone.
In reply to Trangia:
If you ever really find yourself in the situation you'll know the answer right enough... reality has a way of cutting through the bullshit, forums have a way of amplifying it
If you ever really find yourself in the situation you'll know the answer right enough... reality has a way of cutting through the bullshit, forums have a way of amplifying it
In reply to kamon:
Ugh?
> (In reply to Sam-I-am)
>
> I could not, would not, in a house.
>
> I would not, could not, with a mouse.
>>
> I could not, would not, in a house.
>
> I would not, could not, with a mouse.
Ugh?
Completely true. Saved my sister in the past and had absolutely no idea how I would react until it happened. Same experience came when faced by a few hundred rioters in Northern Ireland and there was only 8 of us.
This is not such an interesting (or answerable) question.
What seems more relevant is those climbers that walk past dying climbers without making any effort to stop and check someone's situation due t personal summit fever. Is is right to ignore someone, since they decided to make the climb and knew the risks anyway.....?
This is not such an interesting (or answerable) question.
What seems more relevant is those climbers that walk past dying climbers without making any effort to stop and check someone's situation due t personal summit fever. Is is right to ignore someone, since they decided to make the climb and knew the risks anyway.....?
In reply to Trangia:
I've not been an obvious life or death situation, but have helped others in dangerous situations. I tend to jump in and try and help, often before thinking of personal danger. If it was a climbing partner (so assuming friend) that instinct would be stronger.
BUT if it was more a wait it out and die slowly with them rather than save myself the other influence would be knowing that my girlfriend is the most important person in the world for me and I'd be hurting her in exchange for helping someone else. BUT would I want to go back to her as the type of person who'd walk away from someone in trouble.
Very complicated situation but I'm inclined to go with what someone said above - it's not one to be answered unless you've been there and because of that isn't really that intersting a question.
I've not been an obvious life or death situation, but have helped others in dangerous situations. I tend to jump in and try and help, often before thinking of personal danger. If it was a climbing partner (so assuming friend) that instinct would be stronger.
BUT if it was more a wait it out and die slowly with them rather than save myself the other influence would be knowing that my girlfriend is the most important person in the world for me and I'd be hurting her in exchange for helping someone else. BUT would I want to go back to her as the type of person who'd walk away from someone in trouble.
Very complicated situation but I'm inclined to go with what someone said above - it's not one to be answered unless you've been there and because of that isn't really that intersting a question.
In reply to Trangia:
If you've not read it, get a copy of Dark Shadows Falling by Joe Simpson.
If you've not read it, get a copy of Dark Shadows Falling by Joe Simpson.
In reply to Trangia: If i was the ailing climber, i knew i was going to die, and my stubborn climbing partner refused to leave me to the point where he/she risked dying if they stayed. I'd chuck myself off the mountain/headbutt my ice axe! (If i was capable.)
I'd expect anyone in that situation to leave me and save themselves. (Or go get help man!)
I'd expect anyone in that situation to leave me and save themselves. (Or go get help man!)
In reply to Trangia: to put it another way if you are climbing above 8000m (guided or not) would you ever expect to be rescued?
In reply to Trangia: self preservation is paramount although this shouldn't preclude you from trying to help your partner if it is safe to do so. if it is too dangerous for you to stay with them then I would say that its ethical to leave.
BTW, i'm planning a trip.... :p
BTW, i'm planning a trip.... :p
In reply to Trangia:
Aleister Crowley had a particularly logical answer to your question, but was much criticized when he applied it! I think it was on K2 or somewhere similar... he refused to take part in a rescue attempt saying that going up in the conditions at the time was suicidal so would be no help to anyone. I can't remember the details, only that when I read it I thought he was only being lucid.
Aleister Crowley had a particularly logical answer to your question, but was much criticized when he applied it! I think it was on K2 or somewhere similar... he refused to take part in a rescue attempt saying that going up in the conditions at the time was suicidal so would be no help to anyone. I can't remember the details, only that when I read it I thought he was only being lucid.
In reply to Trangia:
Moving on a bit. If say they did die and you didn't but the only way for you to survive was to eat them who would turn cannibal?
Moving on a bit. If say they did die and you didn't but the only way for you to survive was to eat them who would turn cannibal?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
totally agree with his sentiments. just because there is a very slim hope you may be able to help, where the chances of death outweigh you jus wouldn't risk it.
You could also use the example of Joe simpson and Simon 'slasher' yates (as AKP called him) on sula grande. they both would have died if he hadn't cut the rope! yates thought simpson was dead so made for the base camp!
totally agree with his sentiments. just because there is a very slim hope you may be able to help, where the chances of death outweigh you jus wouldn't risk it.
You could also use the example of Joe simpson and Simon 'slasher' yates (as AKP called him) on sula grande. they both would have died if he hadn't cut the rope! yates thought simpson was dead so made for the base camp!
In reply to Trangia: i would leave them. Only difficulty might be if it was my child.
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
yes id eat them, or part of them, spag bol style if possible, fair dues, they would have eaten part of me too im sure if it were other way arround, hopefully they'd roast me, dont hink id liek to be made into a curry
yes id eat them, or part of them, spag bol style if possible, fair dues, they would have eaten part of me too im sure if it were other way arround, hopefully they'd roast me, dont hink id liek to be made into a curry
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
and I imagine that courtrooms are no clearer.
This has happened several times before. (Not to me!)
It happened to some friends of mine in Scotland, not particularly high up but far enough away from civilisation as to make no odds. Their friend died of a heart attack. Nasty!
> (In reply to Trangia)
>
> If you ever really find yourself in the situation you'll know the answer right enough... reality has a way of cutting through the bullshit, forums have a way of amplifying it
>
> If you ever really find yourself in the situation you'll know the answer right enough... reality has a way of cutting through the bullshit, forums have a way of amplifying it
and I imagine that courtrooms are no clearer.
This has happened several times before. (Not to me!)
It happened to some friends of mine in Scotland, not particularly high up but far enough away from civilisation as to make no odds. Their friend died of a heart attack. Nasty!
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
It was Kangchenjunga 1905 expedition. Whilst 3 climbers and 3 porters were traversing a snow slope at 20,343 ft in the middle of the day two of the porters slipped dragging the others off. This started an avalanche. Two of the climbers survived. The other 4 were buried and perished.
Crowley was in the camp above with a Mr M Reymond. They clearly heard the cries for help. Reymond immediately set off to help, descended the slope without difficulty and rescued the two survivors. Crowley refused to help and stayed at the camp. Later he wrote that he had warned them the slope was too dangerous to descend in the heat of the day, he therefore had "no sympathy" with them, and "anyway it would have taken him ten minutes to dress", so he had refused to go to their aid.
Crowley was a thoroughly obnoxious character from Hastings, the town where I live, who besides being a mountaineer was a self proclaimed warlock who dabbled in Black Magic.
Bearing in mind that Reymond suceeded in rescuing two of the climbers, I see nothing logical about Crowley's lack of action. Crowley left the expedition and returned to the UK immediately after the accident (which he claimed was not an "accident")
> (In reply to Trangia)
>
> Aleister Crowley had a particularly logical answer to your question, but was much criticized when he applied it! I think it was on K2 or somewhere similar...
>
>
> Aleister Crowley had a particularly logical answer to your question, but was much criticized when he applied it! I think it was on K2 or somewhere similar...
>
It was Kangchenjunga 1905 expedition. Whilst 3 climbers and 3 porters were traversing a snow slope at 20,343 ft in the middle of the day two of the porters slipped dragging the others off. This started an avalanche. Two of the climbers survived. The other 4 were buried and perished.
Crowley was in the camp above with a Mr M Reymond. They clearly heard the cries for help. Reymond immediately set off to help, descended the slope without difficulty and rescued the two survivors. Crowley refused to help and stayed at the camp. Later he wrote that he had warned them the slope was too dangerous to descend in the heat of the day, he therefore had "no sympathy" with them, and "anyway it would have taken him ten minutes to dress", so he had refused to go to their aid.
Crowley was a thoroughly obnoxious character from Hastings, the town where I live, who besides being a mountaineer was a self proclaimed warlock who dabbled in Black Magic.
Bearing in mind that Reymond suceeded in rescuing two of the climbers, I see nothing logical about Crowley's lack of action. Crowley left the expedition and returned to the UK immediately after the accident (which he claimed was not an "accident")
In reply to Trangia: An ambulance driver ran a "first aid in the hills" course for us once. First aid for when you are too far away from help.
"People do die." was his answer as people presented him with more and more ridiculous scenarios.
It seemed to have the desired effect of stopping people from asking impossible to answer hypothetical questions.
"People do die." was his answer as people presented him with more and more ridiculous scenarios.
It seemed to have the desired effect of stopping people from asking impossible to answer hypothetical questions.
In reply to Trangia:
it's one of the main reasons i dont ever want to go up a really high mountain
i'd rather not ever have to make that choice or feel comfortable asking a friend to make that decision about me
it's one of the main reasons i dont ever want to go up a really high mountain
i'd rather not ever have to make that choice or feel comfortable asking a friend to make that decision about me
In reply to EasyAndy:
You could just as easily be faced with such a decision on a low mountain... depending on the wrong circumstances
You could just as easily be faced with such a decision on a low mountain... depending on the wrong circumstances
I was sitting in the front row in a presentation Simon Yates was doing, where he was advertising guided trips up Pik Lenin. At the end when he asked people if they had any questions I had to fight really hard not to stand up and ask him whether we had to rope up to him during the climb and why I wouldn't want him as a ropemate!!!
In answer to the OP, if someone was in trouble and I felt strong and the conditions didn't mean certain death, I would definitely do my best to help them. But I wouldn't help a stranger knowing that I'd die for certain, because I don't want to put my loved through the turmoil (plus I've plenty to live for , but if there was more than one person in danger I could see myself considering it...
In answer to the OP, if someone was in trouble and I felt strong and the conditions didn't mean certain death, I would definitely do my best to help them. But I wouldn't help a stranger knowing that I'd die for certain, because I don't want to put my loved through the turmoil (plus I've plenty to live for , but if there was more than one person in danger I could see myself considering it...
In reply to alpinist:
I'm sure you wouldnt be the first to ask him and i'm sure you wouldn't be the last. I saw him talk about his full lifetime of climbing experiences and from what i could tell hi view of the whole incident is that it was a very small part of his vast years of climbing and he has no regrets about any decisions that he made. Just my opinion of what I heard.
> I was sitting in the front row in a presentation Simon Yates was doing, where he was advertising guided trips up Pik Lenin. At the end when he asked people if they had any questions I had to fight really hard not to stand up and ask him whether we had to rope up to him during the climb and why I wouldn't want him as a ropemate!!!
>
>
I'm sure you wouldnt be the first to ask him and i'm sure you wouldn't be the last. I saw him talk about his full lifetime of climbing experiences and from what i could tell hi view of the whole incident is that it was a very small part of his vast years of climbing and he has no regrets about any decisions that he made. Just my opinion of what I heard.
In reply to Trangia:
>
> Crowley was a thoroughly obnoxious character from Hastings, the town where I live, who besides being a mountaineer was a self proclaimed warlock who dabbled in Black Magic.
>
Yeh but he did inspire one of rocks best ever tunes , so he's alright in my book > Crowley was a thoroughly obnoxious character from Hastings, the town where I live, who besides being a mountaineer was a self proclaimed warlock who dabbled in Black Magic.
>
In reply to Trangia:
ah ha, crowley!
the k2 incident bruce refers too is even more sinister apparetly.
story is he was accused of canniblising a porter when stormbound in a high camp.
after which his name was forever struck for the records of the RGS.
could just be a story - he seemed to make a philosophical point of never denying anything.
yes, he seems to have been an extraordinarily obnoxious, pompous and just plain silly individual - but fascinating all the same. the occultism is all quite boring pointless exoticism, but his career as an adventurer, climber and agitator is interesting.
moral: beware of climbing with members of secret societies.
ah ha, crowley!
the k2 incident bruce refers too is even more sinister apparetly.
story is he was accused of canniblising a porter when stormbound in a high camp.
after which his name was forever struck for the records of the RGS.
could just be a story - he seemed to make a philosophical point of never denying anything.
yes, he seems to have been an extraordinarily obnoxious, pompous and just plain silly individual - but fascinating all the same. the occultism is all quite boring pointless exoticism, but his career as an adventurer, climber and agitator is interesting.
moral: beware of climbing with members of secret societies.
In reply to Trangia:
you bet ... in fact I have twice.
you bet ... in fact I have twice.
In reply to The third:
...twice what???
stuck it out with dying comrades, eaten porters, attempted k2, identified a british alpine route or climbed with the golden dawn?
not all of the above surely...
...twice what???
stuck it out with dying comrades, eaten porters, attempted k2, identified a british alpine route or climbed with the golden dawn?
not all of the above surely...
In reply to Tom G:
true, but high mountain stuff does seem to claim an awful lot of lives. it's an experience i'd love to have but not sure i'd be willing to go to the lengths required. suddenly going blind then keeling over has never been much of a fear in the type of climbing i really enjoy
true, but high mountain stuff does seem to claim an awful lot of lives. it's an experience i'd love to have but not sure i'd be willing to go to the lengths required. suddenly going blind then keeling over has never been much of a fear in the type of climbing i really enjoy
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
I wouldn't eat anybody, eating people's not nice.
You've got to draw the line somewhere.
> (In reply to Trangia)
> Moving on a bit. If say they did die and you didn't but the only way for you to survive was to eat them who would turn cannibal?
> Moving on a bit. If say they did die and you didn't but the only way for you to survive was to eat them who would turn cannibal?
I wouldn't eat anybody, eating people's not nice.
You've got to draw the line somewhere.
In reply to Trangia:
Presented like that it doesn't seem so nice, maybe I read his version of the incident... wasn't there a revolver involved? I think the book I read was called "The Great Beast 666". He was clearly a rather controversial character, and a charlatan quite likely, but the way he stuck two fingers up at the society he lived in is not without a certain charm. I don't think he would have been a particularly pleasant climbing partner though
Presented like that it doesn't seem so nice, maybe I read his version of the incident... wasn't there a revolver involved? I think the book I read was called "The Great Beast 666". He was clearly a rather controversial character, and a charlatan quite likely, but the way he stuck two fingers up at the society he lived in is not without a certain charm. I don't think he would have been a particularly pleasant climbing partner though
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
He had a verocious sexual appetite spending much of his time as an undergraduate using prostitutes and picking up girls in bars. He also experimented with men generally as the passive partner in acts of buggery, and much of his "magic" involved exotic sexual acts. He was a Freemason, belonged to a number of secret occult societies and became addicted to hard drugs. Inspite of his lifestyle he lived into the 1940s and it is alleged that when he was dying his doctor refused to go on prescribing morphine, so Crowley put a curse on him. The doctor died unexpectedly the day after Crowley's death.
One of his most noteable climbs was Beachy Head, an incredible achievement for the day, and still an incredibly necky climb even with modern ice tools. The actual route he climbed was lost a few years ago when thousands of tons of chalk here fell into the sea.
As you say an interesting character, but definitely not my idea of a climbing partner!
> (In reply to Trangia)
>
> , but the way he stuck two fingers up at the society he lived in is not without a certain charm. I don't think he would have been a particularly pleasant climbing partner though
>>
> , but the way he stuck two fingers up at the society he lived in is not without a certain charm. I don't think he would have been a particularly pleasant climbing partner though
He had a verocious sexual appetite spending much of his time as an undergraduate using prostitutes and picking up girls in bars. He also experimented with men generally as the passive partner in acts of buggery, and much of his "magic" involved exotic sexual acts. He was a Freemason, belonged to a number of secret occult societies and became addicted to hard drugs. Inspite of his lifestyle he lived into the 1940s and it is alleged that when he was dying his doctor refused to go on prescribing morphine, so Crowley put a curse on him. The doctor died unexpectedly the day after Crowley's death.
One of his most noteable climbs was Beachy Head, an incredible achievement for the day, and still an incredibly necky climb even with modern ice tools. The actual route he climbed was lost a few years ago when thousands of tons of chalk here fell into the sea.
As you say an interesting character, but definitely not my idea of a climbing partner!
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Are you really smiling smugly at your own "clever" retort?
> (In reply to Trangia)
>
> If you ever really find yourself in the situation you'll know the answer right enough... reality has a way of cutting through the bullshit, forums have a way of amplifying it
>
> If you ever really find yourself in the situation you'll know the answer right enough... reality has a way of cutting through the bullshit, forums have a way of amplifying it
Are you really smiling smugly at your own "clever" retort?
In reply to Trangia:
Perhaps if you think a little you will see the reason.
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
> [...]
>
> It was Kangchenjunga 1905 expedition. Whilst 3 climbers and 3 porters were traversing a snow slope at 20,343 ft in the middle of the day two of the porters slipped dragging the others off. This started an avalanche. Two of the climbers survived. The other 4 were buried and perished.
>
> Crowley was in the camp above with a Mr M Reymond. They clearly heard the cries for help. Reymond immediately set off to help, descended the slope without difficulty and rescued the two survivors. Crowley refused to help and stayed at the camp. Later he wrote that he had warned them the slope was too dangerous to descend in the heat of the day, he therefore had "no sympathy" with them, and "anyway it would have taken him ten minutes to dress", so he had refused to go to their aid.
>
> Crowley was a thoroughly obnoxious character from Hastings, the town where I live, who besides being a mountaineer was a self proclaimed warlock who dabbled in Black Magic.
>
> Bearing in mind that Reymond suceeded in rescuing two of the climbers, I see nothing logical about Crowley's lack of action.
> [...]
>
> It was Kangchenjunga 1905 expedition. Whilst 3 climbers and 3 porters were traversing a snow slope at 20,343 ft in the middle of the day two of the porters slipped dragging the others off. This started an avalanche. Two of the climbers survived. The other 4 were buried and perished.
>
> Crowley was in the camp above with a Mr M Reymond. They clearly heard the cries for help. Reymond immediately set off to help, descended the slope without difficulty and rescued the two survivors. Crowley refused to help and stayed at the camp. Later he wrote that he had warned them the slope was too dangerous to descend in the heat of the day, he therefore had "no sympathy" with them, and "anyway it would have taken him ten minutes to dress", so he had refused to go to their aid.
>
> Crowley was a thoroughly obnoxious character from Hastings, the town where I live, who besides being a mountaineer was a self proclaimed warlock who dabbled in Black Magic.
>
> Bearing in mind that Reymond suceeded in rescuing two of the climbers, I see nothing logical about Crowley's lack of action.
Perhaps if you think a little you will see the reason.
In reply to Trangia:
I am pretty confident that I'd be bloody useless in a crisis so given that if I went to try to get help I'd probably just end up lost... no, I DEFINITELY would end up lost...I may as well stay where I am and cuddle up with my mate.
I am pretty confident that I'd be bloody useless in a crisis so given that if I went to try to get help I'd probably just end up lost... no, I DEFINITELY would end up lost...I may as well stay where I am and cuddle up with my mate.
In reply to Fawksey:
Nothing "clever" about it, it happens to be my opinion, based on experience unfortunately. Why so aggressive?
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
> [...]
>
> Are you really smiling smugly at your own "clever" retort?
> [...]
>
> Are you really smiling smugly at your own "clever" retort?
Nothing "clever" about it, it happens to be my opinion, based on experience unfortunately. Why so aggressive?
In reply to Trangia:
I think that what happens is that there is a tipping point beond which the otherwise healthy person has, in fact, cooked their goose as well.
The problem is that the tipping point is very hard to spot...and usually the healthy person feels ok as they go past it.
In other words I think it would be easy to stay to help someone past the point where it has become terminal for you as well.
If it really was black and white (person A has a bomb strapped to them; it's going to go off and there's nothing I can do) then, I think, I would run away. And I don't think that makes me a bad person. However, in all the grey situations I have ever been in, I've stayed...but it's turned out ok.
There are some skin-crawling tales from the cave-diving community about some situations that pose questions like this.
I think that what happens is that there is a tipping point beond which the otherwise healthy person has, in fact, cooked their goose as well.
The problem is that the tipping point is very hard to spot...and usually the healthy person feels ok as they go past it.
In other words I think it would be easy to stay to help someone past the point where it has become terminal for you as well.
If it really was black and white (person A has a bomb strapped to them; it's going to go off and there's nothing I can do) then, I think, I would run away. And I don't think that makes me a bad person. However, in all the grey situations I have ever been in, I've stayed...but it's turned out ok.
There are some skin-crawling tales from the cave-diving community about some situations that pose questions like this.
In reply to Trangia:
I don't know how I would react in that situation. But is it only the question between leaving to die or dying with them, or leaving them to die or helping them, so that at least they don't have to die slowly and alone?
I don't know how I would react in that situation. But is it only the question between leaving to die or dying with them, or leaving them to die or helping them, so that at least they don't have to die slowly and alone?
In reply to Trangia:
As you said, you are not likely to be in that position ever. So your post is reduced to voyeur's post, from an armchair.
As you said, you are not likely to be in that position ever. So your post is reduced to voyeur's post, from an armchair.
In reply to violentViolet:
>
Gosh! I certainly hadn't considered that aspect. That's a rachet up in the whole scenario. Need to think about that one, but then in reality there might not be much time for thinking....
> (In reply to Trangia)
>
or helping them, so that at least they don't have to die slowly and alone?>
>
Gosh! I certainly hadn't considered that aspect. That's a rachet up in the whole scenario. Need to think about that one, but then in reality there might not be much time for thinking....
In reply to pyle:
>> And it was just posted for your own entertainment. Plus other later posters showed the same attitude. Have you ever seen someone die on a climb? To climb Everest is not what mountaineering is about.
> (In reply to Trangia)
> As you said, you are not likely to be in that position ever. So your post is reduced to voyeur's post, from an armchair.
> As you said, you are not likely to be in that position ever. So your post is reduced to voyeur's post, from an armchair.
>> And it was just posted for your own entertainment. Plus other later posters showed the same attitude. Have you ever seen someone die on a climb? To climb Everest is not what mountaineering is about.
In reply to pyle:
Yes, have you?
I don't see the relevance of your comments.
> (In reply to pyle)
> [...]
>
> >> Have you ever seen someone die on a climb?
>> [...]
>
> >> Have you ever seen someone die on a climb?
Yes, have you?
I don't see the relevance of your comments.
In reply to pyle:
Huh?? Is Everest the only place people die when climbing then?
> (In reply to pyle)
> [...]
>
> >> And it was just posted for your own entertainment. Plus other later posters showed the same attitude. Have you ever seen someone die on a climb? To climb Everest is not what mountaineering is about.
> [...]
>
> >> And it was just posted for your own entertainment. Plus other later posters showed the same attitude. Have you ever seen someone die on a climb? To climb Everest is not what mountaineering is about.
Huh?? Is Everest the only place people die when climbing then?
In reply to Ava Adore:
>> No, but the death of a British guy on Everest, a couple of days ago which was all over the media is what inspired the original post, however much Trangia may deny it.
> (In reply to pyle)
> [...]
>
> Huh?? Is Everest the only place people die when climbing then?
> [...]
>
> Huh?? Is Everest the only place people die when climbing then?
>> No, but the death of a British guy on Everest, a couple of days ago which was all over the media is what inspired the original post, however much Trangia may deny it.
In reply to pyle:
Maybe. But you imply that's the only mountain you'll die on. Doesn't have to be an exotic mountain to be a killer mountain.
Maybe. But you imply that's the only mountain you'll die on. Doesn't have to be an exotic mountain to be a killer mountain.
In reply to Ava Adore:
Your "Maybe " is a big give away, you have accepted that the op was motivated by the media, it doesn't excuse the trivialisation of climbing deaths obvious in the op.
> (In reply to pyle)
>
> Maybe.. Doesn't have to be an exotic mountain to be a killer mountain.
>
> Maybe.. Doesn't have to be an exotic mountain to be a killer mountain.
Your "Maybe " is a big give away, you have accepted that the op was motivated by the media, it doesn't excuse the trivialisation of climbing deaths obvious in the op.
In reply to Ava Adore:
>> Your "Maybe " is a big give away, you have accepted that the op was motivated by the media, it doesn't excuse the trivialisation of climbing deaths obvious in the op. Try a cycling site or darts or something.
> (In reply to pyle)
>
> Maybe.. Doesn't have to be an exotic mountain to be a killer mountain.
>
> Maybe.. Doesn't have to be an exotic mountain to be a killer mountain.
>> Your "Maybe " is a big give away, you have accepted that the op was motivated by the media, it doesn't excuse the trivialisation of climbing deaths obvious in the op. Try a cycling site or darts or something.
In reply to Bruce Hooker: Sorry Bruce. My apologies. I didnt intend to come over aggressive. I feel a bit of an arse now.
In reply to Trangia: stupidest post ever created
In reply to olliejackson:
Seems a perfectly reasonable question to ask... difficult to answer though.
Seems a perfectly reasonable question to ask... difficult to answer though.
In reply to pyle:
My "maybe" gives nothing away. It simply means that I have no idea what was going through the OP's mind when he posted. How the bloody hell would I??
My "maybe" gives nothing away. It simply means that I have no idea what was going through the OP's mind when he posted. How the bloody hell would I??
In reply to Trangia: There but for the grace of god.
In reply to elsewhere:
read it.....worse book i ever read!
although it does raise some intresting questions about leaving someone to die when you could help and save their lives because of your own summit fever.
personally I'd like to think i'd never leave anyone who needed help and no one would ever leave me but until your in that situation it's difficult to speculate about what you would do.
read it.....worse book i ever read!
although it does raise some intresting questions about leaving someone to die when you could help and save their lives because of your own summit fever.
personally I'd like to think i'd never leave anyone who needed help and no one would ever leave me but until your in that situation it's difficult to speculate about what you would do.
In reply to olliejackson:
Not by a very, very, very long way. And it doesn't matter anyway, that's what these forums are for
> (In reply to Trangia) stupidest post ever created
Not by a very, very, very long way. And it doesn't matter anyway, that's what these forums are for
In reply to Trangia:
I guess you only really find out when you get there but from the safety of my desk:
As your question is initially posed: Would I effectively commit suicide so a friend with no hope didn't have to die alone? No, almost certainly not if I were thinking anything like rationally.
Would I risk my life to help a friend in need even if their chances were slim? Yes but I honestly don't know to what degree or if/when I'd cut an run.
jk
I guess you only really find out when you get there but from the safety of my desk:
As your question is initially posed: Would I effectively commit suicide so a friend with no hope didn't have to die alone? No, almost certainly not if I were thinking anything like rationally.
Would I risk my life to help a friend in need even if their chances were slim? Yes but I honestly don't know to what degree or if/when I'd cut an run.
jk
In reply to Trangia: If they had put me in that predicament then yes i'd save myself, if not I'd risk it all to save them....if I could have their cake.
In reply to Trangia:
any answers people give without being in the situation are quite frankly worthless. Even wors are those who give opinions after the fact saying what 'they' would have done in situation x.
You get a lot more clear cut situation in the diving community. Your buddy loses his air, what do you do? Note: I'm not talking the PADI coral reef type diving game here, deep technical cave/wreck diving, you don't physically have enough air for both of you. It's why most divers dive alone, you don't want to be faced with the situation.
The Last Dive by Bernie Chowdhury is an interesting read on the topic. Father tried to sacrifice himself for his son, but they both still died very painfull deaths, the son in the end begging someone to shoot him as he lay dying in the boat.
any answers people give without being in the situation are quite frankly worthless. Even wors are those who give opinions after the fact saying what 'they' would have done in situation x.
You get a lot more clear cut situation in the diving community. Your buddy loses his air, what do you do? Note: I'm not talking the PADI coral reef type diving game here, deep technical cave/wreck diving, you don't physically have enough air for both of you. It's why most divers dive alone, you don't want to be faced with the situation.
The Last Dive by Bernie Chowdhury is an interesting read on the topic. Father tried to sacrifice himself for his son, but they both still died very painfull deaths, the son in the end begging someone to shoot him as he lay dying in the boat.
In reply to Trangia:
I've been in this situation high on Everest. Everyone would like to think they would act in a certain way, but sometimes the circumstances will mean that you really cannot help very much, and staying just because you don't want to leave will be needlessly putting yourself in danger while not actually helping the person in trouble. I think a lot of people seem to think that if they needed to help someone who had collapsed above 8000m they would somehow be able to do it through sheer willpower, but the reality is that you almost certainly could not.
After descending from the summit I came across someone who had collapsed with what I assume was HACE. This was at an altitude of approx 8750m just below the south summit at 2:30pm, fairly late in the day. There were already 5 or so people there helping him. His guide and sherpas had taken charge of the situation and was cutting some fixed lines so he could be lowered down the snow slope in small increments. The sick guy was from Oman and didn't have good English. Me and a few others stopped. I felt pretty useless, I didn't know how I could help but didn't want to just walk by. I was really exhausted and finding the descent difficult anyway, having to take frequent rests. When they started lowering him on the cut line I tried to help by holding the line with the others but really didn't contribute much. The snow was very slushy and unstable.
The sick guy was in terrible condition. He had lost consciousness a few times and apparently stopped breathing briefly. He couldn't stand for more than a few seconds at a time, and was extremely uncooperative. He kicked his guide a few times, slashing his down suit and boots. The guide had to remove his crampons. The guy somehow summoned up the energy to throw a rock at his guide (yet he didn't have the energy to move down the mountain). He had been given a new bottle of oxygen on maximum flow, 4L/min, but it didn't seem to have any positive effect. Progress was painfully, painfully slow.
After a bit I checked my oxygen supply which was low, just 1.5 hours left at my current flow rate of 2L/min. I cut the flow in half down to 1L/min to make it last a bit longer. I immediately felt worse. I remember the guide talking to the sick climber, giving a really harroing pep talk, something to the effect of "I am trying to help you, but you have to meet me halfway, you have to stand up and move or you are going to die". Really grim.
After two hours of this we had hardly progressed at all, maybe got about 30m - 40m down the mountain, to the end of the snow slope beneath the south summit. Below was a slightly steeper rocky section. Given how long it had taken to get this far, and how little oxygen I had left I decided to leave and go down. I walked past this guy believing that he was going to die and I felt truly awful, but I didn't think me staying would help. In the next 2.5 hours I would run out of oxygen and I was still very high. It was 4:30pm and I was at approx 8700m. Still 800m to go to get down to the South Col. I wasn't helping much anyway, just occasionally holding the rope, it was the guide and his sherpas that were doing everything. The reality was I was not strong enough to be of much use.
I just added a picture to my gallery which shows the progress made during the time I was there:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=146766
I thought this was a hopeless situation.
(When I took this picture I did not know the guy was in trouble, I thought I was getting a picture of the South Col.)
I started descending, and it found it very difficult. I was making very slow progress and met a sherpa just below the balcony as the sun was going down. He was on his way up carrying a sleeping bag, hot drink and oxygen. I told him where I had last seen them and wished him luck. It was now dark and and I was alone. I was struggling and at an altitude I estimate to be about 8300 - 8200m my oxygen ran out. Things got harder. It's hard to describe what this felt like, kind of like being drunk. Luckily it was a relatively warm night so frostite wasn't too serious a concern. I could see the lights from tents on the south col but they didn't seem to be getting any closer. I had to fight the urge to sit down and sleep. A couple of times I sat down to rest and didn't get up for 10 minutes. I had to really force myself to keep moving. I eventually got down and crawled into my tent a bit after 9pm. It had been 23 hours since I left for the summit. Apart from a couple of hours snoozing at camp 3 on the way up, I had been awake for about 60 hours. I was beyond exhausted and went to sleep almost immediately.
I had always imagined what it would feel like to have summited and got down ok, I thought it would be amazing. When I woke up the next day I just felt bad, kind of empty, in light of what had happened the summit seemed inconsequential. I got down to C2 that day, which I found more difficult than I had imagined. At camp 2 I met a friend who told me the sick climber had died. But he had been misinformed.
Miraculously, the guy did not die. The sherpa I met on the way down reached them with his supplies. The guide and sherpas helping the sick guy did an almost superhuman job of getting him down the mountain, most of the time without oxygen themselves. They got him a fair way down the mountain, to somewhere between 8300m and 8100m (have heard conflicting reports). Where ever it was, it was apparently near Scott Fischer's body. At this point they decided they could not do any more in their current condition. They put him in the sleeping bag, gave him a drink and strapped his oxygen mask on with a new bottle, then headed down to the south col. The first people going up the next day mistakenly said that he was dead. The next group that found him realised he wasn't, and helped him down to the south col. Having a nights sleep out in the open above 8000m somehow seemed to do him good, because he had improved enough that he could walk down with a lot of help. He escaped from this with just a bit of frostbite to a few fingers.
Obviously I don't feel great about my part in this, because when I left I thought I was leaving this guy to die. But at the same time, I honestly don't think me staying would have helped. I was not strong enough to make a difference. I am not a sherpa or a guide who is on 8000ers a couple of times a year and spends a good proportion of their time at high altitude. If I had not gone down, at the rate progress was being made I think I would have run out of oxygen at around 8650m and I would pretty soon be in a state where I needed rescuing myself, and there is a fair chance I would have died. But if the sick climber's guide and sherpas had taken my attitude and given up, then he would definitely have died. I think that to help the sick climber was not possible for me, but clearly was possible for the guide and sherpas. I have often thought about how I would have reacted if this was a close friend in trouble rather than a stranger. It's not easy to answer. I think the fact that I didn't know the guy in trouble makes it easier to think about things logically.
Here is the whole story from the guide's perspective:
http://www.peakfreaks.com/everestnews2008.htm
I've been in this situation high on Everest. Everyone would like to think they would act in a certain way, but sometimes the circumstances will mean that you really cannot help very much, and staying just because you don't want to leave will be needlessly putting yourself in danger while not actually helping the person in trouble. I think a lot of people seem to think that if they needed to help someone who had collapsed above 8000m they would somehow be able to do it through sheer willpower, but the reality is that you almost certainly could not.
After descending from the summit I came across someone who had collapsed with what I assume was HACE. This was at an altitude of approx 8750m just below the south summit at 2:30pm, fairly late in the day. There were already 5 or so people there helping him. His guide and sherpas had taken charge of the situation and was cutting some fixed lines so he could be lowered down the snow slope in small increments. The sick guy was from Oman and didn't have good English. Me and a few others stopped. I felt pretty useless, I didn't know how I could help but didn't want to just walk by. I was really exhausted and finding the descent difficult anyway, having to take frequent rests. When they started lowering him on the cut line I tried to help by holding the line with the others but really didn't contribute much. The snow was very slushy and unstable.
The sick guy was in terrible condition. He had lost consciousness a few times and apparently stopped breathing briefly. He couldn't stand for more than a few seconds at a time, and was extremely uncooperative. He kicked his guide a few times, slashing his down suit and boots. The guide had to remove his crampons. The guy somehow summoned up the energy to throw a rock at his guide (yet he didn't have the energy to move down the mountain). He had been given a new bottle of oxygen on maximum flow, 4L/min, but it didn't seem to have any positive effect. Progress was painfully, painfully slow.
After a bit I checked my oxygen supply which was low, just 1.5 hours left at my current flow rate of 2L/min. I cut the flow in half down to 1L/min to make it last a bit longer. I immediately felt worse. I remember the guide talking to the sick climber, giving a really harroing pep talk, something to the effect of "I am trying to help you, but you have to meet me halfway, you have to stand up and move or you are going to die". Really grim.
After two hours of this we had hardly progressed at all, maybe got about 30m - 40m down the mountain, to the end of the snow slope beneath the south summit. Below was a slightly steeper rocky section. Given how long it had taken to get this far, and how little oxygen I had left I decided to leave and go down. I walked past this guy believing that he was going to die and I felt truly awful, but I didn't think me staying would help. In the next 2.5 hours I would run out of oxygen and I was still very high. It was 4:30pm and I was at approx 8700m. Still 800m to go to get down to the South Col. I wasn't helping much anyway, just occasionally holding the rope, it was the guide and his sherpas that were doing everything. The reality was I was not strong enough to be of much use.
I just added a picture to my gallery which shows the progress made during the time I was there:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=146766
I thought this was a hopeless situation.
(When I took this picture I did not know the guy was in trouble, I thought I was getting a picture of the South Col.)
I started descending, and it found it very difficult. I was making very slow progress and met a sherpa just below the balcony as the sun was going down. He was on his way up carrying a sleeping bag, hot drink and oxygen. I told him where I had last seen them and wished him luck. It was now dark and and I was alone. I was struggling and at an altitude I estimate to be about 8300 - 8200m my oxygen ran out. Things got harder. It's hard to describe what this felt like, kind of like being drunk. Luckily it was a relatively warm night so frostite wasn't too serious a concern. I could see the lights from tents on the south col but they didn't seem to be getting any closer. I had to fight the urge to sit down and sleep. A couple of times I sat down to rest and didn't get up for 10 minutes. I had to really force myself to keep moving. I eventually got down and crawled into my tent a bit after 9pm. It had been 23 hours since I left for the summit. Apart from a couple of hours snoozing at camp 3 on the way up, I had been awake for about 60 hours. I was beyond exhausted and went to sleep almost immediately.
I had always imagined what it would feel like to have summited and got down ok, I thought it would be amazing. When I woke up the next day I just felt bad, kind of empty, in light of what had happened the summit seemed inconsequential. I got down to C2 that day, which I found more difficult than I had imagined. At camp 2 I met a friend who told me the sick climber had died. But he had been misinformed.
Miraculously, the guy did not die. The sherpa I met on the way down reached them with his supplies. The guide and sherpas helping the sick guy did an almost superhuman job of getting him down the mountain, most of the time without oxygen themselves. They got him a fair way down the mountain, to somewhere between 8300m and 8100m (have heard conflicting reports). Where ever it was, it was apparently near Scott Fischer's body. At this point they decided they could not do any more in their current condition. They put him in the sleeping bag, gave him a drink and strapped his oxygen mask on with a new bottle, then headed down to the south col. The first people going up the next day mistakenly said that he was dead. The next group that found him realised he wasn't, and helped him down to the south col. Having a nights sleep out in the open above 8000m somehow seemed to do him good, because he had improved enough that he could walk down with a lot of help. He escaped from this with just a bit of frostbite to a few fingers.
Obviously I don't feel great about my part in this, because when I left I thought I was leaving this guy to die. But at the same time, I honestly don't think me staying would have helped. I was not strong enough to make a difference. I am not a sherpa or a guide who is on 8000ers a couple of times a year and spends a good proportion of their time at high altitude. If I had not gone down, at the rate progress was being made I think I would have run out of oxygen at around 8650m and I would pretty soon be in a state where I needed rescuing myself, and there is a fair chance I would have died. But if the sick climber's guide and sherpas had taken my attitude and given up, then he would definitely have died. I think that to help the sick climber was not possible for me, but clearly was possible for the guide and sherpas. I have often thought about how I would have reacted if this was a close friend in trouble rather than a stranger. It's not easy to answer. I think the fact that I didn't know the guy in trouble makes it easier to think about things logically.
Here is the whole story from the guide's perspective:
http://www.peakfreaks.com/everestnews2008.htm
In reply to Topper Harley,The care and humility you felt shines through in your thread,you have nothing to reproach yourself for.
In reply to Topper Harley:
You came across this situation on the way down from the summit. It's not like you walked past him on the way up and said forget him, I'm going to the top.
You came across this situation on the way down from the summit. It's not like you walked past him on the way up and said forget him, I'm going to the top.
In reply to Topper Harley:
Thank you, very sobering story.
I guess that poses the question: 'Should people that have not been in a position like that posed in the OP comment?'
An armchair comment could hurt a lot of people that were in a position like the OP where they feel guilty about a decision or unsure on whether their reaction was correct.
I think we run the chance of causing more damage than good with this thread...
James
Thank you, very sobering story.
I guess that poses the question: 'Should people that have not been in a position like that posed in the OP comment?'
An armchair comment could hurt a lot of people that were in a position like the OP where they feel guilty about a decision or unsure on whether their reaction was correct.
I think we run the chance of causing more damage than good with this thread...
James
In reply to Trangia:
Great Post about your experience.
Reminded me of my friends Rob and Andy who died in the infamous affair. Rob choosing to stay with his client and talking to his wife on the sat phone... and Andy disappearing going to help.
As an aside NZ has a really high incidence of drownings and often it is a rescuer who ends up drowning either as well or instead the original. Authorities try to educate people to make a suitable risk assessment but I do not think it is always easy to not try help.
Great Post about your experience.
Reminded me of my friends Rob and Andy who died in the infamous affair. Rob choosing to stay with his client and talking to his wife on the sat phone... and Andy disappearing going to help.
As an aside NZ has a really high incidence of drownings and often it is a rescuer who ends up drowning either as well or instead the original. Authorities try to educate people to make a suitable risk assessment but I do not think it is always easy to not try help.
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