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Ratho

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 DANNYdjb 02 Jun 2010
I visited Ratho this weekend. What a truely remarkable palce. It is a shame it is struggling for funds. The whole facility is everything you could want. Its a shame it cant be relocated, it would do excellent some where in the middle of leeds, sheffiled and manchester.. Any one got a spare quarry they want to convert any where.
Dan
 hexcentric 02 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb:
> It is a shame it is struggling for funds.

No, it's not.

In reply to hexcentric:
> (In reply to DANNYdjb)
> [...]
>
> No, it's not.

No it's not a shame

or

No it's not struggling for funds?

 hexcentric 02 Jun 2010
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet:

Haha, oops.
The second one.
Future pretty secure there now - well as secure as anywhere these days.
OP DANNYdjb 02 Jun 2010
In reply to hexcentric: i hope so things must have improved quite dramatically in the last few months.

Climbing centre hangs by thread as '£1,000-a-day' costs deemed too high


«By BRIAN FERGUSON
A TROUBLED multi-million- pound climbing centre faces complete closure or having its opening hours dramatically cut after continuing to run at a loss more than six years after opening its doors
 niggle 02 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb:

Blimey, not this tripe again. Hold on while I see if one of the ratho staff can sort you out with the facts.
 hexcentric 02 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb:

Where did you dig that out from? Why?
Inaccurate and unhelpful nonsense.
OP DANNYdjb 02 Jun 2010
In reply to hexcentric: it came form the scotsman !!
 hexcentric 02 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb:
Yes, from last year. A poorly researched and prejudiced piece, shame on you for giving it another airing.
 jacobfinn 02 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb:
> Its a shame it cant be relocated, it would do excellent some where in the middle of leeds, sheffiled and manchester.

And I'm glad that its only 6 miles from my house. It would be crap if it was in Englandshire.

OP DANNYdjb 02 Jun 2010
In reply to hexcentric:
Having been there on a rainy saturday and sunday, and only being thirty os so people in on a half term a few miles outside of one of scotlands main cities. I wouldnt want to bet on its future on that sort of daily turnover. like i said the place is stunning. Its shame it is so empty on what should have been a busy day for it.
Time will tell.

dan
OP DANNYdjb 02 Jun 2010
In reply to jacobfinn: But it would be busy.
 hexcentric 02 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb:
Don't worry about it so much. Rising numbers, new investment. All is good.
 monkeys 03 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb:
> (In reply to hexcentric) it came form the scotsman !!

Here's a response - also printed in the Scotsman


Published Date: 15 October 2009
I was extremely disappointed with many aspects of your report "Climbing centre hangs by thread as '£1,000-a-day' costs deemed too high" (10 October).
When Edinburgh Leisure took over the management of Edinburgh International Climbing Arena in 2005, the venue was making a loss of about £1.2 million a year. In 2008-09 the "loss" was approximately £670,000 and is anticipated to be around £500,00
ADVERTISEMENT
0 this year – a significant reduction by any standard.

You say: "Officials at Edinburgh Leisure ... face a race against time to persuade the council to offer the complex a lifeline" and: "The council is believed to be considering a string of options, including trying to find a private buyer, cutting its hours or closing it completely." Edinburgh Leisure has had no discussions regarding the sale of EICA, a reduction in hours or temporary closure.

The EICA offers world-class facilities and has reported a 14 per cent rise in usage and a 10 per cent rise in income this year compared to last year.

It recently achieved a five-star status by Visit Scotland, and was accredited as "The National Centre for Indoor Climbing" by the Mountaineering Council of Scotland. This is a far cry from the position when the council bought the venue and EL started to manage it.

All of the above suggests the venue is far from "troubled". It is attracting increasing numbers of visitors and playing a key role in the provision of public leisure facilities to the people of Edinburgh. It is an expensive venue to operate, as are several other services managed by EL on behalf of City of Edinburgh Council. The EICA does not cover its operating costs. However, no direct subsidy is paid by the council to EL for this facility.

KEITH JACKSON

Chief executive, Edinburgh Leisure

Nicolson Street, Edinburgh

 Fraser 03 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb:
> (In reply to hexcentric)
> Having been there on a rainy saturday and sunday, and only being thirty os so people in on a half term

If you're talking about the Saturday just passed (ie 29th May) I was in that day too. Although it was quite quiet to start off, it soon got busy. The place is huge and swallows folk with ease, so it can look empty, but in fact have lots of folk in it. If you were in on the Sunday, it was maybe empty because it was such a nice day and folk would rather be outside climbing!
 crombie 03 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb:

The "Hootsman" tends to release one of these doom and gloom stories about the EICA every year so I wouldn't be surprised if there was another in the offing. Perhaps if a better researched article came out I'd have a bit more time for them. Toilets still work, the roof is still on and people are still climbing. Well worth a visit if your passing through.
 jacobfinn 03 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb:
Ratho is run by EL as one of many sports facilities in the edinburgh area, including golf courses, swimming centres, gyms and bowling greens. I don't think any of them have their running costs covered by the punters through the door. These places provide residents with a range of activities to keep the good people of auld reekie fit in mind, body and spirit.

Ratho also attracts more than just climbers - there's martial arts clubs who use it, folk at the gym, wee kiddies in play area and screaming girls on the skyride (and boy do they scream!)
 oor wullie 03 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb:

Whilst the short term future of Ratho is apparently secure there is some question about longer term.
Ratho is funded by Edinburgh Leisure. Edinburgh Leisure is a company run by the council. Council decisions are made by politicians.

I was speaking to my local counciller a couple of months ago who would like to see all council support withdrawn from Ratho because 1) it would save the council some money and 2) because it is unfair on other walls in the area to have a subsidised competitor.

I am sure not all councillers see it like this but be aware that at least one does.

 pigeonjim 03 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb:
> Its a shame it cant be relocated, it would do excellent some where in the middle of leeds, sheffiled and manchester..

Is this jealously or are you suggesting scottish people dont climb? Most times I have been to ratho it has been busy.

bagger 03 Jun 2010
In reply to oor wullie:

I cant believe I am hearing that from a climber. What do you think the council would spend that "saved" money on? Maybe some more on the trams, or maybe improving all the other "great" leisure facilities that they provide us with.

Lets face it, there are enough miserable community centres and scabby swimming pools, Edinburgh has something to be really proud of - a beautiful centre with good facilities.

Dont get me wrong I have no objection to seeing improvements in the way things are run, and cost saving exercises - but lets support it instead of being negative all the time. Shame on you.
 Robert Durran 03 Jun 2010
In reply to oor wullie:
> (In reply to DANNYdjb)
>
> I was speaking to my local counciller a couple of months ago who would like to see all council support withdrawn from Ratho because it is unfair on other walls in the area to have a subsidised competitor.
>
I believe Alien Rock is still thriving and stuffed to (over)capacity!
One of its owners told me a while back that it was not at all suffering from the competition.
 crombie 03 Jun 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

and as far as I know all the other walls in the area are private or being refurbished, can't think of anywhere else remotely close by
 oor wullie 03 Jun 2010
In reply to bagger:

Hey, I do support Ratho and think it is a brilliant investment for the council. It is a much better use for the council tax I pay than most things they spend it on.

All I am saying is that some councillors I know would be happy to withdraw support for their own political reasons. I do try to persuade them otherwise but on my own probably won't make a difference. If you want to do something positive why don't you let your councillor (assuming you live in Edinburgh) know how much the place is valued. If you want a starting point the ones that might need most persuasion are probably Tories.
 niggle 03 Jun 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

> One of its owners told me a while back that it was not at all suffering from the competition.

It would make sense, wouldn't it? More walls means more people start climbing, going for taster sessions, lessons and so on, which leads to more climber and more customers for everyone.
 oor wullie 03 Jun 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

That was the feeling that I got as Alien Rock always seems to be busy when I go.

The problem is that some people, who hold the political view though that government should have nothing to do with going anywhere private buisness, simply set their heads against it regardless of the facts because their politics demand it.
 Martin W 03 Jun 2010
In reply to oor wullie:

> I was speaking to my local counciller a couple of months ago who would like to see all council support withdrawn from Ratho because ... it is unfair on other walls in the area to have a subsidised competitor.

So what about the council-run golf courses, gyms and swimming pools? As they tend to be substantially cheaper to use than their privately-owned competitors, aren't they unfair too?

I certainly haven't noticed any private golf clubs closing down around Edinburgh recently. One near me has just completed a major expansion!
 Bill Davidson 03 Jun 2010
In reply to Martin W:

Don't vote Tory then! They are going to mothball the place if they ever win power on the council. It was in one of their manifesto thingy's!
The Bastards!
 Mike_Gannon 03 Jun 2010
In reply to Martin W: Whole heartedly agree!

I am very jealous of anyone who lives in Edinburgh. if you buy a local council annual gym membership you get Ratho thrown in for free.

The council in Birmingham shut our wall down because they wanted to develop the land into a sports centre. Then blocked every attempt for the guys to build a decent replacement. nearly 10 years later it's still sitting an empty husk. (Red point is a great substitute though )
 jacobfinn 03 Jun 2010
Edinburgh has two "world class" sporting facilities that cater for "minority" sports - Ratho and the Hillend Ski Centre. Seems that neither Edinburgh Council that runs Ratho and Midlothian council that runs or did run Hillend know what to do with them.

Its one thing councils going on about these places as world class, but they don't exactly go out of their way to promote them.

In the case of Ratho, why is there no scheduled bus service to the place? Buses go to the nearby village of Ratho, so why not make it easy for punters to get to the climbing centre? There's point saying that not enough people use the centre, which is clearly not true anyway, yet no bus service is provided to take people there.

How much promotion does Ratho actually get in council literature? Are we as climbers thought of as a minority interest, even though 000s of us are active in our sport, spending £millions every year doing it. We all know how far climbers and walkers are prepared to travel in order to pursue their interests.

Does the council, and especially the councillors who want to see the end of Ratho actually know what climbing is about. They obviously know what golf or bowls is, probably because most of them play it. But I doubt many climb, and therefore assume that we are small in number compared to golfers or bowlers, and therefore we wont miss ratho if it shut, and the money saved would be better used elswhere on other sports played by more numerous people, eg tiddly-winks?

Whilst its maybe not in immediate danger, it is worth all of us keeping a watching brief the plans for Ratho. Its such a fantistic place that to loose it to ignorance would be terrible.
 Robert Durran 04 Jun 2010
In reply to Martin W:
> (In reply to oor wullie)
>
> [...]
>
> So what about the council-run golf courses, gyms and swimming pools? As they tend to be substantially cheaper to use than their privately-owned competitors, aren't they unfair too?
>
And what about council run schools. Shouldn't they be closed because they give unfair subsidised competition to private schools?
Dirk Didler 04 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb: Ilive quite near ratho and its a great venue unfortunatley it is under used,no not by climbers but by the general public,if you go in on any day its quite busy but really only at the weekends is it full,i see this as not the fault of joe public but the council themselves who to be honest have never really grasped what they have,why not kill 2 birds with 1 stone, we are constantly told that our kids are getting more and more unfit well it would seem resonable for the education department to send kids there,moneys derived from this would keep the place running at a profit while also keeping these kids fit as well as maybe bringing on the next generation of climbers.
 niggle 04 Jun 2010
In reply to Dirk Didler:

The next generation of climbers is very much on its way from Ratho already - there are guys like Robbie Phillips who are just breaking into the top grades, Natalie Berry, and further down the line younger folks like Rachel, who's just won her BMC leading ladder final, and grass roots starters like Angus, who's half my height and climbs double my grade.

The staff at Ratho are well aware that the facility has the potential to produce great climbers, and world class comp climbers in particular. After all, most comps will be on 35+ metre steeply overhanging walls, and how many places in the UK can you train on exactly that sort of wall?

So the staff put in inordinate amounts of time and effort doing strcutured training programmes, monitoring results and mentoring the young climbers. Thos younger climbers in turn can often be seen teaching the younger ones still. It's fantastic to see and a leap forward from the old-fashioned "just go climbing" training ethics.
Dirk Didler 04 Jun 2010
In reply to niggle: Maybe not being to clear mate, i'm thinking more on the general under use by schools"both primary and secondary" and how education departments could be using this venue, i'm in total agreement about the commitment from the staff as i myself have benefited from it and my daughter, the point i'm trying to make is that i don't wont it to close because of lack of use,yes climbers will use it and if they have kids take them and those kids will probably turn into good climbers,BUT it's weather it makes money that will be the deciding factor of weather or not it stays open and that will be decided by revenue.
 Nick_Scots 04 Jun 2010
In reply to Dirk Didler:

I teach and take kids there in the winter and on wet evenings.

I'm sorry you have such a negative view of the education dept but you may not know the facts about the way schools are run and funded. Every time a teacher is out of school someone has to take there class which will be at least 20pupils. So they can't take them all climbing, ratios are not that big. Covering that teachers class costs money for supply staff.

Teachers are under pressure from management, HMi and politicians and the media to raise attainmnet. Very few managers allow teachers out during the day.

By all means get qualified and run a youth club for your local climbers.

Happy Climbing
Dirk Didler 04 Jun 2010
In reply to Scott_vzr: Sorry mate but you've got the dog by the wrong end,what the tread is about is under use by other educational departments with in the council and not with the people at the sharp end,we all know teachers are under extreme pressure to meet targets.
Removed User 05 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb:

Does anyone actually know how much money Ratho loses every year? It would be good to understand what the original business plan was when the council bought Ratho, for £8 million IIRC, and whether the losses it's making now are part of the plan.

If Ratho were ever to close I reckon something as good as Ratho could be built just round the corner from where I live in the city centre for a fraction of either the original £23 million that was ploughed into it or the £8 million (?) that Edinburgh leisure paid for it. If you do a few simple calcs it's very easy to figure out that you can't spend millions on a climbing wall and expect to get a return on it.
Wiley Coyote2 05 Jun 2010
In reply to DANNYdjb:

I've never been to Ratho but I find it interesting that the place is now deemed a success because it "only" losing £500,000 a year. Congratulations to whoever managed to cut the loss from £1.2m a year. They have clearly down a great job but the bottom line remains that it's still in the red to the tune of £500,000 a year - and counting. With councils under pressure to save cash I can't find much to quibble with in the choice of the words "stuggling" or "running at a loss".
I hope it stays open but some beady-eyed town hall accountand will have their eye on all that red ink and some councillor will have their eye on the £500 grand a year for "core services" for their ward rather than serving a loss-making minority interest. Be warned!
 BelleVedere 05 Jun 2010
In reply to Mike_Gannon:
> (In reply to Martin W) Whole heartedly agree!
>
> I am very jealous of anyone who lives in Edinburgh. if you buy a local council annual gym membership you get Ratho thrown in for free.

No you don't - you have to buy a special climbing wall membership

 monkeys 05 Jun 2010
In reply to es:
> (In reply to Mike_Gannon)
> [...]
>
> No you don't - you have to buy a special climbing wall membership

Which IIRC cost only £6 more than my gym only membership

 Glansa 05 Jun 2010
In reply to es:

Indeed, but membership of Ratho gets you into all EL gyms and pools. Most handy!
 Nick_Scots 06 Jun 2010
In reply to Dirk Didler: You mentioned under use by Primary and Secondary pupils and revenue.

Who will be paying those kids in ? Who will be instructing them ?

Don't think you know enough about these systems to be telling them how to operate.

Nick

Dirk Didler 07 Jun 2010
In reply to Scott_vzr: There's none as blind as them that can't see eh Nick.
OP DANNYdjb 07 Jun 2010
In reply to pigeonjim: jealousy
In reply to niggle:
> (In reply to Dirk Didler)
most comps will be on 35+ metre steeply overhanging walls,
>

No they are not, most international comps are are walls up to 16-18m vertical height.

But the gist of what you say is true.


OP DANNYdjb 07 Jun 2010
In reply to Dirk Didler: totally agree
OP DANNYdjb 07 Jun 2010
In reply to Dirk Didler: totaly agree
 Nick_Scots 07 Jun 2010
In reply to Dirk Didler:
> (In reply to Scott_vzr) Sorry mate but you've got the dog by the wrong end,what the tread is about is under use by other educational departments with in the council and not with the people at the sharp end,we all know teachers are under extreme pressure to meet targets.

So what users other than Teachers would take pupils and who will pay for it ?

You have lost me........

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