UKC

Peak Area Meeting - Fixed Belays at Millstone?

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 MattH 03 Jun 2010
AGENDA

Meeting to be held on Wednesday 9th June 2010

The Winking Man Pub
Buxton Road, Upper Hulme, ST13 8UH

8pm – please note the later start so we can climb and walk beforehand

1. Apologies
2. Actions from the last meeting
3. Access updates
4. Guidebooks update
5. Peak Area Newsletter
6. Bolted lower-offs on Millstone
7. Bolt Policy
8. Any other business
9. Date, time and venue of the next meeting
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 04 Jun 2010
In reply to MattH:

Fixed belays? Just in the Keyhole Caves, or further afield?

Chris
 redsulike 04 Jun 2010
In reply to MattH: All we seem to discuss at the moment is which crag to bolt next, and how that it is definitely, 'not the thin end of the wedge', (thought I'd include that platitude to save someone the bother later.)
 Simon Caldwell 04 Jun 2010
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Presumably just a ruse to get people to the meeting.

There'd be no point discussing the idea, any bolt placed would be unlikely to survive until the next morning.
 Offwidth 04 Jun 2010
In reply to Toreador:

I thought the meetings were really about faciliting local linkage in the BMC, keeping in touch with Peak developments (esp access) and meeting people who care about peak climbing and walking. The latter being most important to me. I dont see any ruse.. plenty of peak crags have bolts including quite a few historical oddities on grit.

Maybe such 'cynicism' is a ruse not to go
 Adam Long 04 Jun 2010
In reply to redsulike:

The Millstone issue is on the agenda as it was raised by Martin Kocsis' recent article here:

http://www.climber.co.uk/categories/articleitem.asp?item=586

Subsequent UKC thread here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=407633

My personal feeling is that is unlikely to garner much support. However I am very concerned by Martin's tone in the article where he criticises the way BMC area meets get to their decisions, and would interested to discuss whether his 'elitist' complaint is a widely held one.
 Southern Bell 05 Jun 2010
In reply to MattH:

I'd be entirely happy to support fixed lower offs where any insitu gear is flakey (risky) - anyone who does not agree can simply not clip them - I'd be pretty sure it's only older climbers who would protest anyway.

My 10p
 Simon 05 Jun 2010
In reply to redsulike:
> (In reply to MattH) All we seem to discuss at the moment is which crag to bolt next, and how that it is definitely, 'not the thin end of the wedge', (thought I'd include that platitude to save someone the bother later.)



Bolts always will be on the agenda - its healthy that we discuss them. Any agenda items can always be raised - bolts or no - that's why we have an open & I hope democratic meeting. Something which Martin K obviously disagrees on - but then again, I can count on one hand the amount of times he has attended over the past 5 years.

Millstone is a quarry with a history of pegs & tat - and always will have that slightly different ethic than other crags in the peak. I have no problem with pegs being replaced if done sensitively - and indeed it has been done in the keyhole cave area, but bolts are not necessary on gritstone in this part of the land.

Si
 redsulike 05 Jun 2010
In reply to Adam Long: Thanks Adam, I hadn't read that article or the thread, I have now.

Unsurprisingly I disagree with Martin about the need to place bolts, any bolts, anywhere, even bolted lower offs. Neither am I an elite climber seeking to keep routes elite, as he suggests was the case at a Peak Area meeting. (How funny that statement reads when you see me struggling not to fall off a v-diff!)

I am concerned though, that from my perspective there is an agenda in within the BMC to shake itself free of it's traditionalist roots. And a resentment within the BMC that any move towards modernisation it seeks to introduce is opposed simply for oppositions sake by crusty old feckers. I feel there is an antipathy towards clubs and the 'traditional' values they represent. My view is that the current people who make up the management and organisation of the BMC are out of step with the membership, who are naturally conservative in their climbing.
The drive towards sport ethics, competitions, the olympics, the bolt fund are all driven by a minority number of climbers that represent the majority who attend Area Meetings.If I agree with Martin it might be that Area Meetings are undemocratic, but then neither he or I seem to get our own way.

Democracy may have little to do with it. At one of the first meetings I attended there was a lively debate about the bolting of one particular (limestone) climb. (insert the name of the climb here) It was agreed that it should be investigated further and discussed again at the next meeting. No need. By the time of the next meeting it had already been bolted, and climbed safely without fear of a ground fall, albeit without the blessing of, and funding of, the BMC. The same applies as has already been said, if the bolted lower off appeared at Millstone one afternoon, it would be gone in the morning. I think it is called voting with your feet.
 Mr Lopez 05 Jun 2010
In reply to MattH:
I actually had a similar conversation while climbing at millstone last week, as to how stupidly dangerous the "belay" at the cave is, and on how everyone is happy to abseil/belay off the wobbly fence stakes at the top.
The solution was for us clear, without having to resort to bolting.
A few well placed stakes should do the trick to be used instead of the fence posts as well as a couple more in the keyhole cave.
A lot of the routes finishing in the ledges have adequate placements to set-up belays, and it'd be wrong to place bolts there.

Just an outsiders opinion who is neither a local, nor a regular.

 Mr Lopez 05 Jun 2010
In reply to MattH:
I actually had a similar conversation while climbing at millstone last week, as to how stupidly dangerous the "belay" at the cave is, and on how everyone is happy to abseil/belay off the wobbly fence stakes at the top.

The solution was for us clear, without having to resort to bolting.

A few well placed stakes should do the trick to be used instead of the fence posts as well as a couple more in the keyhole cave.

A lot of the routes finishing in the ledges have adequate placements to set-up belays, and it'd be wrong to place bolts there.

Just an outsiders opinion who is neither a local, nor a regular.
 Chris Fitzhugh 06 Jun 2010
In reply to redsulike:

Peak area meetings are what people (who bother to turn up) make them. Climbing games are various and your traditionalist line (which I broadly share) is only one of many. It will always be impossible to get a true averaged opinion as it is in many democratic processes where attendance is low: it depends who bothers to vote.

On the positive side in these meetings I've seen good democratic initiatives launched (in particular challenging BMC club block votes), been kept fully informed of local development (esp access issues) and have been able to get involved with all sorts of other local activities including: guidebook work, crag clean-ups, litter clearance, meeting and becoming friendly with other local activitists.

Ask not what the BMC can do for you... and all that....

Offwidth on a friend's computer.
 Jonny2vests 07 Jun 2010
In reply to Mr Lopez:
> (In reply to MattH)
> I actually had a similar conversation while climbing at millstone last week, as to how stupidly dangerous the "belay" at the cave is, and on how everyone is happy to abseil/belay off the wobbly fence stakes at the top.
>
> The solution was for us clear, without having to resort to bolting.
>
> A few well placed stakes should do the trick to be used instead of the fence posts as well as a couple more in the keyhole cave.

A couple of stakes in the keyhole cave?

The solution to me is clear, there's no obligation to belay in the cave, so don't climb in if you can't climb out.
 Mr Lopez 08 Jun 2010
In reply to jonny2vests:

> The solution to me is clear, there's no obligation to belay in the cave, so don't climb in if you can't climb out.

I'd agree with that if it weren't because most guidebooks recommend a few first pitches to be done on it's own, and if you read through the blogs that seems to be the most popular option. Also, for routes such as Piccadilly or Oxford it says you belay on the cave, and so i did.
The newest guidebooks do mention the poor belays,but people using the older ones will still climb up what the guide says is a belay, only to arrive to the cave and find themselves in a dangerous situation.

The stake already exist there, and it has for decades, it just got past it's due date and needs to be replaced.


 Brian Rodgers 08 Jun 2010
In reply to MattH:

The routes around the keyhole cave are single pitch and go from the bottom to the top of the crag.
If a bolt is placed in the cave it will be mid-route on quality routes and it will spoil those routes.

No-one would suggest putting a lower off half way up Great North Road for those who want to climb VS – why is it ok on Piccadilly Circus?

There are about 30 other HVS climbs at Millstone – mainly of pretty good quality - for those who cannot manage the top sections.

Mistakes have been made in the past. That does not mean we should repeat them.

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