UKC

Repeated this at the weekend, second time spread over 7 years or so. Both times I have only just managed to lead it cleanly. This time my feet were slipping downwards on the crucial layback moves at the same time as my arms were climbing upwards. Comedy climbing.

However, I fail to see how this is 5a. I don't actually argue with HVS as the pro is very good. However, this has to be a very good 5b and I would put it quite high in the grade. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone else get up it cleanly (I'm sure lots do but my point is I have seen many failures and no clean ascents).

I just checked the UKC logbook entry for it, which is interesting.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2526

Basically, the majority of people who have expressed an opinion have graded it 5a and mostly easy to mid HVS. Yet, a very clear minority have led it cleanly onsight, most have only "climbed" it. Which is very telling. So, how can this be an easy to mid grade HVS 5a? Surely most people who throw themselves at a trad HVS 5a would think they had a very good chance of success, and I am pretty sure empirically this is correct.

Just interested and not trying to justify my comedy climbing.

In reply to JonC:


I, for one, don't bother setting the "style" bit of a logbook entry unless I've dogged it, so I wouldn't take those ratios as reliable.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

if you compare to other routes though it does show a clear trend.

have you done y'broga and any comments?

In reply to JonC:

I don't have a problem with it being HVS 5a, abiet a little bit pollished, but then again so are First Slip and Leg Slip, but more exposed and less well protected on the crux. You have to have a top representation of any grade and Y'Broga (The Frog) fits that quite well

In reply to JonC:

It did us to be tricky at VS!

In reply to Bulls Crack:


and 4c to boot. It's one of those routes that's always going to be a bit of a battle

In reply to JonC:

I haven't done it for decades but it is nasty. Just looking down it from Oberon makes you shudder. But a lot of folk won't question grades. Either that or they are stronger than they think.

In reply to JonC:


yes and its steady 5a if you know how to layback properly and place your feet on holds rather than use friction smears

In
reply to JonC:
Why layback it ? There's a much easier way of doing it. Most probably hardish 4c or easy 5a. The polish is a natural sheen which has always been there.

In reply to davidwright:

There aren't any holds on the "crucial" sectin of the layback. There are some slightly rougher sections, but no edges.

For the most part there are at least edgesI agree. But the one section is not 5a.

In reply to Pencarth:


Because the guidebook actually says to climb the corner crack and I don't think you can jam it and didn't see enough holds high on the LH wall to pull yourself up that way. So laybacking seemed the way forward (which I think the guidebook actually says iirc).

If you meant you can head out rightwards then that seems to be off-piste and maybe you didn't get the full tick?

In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:


Thank you. My point really is that polish must at some point start to change the grade. Is "polished 5a" really 5a any more? If it's harder to make the move, doesn't it become a harder tech grade? To me this seems transparently obvious, but not to some people.

Crack & Corner at Stanage has I think been promoted from V Diff to Severe 4b (one of my 1st leads god help me). Hasn't FB also gone up a grade too, due to polish on the crux step up?

Another polished horror (though fun in a masochistic way) is Brown Slabs Crack at Shepherds. 4c, I think not.

Why not just acknowledge this in guidebooks but be confident enough to maintain the adj grade if it is well protected etc? I will be very interested to see what the new Trem guide makes of this one (though I don't imagine they will change it).

As I said, not suggesting this always changes the adjectival grade where well protected, but it certainly changes the tech grade and, if severe enough, might eventually impact the adj grade.

In reply to craig h:


Yes I knew that was the meaning of the name - I quite like it (and the route actually).

I agree it is HVS, and also that it is probably pretty much at the top of this - because it isn't 5a !

And again, back to my OP, I do wonder why the UKC logbooks show it as low/mid HVS because this must be HVS ++! to use FRCC nomenclature. If you set out on this one thinking it's a low to mid grade HVS 5a slab you're in for a rude awakening.

In reply to Pencarth:

Yep I think it was the 1983 guide that said 'a route for the vain as you can see yourself reflected in the polish on the first pitch' given VS 4c.

In reply to JonC:

I'm not sure what grade I'd give it - I wouldn't lose any sleep over the 5a grade. It is a pretty unsatisfying climb, though and its not one I'd rush back to repeat.

OK it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

In reply to JonC:

I remember one blankish bit which I got over with a wide smear/sloper and a high step to an edge still felt 5a ish

As for laybacking it the crack has good holds and the back wall is an easily angled slab there is the odd bridged rest but I can't imagine anybody trying to offwidth it. Certainly no easier than a layback.

In reply to JonC: it is probably a bit sharper than merlin direct or scratch arete if you want to benchmark it against other tremadog routes. About the same as striptease, maybe easier than Meshach(technically). More physical than many other HVS there, but loads of gear. First pitch of Belshazzar I always thought was a bit sharp at 4c, but has plenty gear and is short lived too.

I think it depends on your style of climbing more than anything else, some of us are thugs, others delicate technicians. Plenty gear generally means relaxed laybacking if you can leave go with one hand to put some in!

In reply to JonC:

Odd this, in that the climb left little impression on me in 1971, even though I lead that crux layback, except I do remember it was very polished (and we had relatively unsticky EB boots). I always comment in my guidebook book if I find something undergraded, and there's no comment at all in my 'Snowdon South' guide of the time, except that I've crossed out the 'Just' of the grade 'Just Very Severe'. My log book likewise makes no comment except: 'Good pitches but poor line.' It was very unusual for me to say so little in my logbook.

In reply to summo:

I'd done most of those (though not Striptease oddly) and my own view is that I think the crux move on Y'Broga is harder. In my book it's a touch harder than Meshach (led that twice in recent memory) - the crux I guess being that shuffle/stride right at the finger pocket near the peg. I would just say that's solid 5a (a rather similar move iirc on High Crag Buttress in the Lakes). I have no doubt that it's a fair bit harder than either Merlin Direct or SA. The Fang is also easier technically.

Unless I missed something (and I was feeling pretty steady on it in truth and enjoyed bridging up the corner and using small features on the slab), the crux sequence has no foot holds. You do have to throw yourself ino a pure layback on smears and most of these are polished to a high sheen. I think it would be 5a without having to contend with the polish. With that, it's a nightmare trying to force your feet to stick to the rock. On both my leads of this my seconds came off it at the same point and I've not seem either of them fall off anything else at that grade, or really even come close to it.

I quite like slabby stuff but don't mind powerful routes, so Y'Broga probably quite suits me but I do still think it's technically harder than just about any other HVS I can think of at Trem. Has to be 5b and, to be fair, with that level of protection, if it was really only 5a I would agree it might even be VS. I suspect those who think it is only 5a are capable of climbing way harder than that and can't tell the difference.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Maybe the polish has made it a bit worse over the last 40 years...?

In reply to JonC:

*off topic pedant moment *

"y broga" (without the apostrophe) means "the frog". I've not done the route, but I wonder if that's an instruction as to style in which in should be climbed?!

In reply to JonC:

Yes, could easily be; but remember, we had much less sticky boots.

In reply to JonC:

Careful how you interpret the Logbook entries. I don't go into granular detail about how I climbed it. Most of the time I just log it as "climbed" and if I want to comment about how well or poorly I led it, that goes in the notes.

"Climbed" for me normally means clean.

In reply to JonC: I think if it was given 5b, would people then start comparing it technically to routes like Barbarian and other 5bs. Either way I would agree it's a tough start to the day, if you turn up and 5a was your limit!!

In reply to JonC:

I see now that in a later, neater logbook (dating from late 71 or early 72, in which I re-entered all my climbs up to that date) I added the comment 'Not a give away!' - suggesting it took me a while to work out how to do it.

In reply to Rampikino:


I accept that but if you compare it to other routes of that grade at Trem (which I did before I posted), there is a pretty clear trend.

In reply to JonC: I don't know this climb and I'm not against upgrades but to keep the currency stable you need to downgrade something too - What's it going to be?

In reply to chris wyatt:

Best response so far!

I would probably downgrade Scratch Arete from HVS 5a to VS 5a. Merlin Direct might be another contender for the same treatment.

I think Meshach, the Fang and Y'Broga are definitely HVS. The aforementioned two, maybe not..

In reply to JonC:

Read my above comment from the 1983 guide, there is a limit to how polished a route can get!

In reply to Al Evans:


In a general sense, yes, but you may find that what were edges and nubbins, albeit polished, simply round off and disappear over time.

In reply to JonC:

Hi Al,yes,there is a limit to how polished a route can get;that limit is simply defined by a higher grade as friction worsens.Surely grades denote how much friction we can get from holds and how far apart they are?Y Broga is like Goliath's Groove at Stanage,just getting harder all the time.

Mitch

In reply to paul mitchell: Hi Paul
My point is doesn't there come a time when a route is as polished as it's going to get? I think Y Broga acheived this many years ago.

In reply to Al Evans:

my point is that some of the small edges are still in the process of disappearing! I agree where it's v slippy it probably can't get a lot worse but the edges/bumps themselves are slowly going.

In reply to JonC:
You done Octo on Cloggy yet, that is polished and greasy due to so many desperate jams on the overhang. You will like it, well protected.

In reply to Alun:


Notes in the back of the guidebook state that it was named after a frog was found on one of the pitches.
I tried this route last week, and whilst I wouldn't like to comment on the grade, I didn't find it necessary to layback- more of a slab climb with occassional holds in the corner.

Always had a bit of a sheen to it, I found it to be VS 4c in 1986 and 1990 and 1996, so it might be a little harder now. Plenty of gear, holds in the corner and on the slab...never saw why I should layback it (seemed to strenuous an option)

In reply to Impromptu:

But using your logic it should still be VS?!

Using my logic in 1996 it was VS 4c (no doubt on that score)...it might be a little harder now... yes...