UKC

This thread http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=412941&v=1 got me thinking. We all know that factor 2 falls are a bad thing, and should be avoided at all costs. However, someone posted that most belay device/belayer combos won't be able to hold a factor 2 fall. So, my question is has anyone here taken or held a factor 2 fall, and what was it like?

In reply to Monk: It was alright, I didn't die. Took a week for the bruises to show, my belayer ached a bit as well.

In reply to Monk:

I've held one with a direct belay on a rock spike. It was fine.

In reply to douglas:

Thanks for your replies. Could you provide a little more detail - how big the fall was, what device you were using etc. I am really curious as to how often this occurs and how serious it is.

In reply to Monk: I wasn't using a belay device. Just had the rope round the back of a spike. He went maybe 20 feet although that's a guess because I didn't look down.

In reply to douglas:

Surely, that's not a proper factor 2 fall though (although not one i'd like to take!) as your direct belay was effectively a piece of gear. Where you body belaying? Was it alpine? Was it a free-fall into space or was it a slide/bounce?

In reply to Monk:

For just one moment I thought that you might like to know but that sounds a little over-interested.

I fell little more than 6m. He would have been using some techy kit like a Reverso 3 but as a conventional device. His back was quite painful for a few days. My quads ached, which puzzled me until the bruises came through. One rope was cut through in the rock fall.

In reply to Monk:

Held one. Belayed to a few good hex's/rocks on a small ledge when leader slipped from approx 20-30ft up and left on a rising traverse. Gear held fine although I could have been a bit tighter to the system. I was pulled off the ledge and made a good mess of both shins. Leader had bruised ribs from impact with the cliff lower down. All in all interesting but not soemthing I'd want to repeat often.

Lesson learnt - gear placement good, but too much slack in the system

PS. ATC belay device.

In reply to Monk: I haven't taken one but I've seen one (or close to one). A friend of ours (who is a very nice but slightly ditzy girl who shall remain nameless here) was attempting to lead the second pitch of King Bee at Creag Dubh. Somehow she ended up going left instead of right at the roof and climbed out well off route into the broken rock where the old rockfall was near Men Only. She had just passed a peg without clipping it (beacuse it looked dodgy) when she ripped a hold and fell off. At that point she would have been maybe 15-20 feet or a touch more out from the belay but only at a 45 degree angle to it rather than directly above (with no gear in).

I would guess she took about a 40 footer (ish?) straight onto the belay. She ended up most of the way back to the bottom of pitch one having glanced a ledge with her bum on the way. Her belayer held her (though with some mild burns to his hands) on a BD XP and both of them were in a prety shaken state (her in quite a bit of pain) when we got to them. Amazingly though, nobody seriously hurt. The belay was a single point anchor to a sapling.

In reply to Monk:

Yes.
I won't go into details of the whole event or the whys to keep it short:

2-3m out so >4m fall.
Sheared a peg clean off.
I was braced, feet apart on a big ledge then I wasn't I was hanging looking down at my friend. It was that fast I couldn't tell you what happened.

I would advise never having one, it was savage and nothing like any other fall I've ever caught. I've always been lucky and I think it would very likely be the last thing you did if it happened to you.

Stay safe

Toby

In reply to Toby_W:

Oh ATC, no slack and no rope let out.

40 feet (>10m) straight onto the belay, very lucky no to rip the gear apart, she must have been skinny as well as a bit dizzy.

Cheers

Toby

In reply to Monk:

There was a big one reported on UKC a few weeks back. IIRC, it was Point Five gully and the best part of a rope length on to a couple of pegs and a nut. There was a photo and a report.

In reply to Monk:
I've only taken 1 factor 2 fall and it wasn't while climbing. I probably dropped about 3-4ft onto a system where the only dynamic component was a figure of 8knot and the flex in a 4" branch. Only winded myself and a bit of minor bruising but lesson learnt about climbing above anchors while working in trees!

In reply to Monk:

Hi,

Back in the winter of 1983 I was climbing with my dad on St Loy Cliff, and doing a new route from the ground, and therefore on-sight. In those days I wore Asolo Canyons, a non-sticky climbing boot. Anyway, I was leading pitch 2, and I climbed up to a scoop about 7m from the hanging belay. I had no gear in, the steep slab was void of any cracks. I placed a sky-hook on a feldspar crystal, just for comfort really. Made moves up and out of the shallow steep scoop. My foot slipped, and I was off. I hit the sky-hook off too on my way past. I cartwheeled by my dad. Luckily for me he took in a length or two of rope as I fell. I stopped looking at a spike of granite on the deck, head-first and one foot away from my face. The fall was about 80ft in old money. Got back on the route, and finished it.
Mark

In reply to M. Edwards:

I'm amazed that you had the courage to go back up. I think at that point I would have headed for the nearest darkened room.

In reply to GeoffRadcliffe:

I was young and felt indestructible in those days. I have since tasted what a ground fall feels like (more than once), so I take a few more self preservation precautions...Experience!

Quote my dad: "There are old climbers, and there are bold climbers, but there are no old bold climbers"

In reply to all:

Thanks for the replies everyone. It's interesting to hear that they are survivable, although it seems that injury is almost certain.

In reply to M. Edwards:

While this reduces the length of the fall (luckily in this case!) it also increases the fall factor. So you took a factor-2+ fall -- impressive.

In reply to Monk:


Well it would be difficult for folk to post if they don't survive.

In reply to the sheep:

It would indeed - see my comments on the other related thread! Still, the fact that there ARE survivors (even if they only make up a small proportion, which I doubt is the case) supports my point.

In reply to Flashy:

I just bounced at the end of the rope. I think it was my dad who was the most impressive on that day.

In reply to Monk:

The rock spike was the belay. I just held the rope around it and used friction.

Anyway, I think you're worrying unnecessarily here, Monk. A factor 2 fall generates less than twice the force of the normal falls I take pretty much every time I go to the crag. Obviously they're not comfortable but your rope is unlikely to snap.

In reply to Monk:
I held a 40 footer in 1967, hence pre-harnesses, pre-sticht plates. He was clear of the rock all the way, so unhurt. Belayed to a rusty old peg which mercifully stayed in - of course. I was on a foothold-wide ledge, so was pulled upside-down as several feet of rope passed through my waist belay. Still got the scars. Stopped him about 20 ft short of the deck. Hurt like hell lowering him the rest of the way.

Apart from that - it was OK. I held the fall, which was my job. You instinctively hang on for grim death.

In reply to Andy Long:

Very, very impressive.

In reply to Flashy:

Are you implying that the fall factor was more than 2?

If so you need to think about that one again.

In reply to kilner:

Just to clear a few things up.

Fall Factor = Length of fall / Amount of rope from belayer to climber.

You can not get above Fall Factor 1 on single pitch routes

In reply to Monk:

Climbing in the Gunks with a friends of mine, we were slightly off route and he'd built a belay from a couple of small opposed nuts and a small cam (green alien?), on a ledge just below an overhang. There wasn't much else to use and no hope for another piece, so I jokingly said "I hope the belay is good" as I set off to climb through the overhang.

I reached through the hang, and hooked a heel over on to a ledge above the lip. Pulling through with my left hand and starting to stand up, I grabbed hold of a horn of rock with my right hand which promptly sheared off as I pulled on it. My only foot cut loose and I slid down the "steps" of rock above the lip. It felt cartoon-esqe, like "Tom and Jerry" down a flight of stairs, before pitching off into space at the overhang, finally coming to rest about 6 feet below the belay.

In honesty, he had directed the lead rope through the small cam of the belay so it wasn't a true factor 2 fall, but he was very close to the alien so it must have been pretty close. I think my comedy slide took a lot of energy out of the fall, certainly the red scrapes down my arms and legs made it seem so. My friend was unshaken, and held the fall quite easily, he was pretty pleased with his anchor too. I think I probably got off lightly.

In reply to kilner:

I understand nothing about physics, but if a climber has 40 feet of rope out and during the fall the belayer takes five feet in, is the climber not going to fall 75 feet and the amount of rope at impact going to be only 35 feet? (disregarding various factors like rope stretch, obviously)

Would that not be a factor of more than 2? (I don't know; I'm asking)

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Of course.

In reply to Monk:

I held an over 2 fall once. Not possible you say but if you see the leader fall and, take some rope as they pass by, you have that situation. So, my leader's 30 foot fall was on to about 10 feet of rope - factor 3. The forces were enormous but it's a good thing I got the rope in because he fell head first and stopped eye-balling a ledge, just 2 inches below his head.

I did have time to get tight on the belay, which was probably crucial to the happy outcome of this story.

In reply it was my first time at froggat. we had just arrived up the path from the chequers.instantly a scream, we turned in its direction to see a guy flying past his belayer on valkyrie.his legs whipped up,arse missing the deck by a foot.they both semt pain free. happy in fact.

In reply to Chris Shorter:


And presumably accounts for your surname?

In reply to Monk: held a big one on a hard alpine ice climb long ago. Partner came off about 30m up a very steep (grade V-ish) serac pitch high on the N face of the Aig du Plan above Chamonix, ripped the two screw runners, and whizzed down the 60-degree gully we'd just come up. I was belayed to a single screw (in those days people didn't possess enough to double up) and held him easily on a dynamic waist belay. Fortunately I'd been able to place the belay screw almost vertically down into a kind of ledge, and had cut myself a good stance. Partner wasn't seriously hurt, but twisted his leg and broke a crampon so we had to beat a slow retreat.

Rob F

In reply to kilner:

I am implying that, and I'm correct. You need to think about it again.

In reply to kilner:

"Are you implying that the fall factor was more than 2?

If so you need to think about that one again".


One of the two situations where you can get a Plus 2 Fall Factor.

In reply to Monk:

The fact that people have stories prove that they are survivable, but what is the percentage of factor 2 falls that end in tragedy?
We can make educated guesses about the reasons for accidents, but only the climbers involved knew the whole story (if at all), and failed gear placements and such like will never be known.

There certainly don't seem to be many stories, which shows that people are lucky, well trained to prevent the situation arising, or not many live to tell the tale. I don't think it's the latter, at least in the UK?

In reply to Monk:
Held one at Wintours Leap - Arabesque.
I was seated, belayed to a couple of wires and an in-situ peg.
Climber 10 - 12 feet above me on pitch 2, no gear in, fell whilst trying to clip an in-situ peg.
He hit me in passing - kicked me in the head - thank heaven I was wearing a helmet, as he weighed 14 stone - and I held him on 2 9mm ropes, standard ATC.
I was pulled to the edge of the ledge (about a foot), due to the impact.
Some rope was let out in the impact, partly due to me being dazed, but held him.
Biggest problem for me was the whack in the head, as I was worried about my neck. My climbing partner was a bit shook up, and preferred to finish up Greta (HS) instead, so we went to the pub.

In reply to Monk:

When I was young and knew no better I once clipped into a lowish peg belay before the short hard pitch on Suicide Wall at Bosigran and not much else. My leader was famously impetuous, considerably larger than me and fell off a lot. Sure enough, he got about 10 feet up the corner and shot off past me with no gear in. I ended up at 45 degrees looking down at the sea with him dangling below me...

I made him put some wires in the second time.

In reply to Monk:

I was climbing The West Face in Great Zawn with my good pal, the late Ed Stone some years ago. It was a very hot summers day. I had lead the first two pitches and got to the hanging belay below the easy third. Ed came up and elected to lead through, and so he went on. He put a few pieces of pro in, mainly from a blind lay-back position. He was pumped from the previous pitches, slipped and fell. All his gear ripped. Hit me square on the head. sent me dizzy for a moment. He continued with the slack rope down over the Captivator roof, and into the black shadow of the zawn. He stopped upside down, legs twisted with the rope, and nasty rope burns. With his arms all bloodied and feeling a bit groggy, I hauled him up to the belay. I climbed the next pitch with no pro to make it easier for Ed , hauled him again. We went home.

Got one.

I was climbing a route in the Avon Gorge, don't remember which one but it was in the Main Wall area and the second pitch climbed a step before starting up a slab.

After a couple of delicate moves on the slab I slipped and, still in vertical climber position, began quickly down toward the step, the belay and a tasty factor two fall.

My brilliant belayer quickly stood up and placed his free hand (the other firmly on the ropes) under my buttocks and caught me like a comedy waiter.

In reply to Monk: Not taken one thankfully, but have chatted to a few people who have.

Interestingly there are a couple of things that have happened during the few I have heard about. First is that it is very hard to to instinctively grab for the live rope as it basically starts to very rapidaly pile up on the ledge. The result in this instance was a bad rope burns to hands. In others I have heard people struggle to lock off the fall, because the moment the climber passes the belay the locking off position goes from downwards holding a leader fall, to upwards like when you are holding your second falling off. Again bad rope burns to hands.

Sounds like they should be best avoided.

In reply to Mark Reeves:
I managed approximately a 1.7 fall factor so it doesn't really count, then again at 250ft perhaps it might just make the footnotes.

Best avoided.

In reply to Mark Reeves:

I had never thought of that.
Basically just prepare yourself for a big fall with your body position as you would for a second.

Ooh it's gotta hurt.

Long term problems must be a consideration.

I think I would rather be the faller, assuming no Desmond potential. I would have thought the force is in a vertical plane (just like a normal fall) rather than horizontal and down as the belayer would expect to take, can't be good for the spine.

In reply to NorthernRock:

Hi,

If you have your belay HMS & plate attached to your rope loop (eight or bowline), and not your harness loop/belay loop... then the belay anchors will take the force, with you in a more comfortable position. This only happens if you are already tight on your belay anchors of course. Another bonus is its easier to escape the system (see my post in the Great Zawn above).

Mark

In reply to Monk: A winter ascent of Nimlins Direct Route on the Cobbler in about 94 I think. I had belayed to warthog and a knifeblade on a good ledge. Olly traversed along the ledge back to the arete, went round the arete and started going upwards. He hooked something in a crack with his tool and pulled up. Said something pops out of crack, and he falls down the north face of Cobbler's South Peak. Fortunately the ropes ran along the ledge over the edge so although there were no runners in it probably wasn't a true factor 2 fall, but there was a inch long rip in turf behind the warthog, but it was still in to the hilt.

A mate held on a body belay what he reckons was a 90 mtr fall direct onto the belay when his partner fell off the top of the Central Gully on Stob Ghabhar. She tumbled down the pitch she had just led, flew past him and took off over the ice pitch below. Flattened points on her crampons in doing so but was otherwise little worse than bashed and bruised. Matt had rope burns on his hands from the rope going through a pair of mitts and inner gloves!

In reply to M. Edwards:

True. This seems where using the rope loop makes sense. It only protects the belayer though.

I usually clip one of the belay anchors as the first bit of gear if it seems safe to do so. Normally only one though (not the equalised point) if it fails then it may slow the fall and you probably have 2 more anchors anyway. Anyone have opinions on this (what a stupid question)????


Having said that, a factor 2 fall is going to load the anchors, coz there is no way being tight on the system, and taking a fall like that is not going to weight them, but your body would absorb the energy if you belayed off the belay loop. So it comes down to, body as ashock absorber, or transfer 100% of the load to the anchors.

In reply to Chris Shorter:

I'm struggling to imagine how you had time to take in 10 feet of rope in the time it took for your partner to fall 30 feet. Do you have very long arms? =D

In reply to Lurkio:

Interesting thred, I posted the original link mentioned which said that most belay devices would struggle to manage a long factor 2 fall.

Sounds like in the real world the belayer can put the effort to hold the fall, though it doesn't sound like a pleasant experience to say the least! Notice that a number (most?) of the replys seem to relate to off vertical rock (e.g. mentions faller glancing a ledge as they go down) - the effect of fricton in these could reduce the fall impact significantly. Has anyone taken a factor 2 fall on vertical / overhanging rock i.e. where the faller ends up hanging free?

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Also of interest is the fact that the original author of the link you posted has briefly posted on this thread too...

In reply to Ian Patterson: Yes mine left us both hanging free. As I said my friend was between 2-3 metres so 6 to 9 feet diagonally out from me (so 12-18 foot total fall). He dropped cleanly and directly onto the ATC on my harness which was fully locked with me braced and leaning back into the rock face.

His 70kg cleanly sheared off a peg and took my 78kg straight over the ledge after him so fast I wasn't aware of it until we'd stopped with me upside down looking down at him.

To those who held really big falls a lot mention rope burns and I think this may have saved you from a lot worse. I wish I'd somehow managed to break the fall by allowing some rope out but not sure if that would be possible without gloves & warning.

Cheers

Toby

In reply to Monk: I've not held one myself, but I've been there when it happened. we were climbing as a threesome, and the leader set off from the belay, and after about 6' and before he'd put in any gear he fell off. OK not a huge distance, but still Factor 2 fall. The belayer held him with a waist belay, and sustained an impressive but not too serious rope burn where the rope went around his arm. The climber was unhurt.

In reply to Monk:
I sort of held a factor 2 fall a long time ago but I am still not sure how I managed it: it seems impossible but it happened. Before belay plates were generally used, my mate fell whilst reachjing round the roof on the last pitch of Empire (Raven Crag, Thirlmere) when a jug came off. I guess the roof is about 20 ft above the stance? For some reason he had put no gear in. I was using a waist belay and he had asked me to face in so I could see the undercuts in the roof in case he wanted to retreat. Once he had fallen past me the ropes were no longer round my waist and I was holding them just by hand with both hands pulled together behind my back. Needless to say this wasn't slowing him down much. Things went into slow motion and I let go with the hand holding the free end and managed to flick it back round my waist and gradually brought him to a stop. He ended about 20 feet from the ground. I still don't believe it was possible but it happened. My hands were OK because it was cold and I was wearing Dachstein mitts. They were worn through. My mate had taken the flesh of some fingers to the bone trying to hang onto one of the ropes hanging from the stance (we probably stopped him between us) but was otherwise OK. By the time he stopped the fall would have been closer to factor 1 but it began as factor 2.

In reply to Monk:
Just a few pointers.

Even if factor 2 falls are the worst case-scenario which should be avoided at all times, they are not the guaranteed death people is making it to be if correct procedures are followed.

All ropes have an impact force rating, which is for a factor 2 fall. Single ropes are usually about 9kn, which should be withstood by a single number 2 wire, assuming the placement and the rock is sound.
Still, that'd still be pretty painful, which is why single ropes are used for sport climbing and single pitching, and when multipitching you should use double ropes, which have an impact force of between 5 and 6 kn.

When multipitching the rope should run throw an anchor at the belay as the first runner, which can be unclipped as soon as the leader has placed a couple of good pieces. That is so the rope pull comes from an above direction to the belayer, thus the situation of the belay device reversing is avoided, and the dynamism of the belayer being pulled up reducing the forces.

If a first piece of protection is not obvious from the belay, the belayer can be hanging lower below, and the equalised belay can be used as the first runner. Hanging 1m below the belay will give 1 extra metre of rope, which would change a 10m factor 2 fall to a 10m factor 1.6.

Real factor 2 falls are very rare, as it'd have to be a freefall from directly above the belayer, with no slack in the system, and directly to the belay plate with no slippage. Still, they'll be ok if the correct procedures are followed, unless of course, you hit something in the way down, which would of course reduce the force and thus wouldn't truly be factor 2...

In reply to harold walmsley:
Blimey, good effort! I'm pretty grateful for the modern belay plate...

In reply to Monk:

I belayed one.

I led 1st pitch and leader set out on 2nd. Obviously wasn't enjoying it and got a long way out complaining about no gear. I said it wasn't worth pushing it and we could ab off the block i was slung to. He then slipped and came out of the crack sideways as his foot had been jammed in.

It was quite slo mo and i am sure i took a couple of armfulls of slack in which was an automatic reaction. Although i thought i was tight to the anchor it still pulled me over the edge and left me dangling in space.

As i was setting up the anchor i was going to use 2 nuts but saw a massive block 3 or 4 metres along a ledge and just went for that instead and i'm glad i did.

I quickly went from thinking " He's going to die " to " I'm going to die " as the rope came tight. Massive impact which left me with deep burns across my right hand and an s shaped kink permanently in the rope at 16 metres from the ATC biting ( i measured it later out of curiosity ).

He had some bruising from the harness but we both walked off the crag.

Not to be recommended but my anchors are now always as safe as i can get them :0)

In reply to harold walmsley:
Good one! No doubt about it, belay plates took all the fun out of climbing.

In reply to Monk:

I held a 300' on 150' of rope so that should really qualify - and with no belays!

Winter climbing one of the easy buttress routes at the Dubh Loch (deep snow that day saved a life) a couple of pitches up and my mate couldn't find a belay at the end of his lead so we moved together for a while. Fine until he fell off! With no runners between us I saw him fly by about 10' to my left and thought oh-oh. I rammed my axe in and braced myself, good fortune meant that the rope ran from my harness over my shoulder and down to him and I was dragged down into the snow. He had fallen/slid a full 300'.
I reversed the previous pitch expecting the worst, he was battered and had lost his glasses - but refused to let me go for help. I lowered him down the rest of the route then we walked out - its a long way to limp. I took him to hospital, three crushed vertebrae and several ribs that had sprung loose!


Chris

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Nobody (that I noticed) is saying that they are certain death. The point is that the longer the fall the potential for injury (rope burns) increases dramatically as slippage through the belay device will reach the point at which the energy dissapated in the belayers hand will start to damage the skin. This is a well researched field and acceptable values for rope slip are considered to be between 2 and 4m, or alternatively an energy of 1800J.


Sadly this is wrong.
The impact force will be limited by the belay device and you are unlikely to achieve more than 5kN with any normal device.
Half ropes are tested differently to single ropes and the impact values are not comparable, a fall onto a single strand of a half rope will give an impact force roughly comparable to a similar single rope, under normal belaying circumstances with an unprotected fall you would expect both ropes to be the same length and the braking to be shared equally by both strands in which case the impact will be around 10 to 15% higher than if you used a single rope. (Incidentally ropes are tested to FF1.77 not 2.0).
However this is hardly relevant since the belay device will slip at lower levels than this anyway.
The fall factor itself is of little or no importance, a long FF1 will do more damage than a short FF2 as it is the energy which must be absorbed by the belayers hand which is the critical issue.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

>


This was actually why I started the thread, as on a different thraed someone posted some research showing that factor 2 falls are very difficult to hold on normal belay devices. I was pretty sure that people occasionally hold factor 2 falls, so I thought I would ask about their experiences.

As for your point about impact factors - I am not sure you are correct about half ropes - they are tested to have low impact factors with a 55kg weight on a single strand, yet in a factor 2 fall, you will load both ropes, meaning that the impact factor will likely be more than the individual rope is rated to.

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Makes interesting reading.

In reply to Monk:

Interesting to note that lives have been saved due to belayers using waist belays as opposed to belay plates etc.

It's worth remembering that in some situations, it may be SAFER to use a waist belay instead of the ATC or Gri-gri.

The waist-belay is not necessarily the last resort, but can be the method of choice.

In reply to Monk:


Perhaps you mis-read what I wrote, that is exactly what I said!
For the Beal Joker which conveniently is rated as single, half and twin you can see that two strands together give 9,5kN but as a single strand 8.2kN whereas the half-rope rating confuses the issue for those that don´t realise the tests are different with an impact of 6kN. This is why Mr Lopez´s advice is wrong and to be ignored. :~)

Jim

In reply to jimtitt:

Sorry, I hadn't read your post when I wrote mine - glad to see that I got it right though