UKC

Geological anomoly at Tremadog...

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 Ed Bright 15 Jun 2010
I was climbing at Tremadog today and was perplexed to find a vein of chalk/glass running through the Dolerite. It seemed to follow approximately the same line as Vector and certainly made for some interesting climbing.

But seriously, is there anything that can be done about the amount of chalk and polish? It didn't detract from the experience that much - I still really enjoyed the route - but it was a bit mad how slippery it all was.

This isn't a moan about classic routes seeing too much traffic or 'in my day it were proper E2', just interested to know if there is a solution? Maybe some strong acid...
 craig h 15 Jun 2010
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:

I think the least of your worries would be the polish and chalk if you intend to do Vector on acid

 ark05 16 Jun 2010
lol.. you call that polish? didnt feel like it had been made greatly harder. go and climb some limestone sport
brian cropper 16 Jun 2010
In reply to Ed Brighteldman: go and climb some limestone trad
In reply to Ed Brighteldman: The Polish have done us a favour by taking up jobs we don't want and they are a very nice group of people I'll have you know! :P
 Ian Jones 16 Jun 2010
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:
> I was climbing at Tremadog today and was perplexed to find a vein of chalk/glass running through the Dolerite. It seemed to follow approximately the same line as Vector and certainly made for some interesting climbing.

Are you sure you were at Tremadoc?

The last few hundred times I have been there it wasn't made of dolerite. Have they changed the rock since I was last there?
 Ian Jones 16 Jun 2010
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:
> (In reply to Ed Feldman)
> [...]
>
> Are you sure you were at Tremadoc?
>
> The last few hundred times I have been there it wasn't made of dolerite. Have they changed the rock since I was last there?

I forgot to add. Are you Peter Murrel in disguise? Like you he is a world renowned authority on rock types. Apparently Dinas Cromlech is limestone....
Removed User 16 Jun 2010
In reply to Ed Brighteldman: You need to man up. I prescribe a day at Stoney Middleton.
 jon 16 Jun 2010
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:

Did you use chalk? Your own, I mean.
 jon 16 Jun 2010
OP Ed Bright 16 Jun 2010
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:

I'm not claimin to be no expert on rocktype - just going off what it says on the UKC logbook page!

I know limestone gets just as polished and chalky, if not more but I'm just wondering if anything can be done about it.

And Jon yes I did use my own chalk but I hope you're not going to try and turn this into a 'you're part of the problem' argument because I know I am, and I'm not trying to say people should climb it less or without chalk.
 Tree 16 Jun 2010
In reply to higherclimbingwales: LMAO! Great mental image!
 jon 16 Jun 2010
 Dave Williams 16 Jun 2010
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:

Trouble is the crack on the Ochre Slab takes no drainage and is sheltered from driving rain too. It's been greasy now for years, probably due to a combination of 'polish', sweat and chalk. It's a vicious circle situation - more greasy and polished = more chalk = more greasy and polished ..... It also probably receives far more ascents annually now than it did 20-30 years ago.

I agree with Jon and can't see how it can be permanently sorted. Sorry.

Dave

PS As for polish on trad limestone routes .... <shudder>
 Bulls Crack 16 Jun 2010
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:
> (In reply to Ed Feldman)
> [...]
>
> Are you sure you were at Tremadoc?
>
> The last few hundred times I have been there it wasn't made of dolerite. Have they changed the rock since I was last there?

Is this wrong then? http://www.climber.co.uk/categories/articleitem.asp?cate=1&topic=15&...
 jfmchivall 16 Jun 2010
In reply to Dave Williams:

This is why I don't use chalk. There's honestly no need, especially on a route that's no more than UK 5c. If your hands get wet, man up and wipe them on your trousers.
OP Ed Bright 16 Jun 2010
In reply to jon:

That's a really interesting story Jon, you must know every (chalky) hold like the back of your hand! Interesting to see it so chalky back in the 80's.

And to jfmchivall:

Your 5c is someone else's 6b and another person's 4b. Be careful or someone might think you a patronising elitist...
In reply to Ed Brighteldman: i reckon next time its gonna rain for ages someone should ab ddown and give it a good dousing in water and maybe a bit of a scrub-a-dub-dub....then although the polish would still be there (Nick griffin wont be happy) at least ist wont look so ug-erly! psyched??
 Bruce Hooker 17 Jun 2010
In reply to jon:

You mean, gulp!, people actually use chalk on Welsh rock?

I knew things were going to the dogs but I didn't realise it had gone that far.... is nothing sacred.... mutter, mutter etc.

Not in the Pass though, eh? not in the Pass?
 Bruce Hooker 17 Jun 2010
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:

> Be careful or someone might think you a patronising elitist...

So anyone advocating clean climbing is an elitist?
 Simon Caldwell 17 Jun 2010
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Only if they try to limit the clean climbing ethic to below a specific grade (normally roughly the grade that they normally climb at!)
 M. Edwards 17 Jun 2010
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:
>
just interested to know if there is a solution? Maybe some strong acid...

For your last point. I guess your not suggesting the hallucinogenic variety... But I have experimented with the corrosive stuff for this very problem on polished routes. Results: It don't work It actually makes limestone even more polished than it was! Back to the drawing board.

Note: My experiments where carried out on a small rock in my garden, no animals where used or hurt.
 jfmchivall 17 Jun 2010
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:

> Your 5c is someone else's 6b and another person's 4b. Be careful or someone might think you a patronising elitist...

My 5c is everyone else's 5c (except in Northumberland where their 5c is everyone else's 6b). When I eventually climb Vector, it'll probably be one of the hardest routes I'll have lead. And I'll do it without chalk, because I don't like chalk.

The point I wanted to make is that chalk isn't necessary on the vast majority of ascents of British routes. If I can't do a move without chalk, I accept that I can't do that move and that I'll either have to get better or climb something else. When chalk was first introduced (before my time), a lot of folk wouldn't use it on anything less than UK 6a - it was considered cheating.

It makes me sad when I see an otherwise beautiful rock with pale streaks running down from every hold where chalk residue has killed off the lichen. It frustrates me when every hold on a boulder or a route has a white outline and a tick mark pointing to it - what happened to onsight climbing, and the joy of unlocking the puzzle of a climb?
 chopkins1969 17 Jun 2010
In reply to Bulls Crack: Can you supply a more exact description?
 Mike Raine 18 Jun 2010
In reply to chopkins1969:

t has been particularly dry in North Wales since the beginning of December which off course as exacerbated this issue, bring on the summer rains!
 Bulls Crack 18 Jun 2010
In reply to chopkins1969:
> (In reply to Bulls Crack) Can you supply a more exact description?

I could if I could be bothered but I think that covers it!
In reply to jfmchivall:
I also do everything without chalk, maybe its because my hands do not get too sweaty or my pants are very absorbant.

The fact that most of the popular routes have all the holds marked and obvious after a dry spell really annoys me as it removes that element of working it out for yourself.

The only thing that restricted my leading grade to E3/4 was my own ability and lack of training and I don't think that chalk would have helped a jot.

 Sul 21 Jun 2010
 jon 21 Jun 2010
In reply to Grimpeur ancien:

Yeah, I've scrubbed holds with water and a scrubbing brush on a local crag here and the difference is amazing. It's not permanent though, which is what I guess the OP was looking for. Same thing happens at Eldorado Canyon on the wall under the Psycho roofs (or used to) but it just gets plastered again.
 pec 24 Jun 2010
In reply to Bulls Crack:
> (In reply to The Purple Pimpernel)
> [...]
>
> Is this wrong then? http://www.climber.co.uk/categories/articleitem.asp?cate=1&topic=15&... <

I have to say this one puzzles me. I've read a couple of times recently about some N. Weish crags being made of Dolerite. I believe the new selective guide also refers to The wings of Dinas Mot and Tremadoc as Dolerite which is strange as its not like any dolerite I've ever seen before (and I have a geology degree so I've seen quite a bit of the stuff).

Dolerite is a smooth, fine grained, shallow (depth in the Earth)intrusive igneous rock, very dark in colour which typically forms dikes and sills which are relatively thin sheets of rock which usually display vertical or columnar jointing to some degree.One of the best examples of it is the Whin Sill, a sheet of dolerite typically about 10-30m thick which underlies much of the North Pennines and Northumberland. It forms the crags of High Cup Gill http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1168634, High Force http://www.freefoto.com/preview/1008-15-60?ffid=1008-15-60 and best known to climbers, Crag Lough http://www.mywainwrights.co.uk/2009walks/010309/010309.htm all of which are characterised by their prominent vertical joints, an absence of horizontal joints, a dark grey colour and smooth surface (not from the polish of climbers!)

Its a long time since I climbed on the wings at the Mot so I wouldn't swear it isn't Dolerite but Tremadoc is far more like the Rhyolitic rocks of N.Wales and the Lakes than Dolerite.
When I read about the Dolerite of N.Wales I did some googling to see if I was missing something but couldn't come up with anything so if anybody has a definitive answer I'd be interested to see it.
 sutty 25 Jun 2010
In reply to pec:

I seem to remember a route called dolerite dump on the mot, so maybe it is an intrusion.

i no nuffun about roks
Simon Panton 25 Jun 2010
In reply to pec: When we were producing the first edition of the North Wales Rock guide I consulted Mike Hammill (old school Yorkshire climbing legend now based in North Wales). Mike is a geologist and provided me with rock types for every crag we covered.

According to Mike the wings of Dinas Mot are dolerite, so are the Tremadog crags. He even reckons that Porth Ysgo is dolerite too (not gabbro as previously thought).

There are also various dolerite dikes in the Dinorwig slate quarries.
 davidwright 25 Jun 2010
In reply to pec:

BGS has the Tremadoc crags as "microgabbro". The Intrusion that forms Bwch-y-moch and Pant Ifan is clearly visible as a pink band on their online geological map.

From Wikipedia it seems that the difference between a Gabbro and a Dolerite is mainly grain size so it would seem its either a small grained Gabbro or a large grained Dolerite depending on personal preference.
 Chris F 25 Jun 2010
In reply to Simon Panton:
> He even reckons that Porth Ysgo is dolerite too (not gabbro as previously thought).

It feels and looks almost identical to the boulders in Coire Laggan on Skye, does that mean they might not be gabbro either?
 pec 25 Jun 2010
In reply to davidwright:
> (In reply to pec)
>
> BGS has the Tremadoc crags as "microgabbro". The Intrusion that forms Bwch-y-moch and Pant Ifan is clearly visible as a pink band on their online geological map.
>

Thanks for that clarification, I did do an online search for maps etc but came up with nothing. I was hesitant to dismiss the Tremadoc is Dolerite theory outright as although I did a geology degree I actually don't really think about it much when I'm climbing. I've never consciously thought about it whilst climbing there and I've not been back since I read it was dolerite to look properly. Going from memory however I knew that it has none of the characteristics of dolerite which is why I was surprised.

> From Wikipedia it seems that the difference between a Gabbro and a Dolerite is mainly grain size so it would seem its either a small grained Gabbro or a large grained Dolerite depending on personal preference.
>

If its microgabbro that would explain a bit. Although chemically and mineralogically gabbro and dolerite are similar (as is basalt), rate and location of cooling, which is what results in the difference, are critical to physical appearance and can result in rocks which appear totally different.

As an example, the Rhyolite of say, Dinas Cromlech, will have a similar chemistry to the Granite of Cornwall or even Yosemite but in terms of appearance and characteristics to climb on they are totally different.

If Tremadoc is microgabbro it should really be described as such and not dolerite. As anyone who has climbed on Crag Lough will tell you, they are definitely not the same!
 pec 25 Jun 2010
In reply to Simon Panton: I assumed you must have been told by someone what the rock types were, unless you are a geologist you would have no means of knowing otherwise. The Geology of N. Wales is rather more complex than the gritstone/limestone geology of the Peak and identifying rocks in the field is notoriously difficult beyond the most simple classification.

I actually looked in your book as I'd read a magazine article which suggested that virtually all the mountain crags of the area were dolerite which was clearly wrong. The wings of Dinas Mot may well be dolerite, I've only climbed on them twice years ago and they are quite different from The Nose and much darker which dolerite would be.
I'd be very surprised about Tremadoc though unless its some wierd doleritic sub type. The above microgabbro explanation seems more probable, I'll have to go back soon and put my geologists head on while I'm there!

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