UKC

I've got an MSR dragon fly and I'm able to get hold of ethanol and other such things (methanol, propanol etc) rather cheaply. Would these work in the stove without to much of a problem? If not any suggestions of things in a laboratory catalogue which would work?

Thanks,
Paul

In reply to PTatts:
Would think it would work fine, in fact might have to get hold of some myself. I reckon ethanol would be the best, might be worth an experiment

In reply to PTatts: I had one in 2003 and found that the only thing it can't burn is meths. If the new ones can or if they have some adaption the dragonfly will burn most fuels, unleaded etc

In reply to PTatts: Alcohol goes horribly wrong in liquid fuel stoves. It ends up squirting out, as liquid, faster than it burns so it pools in the bottom of the stove, spills everywhere and sets fire to the grass.

Naptha is what you're after.

In reply to PTatts:

Very generally, o ring seals that are stable with alcohols won't be stable with petrols.

If your stove is designed to burn petrol, aviation fuel etc, putting ethanol/methanol in it could damage it.

If your stove does burn petrol Look in the catalogs for "petroleum ether" and mix 30 % 40-60 with 70% 100-120 and you'll have a nice fuel that will prime well and not be to smoky

In reply to PTatts: we had a trangia multifuel burner in France and we were using meths. The problem was, the meths burned so fast that it was burning in the tiny hole that it is supposed to vaporise in, therefore, it didnt vaporise, didnt work and kept getting clogged up with carbon deposits. I would have thought that ethanol would be even worse.
It works fine with longer chain hydrocarbons such as petrol and diesel.
But then that's not the dragonfly.

Will

In reply to Dan_S:
Cheers all, sounds like something not to try!
Interesting about the pet ether, will look into it.

Do not even think to use methanol.
Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol

In reply to PTatts:

It's the mix I use in my Primus multi-fuel, and I've not had a problem with it clogging etc.

In reply to ylem:


Well, I'll agree that alcohol fuels won't work in a Dragonfly, and that methanol is certainly unpleasant and toxic. But then if you look at the Wiki entry for ethanol, it also has a list of medical conditions associated with it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

Methanol is widely used as a fuel for 'pepsi can stoves' among the lightweight backpacking community in the US. A common fuel source is 'yellow HEET'; a fuel-line de-icer, which is predominantly methanol. Provided you take appropriate handling precautions, you shouldn't have trouble.

In reply to PTatts:

are these things significantly cheaper than a bottle of parafin from homebase?

£6.29 for 4 litres

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?storeId=20001&am...

i also use a small amount of meths to preheat the fuel.

In reply to rallymania: 'i also use a small amount of meths to preheat the fuel.'

Or Coghlan's Fire Paste available from Needlesports in Keswick...less fiddly and prone to spillage

PS Alcohol-based fuel as discussed above is explosive in hot weather...it really is. Anything above 30 degrees...whoosh! Small leak goes unnoticed, then...

In reply to Nigel Modern:


Or one of the alcohol-based hand cleanser gels; look for one with alcohol listed as first ingredient, or with an alcohol content stated as >60%.

I've found stuff in 99p Store/Poundland that burns rather nicely, leaving a bit of a sticky residue, mind. It washes away, though.


Is it any worse than petrol?

Ethanol's flash point is 8C
Pentane is -49C
Hexane is -23C
Heptane is -1C
Octane is 15C

'Petrol' is a mixture of the low-end (~C5-C9) alkanes & cyclics.

I recall a very long UKC thread some years back when a very paranoid American argued for ages about the dangers of carrying petrol in Sigg bottles, quoting some incident with exploding bottles carried by forest fire fighters...

In reply to PTatts: if you can get ethanol out of the lab without The Revenue having a word we'd all be interested..but we wouldn't be burning it!
pet ether as above ought to be OK, but would be surprised if it's that much cheaper than paraffin IIRC. worked alright in my Zippo

In reply to captain paranoia: > PS Alcohol-based fuel as discussed above is explosive in hot weather...it really is.

Is it any worse than petrol?

Yes - well-recognised risk with Trangia burners in hot weather...it's smoething to do with its volatility and its tendency to spread out and hang around in a cloud.

In reply to PTatts:

Meths eats the aluminium in the MSR fuel bottles. Not a great idea.

In reply to Nigel Modern:


I must confess that I've never heard it suggested that meths is more dangerous than petrol, and you've got me intrigued. Any references you can give me for further research?

One of the classic problems with lighting BBQs with petrol is that petrol vapour tends to creep up the user's arm, and ignite when they try to light the BBQ. Sounds a very similar problem, but, again, I've not heard reports of that issue when using meths to light a BBQ. (BBQ lighter fuels are all heavier fractions, and less volatile, so this problem doesn't occur; same reason paraffin is considered a safer fuel than petrol).

In reply to davidbeynon:


Did you mean the bottles, or the Al components in the stove? The bottles are lacquered, surely?

Granted, the lacquer does get damaged and, indeed, leaks do occur (mate's Sigg bottle did just this, but over a period of ten years). Not a good idea when your bottle is under pressure, and it sprays a jet of fuel towards the stove...

In reply to captain paranoia: Hi,

No research and you're starting to make me doubt...

It's well-recognbised you don't refill a hot Trangia because of spontaneous ignition...I think that's in the stove literature.

Duke of Edinburgh (I think still) specify the Trangia but if I remember correctly advise about stove use in hot weather and risk of vapour...and this may be in the stove literature also.

Personal experience...a friend re-lit a hot Trangia stove and nearly blew himself up...large fireball...many years ago. The vapour seemed to have spread out in very still conditions in hot weather from a hot stove.

I have caused a wide flaring whilst trying to put a Trangia out in very hot conditions...ignited items including a bag of tea bags which were also on the table the stove was resting on. This was a lightweight Trangia burner being used in a windshield but without the standard cowling. I'm used to MSRs so I can handle flames(!) but that was scary.

Might be worth looking on the Trangia and DofE sites...will try.

I'm sure meths needs to be used carefully when it is very hot.

In reply to Nigel Modern: Nothing on the websites...

I think I recall this coming up though when my daughters did D of E about 10 years ago. I think someone mentioned the issue and I told them about my friend's experience. I hadn't had my squeaky bum moment then.

Have used Trangia's for years and I regard them as safer than gas stoves.

MSRs I similarly prefer to high pressure gas...seen gas cylinders go up on campsites more than once over the years and a another friend singe his hair changing a gas cylinder on a gas light by the light of another gas light! Ooops!...I use petrol lamps.

My friends aren't all pyromaniacs, honest.

No other info, sorry.

In reply to captain paranoia:

Not the MSR ones I had. I used one of the small ones for storing meths for a while & ended up with quite a bit of corrosion around the neck. I might have got away with using it with the stove again, but as far as I'm concerned it was a write off.

In reply to Nigel Modern:

I was under the impression that the Scouts and DofE had banned using the meths burner, because of safety issues as outlined above, and were specifying Trangias with the gas conversion kit.

In reply to Nigel Modern:


Ah: re-filling a hot burner is indeed a dodgy thing to do, either from spontaneous ignition, or simply from having a bit cloud of vapour formed when you pour fuel into the burner.

If you burnt petrol like this (an open burner), I think you'd have the same trouble...

I take it you've never experienced a flare-up (craburation failure) with your your petrol MSR...?

I had them regularly with the Sigg Fire Jet; burning nicely with a blue flame, then all of a sudden, it fails to vapourise the fuel, and you end up with a huge yellow fireball. Very scary... which is why I'd never use a pressure petrol stove in a tent, whereas I'm quite happy to use the little meths burners I make in the porch.

In reply to LastBoyScout: No, DofE specify the trusty Trangia 25 and 27 UL

In reply to captain paranoia: 'I take it you've never experienced a flare-up (craburation failure) with your your petrol MSR...?'

Never...I've used Whisperlites since the first year or so they came out. Don't use it inside small tents though, mainly because of (mostly controllable) flaring during lighting - scared my son when he was small with that and it did get close to the canvas, so I'm more careful.