UKC

can spa instructors teach how to set up anchor points for top roping out doors

In reply to phill bentham: Anyone can teach you how to set up anchor points outdoors, whether they do it for money and with insurance is going to be the contentious issue.

In reply to muppetfilter:

Actually, as anyone can teach for money and be insured, I would think that whether or not it is within the remit of the SPA that is the contentious issue.

Teaching anchor placement is not directly within the remit of the SPA. However, placing solid anchors is most definitely included. Personally, I would be very happy and comfortable teaching those skills as an SPA holder, and I would be confident that any competent and up-to-date SPA holder should be able to do that. An SPA holder is perfectly entitled to supervise an assistant setting up anchors for a group session so I don't see how this is very much different.

In reply to Monk:
I think I'd be comfortable saying 'this is how I would set up this particular anchor', but possibly not saying 'this is a good way you could set up an anchor'. Getting people to assist with a set-up and checking it is a little different to teaching transferrable skills which people can take away and use themselves. It's a bit of a grey area I guess, but if someone were to have an accident and say they'd been shown how to make anchors by and SPA holder I reckon there'd be questions asked... Maybe I'm too paranoid!

In reply to phill bentham: Yes. The MLTE state that SPA holders can work on SPA training, where of course they would be required to do this.

Luke

In reply to grit-addict:
SPA holders can work on an SPA training course under the guidence of an MIA

It is outside of the remit of SPA to teach someone to set up belay's

But as stated by others anyone could teach you to set up a belay, even someone who has never been climbing before. The question is would they be any good????

In reply to kilner:

<It is outside of the remit of SPA to teach someone to set up belay's>

So just which of the following limitations listed in the current SPA handbook are you refering to?

2.7 The scheme does not cover:
• general mountaineering skills, such as those needed to approach and return from remote mountain and moorland crags.
• multi-pitch rock climbing skills, the teaching or supervision of leading, (these are covered by the Mountaineering Instructor Scheme).
• access to tidal sea cliffs or any other location where escape is not easily possible.
• the gauging of a candidate’s personal qualities.

In reply to kilner:

'SPA holders can work on an SPA training course under the guidence of an MIA

It is outside of the remit of SPA to teach someone to set up belay's'

Which is pretty ridiculous when you think about it !!

Aye Dan

In reply to Dark Peak Paul:

Equally you could add where does it say teach the techniques involved in setting up top ropes including anchor placements in the prospectus and syylabus...

In reply to kilner:

Do you work for the AMI?

Just got an email from the MLTA that says this:

We regularly have queries about the remit of the SPA. Mal Creasey, MLTE Technical Officer, has these words of advice:

"As an SPA teaching leading is out of your remit, however there are several things you can do to help someone to grasp the fundamentals of leading and in particular placing natural gear.
You can 'guide' clients, i.e. lead a route and have them second, you can have clients on a top rope whilst they place gear which you can comment on or 'score' as you lead/second the route, you can find suitable places at the foot of the crag where you can demonstrate good gear placements and they can learn by example.You can also demonstrate exactly how you set up a belay at the top of the climb, as if they had led the route."

In reply to phill bentham:

Ok everyone, here is an extract from an email I just received from the MLTA (advertising the "Turbo SPA" workshop)...

"We regularly have queries about the remit of the SPA. Mal Creasey, MLTE Technical Officer, has these words of advice:

'As an SPA teaching leading is out of your remit, however there are several things you can do to help someone to grasp the fundamentals of leading and in particular placing natural gear.
You can 'guide' clients, i.e. lead a route and have them second, you can have clients on a top rope whilst they place gear which you can comment on or 'score' as you lead/second the route, you can find suitable places at the foot of the crag where you can demonstrate good gear placements and they can learn by example.You can also demonstrate exactly how you set up a belay at the top of the climb, as if they had led the route.'"

Especially take note of the last sentence. That should answer the original question - if an MLTE Technical Officer says it's ok, then it's ok.

In reply to DomClarke: Ha ha! You just beat me to it then...

In reply to davesb:

I'd suggest that all this talk of awards having remits is technically incorrect and unnecessarily confusing. I don't think you can have a remit with an award or an awarding body. Remits are a matter to be set between yourself and your employer or maybe your insurer if you're self employed.

In reply to timjones:

It might not have a remit, but it does have a defined "scope". See particularly 2.7 here: http://www.mltw.org/english/spa-more.php

However, I did note the other day that an organisation we both know well does allow SPA holders to teach lead climbing, and does not enforce any access restrictions (tidal crags, scrambling, navigation etc) either! And of course lets SPA holders judge the competence of others (having attended an in-house assessors training module of course)

In reply to petersheppard:

Thats a rather simplistic assessment of the policies of the organisation that I know!

It doesn't just allow any old SPA holder who walks in off the street to do these things. You need to be assessed in order to do the more advanced stuff. If a crag is remote enough to present a navigational challenge you need to be seperately assessed in the skills necessary to get there and back safely and to look after the group whilst you're there. In order to get appointed to a position that allows you to judge the competence of others you should have a level of experience that is way above a scraped pass at SPA before you get anywhere near an in-house training module.

I think all of these are good examples of why the level at which a person operates should be defined by the "employer" rather than MLTE defining restrictive remits for everyone it assesses for their entire working lives. You may have passed your driving test and you may hold a crisp shiny new driving licence it's up to your boss to decide whether you chauffeur his shiny new Rolls Royce or tat about in the battered works van

In reply to timjones:

<I think all of these are good examples of why the level at which a person operates should be defined by the "employer" >

And all very good points but what about a freelance whose 'employer' is the client.

Should he (the client or the instructor) take the advice of Big Mal or Big Mc (always assuming George is actually taking the more conventional view, kind of hard to tell)?

In reply to timjones:
I think all of these are good examples of why the level at which a person operates should be defined by the "employer" rather than MLTE defining restrictive remits for everyone it assesses for their entire working lives.

The ehing is in your example where SPA holders teach leading at a certain place, they undergo additional in house training! This means that it is not the SPA (and therefore MLTE) allowing them to do this but the employer, this is only recognised by their employer and isn't relevant to the SPA award!

In reply to timjones:

It may be over-simplifying things slightly, but check out AC 120905 and AC 120907, specifically the heading "equivalent qualifications", and also FS 120104 (page 3).

I've re-read it quite a few times, because I didn't believe it at first, and have come to the conclusion that you could in theory hold SPA, be appointed as an assessor, do module 25A, and recommend yourself a permit for leading and tidal crags, countersigned by a DC! All without further qualification or assessment from an MIA etc!

Of course, navigational difficulty only requires an additional permit if the crag isn't in T0 to begin with...

In reply to DomClarke:

The SPA can't "allow" you to do anything it's a only piece of paper for heavens sake. It is an indication that you were competent in a defined set of technical skills at a set moment in time. Like all qualifications the further back in time you were assessed the less relevant the certificate becomes and the more relevant your ongoing experience becomes.

I'd suggest that what actually happens is that an employer assesses your paper qualifications as well as your level of experience and knowedge plus your personal qualities such as group management and defines the conditions under which they permit you to operate. This is the only "remit" that you have. If you are self employed, it's your responsibility to define your own limits and ensure that you have adequate insurance cover for what you are doing.

In reply to petersheppard:

It would be interesting to see if it is operating that way anywhere. I know it's not going to happen that way in our county in a hurry. Is a DC really going to accept anyuone signing themselves off?

In reply to timjones:

Tim, I've dropped you a PM.

Thanks,

Gavin