In reply to rich1111:
> (In reply to jon)
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> What a load of sanctimonious bollx! So, jon, you permit yourself to sika holds, add plastic bolt on holds to the crag (!?), chip holds, add bolts here there and anywhere (many of which are poorly placed and should be chopped for that reason), add cables and epoxied bits of rebar to (existing) easy scrambling approaches, yet you give a sh it about whether or not people do tai boxing by laybacking, jamming or frigging (which is the method of the first ascent with wooden wedges) and remove bolts that were placed by locals years ago, bolts which were used regularly by locals and visitors.
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> Your ethics are ethics that you have imported from elsewhere: they are foreign. The only reason the locals have allowed you to carry on is that they are not such a sanctimonious bunch to make a big deal out of what you're doing.
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> As for Piola, even he has retrobolted his own routes at the envers and elsewhere. You know the local ethic: every bolt added is considered a service to the climbing community. You have just outlined yourself as an english "donneur de leçons" to the detriment of the relationship between the locals and the expat community.
Well Rich – congratulations!
That is the most vindictive, petty, inaccurate piece of drivel I think I have ever read on UKC. And believe me – that is saying something! I’ve read an awful lot of bile on here over the years…
Before I pass comment on the bits of your diatribe on which I feel qualified to respond, I would like to clarify something for you. My name is Neil Foster and I am a friend of Jon de Montjoye, having climbed regularly with him over the last 20+ years, both in the UK and on the crags around Vallorcine. I don’t live in the Alps, but I know the area well having done well over 100 rock routes around there.
What about you? You are apparently called Rich1111? What does that mean? Don’t you have a real name? Coming onto somewhere like UKC and posting lies such as you have just done, whilst hiding behind a pseudonym (or would you prefer to call it a nom de plume?) strikes me as cowardly at best. Perhaps if you are moved to reply to this, you might first grace us with your proper name.
Okay, having got that out of the way, lets see how much of your post stands up to scrutiny:-
Has Jon used sika to reinforce loose natural holds on his new routes? Undoubtedly he has, as is common practise on sport cliffs all over the world. He even named one of his routes Sika Path (I’ve done it! – have you?), so I don’t think he could be accused of hiding this practise. But crucially, he would only ever use Sika to secure existing natural holds. Many people use it in far more dubious ways (enhancing or even creating or adding holds).
Has Jon added plastic bolt-on holds to crags? Not to my knowledge, though I know of the odd instance where others have adopted this peculiar practise on their own new routes, on cliffs which Jon has largely developed (which may be what you are thinking of). In fact I’ve done at least one of them. Have you?
Chipping holds? You must be joking, man! Jon loathes chipping (and, as it happens, so do I).
Adding cables and epoxy rebar to existing easy scrambles? Well, I know Jon spent a lot of time, trouble and money constructing a short via ferrata to allow climbers (such as yourself?) access to The Zone at Gietroz, but that certainly wasn’t an existing easy scramble. Perhaps you can enlighten me further, as you obviously know the area so much better than me.
Adding bolts “here there and anywhere (many of which are poorly placed and should be chopped for that reason)”. Now I think you are really getting confused, and this utter nonsense needs to be addressed alongside your other completely contradictory comments “the only reason the locals have allowed you to carry on…” and “every bolt added it considered a service to the climbing community”.
Lets examine the truth for a moment. Jon has never added bolts “here there and everywhere.” What he has done is open a very significant number of new routes in the area (200 +), most of which are bolted. Most have been equipped from above, but recently he has opened several routes on Les Perrons ground up, bolting on lead. Given that these are 10 pitch routes, this is no mean feat.
The routes he has equipped on abseil are thoughtfully bolted and I have never known anyone (be they locals or expats) comment that Jon’s bolts are poorly placed. If you want to see crags with poorly placed bolts, come back to the UK. I could take you to several…
Your comment “the only reason the locals have allowed you to carry on…” is one of the most gross misrepresentations of reality I have ever read. Firstly Jon is a local, having lived in the area for over 20 years. Assuming you mean the local French climbers, the ones I have spoken to, or watched, have been universal in their appreciation of the selfless work which Jon has done opening up new climbs in that area. And don’t underestimate just how much goes into this. The time spent can’t be measured in man-days. You are talking man-years of effort, done not for money, but for the love of the sport.
Indeed, if you can think of any expat climber who has given more to the area in terms of opening up new climbs for all to enjoy, then name that person now. And whilst you are at it, you might like to confirm just how many new routes you have contributed to the area. And before you do, I’d like to predict it will be a very small number indeed (0).
As for the route in question, was it you who opened up that crag in the first instance, spent the time and effort cleaning it, and bolted the routes? No, I thought not. Actually, it was Jon again (and I repeated many of his routes when they were first done, before any other climbers had visited the crag).
But as you know, the wide crack wasn’t Jon’s forte, and it was an American, Craig Lubben, who was first to climb it. Craig was an expert on this sort of thing, and it is a matter of record that he was very upset to hear that the crack was bolted some time after he led it on natural (albeit slightly unconventional) protection. Tragically Craig was killed last year and several people were keen to repeat the route and re-establish it in its original state, in Craig’s memory.
As for why you should be so offended by this, frankly I’m at a complete loss (and don’t forget, it wasn’t Jon who took the bolts out – he was merely the messenger). There aren’t many equivalent naturally protected offwidths of this standard in the valley, yet there are dozens of bolted laybacks. Must every feature be reduced to that common denominator? The fact is that there are plenty of French climbers who would be more than capable of climbing Thai Boxing in its current state. Who knows, some of them may be planning to now. Are you going to deny them that challenge?
So Mr 1111, whoever you are. How about some answers, and whilst you’re at it, please don’t forget your name.
Neil