UKC

It would be be interesting to compare difference in peoples sport grades for lead onsighting, lead redpointing and top roping indoors and outdoors:

Mine are

Best Indoor redpoint F6c (done about 3 or 4)
Best Indoor onsight F6c (done 1)
Best indoor toprope (not sure but not higher than F6c)

Best Outdoor redpoint F6b (only done 1 clean)
Best Outdoor onsight F6a+ (not done many onsight)
Best Outdoor toprope (not sure but not higher than F6b)

Now I notice there is a difference and I suspect its partly down to the indoor F6cs I did being a bit soft (did about 3 or 4) but at the time I was regularly leading clean all the indoor F6b and quite a lot of the indoor F6b+.

I think indoor climbing is genreally easier for me because:
- the holds to use are obvious and come in standard shapes you learn.
- the bolts are close together
- during the winter i go to the same wall twice per week so get used to that style and those climbs. Outside I vary the venue more so forget moves and holds.
- I am more likely to redpoint a climb indoors than outdoors
- indoors commonly has less reliance on friction so is more predictable
- I don't sport climb outdoors that often and trad lead with a couple of technical grades in hand.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I can lead about half to one full grade harder indoors than out, but that's mainly because I do more sport routes indoors than out.

I can just about redpoint 7a on rock, but can redpoint 7a comfortably indoors and have even onsighted one, probably soft. Have onsighted plenty of 6c's indoors but outdoors my limit is 6b+ and they always feel desperate to onsight.

I reckon if I lived near Portland I could climb as hard there as I could at the wall.

I'm also a bit of a pussy. Falling off is easier on steep indoor walls but less fun on less steep sharper ledgier rock. It's all in the head, but I'm a pussy at heart.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I'd agree with your assessment really. Personally, I don't think there is any such thing as a true onsight indoors, for the reasons that you mention - you can clearly see all the holds from the ground, and you know what they will be like as you have encountered them on other climbs. Also the holds are bigger and more positive - I've never encountered any really tiny crimps indoors like you do on limestone.

I also agree with your point about redpointing - I live so far from the crags that I tend to go onsighting/very quick redpoint, whereas indoors over the winter I have spent weeks on one route. If the crag was closer, then I would work routes outdoors more.

Another major point is the wall and route setting. I happen to climb at a wall where lots of people complain the grades are stiff, yet I climb almost the same grade indoors and out (indoors slightly higher). If I am at the Westway, then there is a huge gap and I onsight miles above my outdoor grade.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

As best I recall and with the caveat I've not done many at any of these grades so there's a fair chance they were anomalies:

Indoor flash: 7a (possibly +, memory fails me)
Indoor RP: 7a+

Outdoor flash: 7a (graded + but 7a seems just about fair)
Outdoor RP: 7b

I've not really gone in for maximum performance indoor redpointing, I tend to mix it in with other climbing. Applying the same effort I do outdoors would probably bump me up a couple of grades. Outdoors I seem to have run out of talent at 7b ish, beyond this the gains will be slower and hard won.

They're pretty similar for me, the main difference being convenience, I get a lot more indoor climbing miles in per year than outdoor.

jk

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Not sure where this line of enquiry is going (i.e. I'm not sure it'll turn up anything very ground breaking) but here are my stats anyway.

Indoor RP - 7a+ (3 or 4)
Indoor Onsight (or flash, if you prefer Monk!) - 7a (2 or 3)

Outdoor RP - 7a+ (3)
Outdoor Onsight - 6c (3)
Outdoor Flash - 6c+ (1)

I don't top rope anything indoors or out so I can't contribute anything there.

I haven't ever really seiged anything indoors or out either. The longest I've taken is 5 goes, over 2 sessions to get my first 7a+. Other than that I've done all my redpoints 2nd or 3rd try.

Onsighting is the big difference - it's so much more difficult to read a good sequence and make changes to it on the fly when you're outdoors. I would expect to onsight 100% of 6c's indoors but out of the 15 or 20 I've done outdoors I was only successful on 3 occassions (and almost all of those I went on to do easily 2nd go).

I think indoor onsighting is probably closer to a beta flash outdoors. Case in point I've only ever attempted one 6c+ with beta and I was successful (normally I climb with my wife who climbs a lower grade than me so I'm usually the one to go first up a hard route).

In reply to CurlyStevo: I don't do "redpointing" or "headpointing" or any of that sort of stuff. I treat all routes the same, indoors or out, trad or sport i.e. I start at the bottom and try to get to the top without pulling on any gear or falling off.

Once upon a time I could directly relate my sports grade to trad that is to say if I was climbing F6c/7a I could also climb E4. I'm currently operating at about F6b+ and E1 but recently found that, after a bit of a layoff from trad, I can no longer make the comparison. I got a shock after climbing F6b+ regularly to find that E1's were causing me some problems. The biggest difficulty was that due to lack of practice I was struggling to find the correct gear placements quickly enough as my arms drained of all strength. I managed the routes but they felt harder than they should have done.

Al

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Indoor onsight: 6b+
Indoor redpoint: 6c
Indoor toprope: 6c+

Outdoor onsight: 6b
Outdoor onsight: never done one.
Outdoor toprope@ 6b+

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Indoor
OS - F6c
RP - F7a+

Outside
OS - F6b+
RP - F7b

So pretty close indoors and out I guess because I do quite a bit indoors in winter and quite a bit outdoors in summer. I top rope as part of my red pointing but when I've cleaned anything on top rope I think I've always done the redpoint. I don't take sport OSing too seriously, I enjoy RPing more.

In reply to JLS:
well it seems most people so far either roughly ballance out or tend to climb better indoors overall. Onsighting definately seems easier which I suspect is primarily down to the coloured holds and that feet often follow hands meaning working out the sequence is easier as the holds that your supposed to use are easier to spot and there is less differnt possible sequences to work the most efficient one out from.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Holds are mostly coloured outside too. Its pretty hard to find decent sports routes outdoors in the uk that dont have the path of holds cleary marked in chalk ready for you.

My redpoint/onsight grades are roughly the same indoors and out.

In reply to snoop6060:

You must climb in some balmy part of the UK then - I find the holds pretty clean most of the time after the rain has washed them. And just because someone has chalked some of the holds, it doesn't mean that they are the right ones to use. Chalk gets on the rock when you are feeling about for the next hold. It may not account for a massive difference, and I agree that a well chalked route is much easier to onsight, but I think it is harder outdoors.

In reply to Monk:

"You must climb in some balmy part of the UK then"

I do, its called yorkshire.

"And just because someone has chalked some of the holds, it doesn't mean that they are the right ones to use"

Its not just chalk though, the footholds on the classic routes at malham may as well be flouresent pink, they have a thick layer of polish on them. And they are the right ones to use!

In reply to snoop6060:

Unless you go to Malham or Kilnsey I'd say its not that common to have all the holds chalked.

Best EU outdoor redpoint: 8a
Best EU outdoor onsight: 7b+

Best UK outdoor redpoint: 7b
Best UK onsight: 7a+

Best indoor redpoint: 7c+
Best indoor onsight: 7b

I mostly climb in Europe (Italy, France, Spain), but unfortunately I can't climb outdoor very often, managing only 3-4 trips every year

I more or less agree with all of you re the indoor vs outdoor argument. However, I also think indoor walls are not the best for training for UK sport routes. Here I only climbed in Portland, where the technique required is often quite unique, and it's certainly not something you can train indoor. Think about the Cuttings as an example.

Ultimately, grades in Europe feel softer because there I find exactly the terrain I train on all year round, i.e. overhangs.

Last, but not least, bolting in Europe is on average less spaced and safer than in the UK and this helps a lot on the mental aspect which we all know accounts for more than 50% of our performance.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


I think yu've solved it there!

Now, which is more interesting and rewarding (leaving trad out of the equation)?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I'm probably going against the grain but:
Best Indoor redpoint 6a
Best Onsight 5c
Best top rope 6a+

Best Outdoors redpoint 6b
Best outdoors onsight 6a
best top rope 6b+

My thinking is that as I'm a lardy short arse there are more intermediate footholds outdoors, rather than the larger spaced holds on indoor walls.

Also I much prefer climbing outdoors.

In reply to snoop6060:

Fair enough. Certainly on most of the sports crags I have climbed at this is not the case though. I guess Malham and Kilnsey may be special cases.