UKC

Hi All,

I'm a climbing novice and new to this forum.

I've been climbing since this summer and I absolutely love it. I started out with indoor climbing then last week we went to Snowdownia for my first taster of outdoor climbing.

It's almost winter and i'm looking to try out Ice Climbing but I don't know where to begin.

Been looking on the net and found a blog about Indoor Ice Climbing in UK ( http://thegiftarena.co.uk/ice-climbing-gift-experience.html ) and it mentions a few areas where you can do this.

I'm torn wheter to try Indoor Ice Climbing or give it a go outdoors.

Should I try indoors? Should I go outdoors? and Where can I go in the UK that has a good outdoor beginner wall/route?

In reply to monkeynutz: Outdoor courses tend to be much more expensive and require you to own more kit, but they are generally excellent. Indoor courses are much cheaper and will give you a good idea of whether you might enjoy it, however it will only offer limited insight in to winter climbing outside. Indoor, I recommend Ice Factor in Kinlochleven.

In reply to monkeynutz:

do both.

indoors to get a feel for what the basics are, outdoors for (preferably on actually cascade ice) for the uniqueness of the experience - ice is amazingly unlike rock (well maybe not so amazingly actually when you think about it).

cant help with where to go, but definitly try somewhere where you hire the gear - ice is expensive.

you will love it, only mad people dont.
it will have its uncomfortable and dangerous sides, but half the fun is sorting thru all that.
the entire engima of ice is awesome and the folks into it are cult-like in the best possible way.

In reply to monkeynutz:

I had a go in the Ellis Brigham shop in Covent Garden, they have an 8m wall in a freezer at the back of the store, it was great fun!!

In reply to monkeynutz:
Best of both worlds would be to do an indoor session followed by an outdoor day, then you get the whole picture. More expensive but you'll have the chance to leach as much information as possible rom your instructors and see if it's something you want to pursue or not.
Can't really advise on where to go as I work at the Ice Factor so I'm probably biased!
Isi

In reply to Arcticboy:

did the same thing, great indoor wall with 3-4 different ways up, only about 6m but well worth the £50.00 for an hbour session. staff/instructors are really helpful and friendly, they know their stuff too, i think its cheeper after your first visit too, £35 rings a bell.

they obviously wont show you anything about rope work or ice screws or anything, but to see whether you like it and to pick up the basics; "good ice placement brings a tear to my eye" (instructor). learning not to "barn door" and the rest, ha ha.

there's a big viewing window as you climb up from the basment level floor to the ground floor in the shops, so people can watch as you climb up.

In reply to ryedubs:

How much?! That's f***ing nuts. You could buy a one way flight to somewhere icy for that much.

I don't really get what indoor walls can teach you. Top roping short bits of vertical ice isn't actually hugely hard for a fit person, but if you are climbing in the UK a beginner in the winter mountains needs huge amounts of other knowledge to be safe long before they need to know how to climb steep ice. And even if you go somewhere with top ropeable ice, you still need to get to the top of the cliff to chuck a rope down without killing yourself tripping over your crampons or whatever.

I can imagine indoor ice climbing is fun, but I suspect its teaches you relatively little about climbing ice 'outside'. To be honest, ice climbing isn't massively complicated. Swing swing, kick kick. Reading the ice and judging the strength of placements just comes with experience and from what I've seen artificial ice is nothing like real water ice, unless its sun-damaged end of season ice.

In reply to TobyA:

A one way ticket eh? .. what about gear hire, accommodation, instruction etc?

If you just want to swing some axes and see what it feels like an indoor centre can be a great place to have a quick intro - just don't expect it to be anywhere near as atmospheric or interesting as a day outdoors, or to learn enough to head outdoors on your own.

In reply to troglodyte:


I'm just amazed at how expensive it is, but it's a fair point so, actually 50 quid would probably get you a coach ticket to Fort William from most parts of the UK.


Join a club and borrow.


camp or doss,


get a good book and follow the instructions carefully.

It's what loads of us did. Having to buy all your own gear to start winter climbing could be horribly expensive, but it doesn't have to be. Probably the reason why so many of us start regular winter climbing at uni is because being in club is a huge advantage in getting round the cost/logistic issues.

In reply to troglodyte:


Just out of interest I checked. For 50 quid next January you can actually get a return from Gatwick to Helsinki (where I live which is why I thought of it) if you can pick your days. You could stay in a youth hostel or some other type of budget hostel (€20 a night or less) perhaps even camp out one night at one of the shelters with pre-cut fire wood and all that fun camping in the woods stuff. Use the public transport each day to get out to the ice climbing spots (although hiring a car for a few days would be less hassle). Wouldn't be a bad spot for beginners either, with top ropable or easy lead climbing - trees at the top for belays, no avalanche or getting lost on the hill danger. Plus you can go hang out downtown in the evenings. So wouldn't need to be massively expensive for a few days - perhaps the cost of two or three indoor sessions?

In reply to TobyA:

Is the Ice Climbing there good/reliable? Top ropable? I'd love to arrange a cheap week/long weekend trip to do some proper cascade climbing, but Rjukan looks expensive, as does Chamonix or similar.

In reply to TobyA:

Yep fair points if you are in the right area... I guess I'm showing my Aussie origins I had to travel a bit more to get on ice for the first time, and wouldn't have minded an ice gym down the road to give it a quick try before committing to travelling, buying gear etc

In reply to monkeynutz: I started winter climbing outdoors last year but have used indoor ice walls right through the summer. I don't think that i learnt a huge amount climbing indoors and it certainly isn't a subsitute for doing it for real outside, not to mention all the other winter skills that you need to know. But it was just a way to do something i love when the weather outside won't let you. As Toby said it is pretty expensive to climb indoors and you could use the money to just get a cheap flight somewhere and do it for real which is what i'd do if i had the time to get away. Basiclly if you have limited time and can afford it then it is better than nothing, but it does run a distant second to the real thing.

In reply to mattrm:


There are some good lines not too far from Helsinki, but it's not extensive and they aren't huge. The longest line at Nuuksio is maybe 40 mtrs, but most are more like 15-25. Between January and March you can virtually guarantee some ice somewhere and the lakes being safe to cross. Most years you can climb from December, but not every year. It's always hard to say how good the ice will be. How dry the summer and autumn are is one issue, and how cold or not cold it is, is another. Last winter was the coldest and snowiest for 40 years but the ice conditions weren't great - too cold - although I still climbed something most weekends through the winter.

Looking through the pics on my blog over the last few years and checking the dates will give you a sense: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/search/label/ice%20climbing


Yes. Easily in most places.

In reply to troglodyte:

i didn't mean to say the EB ice wall is better than the real thing, but my humble, begginers opinion is: for me, £50.00 for an hours tuition to see whether i enjoy something that could potentially cost me thousands (not to mention my life - you need some training right? - why commit to an expensive multi day course before trying a simple, local, taster session) to seriously get into is money well spent. its not only the fact that you get to have a go, even if it is only top roping, its they money you save by not taking other options.

if i had other options perhaps i would take them, as i agree £50 for what you actually learn is quite steep. however, unfortunately, i dont live on fresh air; by the time i have taken time off work (i'm self employed so i dont get holiday pay), paid for all travel, accommodation, food and drink, equipment, and then paid to go on a course after all the hasle of traveling half way across europe, or even just up to scotland (from the south east), £50 is the best option. i know (and most importantly, ellis brigham know) nobody is going to go through all that expense and trouble to see if the enjoy an activity. thats why you pay a premium for the taster session, thats why lots of people do it, and thats why i gave my offering of advice, to see if it suited anybody elses situation.

and anyway, toby, its ok for you, to find some decent ice you only had to pop over from australia, i would have to go all the way from the uk to, well, the uk! and thats far to far for my liking! ha ha!

In reply to ryedubs:


Don't worry, I didn't think you were. I'm just genuinely surprised how expensive it is for an hour.


I'm a bit sceptical though whether it is close enough to the real thing to give you an idea whether you will like ice climbing.


Not really, just get a good book and hopefully find some people with more experience than you.


I think you are confused. I'm not sure what you are referring to.

In reply to TobyA:

Think we're being confused - I referred to me not having a local option when I first got into it due to being in Aus.

Not really an ice climbing scene there - there are one or two spots, but not a patch on NZ, Europe, Canada etc. Getting into it through friends or a club and local(ish) ice climbing would have be perfect - but not really practical there. No ice gym there either... but if the was I probably would have gone along and spent $50 or more for a quick play before commiting to flying to NZ. Or before moving to Europe

mmm my girlfriend just ordered the Alpine Ice book... roll on winter!

In reply to ryedubs:

I found it a useful taster, and I loved the look of surprise on the family of four looking through the upstairs window when climbed into view!!

In reply to monkeynutz:

On a number of occasions I hae popped into EB in Covent garden for a settler - mostly when I've acquired some new axes or boots. It's only £20 if you bring your own stuff, and that gets you a belay bunny for an hour and a full hour on the ice.

I tend to get myself sorted and then play around a bit - from bottom to top with the fewest axe placements, one axe, no axes, traverses, reversing, placing screws, abalakovs on steep ice etc. All stands you in good stead

In reply to Arcticboy:

Definately, and as someone else mentioned, probably a good place to try new things out as you progress.

why im at it, i hope nobody minds me asking if you guys could take a look at this, me and the original poster would be very interested to here your reviews:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=423093&v=1#x6027310

its regarding the same thing, how to get into the sport and the best way of learning the skills needed to progress.

and, toby, if only me thread reading skills were as extensive and precise as your knowledge on this particular subject, i may have not confused a couple of posts. but dont forget, im only a begginer to the furom the same as i am to your sport.

In reply to TobyA:

£50 is the London village price, it is £20 in Manchester if you have the kit. I have had a session at the start of the winter for the last few years, as it helps get me ready for the limited outdoor ice that I get to climb each year. It is not the same but gives me the opportunity see what I can do in a safe environment. I would rather pay £20 to do this rather than £8 to pull plastic.

In reply to The New NickB: In the interests of balanced opinions Id rather shoot myself in the eye with a BB gun than go indoor ice climbing.

In reply to The New NickB: What is the ice like Nick? I understand that they pack snow on at the Ice Factor and then let it freeze. So is it quite soft?

In reply to TobyA: At The Ice Factor the ice changes over time. When first packed it is a softer snow ice, over time it gets more brittle. So when it is busy and the ice is being renewed more regularily it is softer (and probably thinner- you can still learn something about reading the ice and spotting thinner patches indoors). When it has seen less travel there is more brittle ice around.
You say that ice climbing is just 'swing, swing, kick, kick'. But most people swing very inefficiently to start off with and kick poorly (heels too high or low and don't take advantage of any features/existing steps in the ice) without coaching. In particular people are often very poor at standing up (either with 2 legs from a 'monkey hang' or, more commonly for beginners, they won't shift their centre of gravity over the foot they are trying to stand on and so they end up over using their arms).
Of course indoor walls teach you nothing about the essential mountaineering skills that go with approach and descent or even choosing your line on the day. But there is plenty to coach a novice on and its fun too.
I'd rather have a day outdoors any day but if that isn't an option (owing to season, weather or location) then there is something to be gained from a trip to an indoor ice wall for many people.
Al

In reply to monkeynutz:

The Ice Factor is well worth a visit. If you've never ice climbed before it will give you a feel for what ice climbing is like i.e. the techniques you use to climb on the indoor ice wall broadly speaking are the same as for climbing outside.

The main difference between climbing outside (from a technical point of view) and on indoor ice is

a/ generally indoors is very much steeper than the sort of winter 'ice' climbs you would do in Scotland - unless you are climbing water ice routes e.g. frozen waterfalls rather than gullies filled with neve.

b/ indoor ice is generally softer than water ice and is more akin to neve i.e. easy to get first time placements. On water ice this ability to place your tools and achieve good placements first time is a bit more problamtic and does depend greatly on the quality of the water ice e.g. very cold brittle water ice may take multiple 'hits' before you get a good placement. Or 'plastic' water ice will take first or second time placements.

Ultimately climbing real world ice in all it's varied forms is well worth getting into.

Oh did I forget to mention that the other crucial difference is the weather outside, especially in Scotland is generally... err challenging

In reply to george mc: Aha! Another breakfast browser eh George! I'm off to be 'challenged' by the Lochaber weather for 3 days! Al

In reply to AlH:


I admit I was being a bit trite, but I guess the point I was trying to get at was that especially in UK, it's all those other mountain skills that people need to learn to keep themselves safe and the actual technical climbing skills tend to get developed as you are learning the others. Perhaps now people are trying steeper water ice more quickly on holiday trips abroad so in which case they would gain from trying an indoor ice wall first. But, and it's a big one, I think for beginners it is really important to stress how massively psychologically different top-roping/seconding is to leading on ice. Far more different than on rock in my opinion. I've taken many first time ice climbers out over the years, and very few find moderately steep ice too challenging. Lots of fun yes, but not desperate. I took my dad out a few years ago, an relatively unfit man who must have been just over 60 then. He had rock climbed in the past, but not for 40 years. He seconded me up a slab of about 65 or 70 degree ice with no problems - although he said it was really exciting and good fun! Many coming from a rock climbing background don't even find vertical ice too difficult. But you look at the sticks they are using and it's shocking, the type of thing you would never trust if leading.

Your point is of course fair that there is something to be learned on an ice wall, but to what extent do you think that people are mainly learning just to top rope steep ice?

Having said all that, next time I'm in Lochaber and it is peeing down, I'll probably end up going to the Ice Factor and having a great time just like all the other "conditions refugees". I remember bouldering in my Scarpa Fitzroys (had neglected to take my rock shoes on that trip) at the rather pitiful wall at the Fort William leisure centre at the time - maybe 1992? I bet it's much more fun than that.

Great advice from everyone thanks a lot.

I've been doing some research about the equipment needed to go Ice Climbing and it seems a bit too much for my pocket this time.

I've bitten the bullet and even roped a friend in to join me. Purchased the £99 voucher for 2 through the blog http://thegiftarena.co.uk/ice-climbing-gift-experience.html in Manchester.

Some of your comments suggests trying it out first and that's what I'll do but from watching the video on the blog there is no doubt in my mind I'll love it.

I'll definitely start saving from now to fund a trip abroad to try it outdoors.

Any suggestions on locations in Europe for someone on a budget?

In reply to troglodyte:

If you pay them a little more they might arrange tip a bucket or two of mixed ice down on your helmet and down your neck.

In reply to Fawksey:

I had heard that you are a bit kinky.

In reply to monkeynutz:

if we have a winter like the last one you will good ice virtually everywhere. I climbed a fair bit if vertical water ice in the lakes, but I am aware of routes being done in the Lancashire quarries.

In reply to Fawksey:

Novel idea - hey might catch on! Trick is getting people to pay to view

In reply to george mc: my dislike of indoor ice climbing walls comes from visiting Xscape at Castleford many years ago. I picked my son up from Gretna and took him there for his birthday. He wanted to snowboard.

He couldnt snowboard because he had to have tuition first so I asked for him to be tutored. they had no one present who could. I asked if there was anyway however much I had to pay he could snowboard today? The answer was no. I said ok two for your ice climbing wall. Nope the ice climbing wall was closed today. Lastly, ok how much to go on the climbing wall? Its £5 a go. £5 a go? Yes its £5 to have a "climbing experience" tied to an auto belay. It wasnt a climbing wall as you and I might think of it.

Looking around at all the shops and cafes and bars I realised thast it just didnt deserve my money for which I work bloody hard and long. They dont give you enough or work hard enough to justify the amount they want off me so theyre not getting it.

In reply to The New NickB: The ice fall near Cliviger between Todmorden and Burnley was in and saw a few ascents.

In reply to george mc: so George. How much would it cost me to hire you to take me on something on the Orion face for the day?

In reply to monkeynutz:
>

If you can, try to cancel that and rebook direct with the wall:
http://www.vertical-chill.com/vcm-climb.htm

Will save you 20%

In reply to monkeynutz: look if you want to learn how to ice climb or winter climb, don't go indoors it will teach you very little, you haven't been climbing long so get an mic to take you out and hire the kit first, or do a course plas y brein or glenmoor lodge they have some of the best instructors in the world and are worth the price tag. winter climbing is not for everyone and it's harder than you'll first expect and the skills involved are more specialist than being top roped on a summer crag. Don't rush into it with a book telling you what to do, that maybe what many people do and what I did but I had years if rock climbing experience and navigation experience, and had many friends with experience to assist and guide me.

In reply to mattrm: If you're planning to come to Finland and do some top roping you should head to Rovaniemi... or actualy Korouoma, which is nearby Rovaniemi. There's fairly cheap cottage accomodations avalaible at the region + there's about dozen of good top ropeable ice falls there, ranging from WI3 to WI5. I'm sure that local climbing clubs (either at Oulu or Rovanimi) would also be delighted to have some foreign guests. I don't know though, if the flight tickets are that cheap as to Helsinki... and though there's several daily train connections Rovaniemi is too far from Helsinki for just a weekend trip. The season lasts from mid November (sometimes even earlier) to end of Appril... I think I've been climbing in early May once or twice too.

- Juho Risku / www.climbingextreme.com

In reply to george mc: you can take me climbing outside cant you?

In reply to george mc: Thanks for your email. I will be in touch