UKC

Hi

I've been doing some lead fall practice recently and am getting fed up with the figure-8.

My book (Freedom of the Hills) mentions the bowline for seconding but not leading. Is it safe/suitable for leading? What about the alpine butterfly?

cheers, Lewis

In reply to lewiz: not the alpine butterfly! I use a yosemitie bowline also known as a technical bowline, I add a stopper knot to both though apparently they're not required.

The important thing is, get someone who knows, to show you how to tie it and to check you're tying it right!

In reply to lewiz: How much fall practice do you need? A couple of goes is enough surely!
Bowlines ok, but I always use a fig 8 - you'll find everyone has their preferences.

In reply to lewiz:

A lot of sport climbers use a bowline as it is easier to untie after repeated falls. If it is tied correctly (with stopper) it is entirely safe, so I'm somewhat surprised by the suggestion your book gives to the contrary.

In reply to lewiz: Bowline but a stopper knot is essential. It is worth being a little cautious however. I have used one regularly for many years with no issues but noticed recently that some newish ropes seem to be a little more inclined to loosen off.

Al

In reply to lewiz: Of course a bowline is safe,and a lot better than a figure of eight. If you have a fall on a double rope, in real life not on a climbing wall, you may need to untie one rope to extricate yourself. A bowline is a lot easier to untie.

In reply to lewiz:

I use a double bowline with double overhand stopper knot as standard knot to tie in with when sport or indoor climbing now. If you cinch it nice and snug it seems unlikely to go anywhere, leaves a low profile on the harness and it is nice and easy to untie even when you've been taking wingers on it.

There are horror stories around about bowlines untying themselves however and obviously you need to make your own assessment of safety blah blah blah.

In reply to Winterbotty:


By extension - why bother buying a fingerboard - I mean how many deadhangs do you need to do? A couple is enough surely?

In reply to lewiz:

Stoppered bowline is fine, just make sure you get it right.
jk

In reply to lewiz: Try a figure nine or ten. Same as the figure 8 but loop it round a half turn or tun before threading back through. They are stronger as the bend radius is greater. If that does not work try rethreading the tail on a figure 8. You end up with something like a rope join with a loop. Mainly for towing I've included a krab in the knot. ONce tight you can slip it out and it gives you a bit of room to untie.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5006560_tie-figure-nine-knot.html
http://www.cavediggers.com/vertical/3KNOTS.pdf

In reply to lewiz: the book probably says the bowline (without a stopper) is not suitable for leading as the constant weighting and unweighting can make it work loose whereas using it for seconding, the rope should generally remain tight throughout, though a bowline tied with a stopper is more than secure for leading (I prefer the yosemite finish bowline).

UKC has your solution.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Who climbs with a tight rope on lead or 2nd? And who would ever even bother mentioning climbing on an unstoppered bowline, you only need look at them funny for them to come undone.

I don't mean to be harsh but I suspect much more likely Lewiz is simply reading more (or less) into the text of his book than was originally intended.

jk

In reply to lewiz:
I've used this variation on the re-threaded bowline for years on ropes from 8.5 to 10.5mm. Nice compact knot, doesn't slacken off, and easy to untie after a fall (the main point of the article)
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/ro/www/ClimbingClubatUIUC/bowline.html

Cheers
Andy

In reply to lewiz:

Bowline with one (maybe two - depending how paranoid you are)stoppers butted up to the knot. Anything else seems a bit OTT.

A not so obvious advantage of the bowline over the fig 8 was accidentally demonstrated to me the other week when someone tried to pull their climbing rope down with a fig 8 still tied in it !

Thanks for the many great responses. I suspect I did read more into the book (as it specifically mentioned bowline for seconding and not leading) than I might have done. But better safe than sorry

In reply to lewiz:

These days, I always use a double bowline with either a single/double stopper (for ease of undoing, after falling.)

In reply to lewiz: Double bowline with stopper, yes pls

In reply to lewiz: hi I agree, a figure of 9 is good to drop on!

In reply to Winterbotty:
How much fall practice do you need? A couple of goes is enough surely!

Getting rid of fear of falling takes hundreds to thousands of falls.
James

In reply to cmgcmg:

I thought of this but you can't really rethread them (can you?) so need to use a biner, which is not idea for falling practice.

Slightly off-topic now but while searching for some good Yosemite double bowline instructions I found this:

youtube.com/watch?v=EKglxeEFHaQ&

Not sure whether to laugh or cry. The book at the bottom of the frame is a nice touch too.

In reply to James Oswald:


Really, that many? That's a lot of falls!
jk

In reply to jkarran:

And a lot of ropes !

In reply to GrahamD: I don't get this practicing falling. I would rather save my ropes for the real thing.

Al

In reply to tradlad:

A sacrificial wall rope costs like £40 and if it's a decent ten mil then will actually take a surprising amount of punishment.

Personally I find being comfortable with falling makes a massive, massive difference to my climbing but of course YMMV. Many of those who don't 'get' the point of falling practice are either naturally unfazed by climbing right at their limit with massive whipper potential, or mostly climb well inside their limit and seldom fall off.

My experience of it though is that you do need to do it a lot and regularly for it to be very effective, though if you redpoint a lot then you end up clocking up lead falls while working routes so it doesn't take dedicated practice.

In reply to jkarran:
I thought that to. Dave Macleod certainly thinks so!
James

In reply to lewiz: is it really that much effort to undo a figure eight?
I'm a big guy, so when I fall, (especially on skinny ropes) the knot ends up pretty damn tight... but Im more than willing to put up with 30 seconds of struglling with the knot for the simplicity and reliability of the figure eight.

I dont think Id bother complicating things unless I was a fairly serious sport climber...

In reply to Steeve:

With a bit of practice a bowline is simpler than a FoE.

In reply to lewiz:


Yes

No, this is totally unsuitable: intended for tying in mid-rope eg on a glacier.

In reply to lewiz Use a figure of nine, its just as strong as a figure of 8 but does come undone a little better

In reply to Steeve:
"is it really that much effort to undo a figure eight? "

Lots, sometimes. Especially when you're pumped. I've spent at least ten minutes trying to undo one!! Maybe I'm weak though
James

In reply to James Oswald:

Then on the 1001st your gear rips and you deck out